What would you say?

Joseph Reilly

Hi all,

Other than evangelism itself I am fascinated by how fellow believers share their faith.

So my question is: If a non-believer point blank asked you why they should become a Christian what would you say?

Please be specific here, as in how you would start off your response and how you would lead the conversation from there.

God bless,

Joe

Zombrex

When you guys have figured this out pop over to the Atheist forum and see it if works

PDN

Joseph Reilly wrote: »

Hi all,

Other than evangelism itself I am fascinated by how fellow believers share their faith.

So my question is: If a non-believer point blank asked you why they should become a Christian what would you say?

Please be specific here, as in how you would start off your response and how you would lead the conversation from there.

God bless,

Joe

In our church we believe that the power of a Christian community where people worship together, love one another & help each other is much more powerful than purely intellectual discussion and arguments. Put very simply, most people today are more interested in knowing whether Christianity works than whether it is true.

So we encourage our people to simply invite their friends along to our Sunday morning service. This is a 'seeker service' that is designed to present the Gospel in as attractive a format as possible for the person who has never experienced evangelical Christianity. Most first time visitors actually love the service. They find the music to be enjoyable and of a higher standard than they experience at most secular events (our worship is a bit Van Morrisonish with a brass section & saxophones etc). Visitors also enjoy the preaching which is conversational in style with plenty of humour and laughter. Most of all they really like the sense of community among church members - something that is missing in a lot of people's lives.

We see several people every week responding to the Christian Gospel and, eventually, joining the Church.

So, I guess the simple answer to your question is that our members tend to say, "You can see it much better for yourself than if I try to describe it to you - so why not come along and see what you think?"

As Psalm 34:8 puts it: "Taste and see that the Lord is good."

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

In our church we believe that the power of a Christian community where people worship together, love one another & help each other is much more powerful than purely intellectual discussion and arguments. Put very simply, most people today are more interested in knowing whether Christianity works than whether it is true.

So we encourage our people to simply invite their friends along to our Sunday morning service. This is a 'seeker service' that is designed to present the Gospel in as attractive a format as possible for the person who has never experienced evangelical Christianity. Most first time visitors actually love the service. They find the music to be enjoyable and of a higher standard than they experience at most secular events (our worship is a bit Van Morrisonish with a brass section & saxophones etc). Visitors also enjoy the preaching which is conversational in style with plenty of humour and laughter. Most of all they really like the sense of community among church members - something that is missing in a lot of people's lives.

We see several people every week responding to the Christian Gospel and, eventually, joining the Church.

So, I guess the simple answer to your question is that our members tend to say, "You can see it much better for yourself than if I try to describe it to you - so why not come along and see what you think?"

As Psalm 34:8 puts it: "Taste and see that the Lord is good."

Just wondering, does anybody ever leave it? Or is it all one-way traffic?

PDN

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Just wondering, does anybody ever leave it? Or is it all one-way traffic?

Oh yes, plenty leave. On average, over a year, for every 5 new members we gain, we lose 1. Of course not all those 5 are new converts, nor are all those who leave abandoning Christianity. We think about 50% of our new members were already Christians before they joined us (moved into the area or transferred from other churches) while about 75% of those who leave continue in their Christianity (leaving the area or transferring to other churches).

Another growth factor is that our church has a very young age profile. So we have about one baby a week being born into families in the church - whereas we've only had 2 members die in the last 10 years (not a testimony to prayer keeping you alive, but rather a reflection that we only have a handful of members aged over 50). Of course the children are too young to become actual members of the church - but they swell the crowd on a Sunday.

Bisar

Also just wondering - at what age can the kids become members of the church?

PDN

Bisar wrote: »

Also just wondering - at what age can the kids become members of the church?

16 years old. Of course we see them as part of the church family before that point - but they can't hold official membership or vote on financial matters etc until they are 16. A good number of our teenagers wait until they are a bit older, 18 or 19, then when they go to College they start to really think through their beliefs for themselves and feel better able to make the decision about membership for themselves.

Bisar

Interesting. Are they baptised at that stage or earlier in life?

PDN

Bisar wrote: »

Interesting. Are they baptised at that stage or earlier in life?

Children may well be baptised sooner. If the child is able to give a clear testimony to having received Christ as their Saviour, and if the parents and the church leaders agree that the child is mature enough to understand the implications of that decision, then we will carry out a baptism.

This is because we see baptism as being a separate issue from membership of our particular church. If we baptise someone we are baptising them into Christ, not into our church. Baptism has no legal standing, but church membership does and is taken into account if property or financial issues ever end up in legal processes.

BrianCalgary

Joseph Reilly wrote: »

Hi all,

Other than evangelism itself I am fascinated by how fellow believers share their faith.

So my question is: If a non-believer point blank asked you why they should become a Christian what would you say?

Please be specific here, as in how you would start off your response and how you would lead the conversation from there.

God bless,

Joe

There could be many answers depending on the person. The life of service in God's will is fantastic. As God knows us better than we know ourselves and gives us the opportunity to grow to our maximum potential.

It really amazes me that, although peopel may look at Christianity as being stick in the mud and no fun sacrifice, it is actually the opposite. You sacrifice things that in teh long run turn out to be not very important at all.

CerebralCortex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

There could be many answers depending on the person. The life of service in God's will is fantastic. As God knows us better than we know ourselves and gives us the opportunity to grow to our maximum potential.

It really amazes me that, although peopel may look at Christianity as being stick in the mud and no fun sacrifice, it is actually the opposite. You sacrifice things that in teh long run turn out to be not very important at all.

Like what?

Húrin

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Like what?

The perceived need to get rich and successful.

BrianCalgary

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Like what?

The need to obtain more. Possibly certain relationships.

Comforts.

hairyheretic

Are you familiar with the Prosperity Gospel (I think that's the right name) view that is operating in the US at the moment? They would seem to say that becoming rich and successfull is their reward in the here and now.

I came across this via an article in Time, I can probably dig up the url for it if need be.

PDN

hairyheretic wrote: »

Are you familiar with the Prosperity Gospel (I think that's the right name) view that is operating in the US at the moment? They would seem to say that becoming rich and successfull is their reward in the here and now.

I came across this via an article in Time, I can probably dig up the url for it if need be.

Very familiar with it. They still believe that a reward awaits after death, but also believe that faith in the here and now will result in physical health and financial prosperity.

There is a kernel of truth in what they say - the Bible does say in a number of passages that God delights in blessing His people this side of heaven. However I think it has been taken to an extreme that simply tries to Christianise the American dream and to appeal to people's basest instincts.

CerebralCortex

Húrin wrote: »

The perceived need to get rich and successful.

This may sound like a silly question but how do you define rich and successful?
And how are they bad things?

CerebralCortex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

The need to obtain more. Possibly certain relationships.

Comforts.

What exactly is wrong with wanting more?

Doctor DooM

CerebralCortex wrote: »

This may sound like a silly question but how do you define rich and successful?
And how are they bad things?

I would assume that by hoarding wealth and not using it to help those in need, you are not being very christian (camels and needles)?

Zombrex

CerebralCortex wrote: »

What exactly wrong with wanting more?

I assume he means consumer lifestyle goods (cars, playstations, ipods), rather than say vaccines, water or a good education.

The idea would be that these things are pointless and don't really make a person happy and pursuit of them takes a person away from more important things. This is normally stated by people who are already financially comfortably well off.

Asiaprod

Wicknight wrote: »

The idea would be that these things are pointless and don't really make a person happy and pursuit of them takes a person away from more important things.

Now where have I seen that life path before;)

Zombrex

Asiaprod wrote: »

Now where have I seen that life path before;)

yeah you religious/philosophical (what ever Buddhism is) types really don't like material possessions .... me personally I like my Playstation 3

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

I assume he means consumer lifestyle goods (cars, playstations, ipods), rather than say vaccines, water or a good education.

The idea would be that these things are pointless and don't really make a person happy and pursuit of them takes a person away from more important things. This is normally stated by people who are already financially comfortably well off.

You are dead on, however where is your proof to back up your last statement that it is normally stated by those who are well off?

To expand upon PDN's post about the wealth gospel.
When I look at my life, I have not been blessed with material wealth but I have been overly blessed with great friends and relationships both here and abroad.

Blessings are much more than material goods, try counting them.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

To expand upon PDN's post about the wealth gospel.
When I look at my life, I have not been blessed with material wealth but I have been overly blessed with great friends and relationships both here and abroad.

Doesn't it though then become not a question of wanting more, but rather a question of wanting more of the right thing (the right thing of course being subjective.

You may not want material wealth, but I imagine you want great friends and relationships? This may seem like a trivial point, but it is actually quite important in how Christianity presents itself.

bogwalrus

The need to be accepted by peers and the society you live in comes before the self actualisatioin needs and more materialistic needs- so says maslows hierarchy of needs. This could possibly mean that people who struggle in being accepted by society and in a certain group at this stage may never get to the materialistic stage and the on to have a sense of self actualisation..etc

I find that people who end up having everything (money,women big house, big car etc) get to have a really good look at what is really missing from their lives and thus realise what they truly want in life, self actualisation maybe?

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

Doesn't it though then become not a question of wanting more, but rather a question of wanting more of the right thing (the right thing of course being subjective.

You may not want material wealth, but I imagine you want great friends and relationships? This may seem like a trivial point, but it is actually quite important in how Christianity presents itself.

I actually dont want anymore of anything. God gives by His blessings and I receive without looking.

BTW have you come up with any evidence to support your statement:
The idea would be that these things are pointless and don't really make a person happy and pursuit of them takes a person away from more important things. This is normally stated by people who are already financially comfortably well off.

I'm amazed that Robin hasn't asked for proof of this statement.

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I'm amazed that Robin hasn't asked for proof of this statement.

Six hours, dude -- give me time -- though in this case, it's hardly worth it as I think it's pretty self-evident, if I understand it correctly, which I'm not sure that I do. I do have a day-job too, btw.

In reply to your carping, have you ever actually tried to understand what "proof" means yourself?

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

Doesn't it though then become not a question of wanting more, but rather a question of wanting more of the right thing (the right thing of course being subjective.

You may not want material wealth, but I imagine you want great friends and relationships? This may seem like a trivial point, but it is actually quite important in how Christianity presents itself.

I could certainly do with a bit more material wealth. I also believe that God wants me to have a happy marriage, fulfilling relationships and a whole host of other things in the here and now.

Christians need to be prepared to follow Jesus Christ and, if necessary, to suffer persecution, loss or even death for His sake. That certainly does not mean I long for martyrdom, or that there is some kind of inherent virtue in being poor.

The problem with the so-called 'Prosperity Gospel' is that it presents material blessing as the inevitable consequence of faith, and sees financial prosperity as a mark of divine approval on one's life. That is a distortion of the Christian message.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I actually dont want anymore of anything. God gives by His blessings and I receive without looking.

BTW have you come up with any evidence to support your statement:
This is normally stated by people who are already financially comfortably well off.

None apart from antedotial, which I thought was implied by the "normally" I inserted in front of the statement. If I had proof I probably would have said "This is stated by people who are already financially comfortably well off"

If it makes it clearly I cannot prove that it is stated by people who are already financially comfortable.

Put it this way, have you heard of many Christians stating that they do not want money for water, food, shelter, medicine etc. How many Christians living in poverty say they do not want?

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

The problem with the so-called 'Prosperity Gospel' is that it presents material blessing as the inevitable consequence of faith, and sees financial prosperity as a mark of divine approval on one's life. That is a distortion of the Christian message.

Does that hold equally for non-material blessing? Would it be wrong for someone to expect that because of their faith they will be blessed with friends, fulfilling relationships, etc

(not a trick, genuine question)

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

Does that hold equally for non-material blessing? Would it be wrong for someone to expect that because of their faith they will be blessed with friends, fulfilling relationships, etc

(not a trick, genuine question)

It would be a mistake to say that these things are the inevitable result of faith in God.

It is perfectly in order for Christians to desire, and to pray for, things that we find beneficial (both material and non-material). I prayed for a good wife and I got one. I prayed for a house of my own and I got one. I prayed for a parking space in Drogheda yesterday and I got one. However, I must also recognise that I have no right to expect any of these things.

I could easily have lived a life where I remained single, despite my prayers. I could have prayed for my own home all my life and still lived always in rented property. I could pray for a parking space and still end up having to park miles outside of town. (I once took a group from our church to a big game at Lansdowne Road in a minibus. I prayed for God to give us a parking space. We finally parked over a mile from the stadium. As we got out of the minibus one of the guys said, "I don't think much of the Lord's choice of parking space. )

So, it is OK for Christians to want things. It is OK for them to pray for them. It is even OK for us to recognise the fact that, on average, Christians may get more of these things (sociologists speak of "redemption lift" - by which converts to Protestant forms of Christianity experience disproportionate economic advancement). However, it is not OK for Christians to expect these things, to blame God for their absence, or to make such things their main focus.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

It would be a mistake to say that these things are the inevitable result of faith in God.

It is perfectly in order for Christians to desire, and to pray for, things that we find beneficial (both material and non-material). I prayed for a good wife and I got one. I prayed for a house of my own and I got one. I prayed for a parking space in Drogheda yesterday and I got one. However, I must also recognise that I have no right to expect any of these things.

I could easily have lived a life where I remained single, despite my prayers. I could have prayed for my own home all my life and still lived always in rented property. I could pray for a parking space and still end up having to park miles outside of town. (I once took a group from our church to a big game at Lansdowne Road in a minibus. I prayed for God to give us a parking space. We finally parked over a mile from the stadium. As we got out of the minibus one of the guys said, "I don't think much of the Lord's choice of parking space. )

So, it is OK for Christians to want things. It is OK for them to pray for them. It is even OK for us to recognise the fact that, on average, Christians may get more of these things (sociologists speak of "redemption lift" - by which converts to Protestant forms of Christianity experience disproportionate economic advancement). However, it is not OK for Christians to expect these things, to blame God for their absence, or to make such things their main focus.

So what you are saying is that it is ok for a Christian to want things, material or otherwise, but not to the point where such a desire gets him him angry or annoyed that he doesn't have them, or such a desire has a negative effect on his life or his faith. The person is not owed happiness, it is something they must find themselves.

It is a good philosophy, one I share (in my own atheist materialist manner of course ).

I often see some of my friends looking around for things that they think should make them happy because they feel this sense of entitlement to be happy, in essence that the world owes them happiness in some form. If they aren't happy someone isn't doing their job properly (often this is directed towards their friends, including me)

This of course never works and simply leads them to further bitterness towards outside world, which is rather unfortunate.

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote: »

Six hours, dude -- give me time -- though in this case, it's hardly worth it as I think it's pretty self-evident, if I understand it correctly, which I'm not sure that I do. I do have a day-job too, btw.

In reply to your carping, have you ever actually tried to understand what "proof" means yourself?

Over on another thread wolfsbane makes a comment about atheists in jail and you are up screaming for proof of his statement, survey, papers, etc.

You have required the same of me when I make like statements, yet wicknight makes one like this and you are silent in seeking proof.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

None apart from antedotial, which I thought was implied by the "normally" I inserted in front of the statement. If I had proof I probably would have said "This is stated by people who are already financially comfortably well off"

If it makes it clearly I cannot prove that it is stated by people who are already financially comfortable.

Put it this way, have you heard of many Christians stating that they do not want money for water, food, shelter, medicine etc. How many Christians living in poverty say they do not want?

Just want to be clear that you make claims without any proof that can be googled. Now I trust that you will afford Christians the same courtesy?

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

Put it this way, have you heard of many Christians stating that they do not want money for water, food, shelter, medicine etc. How many Christians living in poverty say they do not want?

I have never heard anyone of any faith say any such thing, so what?

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Over on another thread wolfsbane makes a comment about atheists in jail and you are up screaming for proof of his statement, survey, papers, etc.

No, I didn't "scream for proof" and I don't think it's very honest of you to say that I did. If you read the post you're referring to, I'm actually pointing out, brusquely, that a ridiculous blanket claim that one poster made -- that everybody except him and his co-religionists is a criminal -- is nonsense. Personally, I'm not one; I don't like it implied that I am one; and I haven't noticed you stepping in to rein in wolfsbane's obnoxiousness.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

You have required the same of me when I make like statements, yet wicknight makes one like this and you are silent in seeking proof.

Well, as you say that I don't ask enough questions, let's try:

Wicknight -- I don't quite understand the point you're making in this post. I think you're saying that people who are well-off typically don't spend much time opining about things that one opines about when one is not not well-off. Can you back up this claim, please? It seems self-evident to me, as I've stated it here, but perhaps I don't understand your point correctly.

Zombrex

robindch wrote: »

Wicknight -- I don't quite understand the point you're making in this post. I think you're saying that people who are well-off typically don't spend much time opining about things that one opines about when one is not not well-off. Can you back up this claim, please? It seems self-evident to me, as I've stated it here, but perhaps I don't understand your point correctly.

Certainly.

The point I was (possibly unclearly) attempting to make is that the "necessity" of a material goods are defined by how comfortable a person is in the first place.

A Christian with a cassette player and a few cassettes might say that an iPod is pointless and he has no desire to upgrade just for the sake of it. If this Christian won an iPod they might give it to someone else, saying they neither want nor need it.

On the other hand a poorer Christian who has never had anything in the realm of audio/visual equipment might be eternally grateful if he was given or won an iPod, allowing him to experience music on a personal level.

It was in response to Brian's comment "You sacrifice things that in teh long run turn out to be not very important at all."

My point was that what is important is relative. Material goods are only "not very important" to someone who is already comfortably off. To a worker in a Nike factory an iPod would be very important.

[EDIT] To clarify I can't prove this with Google ... if people disagree that is grand. It is purely my opinion [/EDIT]