Topic Guardianship. Question: Sooner or Later?

d2b

Hi all,

Single Dad basically wondering how long I should wait to bring up the topic of Guardianship with my Son's Mum.

He is 4 months old. Mum and I never really knew each other. All monetary and structured visiting arrangements are in place. My relationship with his Mum could be described as heading in the right direction regarding our Son's duty of care. I was originally thinking of leaving the issue alone for 9-12 months to build trust, rapport etc. Over the past few weeks I have started to think about raising the topic sooner and sooner. Why? I'm not sure. His Mum is doing a really good job and I would support her decisions as I believe she knows best. I suppose that I am concious that even if I did have a different opinion it ultimately wouldn't matter!

I am fairly certain a judge would grant Guardianship if the case presented itself (nice guy, good job, trying hard to be the good shephard etc), however, I get the impression that Mum may be sensitive about the issue and I don't want to rock the boat, etc.

Net question: should I wait in the wings and build up trust and reputation for a time or is it better for all concerned to introduce the topic early on?

I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has gone through this who may be willing to share their experience on the matter. In any case thanks for reading and my apologies for the novel (!) but I felt giving this much info may aid those who wish to reply.

TequilaMockingBird

Its your right to go for it now. The fact that you are concerned that it may rock the boat, so early in your childs life, and are respectful of the job the Mum is doing makes me think its probably not going to be a problem. Imo, its the guys who bowl in after little or no input into the childs life for years, then look for guardianship, that the nappy hits the fan.

Quality

Are you on the birth certificate?

I would apply for it straight away, Make your intentions known to Mam at the start. An open and honest relationship will be needed.

K-9

Double post

K-9

d2b wrote:

Hi all,
He is 4 months old. Mum and I never really knew each other.

It can be very early for a lot of Mums, especially if you both didn't really know each each other, to ask for guardianship. Some are still at the protective, hormonal, I know best stage! :rolleyes:

d2b wrote:

All monetary and structured visiting arrangements are in place. My relationship with his Mum could be described as heading in the right direction regarding our Son's duty of care.

Good, keep doing that. The Judge and hopefully the Mum will recognise that.

d2b wrote:

I was originally thinking of leaving the issue alone for 9-12 months to build trust, rapport etc. Over the past few weeks I have started to think about raising the topic sooner and sooner. Why? I'm not sure. His Mum is doing a really good job and I would support her decisions as I believe she knows best.

You are trying to balance the often, opposing concerns of not offending the mother and the increasing bond with your child. Mothers do not always know best which is why there is guardianship. If you feel strongly enough enough about something you can let a judge decide on an issue when you have guardianship.

d2b wrote:

I suppose that I am concious that even if I did have a different opinion it ultimately wouldn't matter!

If it's important enough, your opinion will matter. Look at Mr.G!

D2B wrote:

I am fairly certain a judge would grant Guardianship if the case presented itself (nice guy, good job, trying hard to be the good shephard etc), however, I get the impression that Mum may be sensitive about the issue and I don't want to rock the boat, etc.

The big one for me here is:
Do you have overnights yet? If you do and she trusts you with the baby overnight, she should trust you with Guardianship. If you don't, look for overnights before Guardianship.

Bye the way, Guardianship is granted in over 90% of cases, some agreed amicably, some not. So, the mother does not always know best.

sueme wrote:

The fact that you are concerned that it may rock the boat, so early in your childs life, and are respectful of the job the Mum is doing makes me think its probably not going to be a problem. Imo, its the guys who bowl in after little or no input into the childs life for years, then look for guardianship, that the nappy hits the fan

It can still be a problem for men who have to deal with posessive, insecure and dare I say it, controlling mothers. The Mother always knows best type! I often hear of cases like D2B's even when the baby is 1 year old where the mother is reluctant.

93% success rate in getting guardianship, would say sometimes the Nappy shouldn't hit the fan, in the majority of cases.

DinoBot

d2b wrote: »

Hi all,

Single Dad basically wondering how long I should wait to bring up the topic of Guardianship with my Son's Mum.

He is 4 months old. Mum and I never really knew each other. All monetary and structured visiting arrangements are in place. My relationship with his Mum could be described as heading in the right direction regarding our Son's duty of care. I was originally thinking of leaving the issue alone for 9-12 months to build trust, rapport etc. Over the past few weeks I have started to think about raising the topic sooner and sooner. Why? I'm not sure. His Mum is doing a really good job and I would support her decisions as I believe she knows best. I suppose that I am concious that even if I did have a different opinion it ultimately wouldn't matter!

I am fairly certain a judge would grant Guardianship if the case presented itself (nice guy, good job, trying hard to be the good shephard etc), however, I get the impression that Mum may be sensitive about the issue and I don't want to rock the boat, etc.

Net question: should I wait in the wings and build up trust and reputation for a time or is it better for all concerned to introduce the topic early on?

I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has gone through this who may be willing to share their experience on the matter. In any case thanks for reading and my apologies for the novel (!) but I felt giving this much info may aid those who wish to reply.

Its not a big deal. You post as if your applying for custody or something

Its much better to get stuff like that sorted while things are going well. Applying for it in no way is implying that the mum is doing a bad job. It just ties up any loose ends because your not married.

Defo bring it up and discuss any issues or fears she may have. Why do you think she might be sensitive about the issue ?

gcgirl

If you contest the Guardianship the father will not get it ! So if some guy has a child that was conceived through rape or what ever is he entitled to Guardianship ! Luckly thats not why i contested my kids father in his seeking Guardianship He uses the kids as a tax credit and has not been much of a father to them missed bdays and operations! and thats when we were together!

K-9

gcgirl wrote:

If you contest the Guardianship the father will not get it !

Guardianship is successful in 93% of court cases. Confused ???

gcgirl wrote:

So if some guy has a child that was conceived through rape or what ever is he entitled to Guardianship

Probably part of the 7% that dont get it!

gcgirl wrote:

! Luckly thats not why i contested my kids father in his seeking Guardianship He uses the kids as a tax credit and has not been much of a father to them missed bdays and operations! and thats when we were together!

What has that got to do with the OP? Confused ???

gcgirl

Ask a soliciter they will tell you the ins and outs !

gcgirl

Seanies32 wrote: »

Guardianship is successful in 93% of court cases. Confused ???



Probably part of the 7% that dont get it!



What has that got to do with the OP? Confused ???

sorry but i don't really understand the 93%? that might go uncontested!
Guardianship is not custody its only really applys if anything happens the mother ie death/or some other thing that incompacitates her!

metrovelvet

thoeretically it's supposed to give you an equal say in the moral, medical, religious, and educational upbringing of the child but who knows how it can be enforced.

I think you should just come straight out and ask for it. If she says no apply through the courts. If you leave it too long it could be very hard to change precedent.

K-9

gcgirl wrote: »

sorry but i don't really understand the 93%?

It was in response to this:

gcgirl wrote:

If you contest the Guardianship the father will not get it !

Judges regularly award it against the mothers wishes.

gcgirl wrote:

Guardianship is not custody its only really applys if anything happens the mother ie death/or some other thing that incompacitates her!

It gives the Dad a say over schooling, health and important areas. Also the Mum can't feck of to another country just because it suits her!

d2b

Lots of interesting aspects there to think about, thanks to all those who replied.

Its not a big deal. You post as if your applying for custody or something

You may be right Dinbot, but believe me, Mum of Son is very much in the hormonal, protective "he's mine" stage. Even getting the birth cert re-registered was difficult and nearly didn't happen as she felt that the locus of control of our Son was shifting away from her.

Metrevolent I like what you said about introducing the idea sooner rather than later as I then won't be trying to change a precedent. This was my thoughts on the matter also originally. I felt, however, that if I introduce the topic of Guardianship (even as a discussion to test the water) that Mum may see this as steps to take her Son away from her considering the birth cert scenario.

Seanies I also appreciate the time you took to make your comments. Very helpful. Thanks.

Basically the last thing I want is to potentially hamper any fostering of a good working relationship with Mum of Son. Don't wanna end up doing the whole court thing - for Son's sake.

I would be interested to hear from single mothers on this.

d2b

Lots of interesting aspects there to think about, thanks to all those who replied.

[/QUOTE] Its not a big deal. You post as if your applying for custody or something [/QUOTE]

You may be right Dinbot, but believe me, Mum of Son is very much in the hormonal, protective "he's mine" stage. Even getting the birth cert re-registered was difficult and nearly didn't happen as she felt that the locus of control of our Son was shifting away from her.

Metrevolent I like what you said about introducing the idea sooner rather than later as I then won't be trying to change a precedent. This was my thoughts on the matter also originally. I felt, however, that if I introduce the topic of Guardianship (even as a discussion to test the water) that Mum may see this as steps to take her Son away from her considering the birth cert scenario.

Seanies I also appreciate the time you took to make your comments. Very helpful. Thanks.

[/QUOTE] Do you have overnights yet? If you do and she trusts you with the baby overnight, she should trust you with Guardianship. If you don't, look for overnights before Guardianship. [/QUOTE]

No, breastfeeding makes this impossible in the short term. In the medium to long term I'm building so haven't got a place I that I would consider suitable to bring him at the moment. In the future hopefully though!


Basically, at the end of the day, the last thing I want is to potentially hamper any fostering of a good working relationship with Mum of Son. Don't wanna end up doing the whole court thing - for Son's sake.

I would be interested to hear from single mothers on this.

DinoBot

d2b wrote: »

Basically the last thing I want is to potentially hamper any fostering of a good working relationship with Mum of Son. Don't wanna end up doing the whole court thing - for Son's sake.

I would be interested to hear from single mothers on this.

Perhaps if you explain your fears a bit better people can help more.

So, what exactly do you think getting guardianship will enable you to do which you cant do now ?
How exactly will it "hamper any fostering of a good working relationship with Mum of Son" in your option ?

metrovelvet

Why do you feel she thinks it would indicate steps to take her baby away?

Its good that you have been involved and part of the child's life so that if it didgo to court you would get guardianship.

I would not have a problem with guardianship myself except for the leaving the country part. I am American and my son isnt an Irish citizen so I dont think it would be fair that I could be charged with abduction for leaving the country. Other than that I would have no problem with it.

Relations can change - court or no court - guardianship is as much for your son as for you.

Really - I think you should just come out and say it -"I would like guardianship. I hope this isnt a problem for you. If you have insecurities about it, please air them and I can try to reassure you the best that I can."

d2b

Yes perhaps the direct approach is best with this one.

Many thanks for your colletive points of view.

kathy2

There is an incorrect figure of 93% being thrown around here.

The true figure is 69%;)

Nevyn

kathy2 wrote: »

There is an incorrect figure of 93% being thrown around here.

The true figure is 69%;)

Well what is your source on that ?

The Corinthian

d2b wrote: »

Single Dad basically wondering how long I should wait to bring up the topic of Guardianship with my Son's Mum.

There are two issues involved, of which the first is the mother. Single mothers automatically call all the shots with regards to the upbringing of their children, so ceding any of this control can often be psychologically difficult for them. The law has given them a 'cake and eat it' situation with regards to parental rights, and you'll get a lot of rationalization where it comes to maintaining that monopoly. This isn't really a criticism, just that they are as prone to human nature as anyone else.

The second issue is the value of guardianship, and this is debatable. A father who is a guardian technically does have a number of legal rights, but most of these are unenforceable. The only useful ones are in the case of the mother taking the child outside of the state (to live, on holidays is much harder to block) and the right to custody in the event that the mother dies or is incapacitated. In both cases, you don't actually need guardianship to enforce these, but it is a lot, lot harder to do.

I would seek guardianship, but would not go legal if I can avoid it, if I were you as a good relationship with the mother is worth it's weight in gold and if not there, then guardianship will be the least of your worries. Point out that it is only fair (carries little weight in my experience) and the issue of where the child goes if she dies (much stronger argument).

Give her plenty of time to consider it and allay whatever fears she may have. But if she rejects it after a year, then pursue it legally if you intend to remain involved in the child's life.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well what is your source on that ?

Statistics in such cases are very difficult to guage, however I believe the 69% figure appartains to 2003, while more recent figures are around 96%.

The mood of the courts has been changing over the last decade or so, to deal with the imbalance of rights towards fathers and it would be reasonable to assume that we will, moving forward, see more fathers successfully contesting guardianship, rather than less. I've been told, by family lawyers, that it is pretty much a certainty nowadays in Ireland if a father contests it in court - outside of extreme circumstances, the father being a professional felon or an addict.

K-9

kathy2 wrote: »

There is an incorrect figure of 93% being thrown around here.

The true figure is 69%;)

I'd like a source on that too!

The figure I believe for 2006 was 96% of Guardianship cases that are heard are granted.

Just did a Google there and our trusty friends at citizens information have the 70% figure:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/birth-family-relationships/married-couples/guardianship-status-of-fathers

Whereas Treoir give the fuller picture:
www.treoir.ie/pdfs/Oct05bull.pdf

In 2004 there where 1,237 applications, 337 withdrawals, 38 refusals and 862 granted. I don't see any break down of the 337 withdrawals. Some of these may have been advised to withdraw, some may have got Guardianship with the agreement of the Mother through the Statutory Instrument, some maybe withdrawn or struck out because of technicalities, length of time etc.

I actually applied myself in 2003 but I withdrew the application myself, because I went back to my sons Mother. I got it in 2004 unopposed and without the Mother being in Court. Therefore it would be incorrect to include my case as denied or refused in 2003!

In short, we don't know why the applications where withdrawn. We do know that in 2004 96% of applications that where heard got granted.

The Corinthian wrote: »

There are two issues involved, of which the first is the mother. Single mothers automatically call all the shots with regards to the upbringing of their children, so ceding any of this control can often be psychologically difficult for them. The law has given them a 'cake and eat it' situation with regards to parental rights, and you'll get a lot of rationalization where it comes to maintaining that monopoly. This isn't really a criticism, just that they are as prone to human nature as anyone else.

Completely agree, there is a lot of unnecessary fear over Guardianship by many single mothers.

The Corinthian wrote:

The second issue is the value of guardianship, and this is debatable. A father who is a guardian technically does have a number of legal rights, but most of these are unenforceable. The only useful ones are in the case of the mother taking the child outside of the state (to live, on holidays is much harder to block) and the right to custody in the event that the mother dies or is incapacitated. In both cases, you don't actually need guardianship to enforce these, but it is a lot, lot harder to do.

I would seek guardianship, but would not go legal if I can avoid it, if I were you as a good relationship with the mother is worth it's weight in gold and if not there, then guardianship will be the least of your worries. Point out that it is only fair (carries little weight in my experience) and the issue of where the child goes if she dies (much stronger argument).

Give her plenty of time to consider it and allay whatever fears she may have. But if she rejects it after a year, then pursue it legally if you intend to remain involved in the child's life.

Practically it usually is of no use. The only 2 occasions I used it was to get copies of my sons school reports and to rearrange speech therapy after his Mother ignoring appointments. It hasn't been an issue in a few years.

The Mother can agree to give Guardianship and as shown by the statistics, avoid wasting the Judges time in most cases by signing the Statutory Instrument here:

www.solo.ie/downloads/SI_5.pdf

The Corinthian wrote:

The mood of the courts has been changing over the last decade or so, to deal with the imbalance of rights towards fathers and it would be reasonable to assume that we will, moving forward, see more fathers successfully contesting guardianship, rather than less. I've been told, by family lawyers, that it is pretty much a certainty nowadays in Ireland if a father contests it in court - outside of extreme circumstances, the father being a professional felon or an addict.

Indeed, I'd say it will be only a matter of time before it's automatic and the courts can concentrate only on important cases to have it removed rather than usually rubber stamping the norm!