Gardaí driving official vehicles without full training

WHITE_P

Some 2,600 gardaí are driving official vehicles without full training, 587 more than two years ago, latest figures reveal. David Labanyi reports.

Under Garda rules, an officer must complete a basic driver training course before being allowed to drive an official car.

However, this requirement can be circumvented under "chief's permission". This is a process by which the local chief superintendent gives written permission to a garda if he or she has not yet received the required basic training, though they hold a full driving licence.

It was conceived as a short-term measure to accommodate training delays at specific stations.

However, a Dáil reply to Fine Gael Transport spokesman Fergus O'Dowd from the Minister for Justice Brian Lenihan, shows that as of November 30th, 2007, the last full-year for which figures are available, "the number of Garda members driving on 'Chief Superintendent's Authorisation' was 2,600".

Almost two years ago, there were 2,013 gardaí driving under "chief's permission" and the then Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, said the capacity of the Garda driving school was being examined.

Mr O'Dowd said last night that he hoped the "Garda are working to address this situation as Garda drivers face high pressured and unusual motoring conditions. Making sure that all Garda drivers are ready for the roads is in their own best interest."

Mr Lenihan's reply did not address Mr O'Dowd's question of how many members of the Garda Traffic Corps are driving under "chief's permission".
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If they can't even arrange for this relatively small number of Gardai to get proper driver training, what hope is there of ever having appropriate driver training for all other drivers in this country.

TwoShedsJackson

If this comes up much more often it can get added to the FOG LIGHTS PEOPLE!!! list.

WHITE_P

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

If this comes up much more often it can get added to the FOG LIGHTS PEOPLE!!! list.

What's that the fact they can't even train the gardai properly, or the even poorer standard of driver training available to the rest of us poor mortals.

D_murph

whats more interesting here is that they flout their own rules in this matter but theyre the ones hiding in bushes or behind lamp posts waiting to enforce driving rules on others :rolleyes:.

can you say hypocrisy, children????????

msg11

Just to add my point in !

I can't see a really big problem here, ok maybe under high pressure on the driver he might make a false move, but I think that it would be in the drivers interest driving the car that he thinks too himself, I am not really trained for this I will ask for a more experienced driver to take the pursuit, so that the members and the public are safe.

Also, its not exactly a high standard but the full license is at leased some form of experience....

Now I am not an expert but, I take it the ones without the training are the ones who do not understand that blue lights only give right of way. So the ones without the training are the members who are doing near 120 down a 50 street and flying threw junctions as if nothing could stop them .. Which I see all the time.

unkel

Believe me, Gardai want to do the course. Limited places is the problem. I do see this as a big issue not only for the safety of said Gardai, but also for members of the public

It's not right that a person with merely a full driving license is driving a car at speed for their job while not trained to do so

WHITE_P

So the ones without the training are the members who are doing near 120 down a 50 street and flying threw junctions as if nothing could stop them .. Which I see all the time.[/QUOTE]


Where do you live. Hazzard county.

WHITE_P

unkel wrote: »

Believe me, Gardai want to do the course. Limited places is the problem. I do see this as a big issue not only for the safety of said Gardai, but also for members of the public

It's not right that a person with merely a full driving license is driving a car at speed for their job while not trained to do so

No doubt that the members want the training, but how come private companies, my own employer included, can afford to get their high mileage drivers trained by the likes of Nifast in defensive driving, and the gardai can't. By the way most of the Nifast course is classroom based, and takes only one day. I'm sure that even more advanced training is available in this country too.

Now you may well say that you cannot become a better driver from one day of theory. But at the end of the day, all it really takes to improve someone's driving is to highlight potential risks and make poeple more observant and proactive to these risks.

badlyparkedmerc

Anyone know how good these courses are, how many days does it last, is there a test involved, is it just attend and get the cert? Is there a test but is it one where 100% always pass? Are there refresher courses (I'd guess not if it's so hard to just get the initial one).

Considering it takes years of experience and building up skills from karts for profession racing drivers to develop their skills I think the importance placed on a one off course while no doubt useful is probably overstated.

unkel

badlyparkedmerc wrote: »

Anyone know how good these courses are, how many days does it last, is there a test involved

From what I heard it sounds like a pretty decent course. Iirc, the course is a full working week with a test at the end, passing which is by no means a given

But I'd prefer if a Garda would come on here to answer that question

PeelerHurley

unkel wrote: »

From what I heard it sounds like a pretty decent course. Iirc, the course is a full working week with a test at the end, passing which is by no means a given

But I'd prefer if a Garda would come on here to answer that question

The standard Garda course is a two week course. Starts monday 2 1/2 to 3 days in class, where a lot of theory and method of driving safley is discussed.

After that you are brought out on assessment drive to see your strenghts and weaknessnes. An instructor takes 3 people out and the driving is rotated during the day. Thurs even/Friday morning is a written test which you must pass.

Week 2 is where the proper driving begins, all the theory must be put into use or else your on your way home. It is pretty strict no messing. You must drive to a system of car control that the instructor teaches.

Fri morning is your final drive and thats it.

Its an enjoyable course in one way but NOBODY wants to fail it as the slagging you'd get is unbeliveable, if you fail you cant drive a car again until you pass the course.

The writen involves a couple of evenings swotting. The driving during the day drains you and in the evening your wrecked.

Hope that explains everything, i prob left out something important.

P.s. I passed it first time and the motorcycle course too.

Esel

"Road surface dry and good for tyre adhesion".

Wishbone Ash

PeelerHurley wrote: »

Its an enjoyable course in one way but NOBODY wants to fail it as the slagging you'd get is unbeliveable, if you fail you cant drive a car again until you pass the course

I think this is part of the problem. I've spoken to Gardai about this and there is a certain reluctance among some to do the course in case they are not successful and therefore will not be permitted to drive.

It seems ironic that a Garda with just a standard driving licence may drive on Chief's permission yet someone who has gone through the course but is unsuccessful may not drive at all.

What puzzles me is why Gardai want to drive anyway. Do they get an allowance for it? If I was a Garda I would just say that I'm not qualified for that type of driving. Surely if noone was willing to drive, they would have to increase the opportunity for training?

PeelerHurley

esel wrote: »

"Road surface dry and good for tyre adhesion".

true.

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I think this is part of the problem. I've spoken to Gardai about this and there is a certain reluctance among some to do the course in case they are not successful and therefore will not be permitted to drive.

It seems ironic that a Garda with just a standard driving licence may drive on Chief's permission yet someone who has gone through the course but is unsuccessful may not drive at all.

What puzzles me is why Gardai want to drive anyway. Do they get an allowance for it? If I was a Garda I would just say that I'm not qualified for that type of driving. Surely if noone was willing to drive, they would have to increase the opportunity for training?

ya its a bit of a balls having gone thru a 2 week intensive course and fail and someone new to the job might have to drive you around.

I like driving and have a bit of pride in how i drive so thats why i wanted to do the course to improve my skills. The course opens your eyes big time to whats out there.
Drivers do not get an allowance, but if you are put in charge of a car you get an allowance for this.

Templmore arent doing as many jeep and advanced car courses at the moment because their priorty is on training people on "chiefs"

Bearcat

peeler, you sound like a decent bloke....want happened the rest of your collegues?

Esel

Bearcat wrote: »

peeler, you sound like a decent bloke....want happened the rest of your collegues?

Bearcat, your other posts make you seem OK. What happened here?

pa990

msg11 wrote: »

Just to add my point in !

I blue lights only give right of way..

Blue lights don't give any right of way.. no more than an indicator gives you the right to change lanes

bryanmurr

esel wrote: »

"Road surface dry and good for tyre adhesion".

Dont forget the "system"

Its a tough course alright, mentally and physically tiring. 100% concentration all the time. My instructor used to try catch us out by covering the rear view mirror and asking questions about the type of car behind us or the colour of it etc. Just to make sure your observing everything.

pa990

safely smoothly progressively and well


.... keep her lit

PeelerHurley

PeelerHurley wrote: »

true.


I like driving and have a bit of pride in how i drive so thats why i wanted to do the course to improve my skills.
Drivers do not get an allowance, but if you are put in charge of a car you get an allowance for this.

What do you mean put in charge of a car? official unit drivers get an allowance. The chiefs permission doesnt.

Personally I think your pride is misplaced. Your never in the wrong in the passenger seat and never risk your job. And more importantly if a few more stood up to management and refused to drive without the course then they would have the whole damn fleet near grounded.

Make a bit of difference then!

Of course the GRA is a load of balls - made a whole load of noise about official cars not being up to scratch but never followed through with anything meaningful.

Why arent official vehicles NCT`d like taxis? They are on the road even more!
The exemption is a disgrace.
The GRA are a shameful bunch.

How does anyone expect them to put pressure for more driving courses.
It should never have been taken off the course for Templemore.

bucks

http://drive2arrive.com/

.

Wishbone Ash

Deleted User wrote: »

What do you mean put in charge of a car? official unit drivers get an allowance. The chiefs permission doesnt.

Personally I think your pride is misplaced. Your never in the wrong in the passenger seat and never risk your job. And more importantly if a few more stood up to management and refused to drive without the course then they would have the whole damn fleet near grounded

At last - a bit of sense!

If I was a garda , I would refuse point blank to drive any patrol car or any Garda vehicle for that matter. If they want me to risk life and limb, then they should provide proper training.

msg11

pa990 wrote: »

Blue lights don't give any right of way.. no more than an indicator gives you the right to change lanes

I was told that they do give right of way to the service as it is an emergency, nearly sure there is a mention in the rules of the road or one of the books I have. Which mentions that the basic thing you do is too get out of the way.

Yup as I though in the Rules of the road.

....using a siren or flashing lights, you should exercise caution, and give way if safe to do so.

Terrontress

Exactly! Not sure if you understand the contradiction in your statement. If you are in a position where you have right of way and an emergency vehicle is on blues then you give way if safe to do so. You have to make the call on if it is safe and then relinquish right of way.

The ball is firmly in your court!

Seth Brundle

msg11 wrote: »

I was told that they do give right of way to the service as it is an emergency, nearly sure there is a mention in the rules of the road or one of the books I have. Which mentions that the basic thing you do is too get out of the way.

Yup as I though in the Rules of the road.

....using a siren or flashing lights, you should exercise caution, and give way if safe to do so.

That suggests that you should get out of the way and oblige the emergency vehicle. It does not say that you must get out of the way.

PeelerHurley

Deleted User wrote: »

What do you mean put in charge of a car? official unit drivers get an allowance. The chiefs permission doesnt.

Personally I think your pride is misplaced. Your never in the wrong in the passenger seat and never risk your job. And more importantly if a few more stood up to management and refused to drive without the course then they would have the whole damn fleet near grounded.

Make a bit of difference then!

Of course the GRA is a load of balls - made a whole load of noise about official cars not being up to scratch but never followed through with anything meaningful.

Why arent official vehicles NCT`d like taxis? They are on the road even more!
The exemption is a disgrace.
The GRA are a shameful bunch.

How does anyone expect them to put pressure for more driving courses.
It should never have been taken off the course for Templemore.

I said put in charge but meant offical drivers, didnt think civis would understand that term. I dont think my pride is misplaced at all. i have pride in the way i drive and which is why i think i passed both the car and motorcycle course.

You may have issues with your GRA but imo the GRA have been good to me when i needed their assistance. I cannot speak for everyone though.

Your complaint about offical cars not been nct'd is invalid as in the last couple of months steps have been put in place that requires all vehicles to be nct'd

I agree that the course should have never been taken off the normal training in templemore but that was for financial reasons no excuse though.

PeelerHurley

PeelerHurley wrote: »

I said put in charge but meant offical drivers, didnt think civis would understand that term. I dont think my pride is misplaced at all. i have pride in the way i drive and which is why i think i passed both the car and motorcycle course.

You may have issues with your GRA but imo the GRA have been good to me when i needed their assistance. I cannot speak for everyone though.

Your complaint about offical cars not been nct'd is invalid as in the last couple of months steps have been put in place that requires all vehicles to be nct'd

I agree that the course should have never been taken off the normal training in templemore but that was for financial reasons no excuse though.

Great you have pride in your driving but rather you than me - you are NEVER wrong in the passenger seat - you know what management is like if they want to hang someone or make an example!
The GRA are all part of the clique. I have no time for their little organisation - Im sure some individuals are great and all and plenty of mules have had good experiences with them but they are part of the bigger picture problem as far as Im concerned.
Great that they changed it so they have to NCT the cars ! There were some dodgy cars we had rammed and crashed and should have been scrapped but remained in service.
Police funding in what I see as a vital area should never have been cut! Crazy wasnt it!
Again my own personal opinion but the firearms training shouldnt have been cut either

But when it comes down to it, if the Gardai refused to drive without the official course and the GRA back them up then management would be forced to do something about the situation.

yayamark

Deleted User wrote: »

Great you have pride in your driving but rather you than me - you are NEVER wrong in the passenger seat - you know what management is like if they want to hang someone or make an example!
The GRA are all part of the clique. I have no time for their little organisation - Im sure some individuals are great and all and plenty of mules have had good experiences with them but they are part of the bigger picture problem as far as Im concerned.
Great that they changed it so they have to NCT the cars ! There were some dodgy cars we had rammed and crashed and should have been scrapped but remained in service.
Police funding in what I see as a vital area should never have been cut! Crazy wasnt it!
Again my own personal opinion but the firearms training shouldnt have been cut either

But when it comes down to it, if the Gardai refused to drive without the official course and the GRA back them up then management would be forced to do something about the situation.

You seem to have issues with management and the union.

Wy would someone in the passenger seat be wrong anyway? Cant see your arguement here.

yayamark

yayamark wrote: »

You seem to have issues with management and the union.

Wy would someone in the passenger seat be wrong anyway? Cant see your arguement here.

Its questioning the judgement of Gardai who drive with chiefs permission.
Why do it - why add extra risk for no reward.
It also facilitates and exacerbates the situation.

Why would management bother with extra driver training when they can get Gardai to drive for them without it!

Yes I take issue with management and the GRA who for years allow this situation to go on. Thus putting Gardai in an unenviable(but self inflicted) position - - untrained in a patrol car responding to all sorts of calls, some of which naturally need a fast response.

PeelerHurley

Deleted User wrote: »

Its questioning the judgement of Gardai who drive with chiefs permission.
Why do it - why add extra risk for no reward.
It also facilitates and exacerbates the situation.

Why would management bother with extra driver training when they can get Gardai to drive for them without it!

Yes I take issue with management and the GRA who for years allow this situation to go on. Thus putting Gardai in an unenviable(but self inflicted) position - - untrained in a patrol car responding to all sorts of calls, some of which naturally need a fast response.

Oh right, I agree with your point but i dont feel as stronly as you do.

I suppose the reason Gardai drive without the course done is that they wish to further their careers and standing up to these will not get your carrer pretty far.

Ya i know what people will think of that gardai but what can you do.

PeelerHurley

PeelerHurley wrote: »

I suppose the reason Gardai drive without the course done is that they wish to further their careers and standing up to these will not get your carrer pretty far.

Exactly why I take issue with the GRA - they allow their members to be put in this position! Either go with the flow or risk your career!
I got very disillusioned with the job to be honest for so many reasons and thats not even among the reasons! Thats whats coming across not that I feel very strongly about this issue - more that I feel strongly about an accumulation of many many issues!!!

anyway Keep on rockin dude!

msg11

kbannon wrote: »

That suggests that you should get out of the way and oblige the emergency vehicle. It does not say that you must get out of the way.

Look I am not trying to start a F** argument here. I got from the posters post was that he/she was trying to tell me they have no right of way.

Also to clear this up, in my own words, what I do is get out of the way.

I like the fact that you avoid my original problem of members driving like rally drivers down 50kph areas, and flying threw junctions, as the speeds they are dropping down to are near 40-50 threw a junction. In saying that its rare I see it every 2 months or so.

javaboy

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly why I take issue with the GRA - they allow their members to be put in this position! Either go with the flow or risk your career!
I got very disillusioned with the job to be honest for so many reasons and thats not even among the reasons! Thats whats coming across not that I feel very strongly about this issue - more that I feel strongly about an accumulation of many many issues!!!

anyway Keep on rockin dude!

I was of the understanding that the GRA isn't a union as the Gardai aren't allowed have one. Is that true? That would mean that it has very little power in matters like these wouldn't it?

javaboy

javaboy wrote: »

I was of the understanding that the GRA isn't a union as the Gardai aren't allowed have one. Is that true? That would mean that it has very little power in matters like these wouldn't it?

Yes they are a representative association not a union.
BUT

The drivers on chiefs do not HAVE to apply for chiefs! they do not have to drive!!! so the representative association could easily issue a notice saying dont drive without the course.
They could so easily do it.

GTC

kbannon wrote: »

That suggests that you should get out of the way and oblige the emergency vehicle. It does not say that you must get out of the way.

If you didn't get out of the way, you would be prosecuted for obstruction (summons), or possibly careless driving (summons & 5pts on conviction). It's taken very seriously.

Unless you're putting yourself in real & serious danger by moving out of the way, you would be prosecuted for not moving, depending of course on the severity of the emergency.

I think nobody should be on Chief's permission. Some of the sods coming out of Templemore have something to prove. Usually by wrapping a patrol car around a metal pole while driving on C/Supts permission. A sad state of affairs, but it isn't close to some of the other problems plaguing the job

yayamark

This could be a first on boards.

Gardai giving out about the gardai.

I do understand yere complaints but i think thats for another thread.