Advice needed for newbie setting up home drum recording studio

ZV Yoda

Hi folks,

I'm new to this forum and looking for some advice. I'm building a recording studio in our garage (it's fully dry lined/plastered etc - basically built as a small house). I think I’m OK in terms of building the physical room/acoustics etc (room within a room, floating floor etc). Hopefully, that will keep the volume to a realistic level – there are other houses within about 20ft of the garage. I’m more concerned with how I should kit out the studio.

Firstly, I'm not a recording engineer - I'm a drummer (so let's get the jokes out of the way first - and keep the jargon relatively simple in keeping with drummer's reputations ). My studio experience is limited to a few late recording night sessions in commercial studios over the years doing various demos.

Recently, one of my mates has also set up his own home studio (which we use at present). I have a vague practical knowledge of what goes on behind the desk, but not much. I am computer savvy though (my day job). He currently uses a Korg 3200 multi-track recorder/CD, but has recently bought a Mac & ProTools, so he’s moving to a control surface/interface.

When I have my set up completed, our plan is to be able to record in either studio (obviously, mostly drums in mine), but the results have to be portable/exportable to be mixed in his studio. I intuitively like the Mac/control surface option vs. a standalone multi-tracker (I just prefer that set up).

Our end objective is to be able to produce radio quality recordings – at worst as a serious hobby, at best as a commercial viable recording.

Assuming a budget of (say) €5k, what are my options? Ideally the budget will cover Mac & control surface, mics & assorted equipment. Is this unrealistic?

And before any body asks, I have a good kit/cymbals and tune the kit regularly, so I know how important that is. Also, yes, I can play to a click!:rolleyes:

Thanks

studiorat

Five Grand is plenty for a home rig. Control surface is basically a big mouse personally I wouldn't bother, I never touch mine. Get a track ball instead.

$5,000
Don't forget about 15% for cables etc.
Oh and if you build a drum riser make sure it's level, though I suppose you've heard that one already.

Probably better to spec. something first and then post it and see what people think of that.

Did you check the John Sayers website?

ZV Yoda

Thanks Studiorat... will do some research & post up some suggestions.

BTW, I sent you a PM

godfrey

give Paul Brewer a call at Audio Warehouse. you'll need some good mics to capture anything decent, but you dont need Neumanns or anything like it. Paul is a very experienced engineer as well as being a bit of an honest injun - rare in this biz. DONT go to some young tatooed young-fella in some music store in town!!

best of luck...

g

jtsuited

godfrey wrote: »

give Paul Brewer a call at Audio Warehouse. you'll need some good mics to capture anything decent, but you dont need Neumanns or anything like it. Paul is a very experienced engineer as well as being a bit of an honest injun - rare in this biz. DONT go to some young tatooed young-fella in some music store in town!!

best of luck...

g

seems like an odd first post in the music production forum considering what's being going on here recently. post reported.

godfrey

hi there,
how is it an 'odd first post'? maybe you'd fill me in on the relevance of this comment and 'whats been goin on here recently' please...
why does it need to be reported?

g

cornbb

jtsuited wrote: »

seems like an odd first post in the music production forum considering what's being going on here recently. post reported.

jtsuited, enough with the back-seat moderation and in-thread accusations.

jtsuited

cornbb wrote: »

jtsuited, enough with the back-seat moderation and in-thread accusations.

cornbb, i apologise for being annoyed that this forum has somehow descended into a place primarily used for marketing purposes.
i further apologise for raising the issue.

cornbb

jtsuited wrote: »

cornbb, i apologise for being annoyed that this forum has somehow descended into a place primarily used for marketing purposes.
i further apologise for raising the issue.

I was going to tell you to take it to Feedback if you wanted to take this further, I see you've beaten me to it.

If anyone else wants their say on this please post here and keep it off this forum.

godfrey

the OP asked for help and advice, which is exactly what I posted. I don't sell equipment or have ANY business interest with any suppliers. I recommended Audio Warehouse because I have had nothing but good experiences with them, which I believe is a damn good reason to do so.

I hope this satisfies the cynics but if it doesn't, too bad.

to the OP, I hope you found my post helpful.

regards ~

g

ZV Yoda

Hi folks,

Thanks for the advice so far (not sure how all the aggro started on the thread - certainly wasn't my intention).

Anyway, here's the equipment I'm thinking of getting:

The jury's still out on PC or Mac (I've read through the other threads on PC vs. Mac - in summary, Mac more stable OS/more stylish vs. PC better spec for equivalent money, less stable, but not an issue if I keep it off the interweb). Through work, I can get good deals on upgrade components (RAM, Motherboards, CPUs)

In terms of sound gear, I've read various reviews etc & the following seem to fit the bill (although I'd appreciate any input you may have)

http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_tbone_drumset_1_set.htm
http://www.thomann.de/ie/esi_near05_experience_aktive_studio_nahfeldmonitore.htm
http://www.thomann.de/ie/maudio_projectmix_iopro_tools_mp.htm
http://www.thomann.de/ie/akg_k271_studio_stereokopfhoerer.htm

One question - what's the difference between ProTool LE vs. Pro Tools M Powered?... I gather MP is sequencing software, so I'd still need LE. Is that correct? If so, can I just buy LE on it's own (this wasn't very clear from my research)

Have I left out any major items here?

godfrey

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Hi folks,
http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_tbone_drumset_1_set.htm
http://www.thomann.de/ie/esi_near05_experience_aktive_studio_nahfeldmonitore.htm
http://www.thomann.de/ie/maudio_projectmix_iopro_tools_mp.htm
http://www.thomann.de/ie/akg_k271_studio_stereokopfhoerer.htm

ok, here's where it gets tricky because everyone will have strong opinions about what's hot and what's not! Im well known to my friends and colleagues as an audio snob, but I'm not one bit ashamed of it...

Thomann mics - utter rubbish. I use Audix mics almost exclusively and if you can get them you'll not regret it. I suggest the following:
D1 - snare top & bottom
D2 - toms (and great for guitar cabs and loads more)
D4 - floor tom
SCX1 - hats & overheads (expensive, maybe some Audio Technicas instead)
D6 - kick drum
if they're out of your reach, maybe some Sennheiser or other respectable makes would be good for you.

mics are so important: if they sound crap nothing will rescue the sound. no, it CANT be fixed in the mix! not with P.Tools or any other gimickry...

those monitors have a 5" mass/mid driver. you'll get no bottom end (bass) from them leading you to compensate by adding too much bass in your tracks. I'm not too familiar with whats available at this price range so I recommend asking someone like Paul for better recommendations.

ProTools interface: I don't use it so I'm not the one to comment there

AKG cans - they're ok, but a major issue with them is the 'auto shutoff' mechanism which is designed to prevent feedback & colouration from unused cans plugged in around a studio. they're in a radio studio I regularly use and 9 times out of 10 guests say they don't work. reason: you have to place them on your head in a certain way for the microswitch to pass signal. one ear off or even slightly back on your head and they just switch off. not what you want when you're tracking drums!! I'd recommend a pair of Beyer DT150's. good isolation and decent bass response too (5hz - 30khz), unlike the standard choice of DT100's. Sennheiser HMD25's also make a fine racket and are smaller and lighter, loud and have good bass response.

plenty to consider there, hope it's of some help to you.

g (the audio snob)

ZV Yoda

Thanks Godfrey... good input... I expected negative commentary on the mics... I guessed it would make sense to go for better ones (given they are the basic input).

Having said that, those Audix mics you mention are expensive. There's a Thomann bundle but it's €2.8k, which is well out of range for what I need.

http://www.thomann.de/ie/audix_dp8_elite_drumkoffer.htm

Basically I'm a drummer looking to have my own studio so I can spend time experimenting with drum lines/sounds & recording them the way I want them... rather than have to travel to my mates studio every time I want to put drum lines down on over our music... however, since my kit cost around €4k (i.e. it's a good middle of the range kit) mics costing nearly €3k seem a bit disproportionate.

You made a good point about the headphones, I didn’t even know they had that feature. I think it would drive me mad.

Keep the comments flowing!

Thanks

ZV Yoda

How about this for a drum mic set up? (Beyers)
http://www.thomann.de/ie/beyerdynamic_opus_drum_set_l.htm

How would that stack up against these? (although I think I'd need to add a couple of SM57s for top & bottom snare)
http://www.thomann.de/ie/shure_pgdmk6xlr.htm

godfrey

a word of advice to everyone shopping with Thomann: shop around...
while they do indeed sell lots of cheap gear, a lot of it is just that, cheap, and some of it is very nasty indeed (connectors, cables, stands, snakes to mention just a few).

for regular brands, their prices aren't always anything like the cheapest. I have found many examples of this and frequently find Digital Village (www.dv247.com) to be much cheaper, as well as some sellers right here in Ireland, including the aforementioned Audio Warehouse, Future Sounds in Limerick, Sound Shop in Drogheda and I'm sure there are plenty more. by the way, I believe all those carry Audix mics!!

also, consider this: what do you do when you decide you bought the wrong piece of kit? what about repairs? what about replacement kit during repairs? forget returning to any online warehouse-type store, Thomann, Music Store etc. I think there's a thread elsewhere about the poor communication with these companies once they have your order... the Irish stores, like all over Europe, are under serious pressure to compete with online warehouses but in so many ways they simply offer better value in the long run.

must rest now, the snob isn't used to taking off the white gloves for extended periods of typing...

g

PaulBrewer

Hi, when you say radio quality, how do you interpret that exactly?

What sort of 'sound' are you thinking? Is it an 'indie' noise or something more Hi-Fi. The Hi-Fi option will be much more expensive.

With drums, perhaps more than most instruments, the room can be 50% of the sound, perhaps more.

Therefore with a 'bad' sounding room it's uphill all the way.

Rather than aiming for a 'cheap' multi mic setup which I think is all you'll get for that budget, I'd aim for , in order of importance (after your kit of course)

1. The Room, a 'good' one will give you a good noise to record - Half the job done straight away.

2. Every man since the dawn of time has got good results with Shure SM 57s or 58s or their variants. They're still the first choice for a lot of guys. Particularly of interest to you as they're cheap as chips. There are of course superior choices, but as a budget starting point you won't go wrong. You can even use em on the kick.

3. A good stereo pair as overheads, a lot of the time the hats will be all over the gaff and you won't 'need' a hat mic, however there are exceptions to that.

4. Get at least 1 pair of 'posher' pres - perhaps use them on the over heads as an awful lot of the overall kit sound comes down the overheads, as does the room sound.
I know the Kaiser Chiefs 'I predict a riot' drums were kick and 2 overheads - Similarly I know Larry from U2 often uses a pair and a kick mic.

Take the journey in steps - get good quality stuff now and you'll still use it in 10 years.

ZV Yoda

Hi, when you say radio quality, how do you interpret that exactly?

What sort of 'sound' are you thinking? Is it an 'indie' noise or something more Hi-Fi. The Hi-Fi option will be much more expensive.

I suppose it's a bit cheeky to say/expect "radio quality sound"... what I mean is that when people listen to our music, they don't think "that's a great song/they're a good band... but the sound on the recording is rubbish". Nor do I expect them to say "wow, great recording". .. after all, we're musicians/songwriters first & foremost... the technical aspect of recording/production is (from our perspective) a means to an end.

If we had a "sound" it would be loosely pop rock - in general terms, what we do has similarities with:

Texas (strong female vocalist/harmonies with guitar/bass/drums/some keyboards)
Massive Attack (Vocal style on some tracks)
U2/Simple Minds (more the guitar sound than anything else)
Greenday, The Police, Simple Minds (drum sound)

With drums, perhaps more than most instruments, the room can be 50% of the sound, perhaps more.

Therefore with a 'bad' sounding room it's uphill all the way.

Yeah, I've gathered as much - I'm a fan of the "live" drum sound - I don't like stuff that's heavily compressed or heavily gated. I take time to get my kit sounding how I like it, so I'd love to just recreate that sound on tape.

Rather than aiming for a 'cheap' multi mic setup which I think is all you'll get for that budget, I'd aim for , in order of importance (after your kit of course)

1. The Room, a 'good' one will give you a good noise to record - Half the job done straight away.

Good point - I plan not to rush this bit

2. Every man since the dawn of time has got good results with Shure SM 57s or 58s or their variants. They're still the first choice for a lot of guys. Particularly of interest to you as they're cheap as chips. There are of course superior choices, but as a budget starting point you won't go wrong. You can even use em on the kick.

I originally thought about SM57s - from what I read about them, they seem to be bread & butter drum mics for a lot of folks

3. A good stereo pair as overheads, a lot of the time the hats will be all over the gaff and you won't 'need' a hat mic, however there are exceptions to that.

I can tend to play the hats quite loud & they sometime overshadow the snare (only the snare is mic'd at present – not the hats)

4. Get at least 1 pair of 'posher' pres - perhaps use them on the over heads as an awful lot of the overall kit sound comes down the overheads, as does the room sound.

What's "'posher' pres "?

I know the Kaiser Chiefs 'I predict a riot' drums were kick and 2 overheads - Similarly I know Larry from U2 often uses a pair and a kick mic.

Actually, I like both their drum sounds, so that's interesting

Take the journey in steps - get good quality stuff now and you'll still use it in 10 years.

That was also my logic in going for the Mac/PC option - I can easily upgrade the hardware on these. That's also why I veered away from the "one box does all" mixer recorders.

PaulBrewer

ZV Yoda wrote: »

I suppose it's a bit cheeky to say/expect "radio quality sound"... what I mean is that when people listen to our music, they don't think "that's a great song/they're a good band... but the sound on the recording is rubbish". Nor do I expect them to say "wow, great recording". .. after all, we're musicians/songwriters first & foremost... the technical aspect of recording/production is (from our perspective) a means to an end.

If we had a "sound" it would be loosely pop rock - in general terms, what we do has similarities with:

Texas (strong female vocalist/harmonies with guitar/bass/drums/some keyboards)
Massive Attack (Vocal style on some tracks)
U2/Simple Minds (more the guitar sound than anything else)
Greenday, The Police, Simple Minds (drum sound)




Yeah, I've gathered as much - I'm a fan of the "live" drum sound - I don't like stuff that's heavily compressed or heavily gated. I take time to get my kit sounding how I like it, so I'd love to just recreate that sound on tape.



Good point - I plan not to rush this bit



I originally thought about SM57s - from what I read about them, they seem to be bread & butter drum mics for a lot of folks



I can tend to play the hats quite loud & they sometime overshadow the snare (only the snare is mic'd at present – not the hats)



What's "'posher' pres "?



Actually, I like both their drum sounds, so that's interesting



That was also my logic in going for the Mac/PC option - I can easily upgrade the hardware on these. That's also why I veered away from the "one box does all" mixer recorders.

'posher' as in a good quality pair of mic preamplifiers - especially with drums, with their high virtually instant transients, its very difficult to get a sound that actually represents what your drums actually sound like unless the mic/ mic pre/ soundcard combination can reproduce it.

We've all been in the 'snares not bright enough-add top - too much hi hat and cymbals - still sounds pants' scenario

99 percent of the time these days I'm lucky enough to spend 15 mins checking drums tunings - decide how big a part the room will play in the track, put up the mics and faders and hey presto , good drum sound.
Having said that the studio I use is full of Neve,Manley, Apogee etc, so I've a head start straight away..... but it really is that simple.

Also compressors are a big part of any pop/rock drums sound.

All the bands you mention

Greenday, The Police, Simple Minds (drum sound)

use heavily processed drums -

Do a google on Chris Lord Alge who mixed the last Greenday one, compressors on the compressors!

Similarly I remember reading an interview with Stewart Copeland at the time and he used to wait til the engineer went for a piss so he could jack up the comps and argue when the engineer returned!

Compressors can often work like EQ on drums (I try not to use much EQ overall at all) if you vary the attack/releases you can make them sound brighter or darker, longer or shorter, just with compression alone.

I'd only not use compression on something like a jazz kit.

Best of Luck!

PaulBrewer

Also buy a pair of 13s HiHats , generally much quieter than 14s and they'll save you a world of heartache!

ZV Yoda

... ah, so those drummers use a lot of compression? I'm glad I stated my ignorance up front!

You make a valid point on the 13" hats... mine are the standard 14" ones & they are quite dark Zildjians... I've never been mad about them & they need a very light touch, otherwise they are loud. Grand when playing live, but very metallic on recordings. I may look at changing them down the road.

I bet engineers get this a lot from drummers, but there's one U2 track that has the sound I'm after. It's called Silver & Gold (the studio version on the b side of "Where the streets have no name"... its also on their "Best of 1980-1990" bonus disc. Note - note the crap live one on Rattle & Hum). I just love the kick, snare & hats sound on that song. He doesn't play any toms on that track.

godfrey

ok, first of all, I'm not intending to piss anyone off or slag anyone off, and maybe I should have started a new thread rather than sticking it in here. if so, I'll do just that, but...

it cracks me up when I hear people talk about the great drum/guitar/vocal/anything else sound they heard and say how its so natural and uncompressed and unprocessed. getting those amazing sounds you sometimes hear is never that simple, especially with drums. its a combination of a heap of good stuff, like a good player with a good knowledge of their gear, a good room, good mics, pre's, desk, outboard gear (and/or plug-ins) monitors etc... and just as important, the engineering skills and production 'chops' of someone who has put their time in.

as I say, please everyone, dont take offence as none is meant, but great sounds take skill as well as good or great equipment. an experienced engineer with some shaky gear will still get something decent-sounding, whereas all the gear in the world won't help an inadequate knob-twiddler. I believe engineering skills are becoming rare with all this semi-pro PC-based recording and it would be great to see more help available to beginners. this forum is a good start don't ya think? there's also a lot less mystery than sometimes is alluded to, and it's not necessary to have the latest 'flavour of the month' combination of mic/pre being pushed by this and that semi-pro recording mag. I also think taking your time to listen carefully and experiment is sometimes overlooked.

whaddya think people?

cheers ~

g

ZV Yoda

it cracks me up when I hear people talk about the great drum/guitar/vocal/anything else sound they heard and say how its so natural and uncompressed and unprocessed. getting those amazing sounds you sometimes hear is never that simple.

Godfrey,
Not sure if you're referring to me, but as the OP, the reason I posted in the first place was precisely because I don't know how to get those sounds. I openly declared my ignorance/lack of techinal skills at the start... and happily did so again when I was corrected on what compression does/doesn't do. I agree that making things sound effortless/simple is often the most difficult thing to do (that goes for playing as well as recording/engineering).

as I say, please everyone, dont take offence as none is meant, but great sounds take skill as well as good or great equipment

None taken.. I'll happliy risk "cracking people up" on this forum (remember, I'm a drummer, so I get that a lot ) if it means I learn something... that's the beauty of this (or most other forums)

PaulBrewer

godfrey wrote: »

ok, first of all, I'm not intending to piss anyone off or slag anyone off, and maybe I should have started a new thread rather than sticking it in here. if so, I'll do just that, but...

it cracks me up when I hear people talk about the great drum/guitar/vocal/anything else sound they heard and say how its so natural and uncompressed and unprocessed. getting those amazing sounds you sometimes hear is never that simple, especially with drums. its a combination of a heap of good stuff, like a good player with a good knowledge of their gear, a good room, good mics, pre's, desk, outboard gear (and/or plug-ins) monitors etc... and just as important, the engineering skills and production 'chops' of someone who has put their time in.

as I say, please everyone, dont take offence as none is meant, but great sounds take skill as well as good or great equipment. an experienced engineer with some shaky gear will still get something decent-sounding, whereas all the gear in the world won't help an inadequate knob-twiddler. I believe engineering skills are becoming rare with all this semi-pro PC-based recording and it would be great to see more help available to beginners. this forum is a good start don't ya think? there's also a lot less mystery than sometimes is alluded to, and it's not necessary to have the latest 'flavour of the month' combination of mic/pre being pushed by this and that semi-pro recording mag. I also think taking your time to listen carefully and experiment is sometimes overlooked.

whaddya think people?

cheers ~

g

I couldn't have put it better myself, and Lord knows I've tried!

I think the point that ZV Yoda was trying to make about his preference for 'unprocessed' drums is they sound like they're unprocessed i.e Natural.

Little did he know (as he acknowledged) the amount of processes needed to sound unprocessed!

godfrey

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Godfrey,
Not sure if you're referring to me....

not at all, I was speaking generally, which is why I was thinking I may have posted it in the wrong place.

g

godfrey

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I couldn't have put it better myself, and Lord knows I've tried!

I think the point that ZV Yoda was trying to make about his preference for 'unprocessed' drums is they sound like they're unprocessed i.e Natural.

Little did he know (as he acknowledged) the amount of processes needed to sound unprocessed!

yes Paul, we're on the same page here for sure. it's like when Dolly Parton said something like 'you'd be surprised how expensive it is to look this cheap'!!
go Dolly...

except for deliberate effect, it takes a lot of toys 'n' tricks to sound natural...

it's refreshing though to hear someone be as humble as ZX Yoda. I'm too old & tired for those who ask your opinion and then tell you they don't agree with you.

now, where did I leave my hammer?

g

PaulBrewer

Or for those who don't agree with you no matter WHAT you say .......... Ahem.

ZV Yoda

It's all good.... (mind you, that's the first time I've ever been desribed as humble!)... my motto is, "if you never ask, you'll never know". The more questions you ask, the more you learn... I think I've gotten good, balanced advice so far, so I'm happy.

Now if anybody could just tell me where I can get software with a decent click track... mine just won't stay in time!... (drummers, eh?)

But back on topic, I think I'll go for SM57s for the snare... I know Paul mentioned that they could be used for the kick too, but I'd prefer to opt for something specifically designed for the kick - does such a mic exist in the €200-250 price range?

Also, I've been reading some of the other posts on Logic... if I opt for a new Mac, I can get Logic bundled for a decent price. As I understand it:

- Logic is "simpler to use but almost as effective as ProTools" (paraphrasing from the other thread)
- There are more hardware options with Logic because Pro Tools seems to be compatible only with the (expensive!) M-Box/Digidesign hardware...

... so (and I'm not neccessarily looking for a Logic vs. pro Tools debate - that's happened elsewhere) is there anything from preventing me from using Logic to record drums in my own studio & then exporting the recordings to bring to another studio for mixing in (with Pro Tools). They're all wav files, so I assume they're interchangeable?

ogy

I don't think theres any major difference in learning any DAW whether Protools, Cubase or Logic. They all have some different ways of doing things and usually whichever you start with is the one that will always make the most sense for you.

A good argument for picking anything other than Protools is that, as discussed in another thread, unless you buy the very expensive Protools HD there is no plug-in delay compensation. Plug-in delay compensation is when the DAW automatically accounts for the time it takes one audio track to go through any 3rd party effect such as an EQ or a compressor and shifts all the other tracks relative to it. So whatever plug-ins you put on whatever tracks the DAW automatically keeps it all lined up as it originally was. Protools LE doesn't do this automatically whereas Cubase, Ableton and as far as i know Logic do. The delays are in the order of milliseconds but theyre very important.

I use Cubase because its what i've the most experience with, but from what I've heard the new Logic is amazing value for money and can definitely hold its own with the other platforms.

For a kick mic check out the AKG D112, thats around the price your talking, standard kick mic for live and studio as far as i know.

SM57s definitely a good choice for the snare, great value and pretty versatile too.

I've used rode nt5s for overheads, theyre not too pricey and worked out pretty well (300 quid for a matched pair).

For pro sound quality the important things are mics/preamps and a/d conversion.

You'll probably want at least 8 inputs to record a full kit. I've got a presonus firepod, it does the job, its cheap, but its far from pro quality and the preamps can be a bit noisy. Probably the cheapest pro quality a/d is something like the rme fireface 800. Its only got four pre-amps though so you'd need to buy an rme quadmic aswell probably.

If I was gonna spend five grand on a studio for recording drums I'd go something like this
A/D and Preamps: RME Fireface 1200
Preamps: RME Quadmic 400
Kick Mic: AKG D112 170
Snare: 2 x SM57 200
Toms: 2/3 x Sennheiser604 200-300
Overheads: Matched Rode NT5s 300
Monitors: 2 Adam A7s 800
Headphones: Sennheiser HD25 170
Logic 8 or Cubase 4: 400-500

That leaves about a grand to buy a decent PC

And yeh you can transfer wavs from one DAW to another quite easily. The handiest way to do it is to consolidate the track into one long wav that starts at the very start. Then you just have to know the bpm and you can import it easily into another DAW

ZV Yoda

Thanks Ogy - that's detailed response - you've pretty much answered all my question there in go.

Probably the cheapest pro quality a/d is something like the rme fireface 800. Its only got four pre-amps though so you'd need to buy an rme quadmic aswell probably.

Two questions on the this type of option:
1. If I have only 4 mics inputs on the Fireface 800, is there a separate (line?) input to connect the quadmic to the Fireface 800?... or do I have to use one of the Fireface's mic inputs as an input for the quadmic i.e. 1 input for the quadmic, leaving only 3 drum inputs direct into the Fireface 800... plus 4 drum inputs into the quadmic (meaning only 7 mic inputs in total?)
2. Even if the setup allows for 8 mic inputs, will that still allow mixing of all 8 track independently in a different studio, or will the quad inputs have to pre "pre-mixed” at set level on one track?

Thanks

studiorat

I'm not really big on what U2 song is what, but if they are the sessions I'm thinking of they used SM-58's on the overheads.

A lot of those thomann own brand mics are of various quality see my previous post here. For a simple drum set up I'd go for a Beyer M88 for kik, or an Audix D6, or Sennheiser 421. I don't go with the D-112 thing, would be nice if you could pick up a Peavy PVM 520 they and the M-88 are secret kik drum weapons.

Snare, SM-57 or the Audix version of the same.
Toms I use SE2200's, or Sennheiser 421's or both top and bottom. SM-57's work well here too.

AKG 451 for the hi-hat, only man for the job. Whether it's all over the place depends on the drummer and the room.

Best Value around for overheads has to be the Octava MK012's. Don't forget to use a good few "room mics" too, something at snare height pointing at the gap beyween the kik and snare. Then you can trigger gates and compressors etc. from the close mics. Rodes would be a second or third choice for me.

Pre-amp-wise I actually prefer a pre-amp with a bit of slew, something to blur the hard attack of the snare and cymbals. I find some of the posher solid state stuff like the 9098 for instance a little too hard.

You could go for a sound card with Adat inputs and something like a Focusrite or Audient 8 channel pre amp and convertor, though I don't think 8 is enough for a kit.

ogy

no probs zv yoda - yeh theres 10 line inputs, 1-6 are standard line inputs, 7-8 can be line inputs or 2 of the mic preamp inputs, and 9-10 are permanently set as the other two mic preamps. so the quadmic could be connected to 1-4 and you'd have 8 mic preamps and 2 line ins. you can also add another 16 inputs via the 2 adat connections. All these inputs will be seperate in your DAW so they can be mixed independently. the level controls on the pre-amp are there to ensure your getting a healthy level that doesn't clip on each input. no pre-mixing is needed, and is actually something you shouldn't do, you should aim to get a healthy level that doesn't clip from everything regardless of how loud it will be in the final mix.

definitely investigate all of studiorats mic suggestions as he'd have way more experience than me, but i think some of them are a bit more pricey, i was trying to stick to the budget as much as possible. I guess the main call is between 57s on your toms, or something more purpose built, thats why I suggested the 604s as theyre made for toms, but in all honesty theyre the only tom mics i've ever used so i have no frame of reference.

obviously in an ideal world you'd have 2 OHs, top and bottom of snare, top and bottom of each tom, inside and outside kick, hats, plus at least one room mic, but i think you can get very decent drum sounds with 8 inputs or even less. The list of stuff I suggested was based on the idea that the interface would never need changing, it would be a long time before you'd think about changing the monitors and headphones, so you have a good basis. the mics would start you off and if you felt the need you could upgrade with better mics and more channels in time.

with 8 channels i'd prioritise top and bottom snare, kick, one on each tom, overheads, and 1 room mic if your only using 2 toms. you'll probably be happy enough with the hats in the overheads for the time being.

i'd definitely scrap the nt5s idea, for an extra 150 quid a pair of those oktavas look like the business for overheads.

So basically, balancing the cash and deciding where to get the lovely mic and where to get the one thatll do the job is the hard bit:)

ZV Yoda

Thanks for that - yeah, balancing the budget is the real trick - one school of thought says spend the money on good mics, the other veers towards good interfaces... I suppose when you're doing it as a hobby & working to a budget you need the advice to make an informed decision.

I'll take all the advice on board when I start shopping around in a couple of weeks.

Thanks everybody!

studiorat

PS. replace any of above w/sm-57



I'd try to go towards microphones that were known to be good on other things too. Like the 57 on guitar, MK-12's for Acoustic. Kick, bass gtr. and Vocal can usually work well on the same type of microphone too, well the RE-20 but thats stoopid money..

Don't underestimate how good a Kit can sound with 3 or 4 good mic's either.
And a room mic or two with a load of compression!! I'll always try use a comedy mic too, in a stupid place or a broken mic even! Sometimes sounds like that just add some color.

Mono ribbon overhead any one?

PaulBrewer

3rd school of thought -
Go for good interface AND good mics! Just that the 'good mics' for this job are the cheap ones!

The Rat doesn't speak with a forked tongue!!

ogy

i reckon getting good interfacing going first is a good idea. if you really get into recording mics are something that you'll always use and will always buy more of. the rme shouldn't need replacing, maybe upgrading if neccesary with more channels. and yeh, you can't beat the ould 57s (well, you can, and there still deadly afterwards:)).

curse you studiorat, i really want those oktavas now, another thing for the list!:)

Carrigsound

The problem with using 2 or more mics on the same sound source is you run in to phase problems (I'm not going to try explain that one to ya), keep it simple, a couple of overheads and one in the kik.

Anyway, have a look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5Fjuz7jXzs
If the link doesn't work do a search on youtube for "recorderman drum mic technique" .

Good luck

Liam

PaulBrewer

3 to 1 rule Carrigsound!

But let's leave that can of Phasing Worms for another day.....

ZV Yoda

Hi folks,

Any thoughts on whether the M-AUDIO DELTA 1010 is a good interface to use?... looks like it will do the trick for me in terms of 8 x inputs to record drums.

http://www.thomann.de/ie/m-audio_delta_1010.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan00/articles/midiman1010.htm
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010-main.html

I've seen one 2nd hand for €275 & was wondering if it would be a good buy? Would appreciate any comments.

Thanks

PaulBrewer

The Delta 1010 is a line level unit only as far as I remember i.e. one can't connect mics directly to it.
So, once you have mic pre-amplifiers it could be a solution for you.

studiorat

The 10/10 is a good sounding box. It doesn't have pre amps so it's mostly useful for working with a mixing console. It's got word clock and all the ins and outs you'd expect from a professional box.

ZV Yoda

Ok, so for my next dumb question... do all mixers have pre-amps built in?... so they could be both the pre-amp & control surface for the DAW?

ogy

all mixers do have pre-amps built in, depending on the brand the quality varies. theyd probably do the job for you, but eventually you'll probably want to buy at least a pair of decent standalone preamps

all mixers won't act as control surfaces, you can use them to mix the outputs from your soundcard and then send them back in to the interface as a 2 track mix. this is mixing "out of the box" or analog summing. Generally people say its better but theres probably only a noticeable difference in fairly high end desks. they won't act as control surfaces i.e. you can't control the faders etc in cubase or whatever from the desk, only a few specialized desks do this, like the mackie onyx i think.

without a huge budget i reckon your better buying really good a/d like the fireface 800, then get some extra preamps, then mix "in the box". you can buy a midi controller if you like mixing with faders better than with a mouse. I think professional quality in the box mixing is better than amateur quality "out of the box" mixing.

ZV Yoda

Thanks Ogy…

Sorry to all for dragging this thread out , but I’m getting the gear in the next few weeks & I’m getting good advice here, so bear with me!

Having taken all the inputs to date, here’s where I’m at:

2Ghz iMac inc 2Gb RAM €1300
(I already have an external HD for back up too – I’ll keep that away from the studio)

M-Audio Projectmix I/O (inc Protools). €1300
http://www.thomann.de/ie/maudio_projectmix_iopro_tools_mp.htm
Although cheaper/better options around, I’m tied in to Protools because that’s what the other lads are using in their studios. We’re all learning as we go along, so this seems to make sense. I like the fact that the Projectmix is all in one box, so no need for pre amps, installing soundcards etc.

Mics – great discussion on this, so here’s what I’m thinking (at c.€1000, it’s more than I originally wanted to spend, but seems to make sense not to be too cheap here):

5 x SM 57s (2 x snare, 2 x rack toms, 1 x floor tom) €500
http://www.thomann.de/ie/shure_sm57lc_bundle.htm

1 x AKG D112 (bass drum) €166
http://www.thomann.de/ie/akg_d112_set.htm

OKTAVA MK 012-01 MSP2 MATCHED PAIR overheads €300
http://www.thomann.de/ie/oktava_mk_01201_mkiimatched_pair.htm

M-AUDIO BX8A monitors €400
http://www.thomann.de/ie/maudio_bx8a.htm
I know these aren’t great, but for drum mixing should be Ok & I can upgrade later if needs be. I want to keep to around €400 a pair, so any other options in this price range, let me know!

Headphones Sennheiser Hd25 €170
http://www.thomann.de/ie/sennheiser_hd25_ii.htm

So, any last comments on the above?... I think I've covered all bases, so appreciate your advice!

That gets me to about €4300 leaving about €700 out of my budget for additional cables/sink fund etc.

BTW, I’ve linked to Thomann just for ease – I’ll shop around once I’ve settled on the specifics (and no doubt some of the folks on here may have some suggestions on where to buy;)).

studiorat

Looks like a good plan to me.
Headphones, H/Phone amp, and mic stands as well as those cables....
I wonder are those sennheiser clip on drum mic's the same price as a 57 and a stand? I'm just wondering about having 5 of the same type of mic if you start to use them for different applications.

ZV Yoda

The clip on mics are about €10-15 more than the SM57s (excuding the stands) so the Sennhesiers would work out cheaper overall. You think they're a better option?... say 3 x Sennheisers for the toms with 2 SM57s for the snare instead?

alan.com

Those sennheisers are good, neater set up aswell. I'd go for them.

Also you should check out the Shure PGDMK6 drum mic package.
You'd have a PG52 kik mic,
3 PG56 for snare/toms,
and 2 PG81 OH condensers.
Incl. clamps and carry case.
It's like 430 on thomann I think.

They're good mics.
It gives you a much neater set-up aswell which is great for live.
I use this for recording drums but I use a beta 57 on snare and those 3 other mics on toms.