Wilderness EMFR Course

Trailblazer

Does anyone know of a Wilderness EMFR course in this country ??

I know there are a couple over across the water in the UK. But dont want to travel if I don't have to. Money, time and hassle.

Does the MCI or Red cross do a course.

BeardyGit

The WEMSI/W-EMT is what you're looking for I think. Should be one around this time next year....

HighlyCooL

I dont think any where is continuing the EMFR Courses because PHECC are deciding to only reconise Cardiac First Responder and Emergency first Responder and then EMT-B. where EMFR wound have been a little above EFR but below EMT-B

maglite

these are not designed to fall into the phecc system,

they are in a diferent league

BeardyGit

maglite wrote: »

these are not designed to fall into the phecc system,

they are in a diferent league

Don't wish to be pedantic, but what do you mean by a different league?

Let's face it, PHECC isn't the be all and end all of standardisation by any stretch of the imagination, and there are many of us who couldn't give two hoots about them either. What's the intention there Trailblazer, so we can understand where you're coming from with the request too?

TheDriver

Not to start a PHECC discussion but unfortunately in Ireland, PHECC is becoming the be all and end all for the time being with all the voluntaries signing up along with Ambualnce schools, particularly as its a statutory body.

HighlyCooL

no what i was saying is that PHECC wont reconise it has the qualification that it is, ie. the drugs(entonox, glucose gel, gtn), the spinal immobilisation and a few other bits. thats why if you do the EMFR course Phecc will only look on that qualification as a Emergency first responder, and not an emergency medical first responder.

Elessar

PHECC is becomming the be all and end all of the sector. Though as far as I know, it still has no standing in law. So it is not necessary legally to be phecc accredited to provide emergency care and technically anyone can call themselves a paramedic. At least, this was the case last year.

BeardyGit

I've a shed-load of training done, certifications, exams etc for the type of casualty care I may be required to provide in a remote/mountain environment. PHECC don't recognise any of that.... Until they introduce some flexibility into their setup and specifically recognise the difference between providing casualty care in a mountain/remote environment compared to the typical cas care environment, you're unlikely to see MR teams adopt their standards.

In fact, if I cross the border or head across the pond I can administer a selection of drugs if required, ranging from salbutamol and diazepam through to I/M morphine and so on. I've been to Wales for specialist training with A&E consultants and the like to qualify at this level. Over here, I could be shafted for handing a suspected M.I. an asprin... :rolleyes:

It's bad enough that in the kind of situations we'll work in that we're restricted from providing a true gold standard of care (compared to our UK based counterparts in MR), without electing to work under the even heavier restrictions that would be imposed were we a PHECC registered agency.

Until that's rectified, the word on the street is that most MR teams will refuse to sign up to PHECC. It's not our be all and end all.

civdef

Elessar wrote: »

PHECC is becomming the be all and end all of the sector. Though as far as I know, it still has no standing in law. So it is not necessary legally to be phecc accredited to provide emergency care and technically anyone can call themselves a paramedic. At least, this was the case last year.

Lots of legal standing:

http://www.phecit.ie/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=363

civdef

Gil_Dub wrote: »

In fact, if I cross the border or head across the pond I can administer a selection of drugs if required, ranging from salbutamol and diazepam through to I/M morphine and so on.

What legal basis /level of qualifications is that based on?

Over here, I could be shafted for handing a suspected M.I. an asprin... :rolleyes:

The new CFR (BLS) standards allow exactly that, and the new EMT grade will be able to do pretty much all of what you describe above.

boomer_ie

What Gil means is that no organisation Has to sign up to be a part of PHECC but are strongly encouraged to do so.

Pre-Hospital Care on the hills is vastly different to Pre-Hospital care on the streets. On the street an Ambulance with shiny expensive equipment available within ten to fifteen mins on a good day, on the hills its more likely to be 2 hours, without the shiny expensive equipment. If you look at the PHECC guidelines its use this piece of equipment in this manner. On the hills that is not always possible due to the environment and the plan for extricating the casualty (Remember the helicopter is not always available)

Another thing is most of the new PHECC guidelines are "Call ALS", on the hills that is not an option.

BeardyGit

Bang on there Shane about the differences in extrication,

Regarding the qualification, it's known as the ECMR - Emergency Care for Mountain Rescue. There are two levels - The basic one is the standard level of training & examination for any MR personnel administering drugs in the UK.

It's developed and delivered by a number of very experienced team doctors along with some A&E consultants and registrars from places like Bangor University Hospital in Wales and further afield. The examiners are A&E consultants for the practicals, and the written part is handled externally. It's officially accredited by the RCS in Scotland, as far as the legitimacy of the qualification goes. Suffice to say, it's enough in the UK - And they've carried drugs kits as MR teams for decades without incident.

The advanced level of ECMR takes in the extras like intubation and so forth. I'll see how I'm fixed later this year and I might see about heading back to Wales to do this one too. It's only available to mountain rescue personnel in any case, and as you're likely aware, it's not of direct use here when it comes down to the drugs side of things. That said, there's no harm in learning as much as you can.

When Lockerbie happened, MR personnel from Ireland travelled to assist immediately. Same thing with the helicopter crash in the Cooley's years back. That could just as easily have been across the border in the Mournes, with survivors in a remote location. If something major happens across the Irish Sea, we'd at least be in a position to jump on a coastguard or RAF transport to assist.... You never know I guess.

Unfortunately, the CFR (BLS) provides for a lower level of casualty care than I can provide at present, outside of the PHECC scheme. I'm already operating at the practical equivalent of EMT as I understand it to be under PHECC. In our case it's an REC 5 qualification with add on's for AHF-BLS and soon to include an ITLS cert too.... I'd hope to get a spot on the next W-EMT course too.

Given our specialist training and experience in what we do, PHECC have a long way to go before they'll actually be a viable option for us as far as I can see. And until we sign up (which is certainly a way off yet), we can't be forced by anyone to operate within their protocols. And I'm so very happy about that because it means we can continue to deliver the highest standard of care for our casualties in our specialist operating environment.

Anyway, we're way O.T. here - Sorry about that OP, but I hope this is of interest to you anyway?

Gil

Elessar

civdef wrote: »

Lots of legal standing:

http://www.phecit.ie/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=363

Hmm, I'm not a solicitor, but does this mean that all pre-hospital emergency care practitioners have to now legally operate under the phecc guidelines?

BeardyGit

Elessar wrote: »

Hmm, I'm not a solicitor, but does this mean that all pre-hospital emergency care practitioners have to now legally operate under the phecc guidelines?

Absolutely not.

maglite

Gil_Dub wrote: »

Don't wish to be pedantic, but what do you mean by a different league?

It has been covered above but i view them as different areas with different skills needed.

In O Connell St. i do not need to be log rolled onto a blanket or have to be carried/managed for hours. I can put up with the pain of a broken leg for 5 min,

But in, remote areas the level of care/skill set i need and want are different.There is a very real risk of death from hypothermia,and going for 6-8hours with out pain meds would suck!

What i said was not meant as an attack, is was a reply to the idea of using PHECC guidelines on the hills when years of work have been put into adapting the level of care for the hills

BeardyGit

maglite wrote: »

What i said was not meant as an attack, is was a reply to the idea of using PHECC guidelines on the hills when years of work have been put into adapting the level of care for the hills

No worries - I wasn't being defensive either. I was curious about how you were approaching the subject, that's all

Trailblazer

Well lads thanks a million for all the info on PHECC.........

Does anyone have any info on Wilderness EMFR, EFR, CFR courses in this country.

I am interested in getting into emergency medical support of wilderness expeditions, camping groups abroad, that kinda thing.
I understand PHECC have issues with the EMFR standard, don't really mind what they think. I am more interested in gaining additional skills for remote area operation. Any information would be great.

Cheers

BeardyGit

Trailblazer wrote: »

Well lads thanks a million for all the info on PHECC.........

Does anyone have any info on Wilderness EMFR, EFR, CFR courses in this country.

I am interested in getting into emergency medical support of wilderness expeditions, camping groups abroad, that kinda thing.
I understand PHECC have issues with the EMFR standard, don't really mind what they think. I am more interested in gaining additional skills for remote area operation. Any information would be great.

Cheers

Fair enough. If that's what you want it for, do a Remote Emergency Care course.

maglite

Gil on the whole REC issue,

above REC3 where can you do it, cost, availibility,

and maybe a post somewhere for what exactly REC is, and the different levels

BeardyGit

There are a number of options available for certification above REC3 level. REC4 or 5 can be arranged by suitably accredited trainers with a good bit of notice, but it's usually based on demand so you need a few heads with enough interest and the cash to spend. Not all trainers are signed off to deliver and certify a course at this level, so make sure you find one who is before organising anything...

There's also another scheme which is Rescue Emergency Care, also called REC, with the certification scheme being practically identical to the newer Remote Emergency Care. Word on the street is that the Remote Emergency Care scheme is actively updated, with constant input from wilderness and remote health-care practitioners, whereas the Rescue Emergency Care formal syllabus is somewhat static. My own personal preference would be to maintain currency on these skills, so I'd go with Remote Emergency Care if I were spending money on such a course.

The central administration of the Remote Emergency Care scheme have a list of trainers in the UK & Ireland which can be found here:

http://www.remoteemergencycare.com/trainers.php

In Ireland there are 4 trainers listed on their website;

Pat Reid (First Aid for Life) - based in Kildare
Joe O'Gorman, based in Dublin
Vaughan Mason, based in Wicklow.
Ronan Concannon - Based in Galway.

I know the first three personally as they're all active in Mountain Rescue as well as having vast professional experience as paramedics and trainers. Ronan would also be a highly recommended trainer according to Pat. I've attended courses delivered by all three of the east coast instructors, and judging by their standards, I'd say Ronan's just as highly qualified and skilled. I'd be happy to go with any of them to run a course.

From what I can tell, Remote Emergency Care level 5 (expedition/rescue grade training) for a group of about 8 students with 1 instructor takes about 4-5 days, depending on the length of each day and the facilities available, and a lower level REC cert is pre-requisite AFAIK. When I did REC 5, it was a 'closed' course for our team, and took 4 long days over 2 weekends with a couple of evening sessions on the Fridays too.

Just want to clearly state that I've absolutely NO commercial interest in any of this, and I'm only writing this to provide information to help a boardsie, not to publicise one scheme or provider over another. If I could find ANY information on Rescue Emergency Care online (ie; the older scheme), I'd also have included it here. Simple fact is that it's not available....and that in itself, in this day and age, should speak for itself. There are many other certifications too, so do your homework and by all means solicit others input before deciding how you want to do it.

Hope that's okay - I've tried to be careful to stay inside the charter rules and so on.

BTW, I've cert's under both schemes, if it makes any difference.

BeardyGit

And just to clarify, the reason I'm still discussing this on the OP's thread is that REC5 ties into an 'official' Wilderness first responder course/certificate too.

There are many ways to skin a cat, as they say....

Gil

Trailblazer

Hi Gil,

many thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of the Remote Emergency Care qualification. I'll be in contact with the one of the east coast instructors.

Trailblazer...

DubMedic

@ OP
PM Sent

@ psni ( Mod ) .. my apologies i was unaware
<snip>

DubMedic

Shield

Hello DubMedic.

If you want to recommend a company to the OP, can you please do it via a PM? We don't allow advertising in the forum.

Thanks.

BeardyGit

Apologies for yet another reply but I've recently seen something that suggests potential students for this type of training should be even more aware of what's going on in the local wilderness first aid training marketplace.

There are many providers out there offering wilderness first aid training, many with their own interpretations of someone elses syllabus, and many who in my personal opinion are not sufficiently skilled or experienced in practicing wilderness first aid to deliver this type of training.

I've recently seen first aid training providers here in Ireland imply that they provide training to mountain rescue teams or by proxy team members operating in their roles as MRT members, when I know for a fact that they don't.

Sadly, there are a few Walter Mitty type characters out there who will happily hype up their fleeting past involvement with the emergency services in an attempt to lend credibility to what they do now...and mountain rescue unfortunately doesn't escape their occurance.

From my personal experience (and take note that this is all personal commentary, as is everything I post here on boards), mountain rescue people here in Ireland generally adhere to either the Remote/Rescue Emergency Care or PHECC first responder recognised syllabus and protocols.

As teams and individuals with a keen focus on skills development, we would supplement that initial training with specialist courses here in Ireland and abroad, for example PHECC MFR/EMT, WEMSI W-EMT/WFR, ECMR Basic/Advanced etc.

Whether we're talking about REC, PHECC basic certifications or more specialised training, it's important to note that a mountain rescue team or member operating in their capacity as a team member (as opposed to doing something on their own initiative, time and funding) here is highly unlikely to use any old joe bloggs first aid trainer to address their training needs....

Just because a trainer or provider follows a syllabus that's used overseas by mountain rescue teams (in the USA or Canada for example), that doesn't mean any mountain rescue team here would necessarily endorse that trainer or provider, or indeed their adoption of a particular syllabus. But that's what some providers here in Ireland imply, deliberately misleading prospective students and the public at large.

If you want to ensure you're getting the level of wilderness/outdoor first aid training that you will KNOW a mountain rescue team member would receive, delivered to the same standards an MRT would demand, look for a REC course delivered by a registered and certified provider.

If the course you're signing up for isn't certified by either Remote or Rescue Emergency Care (the bodies, not just a line on the cert), then it's likely not what your local MRT would invest in and in my opinion, neither should you. A certificate for wilderness first aid that's not recognised by the likes of Mountaineering Ireland or the Canoe Union in my opinion as a keen outdoor sports head isn't worth the paper it's printed on, so why settle for it when these providers will charge just as much as you'd pay to receive a recognised REC cert?

I don't like to see people misled, especially not by those who think it's okay to tack 'mountain rescue' onto their product description to mislead others. Bad form indeed.

Gil

sunnyjim

Gil,

Maybe it's time for someone to compile a list of courses which members of official mountain rescue teams have undertaken? This might also help out regards another members thread here a while back that got your attention, in that no-one else will get caught out like that.

djtechnics1210

+1 sunnyjim, great idea

Bruce11

will this course count toward the cpd for the phecc to be on the register?

Hooch

Bruce11 wrote: »

will this course count toward the cpd for the phecc to be on the register?

Would think so, but it should!!

Ring PHECC and ask them to be sure.

Bruce11

I will ring and see what they hav to say.

sgthighway

A friend of a friend from the West did this course in Wales.
Don't know why he went to Wales but he is on hols so can't ask straight away

lrd90

Gil_Dub wrote: »

Apologies for yet another reply but I've recently seen something that suggests potential students for this type of training should be even more aware of what's going on in the local wilderness first aid training marketplace.

There are many providers out there offering wilderness first aid training, many with their own interpretations of someone elses syllabus, and many who in my personal opinion are not sufficiently skilled or experienced in practicing wilderness first aid to deliver this type of training.

I've recently seen first aid training providers here in Ireland imply that they provide training to mountain rescue teams or by proxy team members operating in their roles as MRT members, when I know for a fact that they don't.

Sadly, there are a few Walter Mitty type characters out there who will happily hype up their fleeting past involvement with the emergency services in an attempt to lend credibility to what they do now...and mountain rescue unfortunately doesn't escape their occurance.

From my personal experience (and take note that this is all personal commentary, as is everything I post here on boards), mountain rescue people here in Ireland generally adhere to either the Remote/Rescue Emergency Care or PHECC first responder recognised syllabus and protocols.

As teams and individuals with a keen focus on skills development, we would supplement that initial training with specialist courses here in Ireland and abroad, for example PHECC MFR/EMT, WEMSI W-EMT/WFR, ECMR Basic/Advanced etc.

Whether we're talking about REC, PHECC basic certifications or more specialised training, it's important to note that a mountain rescue team or member operating in their capacity as a team member (as opposed to doing something on their own initiative, time and funding) here is highly unlikely to use any old joe bloggs first aid trainer to address their training needs....

Just because a trainer or provider follows a syllabus that's used overseas by mountain rescue teams (in the USA or Canada for example), that doesn't mean any mountain rescue team here would necessarily endorse that trainer or provider, or indeed their adoption of a particular syllabus. But that's what some providers here in Ireland imply, deliberately misleading prospective students and the public at large.

If you want to ensure you're getting the level of wilderness/outdoor first aid training that you will KNOW a mountain rescue team member would receive, delivered to the same standards an MRT would demand, look for a REC course delivered by a registered and certified provider.

If the course you're signing up for isn't certified by either Remote or Rescue Emergency Care (the bodies, not just a line on the cert), then it's likely not what your local MRT would invest in and in my opinion, neither should you. A certificate for wilderness first aid that's not recognised by the likes of Mountaineering Ireland or the Canoe Union in my opinion as a keen outdoor sports head isn't worth the paper it's printed on, so why settle for it when these providers will charge just as much as you'd pay to receive a recognised REC cert?

I don't like to see people misled, especially not by those who think it's okay to tack 'mountain rescue' onto their product description to mislead others. Bad form indeed.

Gil

Gil_Dub raises some important points about first aid training that people should be more aware of. However there are some points I would like to raise.

There are accredited and approved providers of Wilderness First Aid training in Ireland, who are qualified and experienced.
There are several different "outdoor" first aid schemes, and not just REC or WFA. However the only ones that are recognised by the ICU and the MCI/MI are REC and WFA.
There are WFA providers providing training to mountain rescue teams.
Not all mountain rescue teams use the REC schemes. Some teams use their own adapted training, WFA and PHECC EFR/EMT.
There are WFA providers who have provided training to many MCI/MI and ICU members and instructors.

People should be careful with language/generalisations when posting. I think this is even more important when promoting a particular product, brand or scheme as it can be very easy to damage the reputation of other genuine providers.

There are cowboys in all walks of life, but I can assure you that there are genuine active providers of WFA who are offended by some of the comments in Gil_Dub's post.

Regards,
lrd90

Shield

lrd90 wrote: »

There are cowboys in all walks of life, but I can assure you that there are genuine active providers of WFA who are offended by some of the comments in Gil_Dub's post.

If anyone is offended, let them come on here and speak their mind. It's a discussion forum and Gil has made it quite clear that this is his personal experience and personal opinion.

Other people who have different views are entitled to come on and challenge him over his statements, as long as it's done in a civil and respectful manner.

Please also check your private messages lrd90.

BeardyGit

@ LRD90 - Absolutely agree that there are MRT's who adapt a syllabus in conjunction with a training provider to deliver what they need, and quite rightly so.

My point was made in relation to members of the general public who are seeking a wilderness type first aid training provider, and who may be misled by providers who openly suggest they deliver a mountain rescue adopted course here in Ireland, when they quite simply don't. So, my personal experience suggests that if someone wanted a 'safe bet', that REC would be a good starting point....that's all. I said that because I understand the way REC providers are signed off to deliver training, develop the syllabus etc.

I'm all in favour of any other suggestions or recommendations for suitable courses to be made - My own experience is just that, my own, and personal experience will never be exhaustive for any of us. There's always something that can be added by another party. Likewise, if you're in a position to identify another training scheme which in your personal experience meets the needs of Joe Public, I'd be happy to take the suggestion....

If I've caused offence inadvertently, I certainly apologise for doing so, but would politely suggest you re-read my contribution in the above context.

All the best,

Gil

IPNA

Gil_Dub wrote: »

My point was made in relation to members of the general public who are seeking a wilderness type first aid training provider, and who may be misled by providers who openly suggest they deliver a mountain rescue adopted course here in Ireland, Gil

As a provider for both the Wilderness First Aid and the Wilderness First Responder courses here in Kerry, I want to add my comments.

I agree with Gil that providers should not claim to give a mountain rescue curriculum if they are not certified to do so.

Here at IPNA, we offer a curriculum certified by the Wilderness Medical Society (wms.org), and slightly tailor it for the Irish environment.

It is the utmost importance for providers of outdoor education and first aid to be honest and show integrity about their curriculum. Word of mouth is by far the largest means for us to get students. A lack of integrity would end our student enrollment.


Another issue that we are dealing with is how to apply wilderness first aid training into an Irish context. In North America where I received all of my training from, there are hundreds of miles of wild places where the first responder will be acting on their own for days at a time.
Here is Ireland, even here in South Kerry, there are few places where you would find yourself where you are further than one hour from definitive care.

I would like to here what people think about the application of "Wilderness Protocols" here in Ireland.

Thanks,
Aebhric

Mycroft H

Sorry for dragging this up but there is plenty of places in Ireland where you can be more then one hour from effective pre hospital care even, caving is a prime example of this.

In caving situations we could be many hours even days from effective pre hospital care and here is where the wilderness emergency personelle step in, treating and stabilising patients to the best of their abilities in a hostile environment

BoonDoc

BX 19 wrote: »

there is plenty of places in Ireland where you can be more then one hour from effective pre hospital care even

Why is there not more of an awareness for the need for Wilderness protocols from PHECC or the hillwalking groups?

Every other country that I have travelled to has some sort of Wilderness First Aid requirement for hillwalkers or outdoor types.

Where is Ireland in all of this?

maglite

MCI have provision for REC in MS and ML courses. What more do you want? PHECC does't stop people like MRTs and ICRA operating to the International EMT-W standard.

BoonDoc

maglite wrote: »

MCI have provision for REC in MS and ML courses. What more do you want? PHECC does't stop people like MRTs and ICRA operating to the International EMT-W standard.

The international Wilderness EMT standard includes the full EMT-Basic course along with city based certification. In the US and Canada you have to hold a full EMT license as well as your Wilderness certs.

That requirement is not here in Ireland.