Music Production turning into an advertising board

jtsuited

Could somebody please take a look at how the Music production forum has lately turned into a place of marketing for one particular poster (Paul Brewer) who has clearly joined boards with the intention of using it as a place to develop a customer base?

You only have to look at his post history, and the general vibe on Music Production lately to see what I'm talking about.

While I know that there is no explicit shilling going on, the person in question is clearly using boards for a commercial purpose. here are some examples:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055231963

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055243269

It is annoying me of late, as if many of his competitors began to use boards in the same way, that particular forum would turn into a joke.

TelePaul

Couldn't disagree more. You've no idea how much of a valuable asset someone with industry experience is to a forum dedicated to project recording. I think we're lucky to have such a varied knowledge-base with regular contributions from the likes of cornbb, studio rat and paul brewer. Neither of those posts you've linked to are commercially driven; they're for the benefit of forum members. I think suggesting that Paul is using the forum to spam is doing both him and the Music Production forum a huge discredit.

cornbb

You forgot to post links to the extremely helpful posts that Paul has made in the forum. He is a highly experienced member of the Irish pro-audio community and a consistently helpful poster. He is well-known enough in the Irish pro-audio community without having to draw attention to himself and has made an active effort to get discussions going, and to help less-experienced posters. The posts you link to refer to pro-audio events, not anything he is selling that I am aware of.

You already hijacked a thread with this crusade of yours (here - relevant posts have been deleted but admins can take a look if they wish) where a significant number of posters disagreed entirely with you and the mods also ruled against you. Can you point out more threads which indicate the alledged commercial "vibe of the place"?

The rules on advertising are in the charter and are quite clear, I don't believe they have been breached.

dr.bollocko

I love feedback. Nobody is ever right. Except the guy with the cat picture.

jtsuited

If you think that this guy is doing out of no commercial interest, you're just being plain silly.

Really pathetic.
If I get a few people I know in that side of the business doing the same, you think that would be a good thing?

For god's sake, the guy is namedropping left, right and centre and making out that he has extensive pro experience(citation needed).
I really am dissappointed at people on that forum not seeing through the sh1te-talk.

my god you guys are being extraordinarily naiive. I'm done with it.

randylonghorn

dr.bollocko wrote: »

I love feedback. Nobody is ever right. Except the guy with the cat picture.

Well, doc, when TelePaul is standing up for the mods and telling the OP he's wrong wrong wrong ...

Have you been keeping up with the other Feedback discussions to-day?

jtsuited

and also 'this crusade of mine' cornbb, is actually pointing out sh1t-talkers in the 'industry' as soon as they open their mouth. You obviously have a problem with that.

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

and also 'this crusade of mine' cornbb, is actually pointing out sh1t-talkers in the 'industry' as soon as they open their mouth. You obviously have a problem with that.

He's done nothing wrong - read the posts and the charter again.

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

I'm done with it.

Well I guess that's that then. Talk about a self-defeating argument.

jtsuited

cornbb wrote: »

(here - relevant posts have been deleted but admins can take a look if they wish)

i'd love actually if Dev took a look at the deleted parts. I've seen him murder people for far less on the Poker forums.
I'd be very surprised if the admins found no wrongdoing here.

TelePaul

randylonghorn wrote: »

Well, doc, when TelePaul is standing up for the mods and telling the OP he's wrong wrong wrong ...

Have you been keeping up with the other Feedback discussions to-day?

If I'm honest, I'll admit that cat pic actually pissed me off a bit.

jtsuited

TelePaul wrote: »

Well I guess that's that then. Talk about a self-defeating argument.

i meant i'm done with it on that particular forum. i'll still point out that your posts are absolutely irrelavant and useless in this thread.

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

i'd love actually if Dev took a look at the deleted parts. I've seen him murder people for far less on the Poker forums.
I'd be very surprised if the admins found no wrongdoing here.

Look, it's a community. We support each other.

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

i meant i'm done with it on that particular forum. i'll still point out that you're posts are absolutely irrelavant and useless in this thread.

You're posts?

I am posts?

jtsuited

do you mind not hijacking this thread?

cornbb

jtsuited wrote: »

i'd love actually if Dev took a look at the deleted parts. I've seen him murder people for far less on the Poker forums.
I'd be very surprised if the admins found no wrongdoing here.

You're lucky the deleted parts didn't get you banned. Most of the forum regulars plus both the forum mods chimed in to disagree with you. Where is all this coming from, do you have a vendetta against Paul?

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

do you mind not hijacking this thread?

Who's hijacking? You started by making a rational argument, I refuted it, you called a member a 'sh1t-talker'. It doesn't seem to have alot of potential.

jtsuited

don't even know the guy. but i do know marketing when i see it. and it really annoys me to see someone constantly post with the sole intention of making themselves a bigger presence on the forum.
And when the purpose of making said presence more prominent is commercial reasons, I feel someone should stand up and point out what's going on.

And I was 'lucky to not get a ban'. While what i said was harsh, it was absolutely true and relevant. After you deleted the bits, another poster not involved even called it a 'reasonable discussion'.

jtsuited

Telepaul, I didn't take this issue over here to argue with you. I don't honestly care about your opinion on the matter. So don't post in this thread. Start another one. It doesn't really concern you.

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

don't even know the guy. but i do know marketing when i see it. and it really annoys me to see someone constantly post with the sole intention of making themselves a bigger presence on the forum.
And when the purpose of making said presence more prominent is commercial reasons, I feel someone should stand up and point out what's going on.

And I was 'lucky to not get a ban'. While what i said was harsh, it was absolutely true and relevant. After you deleted the bits, another poster not involved even called it a 'reasonable discussion'.

To be honest mate, if anyones going to be wary, perhaps overly wary of marketing, it's the mod. That's why he's the mod. And Cornbb is okay with the way things are right now.

jtsuited

TelePaul wrote: »

You started by making a rational argument,

Do you normally refute rational arguments with such a flimsy retort?

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

Telepaul, I didn't take this issue over here to argue with you. I don't honestly care about your opinion on the matter.

Are you new here? It doesn't work that way. Although i suppose if I was agreeing with you, I doubt you'd object.

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

Do you normally refute rational arguments with such a flimsy retort?

That wasn't a retort...it was just a statement of fact. I'm stating what happened in the thread - read back over it if you don't believe me.

cornbb

jtsuited wrote: »

do you mind not hijacking this thread?

Pot calling the kettle black tbh, given what you've been up to in Music Production for the last couple of days.

Look - he's not been shilling, he's not been spamming, he hasn't tried to push a single product on any user. He has drawn attention to events of genuine interest (not run by his company), something that doesn't happen very often on our forum. There's no boards-wide rule against that, and the Music Production mods certainly have no problem with it. He is popular with every poster bar you, and has helped raise the bar in the forum in terms of professional knowledge.

jtsuited

TelePaul wrote: »

To be honest mate, if anyones going to be wary, perhaps overly wary of marketing, it's the mod. That's why he's the mod. And Cornbb is okay with the way things are right now.

So let me get this straight. You guys think that the person in question has come to boards without a commercial interest?
Or you think he came because of his interest in such matters and just happens to centre nearly all his posts on publicising his business?
Or maybe you think that he is here clearly out of genuine interest and enthusiasm?

well if it's that last one, I really don't think he would have his sig. I really don't think he would have made his "Ladies and Gentlemen" or "Sonic Safari" posts. And I really don't he'd be doing most of the things he does.

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

Or maybe you think that he is here clearly out of genuine interest and enthusiasm?

Yes. That's exactly what I believe.

cornbb

jtsuited wrote: »

And I was 'lucky to not get a ban'. While what i said was harsh, it was absolutely true and relevant. After you deleted the bits, another poster not involved even called it a 'reasonable discussion'.

Savman, just like everyone else, was on the opposite side of the fence to you. He was complaining that the posts should have been left there in order to continue the discussion, I don't believe that was in your favour.

TelePaul

cornbb wrote: »

Savman, just like everyone else, was on the opposite side of the fence to you. He was complaining that the posts should have been left there in order to continue the discussion, I don't believe that was in your favour.

I think he wanted them left because he believed Paul Brewer was doing a fine job of defending himself.

randylonghorn

jtsuited wrote: »

well if it's that last one, I really don't think he would have his sig.

Tbh, I'd be a lot more suspicious of his motives if he wasn't so open about his identity / day job. It's called "declaring an interest", and people can filter what he posts through their knowledge of who he is, and decide how much of what he says to take on board based on that.

jtsuited

cornbb wrote: »

Look - he's not been shilling,

that's true[/QUOTE]

cornbb wrote: »

he's not been spamming,

His sonic safari post can clearly be seen as a sophisticated form of spamming.


"he has however
He has drawn attention to events of genuine interest (not run by his company)", .[/QUOTE]

eh where. every event he has drawn attention to was being run by his company http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055215041

or am i missing something?

cornbb

TelePaul wrote: »

I think he wanted them left because he believed Paul Brewer was doing a fine job of defending himself.

Without wanting to put words in his mouth yes, I believe that was the gist of it. I'm not going to publish the contents of deleted posts but the admins can check it up if they wish.

There are plenty of posters on boards who make their involvement with a business clear, I've seen them in Broadband, Computers & Technology, Photography, all over the place. As long as they make their associations clear and don't spam or shill or otherwise use the place for advertising purposes I'm not aware that there is any problem. The accusation that the Music Production is a host for such activities is wholly inaccurate.

jtsuited

TelePaul wrote: »

Yes. That's exactly what I believe.

well i really am not going to argue with you anymore. you clearly have a warped sense of reality.

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

well i really am not going to argue with you anymore. you clearly have a warped sense of reality.

Yeah, and I'm in the majority :eek: Scary isn't it?

Look, I don't want this to get personal. No problem with you, didn't mean to hijack your complaint. Just dont agree with what you're saying, that's all.

jtsuited

cornbb wrote: »

The accusation that the Music Production is a host for such activities is wholly inaccurate.

Hold on a second, you already admitted to me in PM that the guy had been "toeing the line".
So how is it 'wholly inaccurate' to make this accusation?

Contradictary arguments in fashion now?

cornbb

jtsuited wrote: »

eh where. every event he has drawn attention to was being run by his company http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055215041

or am i missing something?

Oh fine, so I missed that one.

That event was of genuine interest to our users. It happens all the time on boards. Here's an example from the Photography forum. Perhaps you'd like to hijack that thread too on your quest to rid boards of a community spirit?

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

Hold on a second, you already admitted to me in PM that the guy had been "toeing the line".


Contradictary arguments in fashion now?

Dude, you know toeing the line means conforming to established rules, right?

orestes

Quick piece of advice man, I'm not weighing in on the disussion here, but giving details of pm's between yourself and someone else isn't cool

cornbb

jtsuited wrote: »

Hold on a second, you already admitted to me in PM that the guy had been "toeing the line".
So how is it 'wholly inaccurate' to make this accusation?

Contradictary arguments in fashion now?

Quite frankly, I said that to shut you up and get you off my back.

jtsuited

cornbb wrote: »

Oh fine, so I missed that one.

That event was of genuine interest to our users. It happens all the time on boards. Here's an example from the Photography forum. Perhaps you'd like to hijack that thread too on your quest to rid boards of a community spirit?

eh no. When a community spirit is used for someone's commercial gain yes I think there is a particular problem.

I brought that up in response to your blatantly wrong statement. in fact as far as i can see every event has been run by his company.

Btw, did i hijack the linked thread. no, as i thought ' this guy is new, seems a little bit like a marketing exercise but would benefit most people'.

a few weeks and constant 'buzz creation' posts later and i felt the need to speak up.

jtsuited

cornbb wrote: »

Quite frankly, I said that to shut you up and get you off my back.

so it was a lie? you don't think he's been toeing the line? you lie to people via pm on a regular basis?

and there was me thinking mods should have a reasonable amount of integrity.

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

eh no. When a community spirit is used for someone's commercial gain yes I think there is a particular problem.

I brought that up in response to your blatantly wrong statement. in fact as far as i can see every event has been run by his company.

Btw, did i hijack the linked thread. no, as i thought ' this guy is new, seems a little bit like a marketing exercise but would benefit most people'.

a few weeks and constant 'buzz creation' posts later and i felt the need to speak up.

You aren't by any chance studying marketing are you? I think theres a difference between what Pauls about and some sprt of genius stealth marketing campaign.

studiorat

jtsuited wrote: »

If you think that this guy is doing out of no commercial interest, you're just being plain silly.

Really pathetic.
If I get a few people I know in that side of the business doing the same, you think that would be a good thing?

For god's sake, the guy is namedropping left, right and centre and making out that he has extensive pro experience(citation needed).
I really am dissappointed at people on that forum not seeing through the sh1te-talk.

my god you guys are being extraordinarily naiive. I'm done with it.

I guess I'm a Pro, keeping an eye on what's going on that forum is of commercial interest to me. Being here lets me know who's about, what kind of work people are doing, who's using what etc. The project home studio has become a market for me too, not as a dealer but in other ways.

Why wouldn't a few more people with commercial interests joining in on the (ex-pro audio) forum be a bad thing? The people at Gearslutz and R.A.P. make no secret of their commercial interests, there's never any shilling wars going on there, if someone want's to tell me he has such and such for a certain price I have no problem with that.

PB has extensive experience, I first met him when he was one of the very few people in the country who could program a drum machine! You used to get paid for doing that alone, God be with the days... Anyway, to mention a client list that's not accurate under your real name and the company you work for would be daft, very un-cool in business circles. It's just not done. His being here is genuine interest in the forum and to help.

sh1te talk? (citation needed)

Oh, BTW OP! maybe you should compare these posts before you get back up on your horse http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055241868

and a "Sticky" I might add...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055164001

and a few others in Bands and Musicians too...

Ask the people!

PS. the replies to the PM's I receive always state that I am available for hire!

jtsuited

orestes wrote: »

Quick piece of advice man, I'm not weighing in on the disussion here, but giving details of pm's between yourself and someone else isn't cool

yes but when a mod (acting as a mod) blatantly contradicts himself, i feel it's fair enough to make it known.

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

so it was a lie? you don't think he's been toeing the line? you lie to people via pm on a regular basis?

and there was me thinking mods should have a reasonable amount of integrity.

Dude, PLEASE find a definiton for toeing the line. It means behaving yourself. So there's no contradictory argument; the beilef that Paul Brewer is 'toeing the line' and that your representation of Music Production is 'wholly inaccurate' are supportive of each other.

jtsuited

look at cornbb's 'quite frankly post' for proof that toeing the line in this instance meant 'being fairly close to breaking the rules'.

hence the reason he has used that fairly pathetic excuse for being contradictory.

TelePaul

jtsuited wrote: »

look at cornbb's 'quite frankly post' for proof.

Proof of what?

All it proves it that you both might have used the phrase out of context; Cornbb might be able to confirm this. Personally, I found it confusing when I saw it too. Disinformation can do that - it's the chewbacca defense.

cornbb

jtsuited wrote: »

yes but when a mod (acting as a mod) blatantly contradicts himself, i feel it's fair enough to make it known.

You've got some nerve. I put up with your repeated in-thread finger pointing and patiently replied to your hysteric PMs when many mods would have banned you. I very, very rarely put my mod hat on in the MP forum and because I disagree with you you accuse me of having below-par integrity. For the record frobisher, the other active forum mod, agreed with me.

I'd love to hear feedback from other MP users on how me and frobisher run the forum. Getting lonely yet jtsuited?

jtsuited

TelePaul wrote: »

Dude, PLEASE find a definiton for toeing the line. It means behaving yourself. .

the mod did not mean that he was behaving himself. while i know this phrase can often mean that, if you read up on it you'll find that it is an oft disputed phrase.

jtsuited

cornbb wrote: »

You've got some nerve. I put up with your repeated in-thread finger pointing and patiently replied to your hysteric PMs when many mods would have banned you. I very, very rarely put my mod hat on in the MP forum and because I disagree with you you accuse me of having below-par integrity. For the record frobisher, the other active forum mod, agreed with me.

I'd love to hear feedback from other MP users on how me and frobisher run the forum. Getting lonely yet jtsuited?

you've also got some nerve. trying to avoid the point that you said something 'to keep me off your back', and are now using the idea that popular opinion is of course correct.

"getting lonely jtsuited?"
lol. i don't use the internet to feel some sort of social connection. clearly from your question you do.
feeling popular cornbb?

cornbb

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/toe_the_line wrote:

toe the line

1. (idiomatic) To abide by the rules or conventions.

There, let that be an end to that stupid pedantic point. I'll kindly ask you to not reveal the contents of PMs.

jtsuited

TelePaul wrote: »

Proof of what?

All it proves it that you both might have used the phrase out of context; Cornbb might be able to confirm this. Personally, I found it confusing when I saw it too. Disinformation can do that - it's the chewbacca defense.

yes he did use it out of context. and we both understood what he meant even though grammatically he meant something different