Dunboyne rail link to start this year

redstar

Full story from the Meath Chronicle;

http://www.meathchronicle.ie/story.asp?stID=2296&cid=126&cid2=


And, as for extending the link to Navan ...

... Navan Councillor Tommy Reilly also welcomed the progress so far but warned that Iarnród Éireann must end its `do minimum` attitude to reinstating the line in its entirety to Navan.
"The reopening of the line to Dunboyne is a welcome development that will see the first step in a rail service that will allow the people of Meath to have a decent quality of life without being constantly stuck in traffic for hours each day," said Colr Reilly.
However, he cautioned that "institutional negativity" in Iarnród Éireann could continue to hamper progress on reinstating the remaining 18 miles to Dunshaughlin and Navan.
"I hope that the State rail company remembers that its responsibilities to the people of Meath does not stop in Dunboyne, and that their brief from the Minister for Transport is to get passenger trains rolling into Navan by 2012," he said.

MrJoeSoap

Great news once they find a way to increase the capacity of the existing line from Clonsilla (and hence Maynooth) into town.

Victor

Docklands Station takes care of that for the moment. The problem on the Maynooth line at the moment is the lack of rolling stock and lack of connections from Docklands.

An Bord Pleanála documentation here: http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/NA0001.htm

Irish Rail information here: http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dunboyne_commuter_rail.asp

MrJoeSoap

Yeah Docklands is a god-send these days. It services the Docklands (duh), East Wall, Clontarf and a lot of people I know use it as a less crowded alternative to get into the City Centre at the moment. If Littlepace/Dunboyne were to be added to the line though, it would need a major rethink, timetable-wise.

Irish and Proud

redstar wrote: »

Full story from the Meath Chronicle;

http://www.meathchronicle.ie/story.asp?stID=2296&cid=126&cid2=


And, as for extending the link to Navan ...

Good!

Now, what about a limited Dart service (maybe every 20 or 30 mins until the interconnector is built) from Maynooth to Connolly (platform 7), and a frequent shuttle bus from Coolmine to Blanchardstown SC. Also, can the Docklands commuter line (from Prospect to Spencer Dock) be electrified or is bridge clearance (at Eastwall, Ballybough, Drumcondra, Phibsboro etc) a problem? If so, can some Darts be adapted to use a live rail instead (might discourage trespassing! )? It would be interesting!

Regards!

loyatemu

this has some merit - they're going to electrify the Maynooth line in the next few years, Dunboyne should be built as a Dart line too.

Skyhater

loyatemu wrote: »

this has some merit - they're going to electrify the Maynooth line in the next few years, Dunboyne should be built as a Dart line too.

That is the post interconnector plan.... Darts running from Dunboyne/Maynooth to Bray/Graystones.
Until the interconnector is build, there's no point putting darts from Dunboyne into connolly as there limited capacity at connolly.... That's why Dunboyne will start with trains into Docklands (the current Docklands > Clonsilla service)

Nostradamus

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Yeah Docklands is a god-send these days.

Very true, just don't give the credit to the visionaries at CIE or Irish Rail for this as it's not theirs to take.

A handful of nobodies came up with the idea and sold it to everybody from the East Wall Community Groups to the Oireachtas Transport Commitee. Irish Rail/CIE resisted the idea completely for years. Even then, they wired it into the rail network in such a way to stifle its long term potential. I am not sure whose idea the 10 year planning permission was as well, but that was a stinky tactic too.

The Phoenix Park Tunnel and a station at Phisborough is only a matter of time as well. Just wait and see.

The reason why Docklands has a station now, Sligo has proper inter-city trains, and Limerick to Galway will be rail connected again, and the Navan line are coming is despite Irish Rail, not because of them.

CIE prior to 2001/2 would of been perfectly happy to let the network disintegrate into ruin if there was no outside forces doing their R&D work for free. Mary O'Rourke deserves huge credit as well for forcing them to think beyond their myopia and giving them serious money in the late 1990's.

loyatemu

Skyhater wrote: »

That is the post interconnector plan.... Darts running from Dunboyne/Maynooth to Bray/Graystones.
Until the interconnector is build, there's no point putting darts from Dunboyne into connolly as there limited capacity at connolly.... That's why Dunboyne will start with trains into Docklands (the current Docklands > Clonsilla service)

My point is it has to be easier to electrify a line whilst you are building it than it is to retrofit the overhead wires. Even if they only put up the wires on the new stretch and just used diesel trains until the maynooth-docklands line is wired, at least they'd have that bit done already.

Electrifying Maynooth\Dunboyne-Docklands could be done a lot quicker than building the interconnector and is not in any way reliant on the tunnel being built.

MrJoeSoap

Nostradamus wrote: »

The Phoenix Park Tunnel and a station at Phisborough is only a matter of time as well. Just wait and see.

I just don't trust your username!

Skyhater

loyatemu wrote: »

My point is it has to be easier to electrify a line whilst you are building it than it is to retrofit the overhead wires. Even if they only put up the wires on the new stretch and just used diesel trains until the maynooth-docklands line is wired, at least they'd have that bit done already.

Electrifying Maynooth\Dunboyne-Docklands could be done a lot quicker than building the interconnector and is not in any way reliant on the tunnel being built.

True, but you wouldn't gain much with electric over diesel (except a few seconds acceleration & decelerations, and some reliability improvements).
The real gain will happen when city centre capacity is freed up.

I agree that it would probably make more sense to install overhead cables during Clonsilla>Dunboyne during initial constructions....bet it's some stupid budgetary reason why they're not.

I don't understand your point around "Electrifying Maynooth\Dunboyne - Docklands". There are no plans in place to run dart's into the current docklands station.

marmajam

loyatemu wrote: »

My point is it has to be easier to electrify a line whilst you are building it than it is to retrofit the overhead wires. Even if they only put up the wires on the new stretch and just used diesel trains until the maynooth-docklands line is wired, at least they'd have that bit done already.

Electrifying Maynooth\Dunboyne-Docklands could be done a lot quicker than building the interconnector and is not in any way reliant on the tunnel being built.

99% of poster on this site fit into 2 categories.
Cat. 1: everything is the end of the world, a world full of village idiots.
Cat 2: uninformed popes who are full of half baked half thought out plans.

Loyatemu is mostly from cat 2. If he informed himself about the planning studies for the IC and electrification of Maynooth line he'd save me the time of reading his twaddle. Electrifying the Dunboyne spur while laying the tracks is not necessarily easier. Life in the real world is not like that. It's not the same as buying a bag of sugar while you get a copy of the sun to save 2 trips to the shop. These issues are being considered by IE. You don't need much brains to notice that possibility.

paulm17781

marmajam wrote: »

99% of poster on this site fit into 2 categories.
Cat. 1: everything is the end of the world, a world full of village idiots.
Cat 2: uninformed popes who are full of half baked half thought out plans.

I take it your the other 1% then? Tell us Pope of boards, what are they?

marmajam

paulm17781 wrote: »

I take it your the other 1% then? Tell us Pope of boards, what are they?

he he. spelling and grammer a credit to a village idiot.:)

Calina

marmajam wrote: »

99% of poster on this site fit into 2 categories.
Cat. 1: everything is the end of the world, a world full of village idiots.
Cat 2: uninformed popes who are full of half baked half thought out plans.

Loyatemu is mostly from cat 2. If he informed himself about the planning studies for the IC and electrification of Maynooth line he'd save me the time of reading his twaddle. Electrifying the Dunboyne spur while laying the tracks is not necessarily easier. Life in the real world is not like that. It's not the same as buying a bag of sugar while you get a copy of the sun to save 2 trips to the shop. These issues are being considered by IE. You don't need much brains to notice that possibility.

marmajam, you are not going to endear yourself to the community if you insult the lot of them like this.

Consider this a warning to drop the patronising tone. It is not nice.

Victor

Skyhater wrote: »

I agree that it would probably make more sense to install overhead cables during Clonsilla>Dunboyne during initial constructions....bet it's some stupid budgetary reason why they're not.

Budget, yes, but also they can't understand having Clonsilla-Dunboyne electrified before Connolly-Clonsilla. As construction of a railway is essentially sequential, electrifying Clonsilla-Dunboyne takes no extra time during construction. However, it has the potential of substantial disruption afterwards. Even if they did the (a) column bases or (b) column bases and columns now (and wiring later), it would mean not doing excavation next to a live railway. One saving grace is that they could do one side at a time off-peak, with live running on the other track (subject to signalling and track layout), but its messy.

I don't understand your point around "Electrifying Maynooth\Dunboyne - Docklands". There are no plans in place to run dart's into the current docklands station.

There would be no real harm in doing so.

Nostradamus wrote: »

I am not sure whose idea the 10 year planning permission was as well, but that was a stinky tactic too.

That would have been me. It forces them to have the Interconnector in place

Mary O'Rourke deserves huge credit ....

I partially disagree. She and her colleagues also sat in their laurels while Luas was under construction.

marmajam

Calina wrote: »

marmajam, you are not going to endear yourself to the community if you insult the lot of them like this.

Consider this a warning to drop the patronising tone. It is not nice.

Calina, my dear (!), yes I guess the forum in effect is a community. I like to have a glance at it for links to interesting transport developments.
Though my ultra sensitive sensibilites are assaulted by the tsunami of tin pot negativity regarding schemes, and naive appreciation of circumstances in the real world.
Very Oirish, sadly.
This mentality itself is one of the main blocks to
improving anything - self fulfilling prophecies.
I'd be indifferent to belonging to that community and not desiring popularity.

spacetweek

Skyhater wrote: »

I agree that it would probably make more sense to install overhead cables during Clonsilla>Dunboyne during initial constructions....bet it's some stupid budgetary reason why they're not.

I'll get back to you with a link, but I'm pretty sure they are going to do this. Or at least the poles and substations.

Victor

I sat through the Oral Hearing. The only provision for electrification is the purchase of land for the substations.

paulm17781

marmajam wrote: »

Calina, my dear (!), yes I guess the forum in effect is a community. I like to have a glance at it for links to interesting transport developments.
Though my ultra sensitive sensibilites are assaulted by the tsunami of tin pot negativity regarding schemes, and naive appreciation of circumstances in the real world.
Very Oirish, sadly.
This mentality itself is one of the main blocks to
improving anything - self fulfilling prophecies.
I'd be indifferent to belonging to that community and not desiring popularity.

Tell us wise one, where are your ideas and campaigns? People here have ideas that maybe good or not, some of us write to politicians, get involved in lobby groups etc. What great things are you doing other than posting here? Either way, keep up the good work champ.

marmajam

paulm17781 wrote: »

Tell us wise one, where are your ideas and campaigns? People here have ideas that maybe good or not, some of us write to politicians, get involved in lobby groups etc. What great things are you doing other than posting here? Either way, keep up the good work champ.

Paulm -any person who actively campaigns for improved transport infrastructure deserves all credit. No doubt you are in that category.
However the majority on this forum are not within 100 light years of any serious invovement with transport planning matters.
They constitute that brainless clan of pub talk cynics. As said before they remind me of those decrepit paddys of a generation ago who'd visit back from the London building sites, slagging off everything Oirish.
It was a reflection of the negative course of their own life.
As a true champ, I can tell you that in reality things are neither good or bad they are just the way they are. It is you own good and bad you see in them. You would'nt understand it.
Now, all this negativity is no big deal - it is their own funeral - except it actually hinders somewhat any attempted improvements in effect in the real world. There's not much votes in transport infrastructure. That's the reality of Irish culture. In fact, brave decisions to build for the future are slagged off for political purposes and used as a stick to beat any well meaning planner. Examples are legion.
For the 3 billion spent on the metro north - which will be mercilessly slagged off as , too dear, too disruptive, too annoying for big frankie macdonald, too under capacity, over budget, too late, etc etc etc a government could buy vast amounts of votes around the country with cheap populist whizzes.
The negativity is really trying to make yourself look good by displaying your superiority to the ludramauns who are clearly responsible for the present chaos.
But there's no real chaos.
As soon as one perceived problem is solved another will fill the vacuum immediately and the process will never end.
As said, you would'nt understand it.

paulm17781

marmajam wrote: »

<snip>
As soon as one perceived problem is solved another will fill the vacuum immediately and the process will never end.
As said, you would'nt understand it.

But that is just the reality of politics, it isn't even close to being uniquely Irish. I have English friends in London who talk about the same issues with different politicians etc Australia, the US all the same. It's nothing new and it will exist, it is human nature. Clearly you're right and I don't understand it. It's good to know that you are unique in being completely outside of this aspect of human nature and have better things to do than post about it on message boards.


How is Dunboyne going to be layed? I see an advantage in putting all the electrification equipment in place now only to save closures down the line. There is no need to power it but I recall the DART weekend closures and a lot of that was replacing the power lines. I do agree that running DARTs on the line is pointless until the IC though.

marmajam

paulm17781 wrote: »

But that is just the reality of politics, it isn't even close to being uniquely Irish. I have English friends in London who talk about the same issues with different politicians etc Australia, the US all the same. It's nothing new and it will exist, it is human nature. Clearly you're right and I don't understand it. It's good to know that you are unique in being completely outside of this aspect of human nature and have better things to do than post about it on message boards.


How is Dunboyne going to be layed? I see an advantage in putting all the electrification equipment in place now only to save closures down the line. There is no need to power it but I recall the DART weekend closures and a lot of that was replacing the power lines. I do agree that running DARTs on the line is pointless until the IC though.

Yes I am one of the lucky ones born without these delusions .........
The UK, Oz, USA is not the major part of the world.
Because others do it, well, then, don't question me?
Britain is very similar to Ireland though Ireland is particularly bad. These particular problems are not universal actually.
I'm not offering any solution, just making observations.
Regarding Dunboyne, it's amazing the hot air being spouted by posters with no real information about what's actually happening. Try to speak to somebody in the IE project team as I'm not going to go into the issues re the simultaneous electrification and laying of the track - too long to go into.
In a theoretical world yes it would be a good idea. But..........
Interesting how the armchair planners in this forum are the 'only' ones who have noticed the issue of doing both together. While, uniquely, the people who actually work on these projects in the real world, are obviously born idiots to whom such dazzling insights are beyond them.
Get a grip.

tenandtracer

marmajam wrote: »

he he. spelling and grammer a credit to a village idiot.:)

grammar?


grammer!

marmajam

tenandtracer wrote: »

grammar?


grammer!

ha ha. not even a village idiot, me.

gjim

I'm not offering any solution, just making observations.
Regarding Dunboyne, it's amazing the hot air being spouted by posters with no real information about what's actually happening. Try to speak to somebody in the IE project team as I'm not going to go into the issues re the simultaneous electrification and laying of the track - too long to go into.

"too long to go into"? Your dismissive vitriol against all the perceived idiots here and in the country generally would probably be sufferable if you actually contributed some information also.

invincibleirish

marmajam wrote: »

They constitute that brainless clan of pub talk cynics. As said before they remind me of those decrepit paddys of a generation ago who'd visit back from the London building sites, slagging off everything Oirish.
It was a reflection of the negative course of their own life.
As a true champ, I can tell you that in reality things are neither good or bad they are just the way they are.

your some **** stirrer marmajam, tell me what exactly qualifies you as an expert, no doubt you are involved in infrastructural planning & decision making at the highest levels? or are you one of those FF party hacks who see black when everyone else sees white

Victor

marmajam wrote: »

No doubt you are in that category.
However the majority on this forum are not within 100 light years of any serious invovement with transport planning matters.

This is an internet bulletin board - obviously anyone can post.

However, to say that the more committed members have no input into change is wrong - and insulting. Whether its a small thing like giving people directions or advice or bigger things like campaigning, making submissions and telling the powers that be "X, Y or Z is wrong, can you fix it?" Even if we get all of X, some of Y and none of Z, at least things have progressed. Things will be better than yesterday.

Tell me, what have you done, other than moan here that we are ineffective?

marmajam

Victor wrote: »

This is an internet bulletin board - obviously anyone can post.

However, to say that the more committed members have no input into change is wrong - and insulting. Whether its a small thing like giving people directions or advice or bigger things like campaigning, making submissions and telling the powers that be "X, Y or Z is wrong, can you fix it?" Even if we get all of X, some of Y and none of Z, at least things have progressed. Things will be better than yesterday.

Tell me, what have you done, other than moan here that we are ineffective?

Are you talking to me!!?

The advice, directions etc, the activist members are fine. Yiz are really wondeful people. I'm not bothered with you. The brainless-seeing-everything-as-the-end-of -he-world congregation make me take the sips out of them.
That and the Ireland rugby team are on the blacklist.
Have hope for the rugby team, mind.

paulm17781

marmajam wrote: »

ha ha. not even a village idiot, me.

I'm not sure if your posts are satire or a desperate need to leave the glass house. Either way, please tell us the reason why putting the OHLE in place while laying the Dunboyne line isn't a good idea. The only 'good' reason I can think of is because of the way they are funded, if they do both something else has to suffer as a result they spread their funding to maximize it's benefit. If this is the case, it goes back to what many of us here are saying, it is the Government's fault that our public transport is so bad. Our reasons to complain would be that all the projects should be funded correctly from day one, not that the planners don't know what they're doing. Now is this your reason, am I completely missing your point or is it one that I won't understand?

marmajam

paulm17781 wrote: »

I'm not sure if your posts are satire or a desperate need to leave the glass house. Either way, please tell us the reason why putting the OHLE in place while laying the Dunboyne line isn't a good idea. The only 'good' reason I can think of is because of the way they are funded, if they do both something else has to suffer as a result they spread their funding to maximize it's benefit. If this is the case, it goes back to what many of us here are saying, it is the Government's fault that our public transport is so bad. Our reasons to complain would be that all the projects should be funded correctly from day one, not that the planners don't know what they're doing. Now is this your reason, am I completely missing your point or is it one that I won't understand?

It's not the Gov.'s fault. I'm not particularly a FF supporter. The system mitigates against long term planning for a host of reasons.
We don't have a system with somebody sitting in a palace issuing edicts. That was tried and does'nt work too well. There's a No of players vying for funds, rescoping is risky in practice, in a year things might be very different.
Re Dunboyne there's a complex of inter related issues. It would cost more money for not a lot of gain to do Dunboyne separately. Also a new RPO would be needed which complicates things and there's urgency to get the PACE P&R up. Even if the electical work was done for the Dunboyne spur, the rest of the Connolly to Maynooth work will have to be done on a live line........so having the spur done does'nt help a lot. The disruption is not necessarily major, a lot of work can be done without seriously disrupting regular services. And other work can be done at night.

Victor

IÉ would electrify the line immediately if the could, although they would like to tie it in with Clonsilla-Connolly. They aren't because of money.

marmajam wrote: »

It's not the Gov.'s fault. I'm not particularly a FF supporter. The system mitigates against long term planning for a host of reasons.

The government controls the system.

There's a No of players vying for funds, rescoping is risky in practice, in a year things might be very different.

Its a matter of spending X now or more than X later for the same work and add in disruption and safety issues - for exactly the same work.

Re Dunboyne there's a complex of inter related issues. It would cost more money for not a lot of gain to do Dunboyne separately.

The trick is to have some work of each kind going at any given time. Otherwise, you require foreign expertise to be brought in, at a cost.

Also a new RPO would be needed which complicates things and there's urgency to get the PACE P&R up.

No. Electrification doesn't need any planning permission at all. PP would only be needed for any structures involved - primarily substations.

Even if the electical work was done for the Dunboyne spur, the rest of the Connolly to Maynooth work will have to be done on a live line........so having the spur done does'nt help a lot.

So you do recognise that working on a live line is harder?

The disruption is not necessarily major, a lot of work can be done without seriously disrupting regular services.

It quite possibly means single track running for an extended period at off-peak times and extra safety staff to warn of approaching trains.

And other work can be done at night.

At a cost.

marmajam

Victor wrote: »

IÉ would electrify the line immediately if the could, although they would like to tie it in with Clonsilla-Connolly. They aren't because of money.

The government controls the system.
Its a matter of spending X now or more than X later for the same work and add in disruption and safety issues - for exactly the same work.
The trick is to have some work of each kind going at any given time. Otherwise, you require foreign expertise to be brought in, at a cost.
No. Electrification doesn't need any planning permission at all. PP would only be needed for any structures involved - primarily substations.
So you do recognise that working on a live line is harder?
It quite possibly means single track running for an extended period at off-peak times and extra safety staff to warn of approaching trains.
At a cost.

I answered the question because it felt unfair to criticise without giving any reason.
All your points are incorrect Victor, though you seem to see yourself as the authority here with a need to prove it. Though it's clear to me that you have no real knowledge of what is going on inside IE in relation to this project.
I'm wasting my time her and have nothing more to say on this.

paulm17781

marmajam wrote: »

I answered the question because it felt unfair to criticise without giving any reason.
All your points are incorrect Victor, though you seem to see yourself as the authority here with a need to prove it. Though it's clear to me that you have no real knowledge of what is going on inside IE in relation to this project.
I'm wasting my time her and have nothing more to say on this.

Bye!

markpb

marmajam wrote: »

I'm wasting my time her and have nothing more to say on this.

Bye then.

If you can answer people's questions or correct their misunderstandings, do so. Sitting on the fence telling them they're wrong and you know better while not actually proving it or contributing anything to the conversation is a waste of your time and ours.

loyatemu

marmajam wrote: »

Though it's clear to me that you have no real knowledge of what is going on inside IE in relation to this project.

why would he, or anyone else here have detailed knowledge of internal IE politics or budgetary issues?

I've suggested that (budgetary constraints aside) it would make sense to put the OHLE infrastructure in place while building the line. Your only argument against this seems to be that it wouldn't get used immediately and it would only be slightly more complicated to do it afterwards

Ignoring the troll, my point about electrifying Maynooth-Docklands was this: they are planning to electrify Maynooth-Connolly including the MGWR line - it would be ridiculous if they didn't also do the last 500m of line into Docklands at the same time.

Having done that they could run additional Dart services on this line into Docklands (much as they have been running diesel services Clonsilla-Docklands). Once the tunnel is open and the 2 Dart lines are reconfigured these additional services would become Maynooth-Bray.

paulm17781

loyatemu wrote: »

Ignoring the troll, my point about electrifying Maynooth-Docklands was this: they are planning to electrify Maynooth-Connolly including the MGWR line - it would be ridiculous if they didn't also do the last 500m of line into Docklands at the same time.

Having done that they could run additional Dart services on this line into Docklands (much as they have been running diesel services Clonsilla-Docklands). Once the tunnel is open and the 2 Dart lines are reconfigured these additional services would become Maynooth-Bray.

But there is no point on this. There is no environmental saving (oil powered country) and it is additional cost with no benefit. I agree that Dunboyne should be kitted out from day one but elecritification is not the wonder most people think it is and would have little benefit other than faster acceleration. If they do keep Spencer mock permanently then it should be done but there is no point electrifying it now.

marmajam

Dogs may bark, but the caravan moves on.:)

DWCommuter

marmajam wrote: »

Dogs may bark, but the caravan moves on.:)

And hopefully its not moving on to a caravan site anywhere near me.:D

Calina

On topic posting or a heavier hand on the moderating.

Your choice.

DWCommuter

Who's choice? Mine alone or all of us?

Calina

I operate on a case by case basis as in I could lock the thread but that wouldn't be fair to the number of constructive posters in it given that they outnumber the non-constructive posters by a fair proportion.