The Dog Whisperer

ckarsenal

anyone watch this programme where Cesar Milan's shows methods of creating obedient dogs that acknowledge you as a pack leader and they become the followers. I find the show interesting but as I dont own a dog myself I'm interested in people 's opinions on the techniques he uses

cowzerp

i've used the techniques and they work better than anything i've ever seen before-its just dog psychology rather than dog training, a trained dog can still be a domineering dog, not something you want around kids or dog fearing people. some people think its about hurting the animal but its not at all, its just blocking its mind from negative situations-mostly done by making a noise that the dog associates with discipline. my dogs are a pleasure and are very well behaved..

stevoman

meh, i dont know. IMO dog whispering = common sense.

carwash_2006

I don't stand with these dominance theory methods at all. One of these days he is going to get into trouble when a dog stands up to him.

Positive reinforcement using rewards for the dog create a much happier bond between dog and owner that can achieve all and more that breaking a dogs spirit can do. Pretty much all these "new" training methods have been around for thousands of years, he is just another person who is dressing a method up and calling it his own.

Dogs do not need to be bullied into doing what their owners want. Yes you should have a firm voice for letting the dog know that you are serious, same as you might for your kids. Dogs will behave in a way that gets them what they want, make it worth the dogs while to do what you want and he will think it's what he wants too.

kerrysgold

I've never seen it but is it how he bullies the dogs/shouts at them to get them to do what he wants?

personally I think getting the dog to do something and then rewarding it when it does works fine. i.e. "sit" *dog sits* reward.

MsFifers

I don't really think he bullies the dogs - he just shows the owners how to block bad behaviour. He seems to be able to get fearful dogs to be more confident as well - so its hardly just about dominance.

Usually the owners are mollycoddling the dogs to an extreme!

cowzerp

He basically treats them the way the pack would in the wild, he makes viscious dogs friendly and scared dogs confident, this is done by just been calm and assertive, not shouting-thats the opposite of what he preaches! when he is telling the dog of he gives it a tiny prod with his finger which mimicks a bite, no pain, just association with discipline,

he has a pack of about 40 dogs and half are pitbulls and there all the happiest looking dogs and well behaved too, this fella saves dogs from been put to sleep with his methods.

he does not train dogs, he just gets them back to been dogs instead of been confused humanised dogs, these are the dangerous dogs. he also gives affection once the dog is in a calm mind, giving affection when the dog is not calm just reinforces its condition.

padi89

I have viewed it a good few times, not once have i watched him bully or shout at a dog.He seems to have great success with what he does and if he saves a few dogs here and there from being abandoned its great.Im not too fond myself of dog training with treats all the time, its OK i guess initially but i think praise or rewarding with play is a better idea.Anyway, everyone has their own methods as to what works best for them, as long as no unessecary physical force is used its OK with me.

Killme00

While i would not normally quote wiki the folloWing is true

Critics
Cesar has several critics. Despite his results, some view his methods as inhumane. Among his methods are quick leash corrections, quick assertive touches, and walks to drain energy. One controversial method he has made popular is the "alpha roll over" where he physically rolls a dog on its back. Animal behavior expert Patricia McConnell writes in her book The Other End of The Leash, "Well-socialized, healthy dogs don't pin other dogs to the ground. . . . Within their social framework, you're acting like a lunatic." (p. 138)

Dr. Nicholas Dodman, the director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at the Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine of Tufts University, has said "Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways." [20] In a February 23, 2006, New York Times article, Dr. Dodman says of Millan's show, "My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."[6]

Jean Donaldson, the San Francisco SPCA Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers states, "Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like whispering for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable." [21]

Dr. Ian Dunbar, Director of the Center for Applied Animal Behavior in Berkeley says, "He has nice dog skills, but from a scientific point of view, what he says is, well ... different," says Dunbar. "Heaven forbid if anyone else tries his methods, because a lot of what he does is not without danger." [22]

On September 6, 2006, the American Humane Association issued a press release condemning Millan's tactics as "inhumane, outdated, and improper" and called on the National Geographic Channel to cease airing the program immediately. [23]

In October 2006, the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants wrote a letter to the National Geographic Channel regarding concerns "that the program may lead children to engage in unsafe behaviors." The Association called for a change in the program's rating of TV-G. [24]

MsFifers

Well as they say at the start of each show ... "Dont try these techniques at home without the guidance of a professional".

Do you not think the above post is a bit OTT Killme00? It makes it sound as if he is an animal abuser!

ckarsenal

i wonder how much extra work goes into the dogs which is not shown on air. Surely you cant change an aggressive dog just like that overnight. He eems to preach the exact same techniques for all dogs on the show i.e never let them walk in front, never let them leave house first etc. This is obviously repeated over a number of weeks for it to have any effect on the dogs.
If only i could use the same techniques for my cat at home

Killme00

MsFifers wrote: »

Do you not think the above post is a bit OTT Killme00? It makes it sound as if he is an animal abuser!

I wont argue the whys and wherefores of his techniques but if you are going to praise him you should be aware of what his peers think of him. This could be jealousy but alot of what they say makes sense.

Goffie

The guy is on a power trip - look at the the intro to the programme, it's laughable!

Cowzerp-you never answered my question about my westie attacking the telly (see previous post). I asked you for details...how would the great Cesar cope with it? A choke chain perhaps?

My fella thinks an alpha roll is play!

tonym

my westie went mad at the tv i tried on of ceacers technics and it worked i think that he has a great understanding of dogs there is an english women name escapes me she has the same sort of ideas and it works if a dog thinks alpha roll is play ur not doing it properly

Loomis

carwash_2006 wrote: »

I don't stand with these dominance theory methods at all. One of these days he is going to get into trouble when a dog stands up to him.

Positive reinforcement using rewards for the dog create a much happier bond between dog and owner that can achieve all and more that breaking a dogs spirit can do. Pretty much all these "new" training methods have been around for thousands of years, he is just another person who is dressing a method up and calling it his own.

Dogs do not need to be bullied into doing what their owners want. Yes you should have a firm voice for letting the dog know that you are serious, same as you might for your kids. Dogs will behave in a way that gets them what they want, make it worth the dogs while to do what you want and he will think it's what he wants too.

I've watched him a good few times and not once have I seen him bully a dog and never ever raised his voice.
There was one episode where he brought two dogs into his pack where one was always aggressive and hence the reason the woman came on the show. Within a few minutes he snarled and started biting/fighting with one of Cesar's dogs. You're told to never put your hand in between fighting dogs but how he managed them was amazing. He literally tapped then on the side of the neck, between the top of the shoulder and just below the ear, and both dogs stopped right away. It was crazy. He explained how he pointed his hand so that his thumb and fingers mimicked a dogs mouth and how this would be used by a pack leader and that's the reason they stopped. Again he didn't raise his voice nor was his touch remotely forceful or painful to the dogs

Loomis

Goffie wrote: »

The guy is on a power trip - look at the the intro to the programme, it's laughable!

Cowzerp-you never answered my question about my westie attacking the telly (see previous post). I asked you for details...how would the great Cesar cope with it? A choke chain perhaps?

My fella thinks an alpha roll is play!

Power trip cause of the intro? Haven't seen much American Tv have you? That's Americans being Americans tbh

texas star

I think he is brilliant and record the programme everyday.I really do think he know dogs.

cowzerp

Goffie wrote: »

Cowzerp-you never answered my question about my westie attacking the telly (see previous post). I asked you for details...how would the great Cesar cope with it? A choke chain perhaps?

My fella thinks an alpha roll is play!

Your fella thinks he is the alpha full stop, this is potentially dangerous and causes bad behaviour such as attacking tele's, these are the type of domineering dogs that attack kids an all-start letting the dog know who's alpha and the behaviour will stop (watch the show to see how humanely)

Morganna

I think he is very good ,he knows dogs .

lakes

i watch it & sometimes it seems to good to be true,the fact that within 2 mins he can control a dog! I was on another forum on another website & the people thier reckoned that he used electric shocks wit the dogs & that they wouldnt show this on tv! they reckon that when he says psst that this gives the impression to the dog of the electric buzz from the collar & frightens the s**t of them! when i try to use psst wit my dog or any dog they just look at me like im mad!

mydarkstar

tonym wrote: »

there is an english women name escapes me she has the same sort of ideas and it works if a dog thinks alpha roll is play ur not doing it properly

Victoria Stilwell ("It's Me Or The Dog") is the one you mean I think.
I much prefer her approach, it's the same kinda thing as Cesar but she seems a lot less agressive in her manner. I don't like watching Cesar especially when he pins the dogs to the ground in that alpha roll.

Puddleduck

mydarkstar wrote: »

Victoria Stilwell ("It's Me Or The Dog") is the one you mean I think.
I much prefer her approach, it's the same kinda thing as Cesar but she seems a lot less agressive in her manner. I don't like watching Cesar especially when he pins the dogs to the ground in that alpha roll.

or do you mean jan fennell the dog listener?

Cesar is good, alot of its sensationalised for tv using all these terms over and over again as some kind of mantra trademark, but alot of what he does mimics what dogs do naturally to each other, although I dont agree with his use of choke chains.

lakes

just look d,at this & tell me if you stil have same opinion that cesar is goodhttp://www.seattledogs.com/seattledogsdiscussionarchive_1_Cesar.htm,

lakes

just look d,at this & tell me if you stil have same opinion that cesar is good http://www.seattledogs.com/seattledogsdiscussionarchive_1_Cesar.htm,

MsFifers

The thing about the Cesar critics is - I really don't recognise the show from their descriptions of it.

I only saw him put a shock collar on a dog once in the show - and it was for a dog on a farm that kept trying to attack the tractor tyres when it was moving. I don't like the idea of shock collars, but I could see the rational for using one in that case, as the dog had already been run over by the tractor and every other training method had failed to keep the dog at a safe distance.

I've only seen him use the alpha roll on dogs that are nipping, biting or intimidating their owners and others. The only time I've seen him put a dog on a treadmill is if it lives in an area where its too hot to bring a dog for a walk.

I don't know - it seems v. harsh criticism of him - but then again if that case about the dog being injured at his Centre is true then its all a bit scary.

padi89

lakes wrote: »

I was on another forum on another website & the people thier reckoned that he used electric shocks wit the dogs & that they wouldnt show this on tv! they reckon that when he says psst that this gives the impression to the dog of the electric buzz from the collar & frightens the s**t of them!

Speculation of the highest order.

campervan

carwash_2006 wrote: »

I don't stand with these dominance theory methods at all. One of these days he is going to get into trouble when a dog stands up to him.

I cant imagine a dog 'standing up' to anyone, its a very funny image though! they could have a little placard with a protest message...:p

seriously though, i think its true pack/leader behaviour that he carries out with the dogs he works on, he rarely uses shock collars or choke chains and he doesnt over-use treats or praise which is good i think. 'dominance theory methods' - dominance is what the dog would receive in a pack, its not necessarily a negative idea, and at the end of the day, the owner really should be the 'dominant' leader over their dog. Its more respect than anything else, people treat their dogs too much like humans and then they walk all over them. love and care is one thing but doggy clothes?- now that freaks me out!

cotton

he rarely uses shock collars or choke chains

He nearly always uses prong collars on the larger breeds.

Lauragoesmad

Some dogs need the dominance aproach. My Dad's friend breeds boxers and one of his guys who is obviously not neutered tried to pin him against the wall in his kitchen. Before that he never used dominance training with any of his other dogs but with Keizer he had to. He is fine now but if he had not taken the dominant aproach when the first incident happened, that dog would have tried to walk all over him. Dogs are like people, they're all very different and respond to training based on their own personalities.
I do not agree with putting dogs on threadmills to tire them out though. Stop being lazy and go to the park with your dog!!

cowzerp

cotton wrote: »

He nearly always uses prong collars on the larger breeds.

Actually he states that he uses the method that the owner uses so that the training is the same as when he is not there, he does not decide what the owner uses, and the treadmill thing is only if people cant walk the dogs, he always reccomends real walking as the best tool to bring a dog back to nature!

cotton

I know he states that but if you look closely, a lot of the dogs start off with a lead or harness & end up with a prong collar on them. I watch him purely to see how many times this happens (prong collars are an absolute hate of mine) & it's a lot.

BeauZak

Great article published by the APDT (Association of pet dogs trainers)

http://www.apdt.co.uk/pdfs/Choke_Chain_leaflet.pdf

C.M uses all sorts of collars and IMO these are highly inappropriate.

I am with the professionals on CM. Especially Ian Dunbar (who will be coming to Ireland soon we hope). His take on C.M is here http://dogtime.com/cesar-millan-and-ian-dunbar.html

I am looking forward to the day when C.M's contract with the T.V company ends. At which stage I believe and HOPE he won't be on T.V anymore.

Anyone who understands and works with dogs can watch the body language and understand why his techniques are outdated and in my professional opinion dangerous for owners and dogs.

As regards pack theories and the incorrect portrayed anyone who really wants to understand canine behaviour and "pack" should refer to Ray and Lorna Coppinger studies also Barry Eaton, Ian Dunbar and others referred to in posts above.

http://www.workingdogweb.com/Coppinger.htm

http://www.deaf-dogs-help.co.uk/help/dominance.htm

Wokie

I've read one of Barry Eatons book on dominance! It's called 'Dominance Fact or Fiction' and it is an excellent book.

I agree with you Beauzak...the sooner Caesar Milan is off the air, the better! Along with 'dog borstal' for that matter!!!!

cowzerp

The problem with people is they dont understand what he's doing! he's not training the dogs, he's getting them acting like(DOGS) instead of unstable human like confused dogs!

these dogs are timebombs..im a believer and so are most people who actually watched the program, the people who oppose his ways are mostly dog trainers, its not the same thing.

Morganna

Caesar knows his job .he doesnt train dogs he is more a behaviourist .He is good at what he does.He treats dogs as dogs animals and not humans in animal skins.A dog is a dog not a human Caesar is great and any one who is succesful will have jealous people trying to knock them

Morganna

well i went on that site and dont know what to think.But i do know that Caesar knows dog behaviour .

peasant

Cesar Millan is a businessman who dabbles in dog bahaviour.

No more, no less.

He knows one or two things about dog behoviour, I grant him that. But his interests lie not with the wellbeing and/or good behaviour of the dogs, but with making money.

My problem is that he doesn't practice what he preaches on his television shows. For the sake of a quick, televisable result, more often than not he resorts to physical dominance of the dog ...exactly what he SAYS you shouldn't do.

Transforming yourself into a credible leader and your dog into a happy "follower" is a long drawn out process, plagued by slow progress and the odd setback ...not fit for television.

So he rushes in to see a "problem dog", pushes it around a bit, asserts his dominance (often unseen by the uninitiated viewer/ dog owner), makes the dog "perform" for the camera, spouts a few of his mantras and then disappears.

Neither dog nor owner are helped by this.

The man's a fake. But he does rather well out of it.

phoenix-MT

lakes wrote: »

i watch it & sometimes it seems to good to be true,the fact that within 2 mins he can control a dog! I was on another forum on another website & the people thier reckoned that he used electric shocks wit the dogs & that they wouldnt show this on tv! they reckon that when he says psst that this gives the impression to the dog of the electric buzz from the collar & frightens the s**t of them! when i try to use psst wit my dog or any dog they just look at me like im mad!

I have trained and worked with german shepherds in aggresive environments and now i own a staff, who came from a really bad background of being abused. The 'psst' that you are refering to is just a noise to distract the dog from what they are doing or thinking and getting their attention. I am against shock treatment as there is no need for it, its a quick fix to a problem that the dog does not understand and the trainer cannot be bothered spending the time to rectify. I have seen shock collars for perimeter fences in use, and the majority of dogs actually learn that when the collar is off, they can go where they want...is this fixing the problem? Ceasers methods are correct, but like all tv shows, it is not done in 2mins, he can spend a week or two with the dog and just film bits to keep the audience entertained. Dog training is a 24 hour job, for someone who can cope with severe frustration and has a lot of patience, otherwise my advice would be get *professional* help but make sure you are involved in the training, so you can continue it afterwards. Oh and if you are not good at making dominating noices like 'pssst' use a rattle bottle. goodluck

peasant

In 90% of cases of "problem dogs" from a normal family dog background the problem doesn't lie with the dogs anyway. Dog training is a waste of time in those cases, it's the owners that need training

phoenix-MT

I agree, the only really psycological problems a dog may have are from inter-breeding or genetic diseases, all of the rest are from human interaction, mainly from people who havent got a clue how to look after a dog or train it even in basic obedience ie. Sit, Down etc. And what really annoys me is this dangerous dogs act and lists that ban the dogs that i love best like staffs, g/s, akitas, rotties etc But then last week i got bit on my foot by a Jack Russell for no reason from behind!!! lol

Does anybody remember Barbara Woodward (I think??) She used to have a TV program lightyears ago training dogs. A choker chain was her preferred method too if I remember rightly.

Morganna

Barbara woodhouse did use check chains she was an excellent dog trainer .I have defo changed my opinion on ceasar .but Barbara Woodhouse was good and as she always used to say there are no bad dogs its bad owners.I

Morganna

phoenix-MT wrote: »

I agree, the only really psycological problems a dog may have are from inter-breeding or genetic diseases, all of the rest are from human interaction, mainly from people who havent got a clue how to look after a dog or train it even in basic obedience ie. Sit, Down etc. And what really annoys me is this dangerous dogs act and lists that ban the dogs that i love best like staffs, g/s, akitas, rotties etc But then last week i got bit on my foot by a Jack Russell for no reason from behind!!! lol

I have owned German shepherds all my life and worked obedience shown dogs in breed ..shows .worked with a variety of different breeds and the only dogs to have bitten me where a chihuhua a westie and a yorkie I have never been bitten by any large breeds.

WECpoker

Personally, I love the show...but more for the friendly character he portrays and the different stories of the dogs and their owners. I guess if I was using it as a learning technique on how to train my own dog I would view it with a more critical eye.

I am entertained by the show for some reason so that is good enough for me

phoenix-MT

Morganna wrote: »

I have owned German shepherds all my life and worked obedience shown dogs in breed ..shows .worked with a variety of different breeds and the only dogs to have bitten me where a chihuhua a westie and a yorkie I have never been bitten by any large breeds.

lol then you feel the same, the dogs that you love best (german shepherds) are banned because of how aggresive they are, but all the little dogs with little dog syndrome are allowed bacause when they bite it doesnt hurt....is that the point though, what about when a westie bites a baby?!

Morganna

I doubt if a little dog did attack a child it would make the papers it wouldnt be sensational enough its only the big dogs the media pick on.The little dogs can be very aggressive and yet a gsd would lay down his life for you

Morganna

phoenix-MT wrote: »

lol then you feel the same, the dogs that you love best (german shepherds) are banned because of how aggresive they are, but all the little dogs with little dog syndrome are allowed bacause when they bite it doesnt hurt....is that the point though, what about when a westie bites a baby?!

Yep i do feel the same its so damn annoying .

Morganna

Do you all remember in the 70s it was gsds are dangerous attacking then it went to rotties in the 80s then to pitbulls .What breed will be next but i do admit some of Caesars techniques are just common sense.

phoenix-MT

yea true, however just some dog owners dont have any common sense! yea were due a new breed to bully now aint we!!! lol any one got any ideas what will be next?

Morganna

Phoenix thats it precisley what will the next breed be
bet it aint anything small .

phoenix-MT

just a couple of quick true personal stories about german shepherds.

when my sister was a baby they had a 4 year old gsd. My sister got out of her cot and crawled towards the fire, every1 was in the kitchen next door and heard the dog growling at her, so they ran in with a shot gun, but only to find the gsd lying in front of the fire growling at my sister to keep her away, sadly the gsd was that severly burnt that the vet had to put him down, but he sacrificed himself to save her.


When my grandad had a gsd, unfortunetly it bit one of the sheep and turned, became aggresive, so he brought it up into the hills one day where he lived to shoot it, but the weather changed so quickly that he got lost in the severe fog....it was the gsd that led him down the hill and 3 miles back home safely, and ever since then it changed and would never leave his side....almost like it knew the reason for going up into the hills. He had that dog for 10 years and was the best dog he ever had.

Thats why i like them so much.