double reg? fair or not?

ditpoker

Example:
You play the €50+€5 game in the SE on a thursday. So you have paid €5 in registration. You win it and instead of getting €865 for first you get €700 + a €165 ticket to their Irish Open Sat. This ticket is €150 + €15 reg. so you've no paid €20 in reg. Say the SE awards top 4 places in their thursday game a ticket to the satalite, thats 4 x €15 reg fees or €60 they are taking out the prize pool to give back to themselves. That is one full buy in they are taking for themselves. If they want to encourage people to play this satalite thats fine, but give out €150 tickets, not €165 tickets.

How often do you get to the bubble and people say "wanna give money back to 7th" and everyone agrees and bubble boy now gets his money back, in the above example there's one less buy in, one less "money back" cos the organisers have dumped it into a reg fee that you cant get back.

Say they get 100 players, they take in €5500, €500 goes to reg fees for the thursday game. Then if they give final table tickets, and pay themselves reg fees from the prize pool.. say 9 x 165 = 1485 (instead of 9 x 150 = 1350) its a) a large chunk of the prize pool they are saying you HAVE to use in their game in their casino, and b) an extra €135 in rake (the rake equivelant of 27 players in a €50+€5 game) that they are taking from the €5000 prizepool. its two and half buy-ins...

in isolation €15 is not that big an issue, but over time, and for bigger buy ins these double reg fees add up. if you want me to play your satalite give me a reg free ticket as part of the prize pool... if you want me play the satalite and pay reg again, give me the cash that i have won fairly and let me decide to play the satalite and THEN i'll pay the reg fee...

this is not a rant against the SE, i quite like the SE, its an observation regarding alot of tourney organisers in general, just using the SE as an example.

BigCityBanker

is this a joke?

YULETIRED

Have one of these things for sale.. Mods please move this if it's in the wrong forum.


http://www.coolmath4kids.com/calculators/abacus/

ditpoker

BigCityBanker wrote: »

is this a joke?

is this reasonable?

5starpool

What is the difference between paying 700+165 for 150+15 tourney or 715+150 where the 150 can only be used in the 150 tourney that you have to pay 15 extra for anyways?

BigCityBanker

TEST

(just checking if this thread is still open)

ditpoker

5starpool wrote: »

What is the difference between paying 700+165 for 150+15 tourney or 715+150 where the 150 can only be used in the 150 tourney that you have to pay 15 extra for anyways?

my point is that first and foremost if 1st place is €865, i should be given that money and i should be able to do with it what i want.
if the organiser takes cash from the prizepool to give a ticket to another event that they shouldnt charge reg fee from that. if they want to get players into their tournament by way of a ticket, to swell numbers, so they can advertise and say "already 40 players registered" that you should not have to pay reg fee twice.
if my prize is 865, or 715 + a non cash option to play a 150 event, then (while i still have some issues with this) fine. but by saying you get 700 + a 150+15 ticket you are being forced to give the organiser money, you are not given the option of not spending money there.

its like if you won €10,000 playing the lottery, but you had to spend €500 on lotto tickets next week.

And noel, grow up, you won €10,000 last year at the irish open, would you have been so brash if they said, here's your cheque for €9,000 and we will release the next €1,000 to your PPP account as you rake €1,000 on our poker skin. if you'd have been happy with that more fool you.

careca

The problem here is your title implies that you are not happy paying reg twice, whereas its obviously not the case (two separate tournies) but you now say thats not the issue.

You should be aware of the prizes before you play and if you don't like it, don't play.

Not trying to be blunt, but thats the crux of it.

BigCityBanker

I initially though you were trolling, but its aparent now that you are not.

Double reg fee is not being paid by anybody, the title of your thread is wrong and misleading and I think you should change it.

Each tournament runs as a stand alone entity and the entry/reg fees for any specific tourney is mutually exclusive from all others (there may be some limited exceptions to this).

if you choose to play in the super satellite at the Irish Open you will pay 300 entry + 30reg. This reg fee is for the costs associated with running the super satellite. Now if you win the super sat you get a ticket for the Irish Open which consists of 4200 entry + 300 reg. There is no anomoly of double reg fees being applied. The same logic applies tothe SE when they advertise that 1st place will get XXX cash + ticket.

The bit you claim that tourney organisers are giving back to themselves is the reg for the next tournament, this is singular, not plural. Definitely not double.

As for telling me to grow up? Do you realise how stupid this thread is? I dont think you do cos if you did I doubt you would have started it.

YULETIRED

Please note point C.

Pick a response from the below

A) Why play a tourny when you do not know what way the prize is divved outt
Why play a tourny when you DO know what the prize pool is BUT are not happy with it
C) I'll buy your 165 ticket from you for 150....Sale?

Bandara

BigCityBanker wrote: »

TEST

(just checking if this thread is still open)

LOL

post of the day.

Killme00

So you want your cake twice but only want to pay for it once, even though the second slice is three time bigger than the first. Thats just thievery.

phantom_lord

so really your problem is with them giving tickets as part of the prize pool?

BigCityBanker

ditpoker

you travel for a weekend to birmingham for example, you enter a £100+10 tournament there, from the prizepool you are told you can win a non cash option of a ticket to their monthly £500+50 game. you finish 3rd and get a no cash option of £550 ticket plus £300 cash. now you travel home... now the club in birmingham has taken £50 out of your pocket and into their profit.

I know they are different events, so why have a ticket for one as part of the prizepool of the other. I assume when i see games advertised here as "100% payout" that it means i get 100% cash. there is a thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055221521 where the game is advertised as 100% payout, and then there are tickets to the SAME game a week later. In the se last week there is no mention of tickets as part of the prizepool (that i was aware of). I know regulars know about the ticket as part of the rpizepool, but im no regular, and its not made clear, and no one says it when you register. If i win why do i have to take a ticket, why do i HAVE to pay reg. If i win in a standard SE game and then choose not to play in the SE again (say i got treated badly) why do i now have a ticket that i HAVE to play, part of which includes giving €€ to the company i no longer wish to give my custom to. if they give me a non-reg ticket i can still choose not to play and it is fellow players that benefit from dead money in the prizepool, not the casino or tourney organiser.

To pre-empt the reply of "well you shouldnt play if you dont know the prize pool", re-read above... i assume a normal €50 or €100 freezeout advertised as 100% prizepool payout is cash only. this is, in my opinion, a perfectly reasonable assumption.

Also, fair point regarding topic title, not sure how to edit it.
Also x 2, apologies noel, i too thoguht you were trolling. Though i don't believe this is a "stupid" thread. i have been meaning to post this thread since the quote below. I don't feel it is stupid. I used the SE example as i played the €50 for the first time in 5 months last week and am by no means a regular and would have limited interest playing the IO sat. Your example of the IO sat online is fine, as I know what im playing and what its for. the first reg fee is for organising first event which is for a full ticekt. thats fine, thats a satalite, the €50 game in the se is not a sat or a feeder (well it is a feeder, but not advertsied as one) and it is the non regular, like myself, that suffers.

from the above quoted thread... post #39

ditpoker wrote:

edit: forgot my main issue...
the prize structure... 5 tickets to this game!?!?!? WHAT!!??!?! thats 600 out of the prize pool, and its actually 90 euro (6x 15) in double reg. why should pokerevents take 90 euro in extra reg from the prize pool... if you wanna put tickets to this game fair enough, but its 100 entry! not 100+15, that 15 is part of the players money and the organisers have no right to effectively DEMAND/INSIST that 90 of it goes back to them the following week. 60 players, 600 taken out of prize pool, effectively 10% gone from prize pool. being honest.. THIS IS NOT ON! "10. 100% prize pool payout" is in fact a lie. had i been on that final table i'd have made a scene. not sure if this is standard practice but its something i dont like. just my feedback.

i still think its a reasonable concern.

ditpoker

phantom_lord wrote: »

so really your problem is with them giving tickets as part of the prize pool?

.

which includes a reg... see above post, more than happy to fix topic title.
if clubs in dublin want to add tickets, fair enough, just don't charge me for it.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

5starpool

Most Casinos will not force you to take the credit for the tournie if there is a reason why you cannot use it (such as visiting a place or being barred immediately after you get it for some bizarre reason).Worst case scenario, someone will usually buy the credit off you.

Taxipete29

If you play a Sat game you automatically know where the prize pool is being divided, as in example BCB gave Sat 300+30 Prizes 4200+300 ticket. 1 prize for every 4500 collected. Thats clear and obvious and totally acceptable.
Where I agree with dit is I dont think organisers should be trying to fill numbers in upcoming tourneys by taking money out of a prize pool and forcing people to take a ticket for a game they may not wish to play. I know the idea if you dont like it dont play and I wont. My point is this is players money and organisers are effectively generating income for themselves by doing this.

BigCityBanker

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hey, that looks like the tds at last years IO calculating how much money there was to be chopped four handed eh Noel?

I dont know Lloyd, i wasnt there, not sure what it has to do with the current thread either but hey, you do your thing and I will do mine.

smurph

5starpool wrote: »

Most Casinos will not force you to take the credit for the tournie if there is a reason why you cannot use it (such as visiting a place or being barred immediately after you get it for some bizarre reason).Worst case scenario, someone will usually buy the credit off you.

But the thing there Dom is that if you have a ticket for their €150 game ie €125 + 25 and want to sell the ticket because you cannot go, you will not get the full face value.... ie somone will offer you say €120 for the Ticket

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

RoundTower

if you qualify for another tournament of course you should pay the reg for that one too.

Sounds like your problem is really with tournaments where you think there is a 100% cash payout and in fact part of the prizepool is given in tickets to other tournaments. Reputable clubs don't usually do this, if they do you should name and shame them.

Blip

RoundTower wrote: »

if you qualify for another tournament of course you should pay the reg for that one too.

Sounds like your problem is really with tournaments where you think there is a 100% cash payout and in fact part of the prizepool is given in tickets to other tournaments. Reputable clubs don't usually do this, if they do you should name and shame them.

This goes on all the time, reputable Clubs do do this, the difference is they advertise that a ticket is part of the prize pool, but this is not the issue at hand.

I think Smurf explains what DIT is trying to say.

5starpool

smurph wrote: »

But the thing there Dom is that if you have a ticket for their €150 game ie €125 + 25 and want to sell the ticket because you cannot go, you will not get the full face value.... ie somone will offer you say €120 for the Ticket

I cannot imagine any of the clubs in town telling a tourist that it is tough luck if they cannot play a game they got a ticket for as part of a prize. I would be surprised if the club did not give them full value for the credit instead. Alternatively a local, although not regular would probably get the same if they asked in the right manner as well I'd imagine, especially if they took the 'I didn't know about it when I paid in' line.

RoundTower

Blip wrote: »

This goes on all the time, reputable Clubs do do this, the difference is they advertise that a ticket is part of the prize pool, but this is not the issue at hand.

I think Smurf explains what DIT is trying to say.

yeah of course sometimes reputable clubs do pay part of the prizepool in tickets, I just meant they don't pass them off as cash-only tourneys.

YULETIRED

RoundTower wrote: »

yeah of course sometimes reputable clubs do pay part of the prizepool in tickets, I just meant they don't pass them off as cash-only tourneys.

Well there is a notice on the wall that the prize poola are being mini hijacked by the few irish Open tournys sats. It's hardly cloak and dagger stuff.....

I do hope people realise that in tonights sattelitte 100% of the prize money will in fact go towards a ticket to the Irish Open....I do hope everyone realises this, however I wouldn't bank on it......

BCB if you have any of those PPP giant card protectors with you , will you smash one for me please..

thanks!

DEEP THROAT

5starpool wrote: »

Most Casinos will not force you to take the credit for the tournie if there is a reason why you cannot use it (such as visiting a place or being barred immediately after you get it for some bizarre reason).Worst case scenario, someone will usually buy the credit off you.

In my experience if you get a ticket as part of a prize the best you can hope for is that the organizer will sell it on for you.

The best you could hope for after this is about 80% of the face value ( and that would be considered lucky ).

5starpool

DEEP THROAT wrote: »

In my experience if you get a ticket as part of a prize the best you can hope for is that the organizer will sell it on for you.

The best you could hope for after this is about 80% of the face value ( and that would be considered lucky ).

It all really depends on the circumstances. There are circumstances where I would expect to get full value if I couldn't use it, and ones where I would only get 80% or so.

RoundTower

DEEP THROAT wrote: »

In my experience if you get a ticket as part of a prize the best you can hope for is that the organizer will sell it on for you.

The best you could hope for after this is about 80% of the face value ( and that would be considered lucky ).

This is just wrong. If you get less than 80% for your ticket you haven't made enough of an effort. I've seen lots of tickets change hands at 90% or more. WSOP lammers consistently go at 100% (maybe 95% towards the very end of the Series). I've even seen tickets for a sold out EPT going at 125% to 150%.

yeah-buddy

ditpoker wrote: »

Example:
You play the €50+€5 game in the SE on a thursday. So you have paid €5 in registration. You win it and instead of getting €865 for first you get €700 + a €165 ticket to their Irish Open Sat. This ticket is €150 + €15 reg. so you've no paid €20 in reg. Say the SE awards top 4 places in their thursday game a ticket to the satalite, thats 4 x €15 reg fees or €60 they are taking out the prize pool to give back to themselves. That is one full buy in they are taking for themselves. If they want to encourage people to play this satalite thats fine, but give out €150 tickets, not €165 tickets.

How often do you get to the bubble and people say "wanna give money back to 7th" and everyone agrees and bubble boy now gets his money back, in the above example there's one less buy in, one less "money back" cos the organisers have dumped it into a reg fee that you cant get back.

Say they get 100 players, they take in €5500, €500 goes to reg fees for the thursday game. Then if they give final table tickets, and pay themselves reg fees from the prize pool.. say 9 x 165 = 1485 (instead of 9 x 150 = 1350) its a) a large chunk of the prize pool they are saying you HAVE to use in their game in their casino, and b) an extra €135 in rake (the rake equivelant of 27 players in a €50+€5 game) that they are taking from the €5000 prizepool. its two and half buy-ins...

in isolation €15 is not that big an issue, but over time, and for bigger buy ins these double reg fees add up. if you want me to play your satalite give me a reg free ticket as part of the prize pool... if you want me play the satalite and pay reg again, give me the cash that i have won fairly and let me decide to play the satalite and THEN i'll pay the reg fee...

this is not a rant against the SE, i quite like the SE, its an observation regarding alot of tourney organisers in general, just using the SE as an example.

i think you have to much time on your hands

ditpoker

yeah-buddy wrote: »

i think you have to much time on your hands

says the man with a new account posting that inspiring reply at midnight!

luckylucky

I actually always thought it wasn't right that you had to pay more than one reg fee. I'm not attacking Irish open specifically here btw, I'm just going on what I've seen online. I'm surprised the point has never been raised before tbh.

I'll give a simplistic example
Just say you have a big online tourney. Say entrance fee is 520 + 30 reg fee.

Say there are many satelites running for this with $50 entrance fee + $5 reg where 1 in every 11 qualify.

For each guy that qualifies via a satelite the site earns the regular $30 entrance fee i.e. 11 x 50 = 550 - 520 (actual entrance fee) + all the 11 guys satelite entrance fees of 11 x 5 =55. meaning for each satelite qualifier the site get $85 in registration fees.

If someone buys directly in they receive $30.

Personally I don't think this is right.