Using builders for pricing

wexgun

I'm a self-employed Civil Engineer and also work alongside my father in his building contracting company. I'd like to get the message across to the time-wasters and so called self-builders who use builders as a pricing service that they are wasting our time and money by doing so. We use a Chartered Quantity Surveying service for a lot of our tenders and this obviously costs a lot of money. We get enquiries from people every week who dont realise this or dont care. Some examples are:
1. Getting builders prices with no intention of using them to build, instead knowing all along that they are self-building. Pay a QS!
2. Looking for price per square foot with no plans or specifications. Go to an Architect first and get proper plans and specifications drawn up. Your Architect should be able to give you an estimated cost based on his design from the outset.
3. Not being able to tell the builder what type of spec the house will consist of. ie block or timber frame, pvc or timber windows, type of heating, level of finishes etc.
I could go on and on but many of you will get the idea. I feel that home builders should be subject to the the same tender and procurement procedures as other developers. This would get rid of a lot of these time-wasters and window shoppers. Go out and employ the appropriate professionals ie
1. Architect- Design and advise on the appropriate type of construction and prepare a detailed specification
2. Quantity Surveyor- Prepare a Bill of Quantities, put out to tender, and assess and appoint the most suitable contractor.
3. Engineer- Deal with any structural issues arising from the design, supervise the structural element of the build. Sign off any certificates required.
Each of the above professionals can provide you with a much broader service than I've outlined above. There is often an overlap between the three and they usually work best as a team. Often you will find that each of the professions offer an in-house complete Project Management service comprising all three services from start to completion of your project.
Again stop using the builder as a free design and pricing service and employ the appropriate professionals. Any decent builder would rather see you coming with a decent design spec and plans upon which he can submit a detailed tender than sketches done on a childs copybook. Any other builders or professionals feel the same?

sinnerboy

I totally understand and sympathise .

I work in an architectural practice now , but did spend a period "on the other side of the fence" in construction.

Consumers be sceptical but not cynical and unfair .

In another thread , we spoke about Grand Designs . Any intelligent viewer will get the message . In the long run it is always better to engage professional help

sydthebeat

Similarly i sympathise and understand...... i have often sent out tenders from our office to buildrs only to be informed when 2 or 3 quotes come in that, sure we're going 'direct labour' with it anyway. No matter how much i warn them against 'direct labour' they dont listen.

what i would advise to you is what i see coming in quite often from builders... if the spec that you are pricing is vague, then be vague with your quote. I have seen actually bill of quantities come in as a quotation.. madness. Simply keep your quotes as bullet pointed items such as . "strip founds throughout" or "Insulation to current part L regulations" etc.....
Dont breakdown your quote, just give a simply one figure quote.
Offer them a complete spec and breakdown should the quotation be accepted. If your figure is competitive the clients wont have a problem with this.
I know it doesnt solve your problem initially, but maybe your name is being passed around by 'self builders' (who do communicate a lot!) because you give detailed breakdowns.

personally i think this phenomenon of 'direct labour' will wither out in the next few years, because of the tightening up of regulations and actual best construction practices.

wexgun

Hi Syd,
I only submit the Form of Tender, never the full BOQ until it actually comes down to serious negotiation. Also its got to the stage where I actually have to ask people are they serious about using a contractor or are they going by direct-labour. If they're straight with me I'll be straight with them. I have never minded losing a job if the tender process is transparent and fair. These days I instruct my QS to price for a builders finish unless told otherwise. This is noted in the Form of Tender so everybody knows where they stand.

sydthebeat

i understand.

I feel there is too much media given to people who have successful 'self builds' and nowhere near enough to those who have absolute disasters. It was said in another thread that nearly all the successful 'self builders' on say 'grand designs' say at the end that they recommend 'self building' but theyd never do it again themselves.....???!!! :rolleyes::eek:

Whereas, on the flip side, a lot of media coverage is given to 'rogue builders'.. creating a sense that a building contractor is someone to be wary of, that they will try to screw the client a any turn.

Both these issues lead to a current climate of a lack of respect for the responsibilities and work of a building contractor.

Villain

I can understand the OP's frustration and I have to admit I did use a builder for a price to see what it would be, but I did warn him that I may go down the self build direct labour route depending on his price and he did build my brothers house so not as if he didn't get anything out of us.

I think a little balance is also needed on the direct labour discussion, the problem I see is many contractors have had it too good in recent years and have added very large profit margins on to one off houses. My brother for example got 3 quotes for his house, there was a difference of €60,000 i.e. one quoted 180,000 and one quoted 240,000.

Now let me be the first the say that you can't simply compare like for like as I know that the contractor that quoted 240k is excellent probably the best around in my county I have seen the houses he has done and the quality and finish is far superior to that of the one my brother got for the cheaper price. However the contractor that did build it for the cheaper price did a good job, it meets all standards and is structurally 100% however the quality of the finish isn't excellent its good and does my brother fine.

The thing is my brother has no experience of the building industry at all, he saw the difference and thought the second builder was making a huge profit and he reckons he made the right decision as he has a sound house for 60k cheaper.

Now I could have got that builder to build my house for €75 a sq ft but thats basic meeting standards as where I believe going direct labour I will get a much better build quality and build it for €55 to €60 a sq ft, now I'm in no hurry if it takes 2 years I don't mind and I know a lot of people in the industry so I can get people I know are good to od the work.

Direct Labour imo is only a good idea if you have contacts and knowledge of the bulding trade and you are in no hurry. The main issue with most people is direct labour takes too long.

Slates

Villain wrote: »

Direct Labour imo is only a good idea if you have contacts and knowledge of the bulding trade and you are in no hurry. The main issue with most people is direct labour takes too long.

Nail on the head, self building should only be undertaken by people who have a good knowledge of the industry......if not get a top notch project manager to look after things for you

sinnerboy

Villain wrote: »

The main issue with most people is direct labour takes too long.

disagree. main issue is client is not in a position to know what they are getting .

the cheaper guy in your example did not finish as well as the first guy , visually . how do you ( I mean all of you reading ) know that this lack of finesse does not extend beyond the visible ?

Villain

sinnerboy wrote: »

disagree. main issue is client is not in a position to know what they are getting .

the cheaper guy in your example did not finish as well as the first guy , visually . how do you ( I mean all of you reading ) know that this lack of finesse does not extend beyond the visible ?

Well that is an issue but I think the one they have most frustration is the the length of time it takes, not saying thats what they should be worried about but that is what annoys them most

As regards the cheaper finish, I do know that the house is structually sound as I saw the build at all stages and it was built very well. BTW an independent engineer also oversaw the job and was very sticky but everything was 100%.

I think some people in the building industry think that house building is rocket science and that unless you have a dergree in engineering and 10 years expierence you don't have a clue whats going. Its not that complicated really.

sinnerboy

Villain wrote: »

Well that is an issue but I think the one they have most frustration is the the length of time it takes, not saying thats what they should be worried about but that is what annoys them most

As regards the cheaper finish, I do know that the house is structually sound as I saw the build at all stages and it was built very well. BTW an independent engineer also oversaw the job and was very sticky but everything was 100%.

I think some people in the building industry think that house building is rocket science and that unless you have a dergree in engineering and 10 years expierence you don't have a clue whats going. Its not that complicated really.

Don't want to get into a protracted debate Villain . Of course there is a middle ground .

House building is more then complicated enough for first timers . The fact that it is "not rocket science" still leaves a lot of room for expensive mistakes or worse .

So the structure of your brothers house is structurally sound - he was wise to engage this "sticky" engineer . - are all other aspects of b regs ok - thermal , RECI , radon , fire , drainage + plumbing. Is safety glass installed to all locations it should be ? are heating appliances correctly installed with adequate ventilation ? Perhaps so , if the engineers brief included this . Hopefully so .

Your brother , upon re sale , may well have received a lot more than the €60 k spend for the excellently finished job rather than the standard he settled for .

And as far time on the build - this can cost too

financially - in terms of two mortgages or period of renting + mortgaging
emotionally - in terms of "life on hold" during long build , as you have referred to

Villain

sinnerboy wrote: »

Don't want to get into a protracted debate Villain . Of course there is a middle ground .

House building is more then complicated enough for first timers . The fact that it is "not rocket science" still leaves a lot of room for expensive mistakes or worse .

So the structure of your brothers house is structurally sound - he was wise to engage this "sticky" engineer . - are all other aspects of b regs ok - thermal , RECI , radon , fire , drainage + plumbing. Is safety glass installed to all locations it should be ? are heating appliances correctly installed with adequate ventilation ? Perhaps so , if the engineers brief included this . Hopefully so .

Your brother , upon re sale , may well have received a lot more than the €60 k spend for the excellently finished job rather than the standard he settled for .

And as far time on the build - this can cost too

financially - in terms of two mortgages or period of renting + mortgaging
emotionally - in terms of "life on hold" during long build , as you have referred to

Oh I agree someone with no knowledge could well end up with some expensive mistakes, but you can get a qualified engineer to inspect all parts of the build for under €2,000, the best €2,000 anyone could spend when going direct labour. My point is that with some basic knowledge and contacts people could well go down the self build route and save a lot of money or instead spend the extra on insulation HRV systems etc. It suits some people and some people feel the prices they are getting quoted from contractors are just greedy and if they want their house built they have to go the self build route.

As you say there is middle ground and I'm not saying every contractor is greedy and everyone should go direct labour but I think some people in the building industry think no-one can go direct labour and do a good job.

ircoha

OP, I am reminded of an old irish proverb,

Ná bhris do loigrín ar stól nach bhfuil i do shlí

which basically means

Do not break your shin on a stool that is not in your way.

There are a wide range of issues here, however when one sees POTENTIAL customers described as

...time-wasters and so called self-builders

there is something wrong with the process.

As advised earlier in this thread you need to have a process that deals with the different types of customers that come knocking on your door.

The last bit is worth repeating: come knocking on your door.

Human nature is a funny business:

The plastic bag levy took nearly a billion bags out of circulation over night.
The 20 euro fee for planning objections ......
The clamping of illegally parked cars.....
The FOI fees ......
Doctors fees of 50/60 a pop stuffed the A&E depts, even at 10/15 euro a pop.
A X euro, non-refundable fee....

I will leave it to you to fill in the dots for your business model, bearing in mind that it will need to be variable so as it can/should be skewed against the chancers.

Dont for a moment think this will cost you real business, it will take a bit of admin but once you set it up.....

secman

I went down the direct labour build route, an accountant by trade, absolutely useless when it comes getting hands dirty. But my 2 brothers are in the building game and both were a great help to me over the last 2 years. I bounced prices off them every time and i'm sure at times they were brassed off with my countless and endless questions.
Have to say it has been a brilliant experience, learned loads. Was surprised how well it went and without the stress people speak of, maybe I was lucky. I was very careful in choosing the people i used and to a man they were excellent all bar one, there's always one. But his replacement was excellent. We did on many occasions visit other builds (mainly contractors sites), just to compare finishes etc and we were surprised in some cases with the other finishes. Learned to barter big time, god its great craic, if you never ask, you get nothing. another old saying " dumb priest never got a parish". Anyways have to say that we got great satisfaction from our build, never thought in a million years that we would get to build our own house ! The added bonus is the 100 /150 k added value .

Yours

Secman

wexgun

My post was never about the quality or value of self-builds. It was about people using builders as a free pricing service. Fair play to someone that builds their own house and has the time on their hands to do it. But like I said there should be some regulation to the tender process. People wouldnt be so quick to seek spurious quotes if builders were to charge deposits which were refundable upon award of contract to the successful tenderer but I wouldnt like to see that happening. All I'd like to see is a proper tender process put in place. For example I know I've lost jobs for being too thorough with preparing tenders. By including everything I have priced myself out of the running. By pricing off planning drawings other builders have come in considerably cheaper but have left out an awful lot more. It also works the other way for the client as when it comes to completing the project there are less hidden extras as everybody prices the same items off the same BOQ to the same specification. For example I also project manage and supervise for stage payments and one day I happened to arrive on site just as the foundations were being poured. The readymix driver asked me to sign his docket as I was standing there. I was just about to send him over to the builder when I noticed the strength of the concrete marked on the docket which read only 20N. Nowadays it is considered best practise to use at least 35N in foundations which is which can be up to €12 per m3 more expensive than 20N concrete. When I challenged the builder about this he replied that it doesn't say anywhere on the drawing about what strength to use. What could I say? Nothing.
Anyway when I went home that evening I studied the planning drawings and found several omissions and out of date specs. From then on I make it my business to check planning drawings and notify my clients of any errors. Planning drawings are just that, planning drawings. I believe at the very minimum that construction drawings should be prepared for every project which should go into far greater detail.

Villain

I think if people are serious about using a contractor they won't mind paying a deposit to cover the QS costs.

mad m

whats the average a QS charges?

Builderfromhell

I'm and Architect/builder and I pay a QS €250 to price a simple house.
I typically issue an abbreviated spec. with price as usually I'm pricing off planning drawings.
In the spec. I make it clear what is and is not included.
What pisses me off is not pricing jobs where client intends build it themselves but losing a contract to a builder who has priced vaguely and is doing much less.
I have met people later who told me their house cost a lot more than my price and took way longer. I have also met builders who undercut me and told me how difficult it was for them to get paid for items that were assumed to be included.