Would you 'like' to believe?

Attractive Nun

Can't remember this thread being done before, though I'm sure the question has come up before. Anyway...

I often hear atheist friends of mine saying that they would 'like' to believe in religion*, but simply don't. What about you?



*For argument's sake, define 'religion' as the existence of a benevolent creator God and a happy afterlife to which you and everyone else has access. No need for a 'the biblical god is evil!!' tangent

YogiBear

Lovely idea.. I'd love a huge big pair of swan wings but....

What I'd really like is for the believers not to believe...

Xhristy

This post has been deleted.

Buttes, Le Mao

Belief in anything is dangerous. everything should be constantly revalued and nothing should be taken as an absolute.

Dades

I think I'd like to believe.
I may even decide to when my time is running out.

I'll have the blue pill please!

iFight

Xhristy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

True, but surely if someone was able to think/recognise the flaws int heir faith, then they wouldn't believe? Either way, i'd agree that people shouldn't be so closed-minded.

I wouldn't like to believe either. Can't see sense in wanting to believe in something that can't be shown/proven/felt/seen without a reason.

And i don't think playing the 'life of values and moral code, etc' card changes anything, you should be able to behave like a good person without being told you have too.

But in cases where people would behave immorally without a belief/God telling them what to do, i think it is better that they have one.

aidan24326

Attractive Nun wrote: »

Would you 'like' to believe?

No. Since 'believing' in a benevolent creator god and a happy afterlife necessarily requires alot of self-delusion and either ignorance of the facts or a blatant refusal to accept anything that contradicts one's own comfortable (and comforting) worldview. And just making sh1t up mostly. Couldn't base my beliefs on a load of made-up nonsense tbh.

Buttes, Le Mao

Atheist brigade is so annoying it would almost drive a person to religion.
Parroting that crap is as bad as religious people preaching their crap.

Zillah

I'd like if it* was true.

Subtle but immensely important difference.


*It being defined as nothing more than some sort of continued existence filled with niceness.

Zillah

Buttes, Le Mao wrote: »

Atheist brigade is so annoying it would almost drive a person to religion.
Parroting that crap is as bad as religious people preaching their crap.

What crap? Define "parroting" in this context.

Scofflaw

Zillah wrote: »

I'd like if it* was true.

Subtle but immensely important difference.


*It being defined as nothing more than some sort of continued existence filled with niceness.

Ditto.

secondarily,
Scofflaw

sure, it would be a lot easier wouldnt it
to have rules and morality defined for you so you never have to deal with very difficult decisions on a moral level or view the world as anything but black and white, and to know that if you did what you were told everything would be ok and there's someone up in the sky smiling down on you
how nice and simple it would be =p

but, that's not how things work and so that's that

adamd164

Dictator in the heavens? Eternal existence?

No thanks.

Dr Galen

depends on what you mean........like believe in what?

would i like to give up my critical faculties and have blind faith?

Then NO

Am i open to the fact that proof might come around at some stage in the future, that is pretty irrefutable and doesn't rely on a centuries old book of fables written by men/crooks?

YES

Would I like this to happen? Would I like it if god descended from on high on a chariot of fire, to bring us all to the land of milk, honey, happiness etc etc?

More difficult to answer, it sure sounds good alright, so what the hell, I'll say yes.

aliqueenb

i do already, and heres hoping i'm right lol!

YogiBear

aliqueenb wrote: »

i do already, and heres hoping i'm right lol!

What'll happen if you're not right? **just curious**

Attractive Nun

Zillah wrote:

I'd like if it* was true.

Subtle but immensely important difference.

I obviously recognise the difference, but I would question whether or not it is as 'immense' as you claim.

Let's say this continued niceness is true. Presumably, you would be pleased for two reasons. First, that you could one day take advantage of such niceness. Second, that you would be able to look forward to this niceness while here in this less nice (though I would say still quite nice) existence.

A genuine believer, however ridiculous his beliefs, will still be able to take advantage of the latter through his belief. Given my own atheism, I can't be sure, but I'd imagine the comfort* and simplicity one gains from religious belief can could be quite pleasureable. Of course, there's something to be said for being free from delusion (and it is always nice to look down on silly believers ), but is that worth the loss of comfort etc. I'm not sure.

*This comfort is dependent on the nature of your religion, of course. Pre-20th century christianity - with its fasting, abstinence and whatnot - doesn't strike me as that comfortable, but 21st century christianity - mass every other sunday, the odd pray - can't be that bad.

Zillah

bluewolf wrote: »

sure, it would be a lot easier wouldnt it
to have rules and morality defined for you so you never have to deal with very difficult decisions on a moral level or view the world as anything but black and white, and to know that if you did what you were told everything would be ok and there's someone up in the sky smiling down on you
how nice and simple it would be =p

but, that's not how things work and so that's that

You seem to have run off and started your own discussion on subjective versus objective morality, rather than a discussion on a mostly undefined hypothetical afterlife.

Zillah

Zillah wrote: »

You seem to have run off and started your own discussion on subjective versus objective morality, rather than a discussion on a mostly undefined hypothetical afterlife.

hehe
tbh, what came to mind was the attitudes of the believers in the christian forum
basically, the idea that believing would make things a lot simpler
since tbh their hypothetical afterlife would have a lot of implications as i was going on about
the two aren't unrelated

estebancambias

YogiBear wrote: »

What'll happen if you're not right? **just curious**

NOTHING....

Zillah

Attractive Nun wrote: »

I obviously recognise the difference, but I would question whether or not it is as 'immense' as you claim.

Well, put it this way, there's two questions:

- Would you, being an atheist who believes that religion maintains falsehoods, willfully change yourself (assuming such were possible) into a believer?
- Would you, being an atheist who believes that religion maintains falsehoods, like to be proven wrong?

The former, no. Maybe if I encountered an amazingly cool religion that really really appealed to me and I was getting very old, perhaps yes.
The latter, in regard to certain things, yes, certainly.


I'd say those questions are very importantly different.

iFight

Buttes, Le Mao wrote: »

Atheist brigade is so annoying it would almost drive a person to religion.
Parroting that crap is as bad as religious people preaching their crap.

What do you expect in a religious discussion in the Atheist Forum?

Pompey Magnus

I'd like it if it were true that there was an eternal afterlife where we all go to after we die and live on forever in some happy place like Elysium.

As for the question of wanting to "believe" in it I don't think I could say yes, I would love to know it was true and if it is as good as I imagine it could be then my belief or disbelief will be in no way relevant to my making it there, and if belief is a pre-requesite to this afterlife then I wouldn't want it to be true. I hate the idea of exclusivity, be that in this life or the next.

In a nutshell I would only want to believe in an afterlife which I didn't need to believe in to get to, and so I can cut out the redundancy of belief and lie in on a Sunday .

bogwalrus

has there ever been a study into whether a society (or community of believers) lives more happily and economically due to the fact that they believe (in a specific religion) compared to a similar society of atheists.

Like group A and group B kind of testing.

Is it even possible to do an accurate study?

I personally would like to see results in relation to psychological,technological and all those other "ical" factors. See which society works better etc


(i apologise for poor syntax and stuff but i hope you get what i mean)

An Fear Aniar

bogwalrus wrote: »

has there ever been a study into whether a society (or community of believers) lives more happily and economically due to the fact that they believe (in a specific religion) compared to a similar society of atheists.

Like group A and group B kind of testing.

Is it even possible to do an accurate study?

I personally would like to see results in relation to psychological,technological and all those other "ical" factors. See which society works better etc


(i apologise for poor syntax and stuff but i hope you get what i mean)

Probably requires its own thread and I don't think there's even been a community of non-believers although perhaps most of Northern Europe is in practice atheist.


I'm sure everybody would like the idea that there is something more than what our senses allow us to perceive - that there's a deeper level to existence that we're not aware of an a day-to-day basis.

But again, in this thread some people are looking at "belief" exclusively in terms of their Judeao-Christian upbringing and I think that's unhelpful for them. They seem to have pigeon-holed all matters spiritual in that particular category and to me that's tragic.

It's like the Buddhists say "if you meet Buddha on the road kill him!" (Not that I'm pushing Buddhism coz I'm not, can't be doing with all that breathing and sitting around).



.

Pompey Magnus

bogwalrus wrote: »

has there ever been a study into whether a society (or community of believers) lives more happily and economically due to the fact that they believe (in a specific religion) compared to a similar society of atheists.

Like group A and group B kind of testing.

Is it even possible to do an accurate study?

I personally would like to see results in relation to psychological,technological and all those other "ical" factors. See which society works better etc


(i apologise for poor syntax and stuff but i hope you get what i mean)

I think I remember hearing of a study which showed that communities of believers tended to have lower incidences of mental illness, I assume that the study decided that there was nothing strange about people who regularly talk to their invisible friend in the sky.

Dades

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

But again, in this thread some people are looking at "belief" exclusively in terms of their Judeao-Christian upbringing and I think that's unhelpful for them. They seem to have pigeon-holed all matters spiritual in that particular category and to me that's tragic.

Well the OP did specify the type of belief they were suggesting. And it does seem to be the obvious one given the context of the thread.

Zombrex

Attractive Nun wrote: »

*For argument's sake, define 'religion' as the existence of a benevolent creator God and a happy afterlife to which you and everyone else has access. No need for a 'the biblical god is evil!!' tangent

Well if i was going to believe in something I would believe in something a bit better than that.

The very concept of an "after life" kinda demonstrates that none of this is real, since it is basically saying that everything wonderful will happen in a place that is, handily enough, unknown and untestable and unreachable.

If people went to heaven in their 30s you would just look around at everyone over 30 and see if they were in heaven. But you couldn't because that would instantly demonstrate that heaven didn't exist.

Anyway, going on a bit of a ramble here. Basically I would find it impossible to believe in what you describe, and if I was going to "take the red pill" and make myself believe in something it would be something a bit better than what modern religion offers.

robindch

bogwalrus wrote: »

has there ever been a study into whether a society (or community of believers) lives more happily and economically due to the fact that they believe (in a specific religion) compared to a similar society of atheists.

Yes, there was an interesting article published in the Journal of Religion and Society here:

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

which correlated religiosity (defined as the percentage of a population asserting a belief in a god) and levels of teenage pregnancy and abortion and STD's, overall life expectancy, infant mortality and murder.

In all of these areas of misery (for want of a better word), countries with high levels of religiosity tended to have higher levels of misery than countries with low levels of religiosity. The only indicator that failed to correlate religiosity with misery was suicide, where there seemed to be no clear correlation one way or the other.

There are other studies which have produced similar findings, but I don't have time to find them just now.

rowlandbrowner

I'm suspicious of any notion of national identify, I find flags intimidating and dangerous, and I’m distrustful of anyone in a position of authority who cannot be easily removed from power, so religion to me seems like living in the ultimate totalitarian state – with no means of escape.

Also, the idea that all human - and whatever I could call personal – triumph can be accredited to a Stalin-esque figure in the sky makes life seem worthless.

estebancambias

robindch wrote: »

Yes, there was an interesting article published in the Journal of Religion and Society here:

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

which correlated religiosity (defined as the percentage of a population asserting a belief in a god) and levels of teenage pregnancy and abortion and STD's, overall life expectancy, infant mortality and murder.

In all of these areas of misery (for want of a better word), countries with high levels of religiosity tended to have higher levels of misery than countries with low levels of religiosity. The only indicator that failed to correlate religiosity with misery was suicide, where there seemed to be no clear correlation one way or the other.

There are other studies which have produced similar findings, but I don't have time to find them just now.

Ireland, Saudi Arabia, Mexico and Switzerland countries with high levels of religiosity all appear in top 10 in a 2005 report.

Belarus(president or Prime Minister is Athesit), Russia, Ukraine and Macedonia...countries with high levels of Atheism are in among the least happiest.

Seriously I don't see the connection either way.

robindch

estebancambias wrote: »

Seriously I don't see the connection either way.

hmm... try reading it more closely?

rowlandbrowner

estebancambias wrote: »

Belarus(president or Prime Minister is Athesit), Russia, Ukraine and Macedonia...countries with high levels of Atheism are in among the least happiest.

they are all former communist states, the lack of religion is due to the countries being atheistic states for decades. Estonia and the Czech Rep. are also two of the least religious countries in the world due to being former communist states, but they have also been two of the better off countries since the fall of the USSR and remain irreligious.

estebancambias

robindch wrote: »

n all of these areas of misery (for want of a better word), countries with high levels of religiosity tended to have higher levels of misery than countries with low levels of religiosity.

That was all I was responding to.

Zombrex

estebancambias wrote: »

Belarus(president or Prime Minister is Athesit), Russia, Ukraine and Macedonia...countries with high levels of Atheism are in among the least happiest.

The report Robin linked to was discussing prosperous democracies, ie countries that should be happy but that aren't. I don't think the countries you mention would be considered prosperous democracies.

seamus

I tend to find that people with no religion are far more relaxed, pleasant and happier than those who have strong religious beliefs. Those with strong religious beliefs seem to be constantly stressed about "doing the right thing" as it's been defined by their religion and less concerned about getting on with enjoying life.
Just personal experience.

aliqueenb

YogiBear wrote: »

What'll happen if you're not right? **just curious**

nothing...like the other guy, estebancambias(lol at the name!)
thats what is kind of depressing, if there is nothing we will never know, wrecks my head!

Lockstep

I'd love to be a fundamentalist.

Imagine always believing your right, no matter what, that you can do no wrong as you have already been saved and that no matter what you do in life, you will end up in heaven.

Wreck

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'd love to be a fundamentalist.

If I thought eternity with 72 beautiful virgins (although surely 72 experienced ladies would be better:)) would be my reward I'd be out blowing things up left, right and centre.

adamd164

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'd love to be a fundamentalist.

Imagine always believing your right, no matter what, that you can do no wrong as you have already been saved and that no matter what you do in life, you will end up in heaven.

Yeah, but then superior people like me get to laugh at you, so it's not all rosy.;)

Ickle Magoo

I'd like to believe, sometimes. When I look at my family & my kids & think of a heaven I could see them again in, I wish there was something more - or I had the comfort of believing there was more. But as someone pointed out to me here, wishing something were so & believing it to be are two completely different things.

stereoroid

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'd love to be a fundamentalist.

Well, there are substances out there that can give you a sense of what that's like. Temporarily, of course, and existing laws (natural or man-made) are always in effect, regardless of what state you're in. Avoid preaching in pubs, and if you're going to try and fly, start on the ground, OK? :eek:

If I was always right, always certain of my beliefs, I'd become incredibly lazy. Having to think my way through this world keeps me on my toes. It's no coincidence that Ned Flanders and his family always appear to be on drugs.

eoin5

I'm an agnostic theist so I believe that its impossible to figure out if a god is real or not, but I believe in one anyways because I'd like her to be real. fnord

estebancambias

That is a good mantra to have.

Lockstep

adamd164 wrote: »

Yeah, but then superior people like me get to laugh at you, so it's not all rosy.;)

But here's the thing.....I would not care!


I'd be filled with pride and happiness at the thought of you in hell.



"A local boy kicked me in the butt last week,
I just smiled at him and I turned the other cheek
I really don't care in fact I wish him well,
cos I'll be laughing my head off when he's burning in hell"

Lockstep

eoin5 wrote: »

I'm an agnostic theist so I believe that its impossible to figure out if a god is real or not, but I believe in one anyways because I'd like her to be real. fnord

I'm the same.

Can't be proven, but I believe he's real.

I don't try to force my beliefs on others, and don't like when they try to do the same.


Although free speech means I have no problem with people who feel like debating this when I'm in a good mood.

adamd164

I still can't see why anyone would actually want a celestial dictatorship to be in operation -- your every thought and move closesly scrutinised and analysed to determine your ultimate worthiness. Sounds bloody horrible.

djk1000

I don't think that I want to believe. I'm quite content without a belief system. It would be nice however, to have scientific proof of an afterlife. It would be nice to know when someone close dies, that it's just a temporary separation. It would also be nice to know that those that suffer most in this world don't suffer for nothing.

Tar.Aldarion

Yeah it but be nice, too bad...

gramlab

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'd like to believe, sometimes. When I look at my family & my kids & think of a heaven I could see them again in, I wish there was something more - or I had the comfort of believing there was more. But as someone pointed out to me here, wishing something were so & believing it to be are two completely different things.

My thinking would be along similar lines, but mainly from the point that I would not like any chance of myself, or my children more so coming back (reincarnation type of thing). A lot of the world is a fairly s****y place - wars, famine, injustice, abuse, persecution etc and based on population sizes the odds are you probably wouldn't end up in one of the nicer spots.

So long live the afterlife - something like Lanzarote in September would be nice:)

Dades

gramlab wrote: »

So long live the afterlife - something like Lanzarote in September would be nice:)

I was there in September - nice - though I wouldn't fancy an eternity there.