Fitness advise for women.

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Hey all, looking for a bit of help with this one.
A few girls I know have been asking for advise with their training routines. One of the main questions I've been asked is how to tone up thighs and butts ect, without adding too much mass.

So my question is:
Should women be lifting heavy when doing exercises like squats and lunges, when they don't want to bulk up their legs?

I know the arguments for - "When you're toning your body you are adding muscle so you should lift heavy"

Arguments against - if the area is already bulky you should stick to lower weight and more cardio.

What about repetitions? Should women be doing more reps, with less weight or sticking to the 3 sets of 8-12 reps?

Found this web site in the stickies which I shall be distributing: http://www.stumptuous.com/

Thanks in advance for the help!
D'oh! Can't edit spelling mistake in title.

Malteaser!

Simple answer is... squats and deadlifts!!!

I know most girls look at these "manly" moves and shudder, but trust me, they work fantastically well.

I've been squatting and deadlifting for the last however long and my legs, back, and bum have never been in better shape, you can't pinch any fat at all of them.

Heavy weight's aren't going to make you "bulky" but at the same time they're not gonna completly "tone" up a girl who's carrying alot of bodyfat, so to that end diet is important too.

One could argue that since the general rule for hypertrophy seems to be "do 8-12 reps", it would be better to stick in the lower ranges of 5 and 6 reps so as not to gain too much muscle (but tbh that's probably not gonna happen anyway).

Anyone who argues against girls doing squats and deadlifts obviously doesn't know what they're talking about and are firmly stuck inside the "girls use the abductor machins and guys squat" mindset.

g'em

Hail 2 Da Chimp wrote: »

So my question is:
Should women be lifting heavy when doing exercises like squats and lunges, when they don't want to bulk up their legs?

Yes. The 'toned' butt look will come from squatting and close stance lunging (the further forward your foot goes the more your quads are used, keep the stride narrower for butt boosting). It really is very, very hard for women to bulk up without juicing, and even those who do will only start to see an appreciable increase in muscle size when lifting very big weights.

Hail 2 Da Chimp wrote:

Arguments against - if the area is already bulky you should stick to lower weight and more cardio.

Sticking to a "lower weight" in women's terms (i.e. usually pink dumbell type weights) will have absolutely no effect whatsoever on muscle development and you might as well not do it. If the area is already bulky diet is the primary tool for changing it, not weights or cardio.

Hail 2 Da Chimp wrote:

What about repetitions? Should women be doing more reps, with less weight or sticking to the 3 sets of 8-12 reps?

Women can, and should, train just like a man does.

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Just what I was looking for, thanks G'em

I can concentrate on my own work out now! - Although I'll probably have to share the squat rack now!

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Malteaser! wrote: »

Heavy weight's aren't going to make you "bulky" but at the same time they're not gonna completly "tone" up a girl who's carrying alot of bodyfat, so to that end diet is important too.

One could argue that since the general rule for hypertrophy seems to be "do 8-12 reps", it would be better to stick in the lower ranges of 5 and 6 reps so as not to gain too much muscle (but tbh that's probably not gonna happen anyway)

Neither of the girls carry a lot of body fat, but instead are looking for exercises to target "problem" areas.

So would you recommend lower reps with higher weights then Malteaser?

Malteaser!

Hail 2 Da Chimp wrote: »

Neither of the girls carry a lot of body fat, but instead are looking for exercises to target "problem" areas.

So would you recommend lower reps with higher weights then Malteaser?

Ok, so they're both quite lean. That's good, they should see the results quicker so!!

The problem areas as mentioned are legs and bum? How about the back of their arms? Most girls carry extra bodyfat there too.

The best thing to do is keep it really, really simple. Squat 3x6, Leg Press 3x12, Leg Curls 3x12 and maybe something else to finish off.

Let them pick a movement of their choice, a "free" movement, it can be anything, one that they like to do, as a reward for getting through the session.

Starting with the bar on the squat will probably be more than enough, if you've good squat form yourself, maybe you can teach them...

g'em

Hail 2 Da Chimp wrote: »

So would you recommend lower reps with higher weights then Malteaser?

My own personal take on this would be that an 8-12 rep range would be more likely to work for girls starting out with weights.

Many (most?) girls when they begin to train with weights are inherently scared of them. Weights are boys' territory and getting told to lift big right from the start may not go down so well. Malteaser! had a lot of exposure to big lifting before starting to lift herself and had the right attitude towards it from the beginning - she's seen brilliant results very fast. Most girls won't have that environment to rely on so you'll need to gradually encourage them to lift heavier. Even at the start a weight that you'll know they're damn capable of lifting will seem very, very hard to them - it will be a psychological workout as well as a physical one.

Lower reps are also primarily for strength building. Sure, we want to see the girls get stronger too, but for an appreciable impact on muscular development the hypertrophy favouring 8-12 rep range will not only improve 'tone' (an increase of muscle fibre recruitment therefore improving shape and growth of muscle) but it will also make them work harder during the workout burning more calories on-site as well as increasing emtabolism outside the gym through an increase in lean mass.

Certainly if I'm looking to 'tone' (yeah, yeah we all hate the word but it gets the point across) I drop weight and up the reps - if burns fat better and shapes me better, but I would hold bodyfat a lot more readily than Malteaser! would, who is naturally long and lean. Given that she naturally holds very little fat the lower rep range suits her because strength is a major goal of hers and she'll get firmer along with it. The lower rep big lift, higher rep accessory work scenario Malteaser! has outlined is the perfect combo tbh, although make sure the girls have really got good form before going heavy.

If it's the "problem" areas that are typical to women (a better bum, things, toned arms) they'll get sorted by doing any and all the exercises that will see improvement in these areas for men.

Hanley

g'em wrote: »

Lower reps are also primarily for strength building. Sure, we want to see the girls get stronger too, but for an appreciable impact on muscular development the hypertrophy favouring 8-12 rep range will not only improve 'tone' (an increase of muscle fibre recruitment therefore improving shape and growth of muscle) but it will also make them work harder during the workout burning more calories on-site as well as increasing emtabolism outside the gym through an increase in lean mass.

The other side of the argument is, 8-12 reps means more chances for form to slip, greater risk of potential injury and the reenforcement of incorrect motor learning patterns. Coupled with the fact higher reps will generally lead to greater DOMS, would in my opinion discourage women to a greater extent that a "heavy" weight.

Besides, "heavy" is relative. I'd be very surprised if Malteaser was suggesting the girls do max sets of 6. Doing a set of 6 with a 10rm weight is a great way to get used to training, and it also allows you to work on form since it's a weight you can easily handle.

As for metabolism increases outside of the gym, the girls weren't looking to build large amounts of muscle, as stated by the OP, but as Malteaser also said, this is unlikely to happen regardless of rep ranges. Also, when you consider that EPOC will usually remain spiked to a greater degree after a heavier workout, the weigh off between high reps and low reps is marginal at best. And based on my own experience, I would say heavier workouts are better for weight loss (another significant reason being that generally you won't be doing sets of 8-12 when you're going that bit heavier, and I've always found lower rep sets to be easier to recover from post workout.)

g'em

Hanley wrote: »

The other side of the argument is, 8-12 reps means more chances for form to slip, greater risk of potential injury and the reenforcement of incorrect motor learning patterns. Coupled with the fact higher reps will generally lead to greater DOMS, would in my opinion discourage women to a greater extent that a "heavy" weight.

I agree, I'm simply saying from a "mental" side of things - the idea heavy lifting generally turns women off.

Hanley wrote:

Besides, "heavy" is relative. I'd be very surprised if Malteaser was suggesting the girls do max sets of 6. Doing a set of 6 with a 10rm weight is a great way to get used to training, and it also allows you to work on form since it's a weight you can easily handle.

ah, that wasn't clear from the post. If someone says 3 x 6 I'll assume it's a max set.

Hanley wrote:

And based on my own experience, I would say heavier workouts are better for weight loss (another significant reason being that generally you won't be doing sets of 8-12 when you're going that bit heavier, and I've always found lower rep sets to be easier to recover from post workout.)

Well it's each to their own, for sure. Again, your heavy, my heavy and a n00bs' heavy is all relative too (and lets not forget your intensity levels will be way above those of most other gym-goers). Heck, at the end of the day if the girls start to lift, that's a success in itself isn't it?!

Dragan

For my money a lot of people don't have what it takes to do "heavier" workouts straight off the bat. They either lack the knowledge and experience to get the weights right, or just the willpower to get the 6th rep and finish at 5, or the 5th and finish at 4 etc.

Just my opinion though.

Hanley

What I'm about to say is based on whether or not Malteaser meant max sets of 6 or not (and I believe she didn't).

Just to reittereate, nobody is saying they should be pushing to failure. The point was, low reps witha weight you can manage = an oppotunity to work on form. It doesn't mean straining to failure on every rep.

I've been training my deadlifts with 5x5's for the last 6 weeks. And jumping 10kg each week. Just cos I'm doing sets of 5 doesn't mean I'm struggling for reps or hitting failure.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Y'know, this could really be a handy sticky.

Malteaser!

Hanley wrote: »

What I'm about to say is based on whether or not Malteaser meant max sets of 6 or not (and I believe she didn't).

God no I wasn't talking about max sets of 6. That's be totally mad. I don't think ANYONE would suggest a beginner trys that. Hanley's already hit most of the points I was trying to make but I'll just try to clarify what I meant now..

Since the girls are beginners, they'll need to learn all the lifts. Lower reps and more sets are easier for this in my exp since there's less chance of a form break down. And I know my DOMS are less the next day too with lower reps. I would just think that if you had a beginner you should be doing everything possible to try and encourage them.

You should be trying to encourage, not discourage, and working them to the point where they start to dread going into the gym because they know they'll be so sore the next day isn't a great way to keep motivation high. I don't think any beginner would be too enthused if they were pushed to the point of lying in a pool of their own sweat afte a hard set of 12 reps. You should try to minimise the impact of DOMS the next day too since it's extremely uncomfortable if you're not used to it. So, like I said, I think lower reps on the big lifts are better for beginners for all the reasons mentioned above.

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Thanks for the advice all greatly appreciated!