Defence Tactics Question

Colm_OReilly

The blitz defence, I know from Ulster our transition from turf wedge to blitz is very difficult to get your head around at the start and the Welsh taken to it extremely well.

- Andrew Trimble

Can some of you more enlightened folk explain what a turf wedge & blitz defence tactic is - strengths/weaknesses etc? Also, what's Ireland's? What's the norm in Rugby?

Cheers,
Col

Ulstermell0

blitz - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitz_defence

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/s96/st94096.htm
(bit more explanation)

no idea on the 'turf wedge'

monaghanbiffo

i think turf wedge refers to a drift defense but that could be wrong

Amz

Blitz defence is probably most effective as it doesn't allow the opposition any time on the ball, it's cuts out their space and attacking options very quickly. Used to best effect against a team that relies heavily on it's backline.

PeadarofAodh

Blitz defence is only the best if you can pull it off - if your defence makes the smallest mistake then you leave big gaps in your line which can be taken advantage of very easily. You'll see most southern hemisphere sides using this tactic whereas far more of the northern hemisphere teams use the drift

tHE vAGGABOND

With a Blitz defense all your backs [or forwards standing out in back positions] run you up as fast as possible, with the intention that as soon as their 10 has it we are in his face, and if he passes it to 12, we should be in a position to make a hit on him instantly. They have no time to do anything. Wasps are the masters at it, and I expect to see it *a lot* from Wales at the weekend as world rugby people seem to think ROG does not do well against it.

There a million types of drift defenses, but in a [*very*] simple nutshell, they have the ball from a scrum or a line out, the open side wing forward moves out and takes their 10, our 10 'drifts over' and tackles the other teams first center etc - thus [in theory] we always should have an extra man in defense. Now if course its not as simple as that most of the time, but you get the point, we drift over a man in defense. [you also see that if you drift and I don't, that the 10 just runs straight and gains 30 meters!]. Drift defense only works if your players [1-15] are not stupid and not afraid of running around a bit, as one player not doing his job opens a gap the size of the chip on a kiwi's shoulder for the other team to attack!

Tim Robbins

PeadarofAodh wrote: »

Blitz defence is only the best if you can pull it off - if your defence makes the smallest mistake then you leave big gaps in your line which can be taken advantage of very easily. You'll see most southern hemisphere sides using this tactic whereas far more of the northern hemisphere teams use the drift

Also if you have steppers it's the easiest to beat. The defense are running so fast and straight that they can't always readjust their line.

some other defensive systems:
In and Out Drift: This is when defenders drift out.

Out and In Drift: This when defenders start out wide and come back in.

Both the drifts are good against steppers as the close of either the inside or outside.

The windmill or bannana, is when the outside defender deliberately comes out of the line deliberately to stop the attacking team spreading it wide. It's very tricky to get right.

Ulstermell0

slightly OT but on a tactical front (and its probably not worth its own thread)

does anyone remember last years 6N against france when we had a scrum (our ball) in the middle of the pitch and the backs lined up one behind the other? the scrum had to be reset for some violation and then they lined up normally and as far as i know they have never tried it again.

Does anyone know or care to guess what was planned from this?

from my basketball days sometimes when the ball was being put in from off court we would line up like that then break off into a set move to get an easy shot. but i've always wondered what was planned that day.

also i think the french intentionally had the scrum reset because their backs were bricking it over how to defend.

any thoughts?

marco_polo

Ulstermell0 wrote: »

slightly OT but on a tactical front (and its probably not worth its own thread)

does anyone remember last years 6N against france when we had a scrum (our ball) in the middle of the pitch and the backs lined up one behind the other? the scrum had to be reset for some violation and then they lined up normally and as far as i know they have never tried it again.

Does anyone know or care to guess what was planned from this?

from my basketball days sometimes when the ball was being put in from off court we would line up like that then break off into a set move to get an easy shot. but i've always wondered what was planned that day.

also i think the french intentionally had the scrum reset because their backs were bricking it over how to defend.

any thoughts?

I'd say they were going for a bit of WTF factor to confuse the French. I would imagine the intention was to force France to split their defense equally between the bind and opensides (I think this is how they did react - I can't quite remember) and all attack down one side in the hope of getting an overlap out wide.

Pity they never tried it again I would have loved to see how it panned out.

Colm_OReilly

They lined all the backs behind each other in Rome as well iirc.

Ulstermell0

dont think so - did they go through with the move?

ozt9vdujny3srf

Remember the fifteen man lineout? Gold.

Diamondmaker

A few other oddities:

1. The disasterous 15 man maul, made famous by our shambolic exit to Argentina in a past RWC

2. Allowing the opposition win a line out, alow them form a maul but DO NOT engagestep back. They can be penalised as you cannot form a maul if there is no oppostion.

3. Not so much an oddity but back on OP, the blitz as mentione above is highg risk. If one man pushes up too soon or others to slow HUGE gaps are left between players advancing at different rates.

Also the blitz is prone ot the dink grubber thro a gap or a chip over, both thes alos carry risks for the oppsotion. An intercepted grubber or chip often leads to a break out try esp, when the team making the turn over has players to support the interceptor as they were all coming up on the line.

Blisterman

What's the difference between a drift defence and a blitz defence.

MunkyHed

The Turf and wedge tactic has been a munster employed tactic. The turf refers to a push up by the back line at the moment the ball is released out of a ruck/maul/scrum. A hard turf would be basically a blitz rush. The wedge refers to the back line drifting with the run of play. Thats my basic understanding anyways.

Stev_o

Blisterman wrote: »

What's the difference between a drift defence and a blitz defence.

Drift defence you move you defenders across the pitch coming up at the opposition at jog pace. Its purpose is that drift defenders are able to cover more width then a normal one on one situation as the drifting defender isnt 100% committed to the man infront of him. Problem is that if your not 100% commiteted your body is not facing directly at him but at diagonal leaving one of your shoulders easy exposed to a dumby or just a well picked line.


Blitz defence is where the defenders rush up on the opposition man to man as quick as possibly to prevent the opposition backs creating. The only real counter to a blitz defence is to have a great OH and IC who can see the space that the defenders have left open ie behind so they chip it over or cross field kick.

damnyanks

gatland brought it in with wasps when he joined , it really screwed everyone and they won the HC as a result

itsallaboutheL

Turf is straight up defence wedge is push out............both used in the same type of defence

jcnytx

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

- Andrew Trimble

Can some of you more enlightened folk explain what a turf wedge & blitz defence tactic is - strengths/weaknesses etc? Also, what's Ireland's? What's the norm in Rugby?

Cheers,
Col

I am very late with this but I thought I would answer anyway as I was doing a search.

The turf wedge is the defense Ireland used under EOS. I think Kidney uses the same. A simple example is 5 attackers vs 3 defenders.

If attacker 1 (A1) comes up on his defender (D1) then D1 calls turf & hits him. If A1 passes to A2 then D1 shifts out to A2, D2 shifts out to A3, & D3 shifts out to A4. If they pas it out again yo wedge once more.

You only wedge until #'s are equal or it is man on man. Once that is achieved a call is made (hit) & the defense is now a blitz defense & all come up hard & in an ideal world hammers the ball carrier.

Pinetree Boy

Ulstermell0 wrote: »

slightly OT but on a tactical front (and its probably not worth its own thread)

does anyone remember last years 6N against france when we had a scrum (our ball) in the middle of the pitch and the backs lined up one behind the other? the scrum had to be reset for some violation and then they lined up normally and as far as i know they have never tried it again.

Does anyone know or care to guess what was planned from this?

from my basketball days sometimes when the ball was being put in from off court we would line up like that then break off into a set move to get an easy shot. but i've always wondered what was planned that day.

also i think the french intentionally had the scrum reset because their backs were bricking it over how to defend.

any thoughts?

I remember the ABs doing this back in the days of John Hart. The idea is that the defenders do not know which way to split so you can create an overlap one side or the other. From memory I only saw it once and it didn't come off.

subfreq

Drift is always nerve wrecking to watch live when you can see the entire defensive line and the free space facing the attacking lineup. It never looks like the cover will make it until the last second.

Is the Umbrella just a variation of the Blitz with the outside backs rushing further up to cover their man instead of holding a flat line?

Eoin

Diamondmaker wrote: »

2. Allowing the opposition win a line out, alow them form a maul but DO NOT engagestep back. They can be penalised as you cannot form a maul if there is no oppostion.

Am I correct in thinking that a defensive player can then go around and tackle the ball carrier at the back, as no maul has formed?

barnesd

A well executed blitz is probably the best defence going at the moment but if you miss a tackle/the attackers successfully chip&chase/get it wide fast enough to get around the blitz, the defence is going to be in big trouble. Get in behind a blitz and you're usually in open country.

gearstick

Ulstermell0 wrote: »

slightly OT but on a tactical front (and its probably not worth its own thread)

does anyone remember last years 6N against france when we had a scrum (our ball) in the middle of the pitch and the backs lined up one behind the other? the scrum had to be reset for some violation and then they lined up normally and as far as i know they have never tried it again.

Does anyone know or care to guess what was planned from this?

from my basketball days sometimes when the ball was being put in from off court we would line up like that then break off into a set move to get an easy shot. but i've always wondered what was planned that day.

also i think the french intentionally had the scrum reset because their backs were bricking it over how to defend.

any thoughts?

im pretty sure ive seen this a few times under EOS but it never actually happened due to scrums collapsing etc. i believe the intention was to all run one side to create an overlap, but we never got to see it.

as for the defences, the blitz relies heavily on man-on-man tackles being made, and as a result is considered the high risk/high gain option. te drift defense is the safer option as it more of a team effort where a defener knows he has cover on both sides