Article: Dirty number plates in line for penalty points

Seth Brundle

from here...

Dirty number plates in line for penalty points

David Labanyi
TALKS ARE underway to make dirty or obscured number plates a penalty point offence in advance of the introduction of new privatised speed cameras and number plate reading technology.
The head of the Garda Traffic Corps, Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock, said many registration plates had numbers "so small you can't read them and the automated systems won't read them and we want to have a fixed penalty for that".
The Assistant Commissioner said allocating penalty points to the offence would reduce the amount of time gardaí would have to spend in court.
"We want to try and get [ obscured number plate offences] out of the courts," he said.
Talks on the project have already taken place between the Road Safety Authority and the Revenue Commissioners.
A Revenue spokeswoman said talks on drafting "a composite set of regulations in relation to all number plate offences have been initiated". The fine for having an incorrectly sized or obscured number plate was increased in this year's Finance Act to €5,000, from €1,250. The size, format, colour and dimensions of number plates are regulated by VRT legislation.
Any legislative change to make this a penalty point offence would require legislation to be brought forward from the Department of Transport.
Last week, the Cabinet finally approved funding approval for the procurement of privatised speed cameras, although a row over the cost of the scheme means the cameras will not be in place before October at the earliest.
© 2008 The Irish Times

eringobragh

Wasn't peanlty points brought in as a safety measure.

How is having dirty number plates make you or your car less safer :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

To benefit speed safety cameras!

Cmar-Ireland

So, before this change I presume they will also make builders and farmers etc clean up the roads after them :rolleyes:

The state of the roads in this country mean that you could spend a few hours cleaning your car only to drive a few kms up a road behind a mucky truck or tractor and have your plates obscured.

Nothing to do with safety, just another way to sponge money out of motorists

NeMiSiS

Ever drove the N81 in the rain,or snow, or when its sunny (dust storms!)for that matter.
You're car ends up looking like it's been pulled from a swamp.
Markings on the road itself ar eoften obscured by muck and dirt too.

TK

Anan1

eringobragh wrote: »

How is having dirty number plates make you or your car less safer :rolleyes:

Because the knowledge that one's plate is illegible might make one less worried about cameras?

eringobragh

Anan1 wrote: »

Because the knowledge that one's plate is illegible might make one less worried about cameras?

Granted that ,but unless they make us fit wipers onto reg plates how over the space of a ..let say 3 hour trip will you know that your plates are dirty...This country just gets better by the day.:mad:

Anan1

eringobragh wrote: »

Granted that ,but unless they make us fit wipers onto reg plates how over the space of a ..let say 3 hour trip will you know that your plates are dirty...This country just gets better by the day.:mad:

I'd imagine the cameras will be good enough not to have a problem with plates unless they're completely obscured by muck. I don't think it's going to be a tax on plates that just aren't shiny enough!;)

Steve

There are also lots of ve-hicles with conveniently placed towbars and bike carriers not to mention trailers with no plates or badly handwritten numbers on them.

I would think this is what they are aiming at.

Modern scameras can see through a fair bit of dirt as they use a combination of IR and visible light to take the picture.

the evil belly

i'd imagine it's for something like this



rather than something like this

http://www.bootlehens.co.uk/carsticker.JPG

now that i think about it i'm pretty sure some of our jeeps have been fined/given a bollicking as they've come off site with dirty plates.

Alun

There's a difference between just a bit dirty and taking the piss with one completely obscured by a thick layer of filth.

Any way, AFAIK, it's, quite rightly, an offence in most countries to have an illegible (for whatever reason) number plate, so maybe go easy on the 'it could only happen here' comments

Cmar-Ireland

That mud could have another use, maybe to cover the cameras...:D:D:D

furtzy

Alun wrote: »

There's a difference between just a bit dirty and taking the piss with one completely obscured by a thick layer of filth.

Any way, AFAIK, it's, quite rightly, an offence in most countries to have an illegible (for whatever reason) number plate, so maybe go easy on the 'it could only happen here' comments

Got stopped by a garda in Dublin years ago for this. Was living on a building site at the time and number plate was covered in muck.....it was a fair cop and I had no problem with it. Hopefully they'll sort out all of the illegal font number plates as well....some of them are ridiculous. Try driving around the UK with your italic script font plate, you would definitely get pulled

Gregor Samsa

eringobragh wrote: »

Wasn't peanlty points brought in as a safety measure.

How is having dirty number plates make you or your car less safer :rolleyes:

A few of the offenses that are provided for in the penalty point legislation(Road Traffic Act 2002), but aren't active yet, including "Failure to produce licence" and "Giving false or misleading details when applying for licence" aren't necessairily to do with road safety either.

Personally, I'd like to see them to bring in the points for "Worn or defective tyres", "Inadequate brakes" and "Vehicle not equipped with required lights", as they're already provided for under the RTA 2002, but I don't have any issue with points for seriously obscured or illegible plates. You might as well be driving without plates as have an inch of mud caked on them.

Wishbone Ash

stevec wrote: »

There are also lots of ve-hicles with conveniently placed towbars and bike carriers

...and motorcyclists with the tax disc cover obscuring part of the plate or those motorcyclists who place their hand over the plate while going through speed cameras.

Alun wrote: »

Any way, AFAIK, it's, quite rightly, an offence in most countries to have an illegible (for whatever reason) number plate, so maybe go easy on the 'it could only happen here' comments

Agree - it never ceases to amaze me that we always have motorists who say "only in Ireland" to any new peice of legislation. Most of these regulations are in place for many years in other countries. It's time Irish motorists started taking responsibility for themselves and stop constantly blaming the democratically elected Government.

astraboy

Fair enough, it should probably be an offence. But getting points for it is ridiculous. A warning or a small fine would suffice. By giving points for stupid offences that endanger no one, like not carrying your license or a dirty number plate, it reduces the value of the whole system. I don't want to see peoples insurance going up for something silly like this. 1 or 2 points for a dirty number plate, 2 points for not wearing a seatbelt. Which is more dangerous?! Fools, its just to stop people covering up their plates in case they don't get screwed by our precious safety cameras. :rolleyes:

I can see my plates being "muddy" from now on when the cameras come in.

My problem is they are putting in this law in time to ensure the camera system works, it has nothing to do with anyones safety. Enforcing the other points offenses correctly and implementing the ones actually about road safety would help, instead of protecting a handy future revenue stream like they are now.

eringobragh

DIdn't they sell it in the uk some guy "invented" spray on mud

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,67794,00.html

WHITE_P

Will creating / leaving excessive dirt / mud, etc. on the roads, be made an offence. I often come accross mud and slurry etc. spilled all over the roads and no one appears to bothered to try and clean it up. Aside from this dirt getting all over your car, it also represents a dangerous hazzard that could cause accidents.

Again the state is just going after the soft target. Easier to proscute a driver for a dirty reg plate, than to go after an indiviual / company that may be putting peoples lives at risk by their carelessness.

Cmar-Ireland

WHITE_P wrote: »

Will creating / leaving excessive dirt / mud, etc. on the roads, be made an offence. I often come accross mud and slurry etc. spilled all over the roads and no one appears to bothered to try and clean it up. Aside from this dirt getting all over your car, it also represents a dangerous hazzard that could cause accidents.

Again the state is just going after the soft target. Easier to proscute a driver for a dirty reg plate, than to go after an indiviual / company that may be putting peoples lives at risk by their carelessness.

Exactly!

If you skidded on mud outside a building site, could you have a case against the builder for leaving the road in an unsafe condition?

faceman

im all for this, dont see what the fuss is

Wishbone Ash

Cmar-Ireland wrote: »

If you skidded on mud outside a building site, could you have a case against the builder for leaving the road in an unsafe condition?

More of the "blame someone else" mentality.

While the depositor of debris on a public road may be required to employ a street sweeper, those of us who are responsible motorists will have adapted our driving to the prevailing conditions and will be aware of the possibility of slippery surfaces in the vicinity of building sites.

Similarly, those of us who are responsible motorists will always ensure that our registration plates are legible. We don't need the threat of penalty points to do so.

Alun

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

More of the "blame someone else" mentality.

While the depositor of debris on a public road may be required to employ a street sweeper, those of us who are responsible motorists will have adapted our driving to the prevailing conditions and will be aware of the possibility of slippery surfaces in the vicinity of building sites.

Similarly, those of us who are responsible motorists will always ensure that our registration plates are legible. We don't need the threat of penalty points to do so.

+1

If you stop for petrol and see that it's dirty, then just damn well clean it. If the road's that dirty, you'll probably have to clean your lights as well, so just do that at the same time. Easy.

agent_smith

Actually I would like to chip in here regarding the 'state of the road's comments.
I'm both a motorcyclist and a cager! Muck and dirt outside a buildsite on public roads is a major safety hazzard for me on the bike (it is in a car as well... but the danger is exponential on a bike).
The amount of times i would drive up the n81 and have to consistantly stop to wipe the visor of my helmet is not funny.
As for adapting to the conditions, you are absolutely correct. Most road users shoud adapt to the conditions. However, there is and always will be the possability for human error to occur, such as the case you could around a blind bend, and discover that traffic has stopped in front of you. You apply the brakes but because of muck and other slippy substances on the road your braking distance increases. The state of the road IMHO shoudl always provide a road user a good margin to recover from a mistake cause lets face it mistakes/accidents do happen.

WHITE_P

agent_smith wrote: »

Actually I would like to chip in here regarding the 'state of the road's comments.
I'm both a motorcyclist and a cager! Muck and dirt outside a buildsite on public roads is a major safety hazzard for me on the bike (it is in a car as well... but the danger is exponential on a bike).
The amount of times i would drive up the n81 and have to consistantly stop to wipe the visor of my helmet is not funny.
As for adapting to the conditions, you are absolutely correct. Most road users shoud adapt to the conditions. However, there is and always will be the possability for human error to occur, such as the case you could around a blind bend, and discover that traffic has stopped in front of you. You apply the brakes but because of muck and other slippy substances on the road your braking distance increases. The state of the road IMHO shoudl always provide a road user a good margin to recover from a mistake cause lets face it mistakes/accidents do happen.

+1

Cmar-Ireland

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

More of the "blame someone else" mentality.

While the depositor of debris on a public road may be required to employ a street sweeper, those of us who are responsible motorists will have adapted our driving to the prevailing conditions and will be aware of the possibility of slippery surfaces in the vicinity of building sites.

Similarly, those of us who are responsible motorists will always ensure that our registration plates are legible. We don't need the threat of penalty points to do so.

If you implying I'm an unsafe driver, then you are quite incorrect.
However, I stand by my comments. Builders and farmers should be accountable for the crap they leave on the roads. (Not just builders and farmers I hasten to add).

Most, if not all responsible drivers take all road conditions into account, but I for one have on many occasions have had to take avoiding action coming round bends on country roads, only to find clumps of muck, turf, sugar beet etc etc in the middle of the road.

WHITE_P

Cmar-Ireland wrote: »

If you implying I'm an unsafe driver, then you are quite incorrect.
However, I stand by my comments. Builders and farmers should be accountable for the crap they leave on the roads. (Not just builders and farmers I hasten to add).

Most, if not all responsible drivers take all road conditions into account, but I for one have on many occasions have had to take avoiding action coming round bends on country roads, only to find clumps of muck, turf, sugar beet etc etc in the middle of the road.

Yep, been there had that, mud and crap all over the road on or just after a blind bend. Maybe wishbone ash dosen't get out of the city much.

D_murph

WHITE_P wrote: »

Yep, been there had that, mud and crap all over the road on or just after a blind bend. Maybe wishbone ash dosen't get out of the city much.

+1.

i believe that a few fines imposed on the people that leave the road in this condition and dont clean it up would go a long way instead of "cleaning up" on motorists who have to pay road tax and now fines because the road that we all pay to use has been plastered and our plates might be dirty because of someone else :rolleyes:

on the other hand, im not surprised at the fact that something like this could happen after the scameras were given the go ahead either

very timely IMO

WHITE_P

Matt Cooper is going to be discussing this on Today FM in a few minutes.

Wishbone Ash

WHITE_P wrote: »

Maybe wishbone ash dosen't get out of the city much.

:rolleyes:

Traumadoc

Every winter people skid on mud left when the beet is harvested. I have treated numerous people who have crashed when they skidded on this mud.

javaboy

Traumadoc wrote: »

Every winter people skid on mud left when the beet is harvested. I have treated numerous people who have crashed when they skidded on this mud.

As WA said earlier "those of us who are responsible motorists will have adapted our driving to the prevailing conditions". If the mud is there every winter shouldn't the locals realise that? Obviously the odd tourist will be caught by surprise

To the poster who complained about coming around a bend to see traffic stopped and skidding in a load of mud, aren't you supposed to only travel at a speed that will allow you to stop in the distance ahead that you can see to be clear? I've come across roaming sheep, crashed cars, nattering neighbours etc. around bends but I've always been able to stop in time.

Traumadoc

javaboy wrote: »

As WA said earlier "those of us who are responsible motorists will have adapted our driving to the prevailing conditions". If the mud is there every winter shouldn't the locals realise that? Obviously the odd tourist will be caught by surprise

To the poster who complained about coming around a bend to see traffic stopped and skidding in a load of mud, aren't you supposed to only travel at a speed that will allow you to stop in the distance ahead that you can see to be clear? I've come across roaming sheep, crashed cars, nattering neighbours etc. around bends but I've always been able to stop in time.

Why does the council grit the road in icy conditions its obviously a complete waste of money- not needed at all.

the_syco

I liken checks for a dirty number plate on a country road, akin to the f**kers doing speed checks on a motorway. Cash cow.

orbital83

I liken checks for a dirty number plate on a country road, akin to the f**kers doing speed checks on a motorway. Cash cow.

+1
The subjectivity of this is what bothers me.
I should hope what is dirty and what's not is determined by common sense, rather than the need to generate revenue and issue offences to meet a quota.

It's easy knowing there's a hole in the public finances.
Motoring fines were up 87% year-on-year in Feb 2008.
Source: http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2008/Feb08.pdf
Expect this increase to become exponential, with more wacky schemes being devised. Bertie's property bubble has burst, they can't screw us for stamp duty + VAT on some commuterville shoebox any more, so they need something else.

Silvera

It's about time such offences were made 'on the spot' fines..so to speak. Whether they should attract penalty points or not is another matter.
For all the people who bemoan such things, ask yourself...what if a car with an obscured/unreadable/dirty plate crashed into your car and kept going...only for you to try in vain to read the illegible/dirty number plate??!

Number plates are there for a reason...so a vehicle can be identified/traced in the event of an accident or breach of road traffic laws.
Having illegible or dirty plates is almost as bad as having no plates at all!

Penalty points or 'on the spot' fines should also be introduced for plenty more offences such as -

Not having lights/reg plate/safety chains on trailers
Unsafe/insecure loads on trailers
Improper display (or non display) of Trade Plates
etc etc etc

Such offences are 'ticket' offences in most countries years ago!

Esel

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

...motorcyclists who place their hand over the plate while going through speed cameras...

Lmao at this! How long would your arms have to be?

WHITE_P

I don't really have an issue, with this, as part of proper vehicle maintainence involves keeping windows, mirrors, lights and reg. plates clean, however what bothers me is how it will be enforced. Will it be the usual zero tolerance shown to motoring offences, or if you have a reasonable explaination, will the gardai use thier own descretion / common sense.

It does seem the timing of it, is really linked to the implementation of the "safety" carmera roll out.

The muck etc. on our roads is an issue that needs to be addressed, I can't understand how some people here seem to be taking the high moral ground and claiming it is not an issue and motorists are responsible. I have come accross dangerous situations on our roads caused by irresponsible people / companies leaving crap all over the road, where it could result in accidents irrespective of the motorists driving standard.

prospect

I don't have a major problem with this, although to portray it under the guise of a safety measure is just insulting...

At the very least, they could include dirty Lights (front & rear) also. I think encouraging people to keep their brake light lenses clean is far more important.

javaboy

prospect wrote: »

I don't have a major problem with this, although to portray it under the guise of a safety measure is just insulting...

At the very least, they could include dirty Lights (front & rear) also. I think encouraging people to keep their brake light lenses clean is far more important.

Anyone who's brake lights are manky enough not to be visible is also likely to have a dirty illegible license plate I'd say. So they'll still be pulled up.

Can you imagine the uproar from the revenue moaners if they were summonsed for 1)dirty license plate 2)dirty brake light 3)dirty indicators 4)dirty headlights etc.? It would cost a fortune in fines

There are very few situations where someone would have a dirty license plate and have a really valid excuse. I'm sure most guards will exercise discretion as they do with almost every other motoring offence.

Saruman

faceman wrote: »

im all for this, dont see what the fuss is

The fuss is this, i have on many occasions when its dry one day, put my car through a car wash. The next day its raining and with something being constructed every few hundred mtrs on most roads, the roads are full of muck, all it takes is ONE truck either in front of me or even just driving in the opposite direction to completely cover my car in mud. I have run out of water using my wipers after only filling up a day or two beforehand because every time a truck drives in the opposite direction, i can not see a thing!

The fuss is simply this. You could be very careful, clean you car every weekend and one messy day a few trucks filthy up your car, and you get penalty points for having a dirty plate

prospect

javaboy wrote: »

Anyone who's brake lights are manky enough not to be visible is also likely to have a dirty illegible license plate I'd say. So they'll still be pulled up.

Can you imagine the uproar from the revenue moaners if they were summonsed for 1)dirty license plate 2)dirty brake light 3)dirty indicators 4)dirty headlights etc.? It would cost a fortune in fines

There are very few situations where someone would have a dirty license plate and have a really valid excuse. I'm sure most guards will exercise discretion as they do with almost every other motoring offence.

I see your point, but it is not really what I meant,

Undoubtedly you will get lazy dicks with dirty cars, who will wipe their licence plates to avoid penalty points, but ignore their brake lights/indicators etc.

Also, afaik, if you get pulled for two or more penalty points offences, you can only get points for one of the offences, usually the highest points offence.

PaddyFagan

Sorry,

I just don't get the fuss - _you_ are responsible for ensuring your car is in a road worthly condition _every_ time you drive on the public road. If you're not capable of doing this then you are a danager to yourself and everyone else on the road.

I would see have legible number plates as one element of this - as other posters have pointed out if you where struck by a car that left the scene of an accident then you'd be mightly pissed if you couldn't read the plates, because of muck or some dodgy font.

Just my 2c,

Paddy

blastman

Just to re-iterate, the timing of this is the problem (or at least the problem that I have with it). Govt. announces speed camera roll-out and almost immediately announces the possibility of penalty points for dirty number plates is not coincidental and highly cynical to my mind. Does this make the speed camera rollout look like the action of an administration genuinely concerned about road safety? Does it buggery!

javaboy

blastman wrote: »

Just to re-iterate, the timing of this is the problem (or at least the problem that I have with it). Govt. announces speed camera roll-out and almost immediately announces the possibility of penalty points for dirty number plates is not coincidental and highly cynical to my mind. Does this make the speed camera rollout look like the action of an administration genuinely concerned about road safety? Does it buggery!

Think of it this way, if you were convinced like the government appears to be that speed cameras are an effective way of improving road safety (not looking to rehash that debate here btw) then wouldn't it make sense to ensure that they can do their job?

N8

wasn't a sticker invented that went over the number plate (or over the numbers but under the plastic) that kept it clean looking but when flashed at by the camera obscured the numbers??

javaboy

N8 wrote: »

wasn't a sticker invented that went over the number plate (or over the numbers but under the plastic) that kept it clean looking but when flashed at by the camera obscured the numbers??

This kind of thing along with reflective number plates is illegal AFAIK. Probably under the same piece of legislation that bans speed trap detectors.

N8

javaboy wrote: »

This kind of thing along with reflective number plates is illegal AFAIK. Probably under the same piece of legislation that bans speed trap detectors.

As illegal as dirty number plates?

Fey!

Are they going to get "reg plate dirt level measurers" when they get the "orange light measurer" for the NCT centre?

Who decides what level of dirt is too much dirt?

Wouldn't it be more appropriate in terms of "safety" to be on the lookout for dirty and defective lights than dirty number plates? Or is it deemed right that so many cars on our roads have only one light working?

*refering to the number of cars that fail for their indicators not being orange enough!!!

javaboy

N8 wrote: »

As illegal as dirty number plates?

Not sure that one thing can be more illegal than another but I'd imagine Gardai and judges would take a dimmer view of someone using someone that is designed to evade the law as opposed to someone being neglectful about cleaning their plates.

WHITE_P

javaboy wrote: »

Not sure that one thing can be more illegal than another but I'd imagine Gardai and judges would take a dimmer view of someone using someone that is designed to evade the law as opposed to someone being neglectful about cleaning their plates.

My concern about this whole thing is, it's just another thing for some garda to throw at you, if he takes a dislike to you.

Before people start coming out with bullsh!t like that wouldn't happen, Ive had personal experience of gardai who for no other reason than my accent (I'm from Dublin), have shown an obvious dislike to me.

I'm usually very polite and respectful to the gardai even though I've good reason to dislike them. Although now a days I will not let them treat me like sh!t.

Be under no illusion that if a garda gets you in a district court, for any motoring offence, you will be convicted, even if you are not guilty of any offence, and yes I've seen this happen in the district court.

N8

javaboy wrote: »

Not sure that one thing can be more illegal than another but I'd imagine Gardai and judges would take a dimmer view of someone using someone that is designed to evade the law as opposed to someone being neglectful about cleaning their plates.

They probably would however as I understood it the film over the plate is pretty much undetectable unless you are up close - the only time it is really noticed is when the camera takes the photo and can't identify the digits or numerals

Does anyone know where to get some?