Rugby still an elitist sport?

patmac

Inspired by my post on this threadhttp://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055191831
regarding what I consider a ridiculous amount of media coverage given to the Leinster Senior Cup in the Times and Indo. I was wondering is even in this day and age, is Rugby an elitist sport?
When I started playing Rugby in Mullingar in the late 70's/early 80's it was perceived as an elitist sport played by a minority of players mainly from wealthy backgrounds (Munster excepted). I played much against my GAA school's (another story)wishes because I loved the game. When I went to my first international I was amazed at the program listing the Irish team a minimum of 3 initials and everyone was either a solicitor/ doctor etc.

Have things changed much since? Rugby is on a crest of a wave at the moment because of a fine group of players that needs to be acted upon, comments like people going to Schools matches to see 90% of the future Irish Internationals playing/ anti GAA comments and general neglect of the AIL and Magner's League cannot be good for the game. I know a lot of work has been done to spread the word and Munster is completly different but people are watching rugby now(mainly GAA) that would never have had an interest in the game before and a great opportunity could be lost when the inevitable slump in the fortunes of our national team arrives.

Stev_o

patmac wrote: »

Inspired by my post on this threadhttp://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055191831
regarding what I consider a ridiculous amount of media coverage given to the Leinster Senior Cup in the Times and Indo. I was wondering is even in this day and age, is Rugby an elitist sport?
When I started playing Rugby in Mullingar in the late 70's/early 80's it was perceived as an elitist sport played by a minority of players mainly from wealthy backgrounds (Munster excepted). I played much against my GAA school's (another story)wishes because I loved the game. When I went to my first international I was amazed at the program listing the Irish team a minimum of 3 initials and everyone was either a solicitor/ doctor etc.

Have things changed much since? Rugby is on a crest of a wave at the moment because of a fine group of players that needs to be acted upon, comments like people going to Schools matches to see 90% of the future Irish Internationals playing/ anti GAA comments and general neglect of the AIL and Magner's League cannot be good for the game. I know a lot of work has been done to spread the word and Munster is completly different but people are watching rugby now(mainly GAA) that would never have had an interest in the game before and a great opportunity could be lost when the inevitable slump in the fortunes of our national team arrives.

Problem is a very deep rooted association with the school system. Take for example youth development. There are TWO SEPARATE development teams for Leinster. Leinster schools and Leinster Clubs. And then the majority of players who come through these development sides will come from the schools team into U-19 21 etc. Is it fair? Hell no.

There is a major problem in Ireland between the treatment of players who come from club backgrounds rather then schools.

And sadly the huge ignorance experienced by alot of schools players that we know see today who think they are so elite makes me sick.

AckwelFoley

Gerry flannery and John Hays elitest?

LOL NO.

themont85

Rugby is becoming a far less elitist sport than in previous years. The fact that Connacht and AIL clubs cannot get good attendences is down to poor marketing and no excitment through rivalries ect. The schools system is unique, yes the vast majority of the schools playing are private schools but a school such as Pres Bray is in the free sector with more and more schools joining the system. There are also far more people playing at club level around the country which isn't elitist at all. The schools system has been the biggest contributor of internationals down the years and will continue to do so. They have the best access to players for training in mornings, lunch ect. The more schools that join, the better.

tHE vAGGABOND

comments like people going to Schools matches to see 90% of the future Irish Internationals playing/ anti GAA comments and general neglect of the AIL and Magner's League cannot be good for the game. I know a lot of work has been done to spread the word and Munster is completly different but people are watching rugby now(mainly GAA) that would never have had an interest in the game before and a great opportunity could be lost when the inevitable slump in the fortunes of our national team arrives.

There are 150 people watching AIL matches in Munster too! You dont have 10,000 following shannon all over Ireland, like people follow Munster all over Europe! There have been a couple of big attendances in Munster AIL games this year, but thats when Munster players have played a few minutes coming back from injuries. Your Random Young Munster versus Galweigans AIL game is not sold out by a long LONG way!

I don't GET whats wrong with people following schools rugby? Whats wrong with watching and following the players of the future? Whats wrong with following ones old school and seeing how they do against their old rivals?

The collage GAA competitions sigarson and fitzgibon <terrible spelling> cups get a lot of coverage, more than random GAA club games [more than the provincial club championships IMHO]. Is that bad too? I know lads who live near me and go and watch Dublin play football and hurling and have never stepped inside their local GAA club. Is that the death of the GAA too, that some folks follow their county and not their clubs? Its the same thing?

Yes rugby is elitist, as a large amount of the players learn and play the game in fee paying schools. But its less than it ever was, and is getting less every day. The IRFU are spending more than ever on schemes on getting non-rugby areas playing the game.

You can see progress in competitions like the Vinnie Murray schools cup, and schools like Killkenny College doing well. They were a school who our 3rds would beat when I was in school [10+ years ago], and they got to the semi's of the cup last year [and were unlucky to loose there]. They are baby steps for irish rugby, but its all progress!

Regarding people not being interested when we starting loosing games again. To be honest I don't give the slightest bit of interest in those people. Frankly, I don't want people who only care when we win taking up tickets real fans could be using!

Ireland A lost by 60 points to an average Scotland A team last weekend, and it got next to no coverage in the paper. Its easy to think that we are great and all our subs are great, but we are not. We rugby fans therefore need to keep an eye on the next generation

patmac

snyper wrote: »

Gerry flannery and John Hays elitest?

LOL NO.

I did say Munster excepted, but I don't want it to be an anti-Leinster thing as that is where I played rugby. I know your from Athlone Snyper and I used to go to Buccs games when they were affiliated with Ballinasloe and they would get great crowds 5-6 years ago, a couple of years later no-one was going. A lot of this was AIL games clashing with HC matches and a real lack of interest in the media, then you open the Indo and long reports on Castlerock v whoever in the 1st round of the Senior cup. Can rugby afford to lose such support?

tHE vAGGABOND

The provincial coaches stopped anyone in any provincial squad playing with their club, ever. Thats when the AIL died!

Im not a Trevor Brennan fan at all, but he talks about it in his book, as he got in trouble playing an important match for marys when he was a sub for leinster the previous week and was not in line for selection at all.

These days top players clubs are a joke tbh. Shane Horgan club is now Bruff [a junior club], and B o'D is still down with UCD!

With no top players playing, why do you expect the man in the street to go to AIL games? Charity?

AckwelFoley

patmac wrote: »

I did say Munster excepted, but I don't want it to be an anti-Leinster thing as that is where I played rugby. I know your from Athlone Snyper and I used to go to Buccs games when they were affiliated with Ballinasloe and they would get great crowds 5-6 years ago, a couple of years later no-one was going. A lot of this was AIL games clashing with HC matches and a real lack of interest in the media, then you open the Indo and long reports on Castlerock v whoever in the 1st round of the Senior cup. Can rugby afford to lose such support?

I played reserve games for buccs and some 3rd rugby.

I will agree that there in Particularly athlone are alot of knobb heads supporting the first team, and part of the problem is that there were too many knobb ends playing for the first team afraid to put in a tackle in case they wouldnt be able to but on their Buccs Blazer.

But there is a strong element of support among us normal working class and most of the players in the 2nds and thirds are just normal folk.

RuggieBear

why should it lose support? I would term it elitist if you went down to your local club and you were denied playing due to your background/school/etc.

There are dickheads involved at loads of sports clubs...i used to get abuse when i played GAA due to my "Accent". Does that make GAA elitist?

super_furry

It's not the same throughout the country though - Munster for example - but there's no question that it's an elitest sport in Dublin.

Riskymove

I certainly think the schools element is the issue here.

Until rugby is played more generally at school level it will continue at senior level to be mostly made up of people who attended a rugby-playing school.

In Dublin region most rugby playing schools are in traditionally more affluent areas of northside/southside

It is more commonly played in Limerick but other areas are similar to Dublin, generally speaking...though i am sure there are exceptions

RuggieBear

super_furry wrote: »

It's not the same throughout the country though - Munster for example - but there's no question that it's an elitest sport in Dublin.

Have you been to a Cork Con match?

Riskymove

RuggieBear wrote: »

Have you been to a Cork Con match?

+1 thats why I specifically said Limerick in my post

Cork similar to Dublin

RuggieBear

Riskymove wrote: »

+1 thats why I specifically said Limerick in my post

Cork similar to Dublin

I just don't see rugby as elitist. Sure there are lots of alickadoos and that carry on but you should never be stopped playing based on your background.

I think the problem is the other way round. People seem to have some preconceived ideas and don't want to be seen associating with the "middle class" or something.

Rugby clubs are crying out for players and would welcome anybody with open arms to play for them and drink beer in their expensive to maintain clubhouses.

As for the Schools getting lots of publicity: They are major sporting events.

Until the very very recent advent of the HEC, Schools rugby crowds were quite easily the largest non international rugby crowds. The finals would get 30k or so evey year. Why shouldn't a major sporting event in this small country get proper coverage.

Tim Robbins

patmac wrote: »

Inspired by my post on this threadhttp://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055191831
regarding what I consider a ridiculous amount of media coverage given to the Leinster Senior Cup in the Times and Indo. I was wondering is even in this day and age, is Rugby an elitist sport?
When I started playing Rugby in Mullingar in the late 70's/early 80's it was perceived as an elitist sport played by a minority of players mainly from wealthy backgrounds (Munster excepted).
I played much against my GAA school's (another story)wishes because I loved the game. When I went to my first international I was amazed at the program listing the Irish team a minimum of 3 initials and everyone was either a solicitor/ doctor etc.

Have things changed much since? Rugby is on a crest of a wave at the moment because of a fine group of players that needs to be acted upon, comments like people going to Schools matches to see 90% of the future Irish Internationals playing/ anti GAA comments and general neglect of the AIL and Magner's League cannot be good for the game. I know a lot of work has been done to spread the word and Munster is completly different but people are watching rugby now(mainly GAA) that would never have had an interest in the game before and a great opportunity could be lost when the inevitable slump in the fortunes of our national team arrives.

First up, you need to define elitist. How do you differentiate between elitist and non - elitist, exactly? Let's say you use private schools to delineate.

Traditionally the majority of people who played rugby, it was private schools. This was true in Dublin, Cork, Ulster and the rest of the county. Limerick Crescent College used to be private and Glenstall still is.

There were clubs scattered around the country ( I played for one myself) and a few non private schools that player rugby. Munchins in Limerick, Temple and Pauls in Dublin.

Now, there are more people playing for the clubs and more schools playing at development level. My old school now plays a bit rugby as do all the other community schools in the area.

Statistically, in Dublin the number of people playing at the higher levels come from private schools, it's the same in Munster but not as high. go through the current Munster team and you'll see most come from private schools and CBC and Pres dominate their schools cup, usually one team is always in the final.

In Leinster schools the competition is graded. The lowest league is the development league which has 64 schools, I don't think any of them are private.

The Ross O'Carroll Kelly thing hasn't help the image of Leinster rugby.
There are quite a few poshies in Leinster but a lot of very sound people and thriving youth club scenes in Tallaght, Clondalkin, Crumlim etc.

Barnhall Under 18 beat Terenure SCT recently.
What the Leinster branch need to do, is tweak the youth leagues a bit, and the development school leagues so they get more matches and the leagues are more competitive.

My own view is that the private schools will always have the edge. They have the best facilities, the best coaches (who they pay a lot of money) and over 100 years of tradition.

My biggest fear is that we haven't done enough to support grass roots to keep the sport going once the golden era retires. For all Munsters success in the last 7 years how many decent backs have they produced that can play professional Rugby. Not many.

Dito Leinster half backs.

Riskymove

Its the simple fact that most kids don't get exposed to Rugby at school.

Therefore less are likely to play rugby......this suits the GAA in particular...

if there is no tradition of rugby in your area then its not seen, talked about etc...recently the International and provinces have grown in support, especially since heineken cup but the club/school level has not grown anywhere near the same rate.

Its only talked about in terms of "elitism" because of the total playing rugby a high percentage are from more traditionally affluent areas....if rugby was a traditional working class sport it wouldn't be an issue.

dc69

patmac wrote: »

Inspired by my post on this threadhttp://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055191831
regarding what I consider a ridiculous amount of media coverage given to the Leinster Senior Cup in the Times and Indo. I was wondering is even in this day and age, is Rugby an elitist sport?
When I started playing Rugby in Mullingar in the late 70's/early 80's it was perceived as an elitist sport played by a minority of players mainly from wealthy backgrounds (Munster excepted). I played much against my GAA school's (another story)wishes because I loved the game. When I went to my first international I was amazed at the program listing the Irish team a minimum of 3 initials and everyone was either a solicitor/ doctor etc.

Have things changed much since? Rugby is on a crest of a wave at the moment because of a fine group of players that needs to be
acted upon, comments like people going to Schools matches to see 90% of the future Irish Internationals playing/ anti GAA comments and general neglect of the AIL and Magner's League cannot be good for the game. I know a lot of work has been done to spread the word and Munster is completly different but people are watching rugby now(mainly GAA) that would never have had an interest in the game before and a great opportunity could be lost when the inevitable slump in the fortunes of our national team arrives.

I would still say its an elitest sport,alot of people who complain about it being elitest,just complain for the sake of it.they have no intrest,they just want to bitch about it.who cares if its elitest or not,if people complain about it,why dont they do something about it i.e join a club,truth is they cant be bothered but would rather complain about a bunch of snobs playing.

The magners league is the strongest its been in years,leinster attendences are brilliant and as always munster have good attendences.also connaught and ulster

the reason the indo and times cover the schools rugby is because he majority of there readers are proffesionals,alot of them would have gone to private schools.Do you notice you wont find the sun reporting on senior cup,its because it is aimed at the working class,who historically have no intrest in rugby.

you are seeing alot of coverage because you are looking for it,im sure if you went to areas where you would be more likely to see someone reading the sun,than the times.they wont even know what the senior cup is.


also alot of people talking about munster being the working class rugby players,thats bull****.All over the world rugby union is played by private schools and rugby league was the lower class game,i dont believe for a second that munster players all came from council estates,i would bet my arm half of them went to private schools.

munster like to call leinster poshies,throwing there money around.when the ironic thing is that munster are the team who throw the money around to bring in imports.

rugby is an elitest sport from australia to england to ireland to south africa,thats just the way it is

invincibleirish

I enjoy rugby but in my non playing experience its pretty obvious that most people who are into rugby are generally middle class. this is a gross generalisation but ive found it to be true in the case of at least 3 Rugby clubs in and around Cork city. Across the county, most towns in Cork have rugby clubs but the GAA & Soccer clubs tend to have larger memberships with a lot more working class participation.(except Kinsale!)

secondly, using Cork again as my example, underage Rugby is essentially Christians & Pres, they dominate the city and Munster and have a tendancy to cherrypick the talent from underage clubs with juicy scholarships, Pres & Christians are of course the two 2nd level bastions of the professional & upper classes in Cork.

Limerick is the exception in Ireland, often seen as the heartland of Rugby and all that, really rugby just enjoys parity with GAA & Football there, Whilst we all know about all the rugby clubs shannonside, less is mentioned on the the underage Football scene there which is huge.

similarly limerick GAA is quite strong, and for all the column inches Thomond park generates, Pairc Na Gael, is much larger, but overall Limerick is the only place in the country that rugby has seeped into the publics imagination in the same way GAA & Football have over the rest of the country.

a point about Munster, to me the provincial system highlights how big rugby really is in a national context. Munster as an entity, has give or take, 1.1-3 million people across 6 counties & 3 cities. that sustains one professional rugby team in Munster and nearly 60 IRFU affiliated clubs and have Thomond park (26,000) and Musgrave park (7,000 though being upgraded)

Now in GAA terms, Cork alone has something like 270 clubs, as well as Pairc ui Caoimh and Pairc Ui Rinn (45,000 & 18,000).

In soccer terms, Cork has 2 eircom league clubs, it is a predominantly working class game in Cork, yet still has strong city and county leagues with mulitiple divisions and has a full time team in Cork City FC.


Now to make my point! as you can see from my Cork example Rugby is still a niche sport, it is small because the middle class by definition is small. that leaves you with 2 options. expand the middle class(already done thanks to the celtic tiger) or push the game beyond its usual boundaries. i know there are rugby clubs in Kerry, Tipperary, Connaught and the northside of Dublin but those areas have yet to succumb to Rugbys charm on a large scale. how do you appeal to the masses? i dont know....

Malmedicine

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

The provincial coaches stopped anyone in any provincial squad playing with their club, ever. Thats when the AIL died!

Im not a Trevor Brennan fan at all, but he talks about it in his book, as he got in trouble playing an important match for marys when he was a sub for leinster the previous week and was not in line for selection at all.

These days top players clubs are a joke tbh. Shane Horgan club is now Bruff [a junior club], and B o'D is still down with UCD!

With no top players playing, why do you expect the man in the street to go to AIL games? Charity?

Just plain incorrect

1.Bruff is not a junior club became senior either one or two years ago AFAIK.
2.What is wrong with UCD. AIL 1st divison club for the last seven years.
3. Provincial players this year at least are released for their AIL clubs when not involved or injured e.g Barry Murphy and Paul Warwick for UL bohs have been playing a bit. Kevin McLoughlin, Ronnie McCormack UCD, and other players knocking about like Jonny Bell and Justin Fitzpatrick in Dungannon.
4. Maybe if you went to an AIL match once in awhile you might realise how good the standard is.
5. Did you watch the AIL club international?

toomevara

Of course all this is predicated on the fact that when you talk about rugby you mean union...if you fancy a bit of oval ball action minus the prawn sandwich brigade might I direct you towards league...Same fantastic camaraderie, superb fans, deep roots and not a wax jacket or trilby in sight, doesn't get any less elitist than that...;)

dc69

toomevara wrote: »

Of course all this is predicated on the fact that when you talk about rugby you mean union...if you fancy a bit of oval ball action minus the prawn sandwich brigade might I direct you towards league...Same fantastic camaraderie, superb fans, deep roots and not a wax jacket or trilby in sight, doesn't get any less elitist than that...;)

league is for thugs:D

RuggieBear

pfft... those northern union non-gentlemen!

super_furry

RuggieBear wrote: »

I just don't see rugby as elitist. Sure there are lots of alickadoos and that carry on but you should never be stopped playing based on your background.

I don't think it's a question of people not being allowed to play because of their background, more never having the opportunity to play. I grew up in Tallaght and there was no rugby clubs or teams, no-one played it, no-one talked about it, no-one cared about it. You can argue over the reasons for this but the fact is, if people don't get into a sport and into playing it as a kid, they're generally unlikely to ever play it.

RuggieBear

i see what you are saying.

Perhaps my own life experience gives me a pejorative view on elitism.

I saw an international match on TV when i was about 10 and the violence of the game appealed to me. I convinced my parents to take me out to a real life match and then bring me to training one sunday morning. I had to travel from Bray to Greystones to play.

Then I moved primary schools to one that happened to play it and then to a secondary school that happened to play it.

I suppose rugby is a much harder game than GAA or Soccer to pick up. It's very technical and the rules are mind boggling.

Shan75

DC69 wrote:

also alot of people talking about munster being the working class rugby players,thats bull****.All over the world rugby union is played by private schools and rugby league was the lower class game,i dont believe for a second that munster players all came from council estates,i would bet my arm half of them went to private schools.

Agree with this.The Munster and particularly Limerick rugby people love to play on this working class stuff.The fact is that in Limerick the players and supporters come from across a very broad spectrum and within clubs you can have people of varying financial wealth.The only thing I would say is Rugby is followed by a huge percentage of the population of Limerick and I don't think any other town or city in the country has the mass appeal as exists in Limerick.Funnily enough though the people in Limerick I have come across with little or no interest are from the council estates and would all be more into soccer.

EdgarAllenPoo

super_furry wrote: »

I don't think it's a question of people not being allowed to play because of their background, more never having the opportunity to play. I grew up in Tallaght and there was no rugby clubs or teams, no-one played it, no-one talked about it, no-one cared about it. You can argue over the reasons for this but the fact is, if people don't get into a sport and into playing it as a kid, they're generally unlikely to ever play it.

I'd be in a similar situation to yourself, I grew up in the Dublin 15 area and nowhere (outside of Castleknock) had a rugby team (this has changed in recent years), I didn't really ever hear about rugby until I was about 17. I saw my first game then and was hooked. I now live in Meath and although there's no club where I live there are clubs in Navan, Ashbourne and Ratoath(under age only).

When I said to my parents that I wanted to start playing rugby they said no, "it's only a game for people who have enough money to get injured and not have to worry about working."

Honestly, I have to say from the limited experience I have had it is still an upper middle class sport and I really wish that would change.

toomevara

dc69 wrote: »

league is for thugs:D

Your cheap jibes are like water of a ducks back tonight, my particular shower of thugs have just become world club champions!! C'mon Leeds....:D

dc69

toomevara wrote: »

Your cheap jibes are like water of a ducks back tonight, my particular shower of thugs have just become world club champions!! C'mon Leeds....:D

good to hear:)

gcgirl

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

The provincial coaches stopped anyone in any provincial squad playing with their club, ever. Thats when the AIL died!

Im not a Trevor Brennan fan at all, but he talks about it in his book, as he got in trouble playing an important match for marys when he was a sub for leinster the previous week and was not in line for selection at all.

These days top players clubs are a joke tbh. Shane Horgan club is now Bruff [a junior club], and B o'D is still down with UCD!

With no top players playing, why do you expect the man in the street to go to AIL games? Charity?

Shane Horgan is with Boyne, John Hayes is with Bruff ! Munster is compleatly different to Leinster and i have to say i prefer Munster much more down to earth attitude!

gcgirl

RuggieBear wrote: »

i see what you are saying.

Perhaps my own life experience gives me a pejorative view on elitism.

I saw an international match on TV when i was about 10 and the violence of the game appealed to me. I convinced my parents to take me out to a real life match and then bring me to training one sunday morning. I had to travel from Bray to Greystones to play.

Then I moved primary schools to one that happened to play it and then to a secondary school that happened to play it.

I suppose rugby is a much harder game than GAA or Soccer to pick up. It's very technical and the rules are mind boggling.

yep your right there !You try pick up the rules or should i say laws of the game its compleatly different playing to looking at it on tv ! going in to rucks and what ever!

tHE vAGGABOND

Shane Horgan is with Boyne, John Hayes is with Bruff

Yes, your correct. Oops, my bad!

4. Maybe if you went to an AIL match once in awhile you might realise how good the standard is.

Pardon me for actually *playing* rugby and having the Leinster branch schedule games on Saturday afternoons!

5. Did you watch the AIL club international?

Yes, if we are being totally honest here I was not too impressed tbh. But they did not have long to prepare and the selection was a bit strange, as every club seemed to get one player onto the squad. But its a good exercise in giving those lads a bit of exposure etc

dc69

gcgirl wrote: »

i prefer Munster much more down to earth attitude!

what do you mean down to earth attitude?have you ever talked to any of the leinster players? or do you just think they are not down to earth because they like to play running rugby?

munster like to play this normal joe access anywhere card,its bull.
ronan ogara is kicking it up right now in his 5 bedroom house ,watching his 60 inch samsung tv,from his sponsorship deals.
These guys behave the exact same as any leinster player or other profesional rugby player.

it comes down to the fact that no matter where you are from or how rich you are,if you dont have manners and conduct yourself well,you have no place in rugby.

you will never see a rugby player talking to the ref the way a football player would,and they generally conduct themselves well
you will never see rugby hooligans

it just shows your ignorance preaching your preconcieved views on how people who support leinster or the people who play for leinster,are stuck up their asses and all went to private schools talking with a d4 acent and looking down at everyone.well tbh its not true,i went to a private school,dont have a d4 accent and i dont think im better than anyone and will always have good banter with any fans from anywhere be it munster or leicester and the same can be said of any leinster fans i have ever met.dont generalise too much

people really need to ease off the ross o'carroll kelly books,not all leinster fans are like that,in fact ive met very few

gcgirl

dc69 wrote: »

what do you mean down to earth attitude?have you ever talked to any of the leinster players? or do you just think they are not down to earth because they like to play running rugby?

munster like to play this normal joe access anywhere card,its bull.
ronan ogara is kicking it up right now in his 5 bedroom house ,watching his 60 inch samsung tv,from his sponsorship deals.
These guys behave the exact same as any leinster player or other profesional rugby player.

it comes down to the fact that no matter where you are from or how rich you are,if you dont have manners and conduct yourself well,you have no place in rugby.

you will never see a rugby player talking to the ref the way a football player would,and they generally conduct themselves well
you will never see rugby hooligans

it just shows your ignorance preaching your preconcieved views on how people who support leinster or the people who play for leinster,are stuck up their asses and all went to private schools talking with a d4 acent and looking down at everyone.well tbh its not true,i went to a private school,dont have a d4 accent and i dont think im better than anyone and will always have good banter with any fans from anywhere be it munster or leicester and the same can be said of any leinster fans i have ever met.dont generalise too much

people really need to ease off the ross o'carroll kelly books,not all leinster fans are like that,in fact ive met very few

Sorry i just commenting on the way Schools compaired to Clubs in Leinster ? Right off i know a guy who plays as an outhalf but he plays club rugby and he has the Potential to be the Next ROG compaired to some guy who happens to go to Blackrock/Belvo! who do you think wil make the Leinster Acadamy??

Laslo

Pffffft! Who cares? Anyone who wants to set up a rugby club in any parish in the country is perfectly entitled to do so. If Knackerville Utd. decide to start playing rugby instead of football or GAA and they produce talented players, then more power to them. We could do with as much blood as possible to ensure the future of the game in Ireland.

Rugby's elitism is only a perception. Anyone who goes out of their way to point out that it's an elitist sport played by snobs, private schoolboys, rich kids, etc. is a fcuking idiot and deserved to be pointed towards and laughed at.

Stev_o

Laslo wrote: »

Pffffft! Who cares? Anyone who wants to set up a rugby club in any parish in the country is perfectly entitled to do so. If Knackerville Utd. decide to start playing rugby instead of football or GAA and they produce talented players, then more power to them. We could do with as much blood as possible to ensure the future of the game in Ireland.

Rugby's elitism is only a perception. Anyone who goes out of their way to point out that it's an elitist sport played by snobs, private schoolboys, rich kids, etc. is a fcuking idiot and deserved to be pointed towards and laughed at.

Thats not the point though. The fact is a club could produce as many talented players as they want but more then likely they will be turned a blind eye in academy's since they arent schools players and that problem is more effected to Leinster then Munster as Leinster has a strong school tradition while Munster have a strong club tradition.

Until both sides are perceived as the equal then this argument will always continue

RuggieBear

Stev_o wrote: »

Thats not the point though. The fact is a club could produce as many talented players as they want but more then likely they will be turned a blind eye in academy's since they arent schools players and that problem is more effected to Leinster then Munster as Leinster has a strong school tradition while Munster have a strong club tradition.

Until both sides are perceived as the equal then this argument will always continue

If you are good enough you will be seen.

themont85

RuggieBear wrote: »

If you are good enough you will be seen.

Completely agree. The club system hasn't been as strong as the schools game in leinster, that is why more schools players get to the academy. There's more club players in leinster now and I expect more to come into the academy in future years, but imo the schools system is the better way of developing players and will always have players there. Why would the Leinster system choose to ignore club players, complete stupidity if they did. People need to get the chip of their shoulder.

Stev_o

RuggieBear wrote: »

If you are good enough you will be seen.

But you wont you will be stuck into a team that solely for club players and vice a versa for schools. There is no step where club and schools players are stood next to each other and lines are drawn as to which player is better

RuggieBear

leinster have a good few players from the Youth's teams in the Academy. (Good few Greystones players too:))

Stev_o

RuggieBear wrote: »

leinster have a good few players from the Youth's teams in the Academy. (Good few Greystones players too:))

Theres 3 players in that academy that dont come from the prominent schools in Leinster

dc69

gcgirl wrote: »

Sorry i just commenting on the way Schools compaired to Clubs in Leinster ? Right off i know a guy who plays as an outhalf but he plays club rugby and he has the Potential to be the Next ROG compaired to some guy who happens to go to Blackrock/Belvo! who do you think wil make the Leinster Acadamy??

thats absolute rubbish if i have ever heard it,leinster have scouts littered right the way through club rugby in leinster,as the mont85 said "if you are good enough you will be seen".

So by your reckoning,BOD,dennis hickie,Luke fitzgerald,Rob Kearney,Girvan dempsey,cian healy all got into the leinster academy because they went to private schools and there was better players in the club game,rubbish.

the difference between leinster and munster is that in munster alot of your players come from clubs rather than schools.

In leinster the schools albeit mostly private have the best coaches money can get,mostly from the southern hemishere(was the case when i played) who teach them the way they do it over there.As you would expect alot of very good players come from these schools as they have had the best coaching and facilities to nuture their development.

that is the reason most leinster players come from private schools,because the setup here is mostly schools and in Munter its club.If a player is good enough he will be scouted by the acedemy,Its idiotic to think he will be overlooked because he has a contender for his position who is from a private school.

themont85

Stev_o wrote: »

But you wont you will be stuck into a team that solely for club players and vice a versa for schools. There is no step where club and schools players are stood next to each other and lines are drawn as to which player is better

A lot of countries have schools national and provincial sides including NZ and Australia. I really don't see the logic at that stage playing clubs and schools together. At that stage the schools players and club ones aren't training at the same level. When they finish school and join the club ranks they have more time to be train with clubs and the whole thing balances out. Besides if they emalgamated the two it would mean less repersentative rugby, especially for club guys who don't get the oppertunity to train as frequently as schools players. Less guys would have a chance at playing at that level and improving. Of course when they all leave school they are all thrown into the same hat and the best players, from both underage clubs and schools, are found.

flyswatter

snyper wrote: »

Gerry flannery and John Hays elitest?

LOL NO.

In fairness he said Munster excepted.

Tim Robbins

themont85 wrote: »

Completely agree. The club system hasn't been as strong as the schools game in leinster, that is why more schools players get to the academy. There's more club players in leinster now and I expect more to come into the academy in future years, but imo the schools system is the better way of developing players and will always have players there. Why would the Leinster system choose to ignore club players, complete stupidity if they did. People need to get the chip of their shoulder.

I have reffed a few games at schools level and youths (i.e. clubs) this season.
The main differences are:
1. Schools train 4+ times at week so are better drilled individually and collectively. A reasonable club would be like a big 6 Schools seconds team.
2. In club rugby the standard is quite mixed. 5 players on a team could be excellant, 5 average and 5 struggling. Schools - the standard in a team is more uniform. I would be this down to more training, and stricter grading of players i.e. having a 1st or 2nd.
3. The Leinster branch are trying to help the club game by having more regional trial matches. But they could go further by having more club matches. If they are only 8 teams in a league, they should go to a home and away format which would give the teams more games. At times, you can have an under 14 team which won't have a game for a month. This would never happen in schools.
4. For Leinster schools, the should be pick club players if they are good enough. They have policy of only picking players that go to rugby schools.If a prop from Barnhall or a center from Malahide is good enough, pick them.
The honour would mean there is far less chance the kid goes back to Soccer or GAA. They are still a schoolboy, they can simply include their school in the match program. Afterall it's Leinster schools not Leinster Rugby schools.
5. Improve the LeinsterRugby.ie website to include fixtures, results from all youth games. Let's the players know they belong to the province. MunsterRugby.ie do this.
6. Organise the season better so more players can play for school and club.
Again this is common in Munster.
7. Basically, there's a huge drop out rate from Schools. Once the glamour goes players don't want to play. School days end, so Rugby days end.
The club never ends. The drop out rate isn't as big, in fact in many clubs it grows. A club player has a lifetime affinity to the club and hence to rugby. The school player is lost, once the leave school. Once the leave school it's never the same, so they just give up. The IRFU could learn a lot from the GAA which is so strong because the grassroots and clubs are.
8. Have more cups. The Leinster branch could introduce a few more cups again to have more games and more rivalary. My suggestion would be to localise it. As well as having the metropolitan leagues, have a Fingal cup or a southside cup. This would played after the league has finished.
9. Only allow media outlets to cover schools games if they at least include the results from youths.

Luckycharm

15 years ago AIL games used to get more people at their games then Munster, leinster games. There could be 10k plus at a limerick derby, Marys v Terenure for example. For our johnny come lately supporters 10 years ago Munster barely had 5k at their HEC games now they seem to have become the Man Utd of rugby on this island. about 12 years ago there was over 30k at an AIL final between Marys and Young munster.
Players like Hickie/MOK/Quinlan used to play each week in the AIL - they now never play there and Leinster/Munster nearly play every week so they are getting the crowds.
For people who go on about Munster rugby been not elitist one of the snobbest clubs in the country is Garryowen. Yes Limerick has embarrased rugby and fair play to them.
As for elitism has anyone ever been stopped playing for a club? Has rugby done what GAA did by banning players for playing different sports?
I think the make up of Leinster/Munster teams will change in the future as more players are getting into Mini rugby etc. Yes alot of players came for fee paying schools that play for the provinces but that is mainly down to them playing the game from 6/7 years of age.
Unfortunately rugby is not a real easy game to pick up straight away so they have an advantage but with the emergence of Tallaght etc this will improve.

Malmedicine

Tim Robbins wrote: »

6. Organise the season better so more players can play for school and club.
Again this is common in Munster..

So the school kid trains 4+ times with his school per week, plays matches with his school and then you want him to be available for his club. MASSIVE possibility of burnout. However I do not agree with schools holding onto players i.e players who would prefer to play for their club but not for their
school.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

7. Basically, there's a huge drop out rate from Schools. Once the glamour goes players don't want to play. School days end, so Rugby days end.
The club never ends. The drop out rate isn't as big, in fact in many clubs it grows. A club player has a lifetime affinity to the club and hence to rugby. The school player is lost, once the leave school. Once the leave school it's never the same, so they just give up. The IRFU could learn a lot from the GAA which is so strong because the grassroots and clubs are. .

In my expieriance this is not the case at all. What happens is school days end and the vast majority of players leave to play 20's at a club, then either 1 of 4things happens

1. The player begins to realise the world outside school, rugby and his cliques and decides he doesn't want to bother any more

2. Becomes so disillusioned with the standard of the clubs and the massive difference between schools rugby and club rugby that he just quits

3. Continues to play 20's and then when the step up to seniors begin, doesn't want to commit to it and can't hack playin for the lower social sides.

4. Continues to play on after 20's

Tim Robbins wrote: »

9. Only allow media outlets to cover schools games if they at least include the results from youths.

The club sides underages usually get coverage in the local weeklies well in Dublin anyway. The 'Gazette' newspapers usually have sections/weekly/match report on youth rugby throughout the year not like the biggies when it becomes fashionable.

markonm

The title of this thread is probably wrong. Rugby, at the top level, is of course elitist - just like GAA, soccer, hockey and any sport you care to mention. What you meant to ask, is rugby priveledged? It is.

I have a son involved with a rugby playing school in cork and am involved in coaching youths in a provincial town so I see both sides of rugby's 'class' structure.

Without doubt the training, opportunity and facilities afforded to those within the schools structure are infinitely superior to those of the average club. Access to those facilities is largely determined by economic (and maybe geographic) factors. An A grade schools team will have a budget for rugby and facilities far in excess of any club. The training will be more structured and just downright better than anything a club can provide. AFAIK the only all weather rugby pitches in the country are attached to schools?

All things being equal, a player in a schools environment will become a better player than one in a club environment. That player is priviledged to be in a schools environment

Generally a club will be underresourced for coaching staff. I don't know how many times I have seen players who just lack basic skills (e.g a scrum half whose pass is poor, a kicker with a lousy technique, a disorganised pack who can't/won't ruck properly) and I don't have the wherewithal to sort it out. They may have the raw talent but without the coaching, they won't progress as far or as fast as a schools players.

Munster have an established schools (ie rugby playing schools) U16 team. They train, have played matches and it is a competitive environment. I know some of the lads involved in this and they are fine, talented players. But here's the thing: I could name at least 6 clubs players at the same level that are as good if not better than anything on the schools team; certainly they have more potential and they are being ignored because of apathy, politics and plain incompetence. The worrying thing for rugby in this country is that these kids will probably be lost to GAA (who have a very sophisticated representative structure) or soccer because of this neglect.

I would disagree with the assetion that if they're good enough, they'll be seen. A lot of talented players in the club scene slip through the net and are lost to other codes.

The frightening thing for Irish rugby is that there could be a Brian O'Driscoll out there who will be missed.

The majority of the Irish team are from the schools system because they get the training, opportunties and the visibility that comes from playing in a high-profile environment from an early age. Gordon D'arcy's talent was there for all to see as part of a cup winning team way back in 1998(?).

The drop out rate of schools players is well known and is probably due to the ridiculous 'pressure cooker' environment of schools rugby competitions in Munster and especially Leinster. The failure to nurture talent outside the schools system is a lot more damaging to rugby in the long term.

The mindset with the IRFU needs to change to capitalise on the huge upsurge in interest in all things rugby. The IRFU should concentrate on the club game at youths level because it needs it. The schools are well able to look after themselves.

dc69

markonm wrote: »

I would disagree with the assetion that if they're good enough, they'll be seen. A lot of talented players in the club scene slip through the net and are lost to other codes.

The frightening thing for Irish rugby is that there could be a Brian O'Driscoll out there who will be missed.

I dont really understand that,I mean you are talking from a munster point of view,where i thought the majority of players came from clubs,the club seen is better and the players are better than the school players.

I have been watching the munster schools rugby on setanta and the leinster schools rugby is in a different league( I will prob get slaughtered but from watching,its evident to me.eg physical conditioning and all around skill level).

Which i presumed normal,as i thought that in munster its all based around clubs,eg where your best players would be encouraged out of the schools system and into the club?

I would have thought that the chances of a club player slipping through the net would be much higher in leinster

tHE vAGGABOND

There could be 10k plus at a limerick derby, Marys v Terenure for example

Ahhh how I used to love those classic Marys and Terenure Limerick derbys

The frightening thing for Irish rugby is that there could be a Brian O'Driscoll out there who will be missed.

B O'D is a great example here actualy. B O'D was not on his Rock JCT team [U15], a rather handy team to be fair [he was a sub scrum half behind Ciaran Scally!], so a lot of people in a similar position would/could/will just give up.

People develop at different speeds! It often takes a coach to move a bloke from one position to another [like whoever moved B O'D from 9 to the center] or you will 'rot' in the seconds/thirds.

But a 'weak' person can and will just give up in that kinda situation! But we are lucky we have some savage coaches at schools level..

Luckycharm

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Ahhh how I used to love those classic Marys and Terenure Limerick derbys :p

B O'D is a great example here actualy. B O'D was not on his Rock JCT team [U15], a rather handy team to be fair [he was a sub scrum half behind Ciaran Scally!], so a lot of people in a similar position would/could/will just give up.

People develop at different speeds! It often takes a coach to move a bloke from one position to another [like whoever moved B O'D from 9 to the center] or you will 'rot' in the seconds/thirds.

But a 'weak' person can and will just give up in that kinda situation! But we are lucky we have some savage coaches at schools level..

Did you not see the comma as in Limerick Derby one example, Marys v Gick another

I know plenty of players who were late developers - did not make the SCT and went on to play for Ireland - or at other high levels. I know quite a few players who were really good at school and could not hack it at club level.
For example someone can be big at schools level due to maturing earlier then his peers- they tend not to develop their skills as they get away relying on their size and strenght when in schools but they get found out at club level.

Jonny303

Underage club rugby is on the way up, and I think its all to do with exposure. In general public rugby is talked about far more than say 5 years ago?

If anyone saw the under 18 club leinster final today between Wicklow & Barnhall i think you'd agree that there is HUGE potential there. I dont no from a barnhall point of view but I do know that wicklow were missing some very big players for it.

Also, as regards the Leinster Youths (non school players) i think this is a great scheme. It gives lads who start to play later in their youth (15-16) the chance to make a name for themselves, and then progress on.