Rugby was copied from Gaelic football..

kingent

theory goes that a family from south tipp sent a son to rugby school
named quinlan and that the concept of picking up the ball and runnning with it was thus introduced.

Amz

Never heard that theory before, but then I don't know any Quinlan's who would have told it to me.

dc69

?

tHE vAGGABOND

Not heard that before - so I therefore dont believe it

What I understand is that William Webb Ellis was a bit mad, and picked up the ball and ran to spoil soccer [and other] games. His mates joined in after a while. The game of rugby came from that seed.

Now maybe Webb Ellis had a crazy tipp mate, who knows

[TBH [with no evidence to back it up], I don't believe Rugby School would have let in a random lad from Ireland called Quinlan if Im being honest. Not only would it have been [and is] stunningly expensive it would have been quite elitist!]

is_that_so

That seems to me to belong in the tall tales department, concocted late at night over another ramble through "Alone it stands" and yet another Munster attempt to claim they invented everything in rugby. Surprised that it was Tipp and not Cork.

Malmedicine

kingent wrote: »

theory goes that a family from south tipp sent a son to rugby school
named quinlan and that the concept of picking up the ball and runnning with it was thus introduced.

Haven't heard that one. But what I did read in a book 'was a theory that Ellis' father had been stationed in Ireland and that William may have seen the old Irish game Cád (from which gaelic football is derived), and this may have been an influence on him picking up the ball and running.

But the book only cost 4 euro so i don't know how strong the research that went into it was:rolleyes: But think its slightly more believable than the other one.

Tim Robbins

Yeah heard it before. It's more like the other way around. There used to be a ball game which involved a bit wrestling called Tac that predated Gaelic Football. Cusack, played Rugby and then got the idea of rules, regulations, referees, (probably also the shape of the posts) pretty much from that. Gaelic Football was thus born.

Rugby and Soccer was once the one sport. This is why both were / are referred to as Football. There were different variations of this sport, some involved kicking and handling, some kicking only.

In the UK, Web Ellis just brought the rules etc in.

That's my 2 cent.

Gatsby

The following was sent to me by an irate tipp man who refuses to let his counties reputation be sullied by being associated with any other sport apart from hurling.


The origin of Rugby in England goes back long into the 19th century and even earlier. In 1800's formalities were introduced to football rules in the seven major public schools of England. Six of the seven schools were largely playing the same game (including Eton, Harrow and Winchester) - while the seventh, Rugby School (founded in 1567) at Warwickshire, was playing a markedly different version of football.

The other schools moved ahead refining their rules and eventually their game became known as "association football" - soccer. How the Rugby School's game developed differently is lost in history and the true story is unlikely to ever be known. The much revered tale of how in 1823 the young Rugby School student, William Webb Ellis, "in a fine disregard for the rules" picked up the ball and ran with it in a defining moment in sports history is now accepted by sports historians as being fanciful and a gross distortion of what is known.

There is no doubt that Ellis was a student at Rugby School from 1816 to 1825, but he was never mentioned by anyone as having done the actual deed ascribed to him. The first reference to Ellis appeared in a Rugby School magazine in 1875 (four years after Ellis' death) by an Old Rugbeian, M. Bloxham, who was endeavouring to refute claims that rugby was an ancient game.

Bloxham's story has always been in doubt because of the time that had passed since Ellis supposedly ran with the ball. Bloxham himself wasn't there and no living person could corroborate his version of events. In addition, examination of existing records and documented recollections does not show that the Rugby game dramatically changed after one event (i.e. Ellis or anyone else deciding to run with the ball).

Handling the ball was permitted in football in the early 1800's when players were allowed to take a mark and then a free kick, long before Ellis arrived at Rugby. In fact, most of the public schools allowed forms of handling the ball right up until the formation of the Football Association in the 1860's. The Association even considered whether to allow its continuation, before eventually deciding to outlaw it. The reverse picture that the rugby game was born from soccer the moment Ellis picked up the ball and ran with it is now known to be unfounded.

Ulstermell0

Malmedicine wrote: »

Haven't heard that one. But what I did read in a book 'was a theory that Ellis' father had been stationed in Ireland and that William may have seen the old Irish game Cád (from which gaelic football is derived), and this may have been an influence on him picking up the ball and running.

But the book only cost 4 euro so i don't know how strong the research that went into it was:rolleyes: But think its slightly more believable than the other one.

was that the Irish rugby micellaney or however you spell it? got it for xmas pretty interesting stuff in there, for a cheapy

Malmedicine

Ulstermell0 wrote: »

was that the Irish rugby micellaney or however you spell it? got it for xmas pretty interesting stuff in there, for a cheapy

No it was this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ultimate-Encyclopedia-Rugby-Richard-Bath/dp/0340695285/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204651274&sr=1-7. Bit cheaper now though!!!

figs86

As far as I have read,

William Webb Ellis was son of British officer stationed in Ireland with the Dragoons and he was brought up in Tipp and would have been exposed to the old Irish game ''caid'' which consisted of running with the ball in hand towards an opposition goal.

Quoted from rugbyfootballhistory.com:

All branches of the Celtic race played Caid. There were two basic forms, Cross-country and field caid. The word 'Caid' means scrotum of the bull. The Welsh say that Caid was just a derivative of their sport of Criapan. The Cornish called it "hurling to goales" which dates back to the bronze age, the West country called it "hurling over country", East Anglians "Campball", the French "La Soule" or "Chole" (a rough-and-tumble cross-country game). In fact, there had been traditions of ball-in-hand sports games for centuries before Webb Ellis' was born.

I therefore maintain that a man brought up in Ireland took inspiration from an Irish game in being the spark that ''invented'' rugby - and Rugby is an Irish game!

So it should have been allowed in Croker a lot sooner!

komodosp

And there was me thinking Gaelic football was just hurling with bigger balls!

Shan75

Yeah read something along these lines before and that the game could have been called Nenagh just as easily as rugby.I think Tony Ward wrote an article about it.

shaneh

Was the son's first name Alan?

JWAD

kingent wrote: »

theory goes that a family from south tipp sent a son to rugby school
named quinlan and that the concept of picking up the ball and runnning with it was thus introduced.

Thats not a theory. Its an urban myth. Hearsay. Old Wive's tale. Much like the shash about William Webb Ellis

il gatto

Everyone knows cricket was the most popular sport in Tipp in the 19th century (true).

EamonnKeane

Shure wasn't Sputnik built by stickin' a few oul wires to a poteen still and settin' light to the poteen inside?

Amazotheamazing

Con Houlihan has a brilliant article pretty much detailing the full history of rugby in kerry, sadly I couldn't find it after a quick google. What I did find was this little piece from before the 2000 HEC final.

For what it's worth, rugby is more Gaelic than Gaelic football.


The providence of Munster

One night long ago in Caesar's Palace, I found myself in the company of a famous boxer of yesteryear in the small hours - only of course there are no small hours in Las Vegas.

We were approached by a man who, though old enough to have more sense, was looking for an autograph - not mine I hasten to add. My companion dipped into a pocket and produced what looked like a book of raffle tickets.

He liberated one page and handed it to the newcomer. In meticulous handwriting it said: "With best wishes from Terry Downes, former world champion."

That little ploy gave me an idea but I didn't follow it up: I intended to print a sheaf of pamphlets to hand out to all those people who ask me why there is such a link between Kerry and rugby.

My interrogators usually give the impression that it is wrong that there should be any rugby in Kerry at all: they think of the Kingdom as exclusively a domain of Gaelic football.

It isn't that way at all: rugby was well established in the county before the birth of Gaelic football. This was made very clear in a documentary produced by RTE to commemorate the centenary of the Gaelic Athletic Association.

Michael Cusack took what he deemed the better elements of soccer and rugby and wove them into the existing pattern - thus came Gaelic football.

The new game spread rapidly into almost every nook and cranny in the country and to a certain extent it took over from rugby, but the older game remained strong, especially in Munster.

Myths have grown up about the Munster rugby as they have about Welsh rugby. There are innocent people who believe that Welsh packs are composed mainly of miners - they aren't, if only because there are no coal mines any more.

There is a similar belief about Munster forwards, especially those from Limerick: in mythology they all work in the docks or are fishermen or work on the sand dredgers in the Abbey river.

This may have once been true, but it is a long time ago. The most celebrated of all Limerick forwards could hardly be described as a horny-handed son of the soil.

That was my friend, Tom Clifford; for good measure he was a native of Tipperary. The eight forwards who will play against Northampton contain only one man who is used to physical toil; that is John Hayes, a farmer in civilian life.

Nevertheless, the myth is hard to slay. Shannon's great record in the All-Ireland League and Munster's brilliant run in this season's Provincial series and in the European Cup have almost convinced some people that the men in the south are a different species.

Then of course, there are the province's many memorable performances against touring sides. The most legendary is the victory over the All Blacks in Thomond Park. That team, incidentally, had a Kerry presence in the persons of Moss Keane and Donal Spring.

That occasion has been celebrated so often that it might have been a watershed in Irish rugby. We are still wallowing in it but as someone said: "One wallow doesn't make a summer."

Those of us who are older love to recall another marvellous occasion, the meeting of Munster and Australia in The Mardyke in 1948. Cork was still a slightly Victorian City, but on that Wednesday a remarkable number of people risked the wrath of their bosses by attending to the corporal works of mercy. The number of grandmothers and grandfathers who died was far above the national average; oddly enough, this wasn't reflected in the family notices in the Cork Examiner and the Evening Echo.

Spectators were literally hanging out of the trees in The Mardyke; it was worth the risk to life and limb - it was one of the finest games in any code that I ever saw.

It was generally believed that Munster had no hope; when five players cried off through injury, it was believed that they had no hope at all.

Australia had a brilliant team: they were better at winning possession and at using it but after 75 minutes they had only an unconverted try. That game was mainly a siege; in my youthful fancy it recalled the sieges of Limerick and Verdun and Troy.

Then Munster started a movement in midfield; Paddy Reid took the final pass from Con Roche. I can still see him curving away to the right and crossing behind The Mardyke goal. His conversion made it 5-3.

Australia launched an almighty attack and in the last minute a second-row forward named Hardcastle broke from a lineout and scored in the north-east corner. If hearts could really break there would have been an urgent need for cardiac splints that evening.

I have long believed that part of the reason for Munster's record against touring teams is the emotional climate they generate - the southern province abounds in aficionados. This was palpable a few weeks ago in Bordeaux.

Our team this weekend has a Kerry captain in Mick Galwey. Dominic Crotty's mother is from Castle Island. I hope that this pinch of yeast will help us to repeat the victory over the All Blacks.

Con Houlihan writes for the Sunday World