Muntjac S.I last week

CJhaughey

I am not sure if anyone else saw this in the Examiner last week, but there was an S.I. for the hunting of Muntjac deer printed.
I was not aware that we had Muntjac in the State, but the S.I. was to allow hunting of wild Muntjac by anyone in possession of a current deer license.
Can anyone throw some light on this?

Mellor

It was published last tuesday,

S.I. No. 27 of 2008.
WILDLIFE (WILD MAMMALS) (OPEN SEASONS)
(AMENDMENT) ORDER 2008.
The effect of this Order is to include a hunting season for
muntjac deer.
Copies of the Regulations are on sale at the Government
Publications Sale Office, Sun Alliance House, Molesworth

I heard they are in the country, there were pics put up here a while ago by NoNameRanger I think. He should have more info.

Mellor

The season for them runs until the end of march, and the SI is valid until the end of this march year only

John Griffin

Mellor wrote: »

It was published last tuesday,



I heard they are in the country, there were pics put up here a while ago by NoNameRanger I think. He should have more info.

It was me, TheNamedRanger:D;)

Link to thread below.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055225613

CJhaughey

Is the S.I. an attempt to remove them entirely or just a way of allowing hunters to shoot them legally?

Mellor

http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation/Heritage/NatureConservation/FileDownLoad,16740,en.pdf


I've no idea, it just lists the date it refers to.

CJhaughey

I suppose it is only curiosity on my part, I don't think they are down in my part of the country anyway.
I would be curious to try one for taste but I don't imagine the meat yield is very good.

fathersymes

Is it just Wicklow they are? any information on numbers and when introduced?

John Griffin

fathersymes wrote: »

Is it just Wicklow they are? any information on numbers and when introduced?

They have only being recorded in Wicklow so far, if anybody has any other information please let me know. No idea how many were released or when as yet, again if anybody knows.....
There has being many sightings and 1 animal shot that i know of. Again if you know any different .......

CJhaughey wrote: »

Is the S.I. an attempt to remove them entirely or just a way of allowing hunters to shoot them legally?

This SI is just for this year and is a temp measure. More legislation to follow. It would be desirable to remove them altogether, any that are shot should be reported straight away. NPWS just wants to know where they are and get some idea of how many we are dealing with. The animal won't be taken from you, you still get to eat it or stuff it.:)

fathersymes

Yes it's desirable to eradicate them, in that they are an alien species but more stalking variety!

I was just wondering why our deer season varies so much to the UK where you may stalk year round.

NoNameRanger

Politics!:rolleyes:
Whose interest is it in that we have the seasons we have and compare to the british season. Look at the pros and cons.
Discuss!!:D;)

tiny-nioclas

as far as i know with muntjac deer they dont have a closed season in england as they breed all year around, not like our deer who do it in one specific time in the year?

sidneyreilly

Hi NoName, any idea as to roughly what part of Wicklow?

ivanthehunter

I thought it was illegal to introduce a non-native species into Ireland, with that in mind i fail to understand the S.I. in relation to muntjac. If these deer are not wanted in this country then why are the afforded any breeding time.. Seems to be a contradiction. Such a new threat to our Eco-system should be sorted out with a 'all hands on deck' approach if the government was serious about the problem..
Personally i think its going to be great for sport shooting but will soon become a real problem.

The Muntjac Deer problem exists in the UK at present and is some-way controlled by their open season. What seems to escape the thought process here is the fact that Ireland has a much lower hunter population density than the UK, i think that there is 20 people in england(not UK) for every one person in the Rep Ireland.. This species will soon run a muck if all firepower is not brought to bear down on it.. If control on this future problem species is to be considered then an 'all rifle' approach is seriously required. By this i mean all rifles from .22 up or even .17's.

ivanthehunter

double posted sorry

ivanthehunter

I thought it was illegal to introduce a non-native species into Ireland, with that in mind i fail to understand the S.I. in relation to muntjac. If these deer are not wanted in this country then why are the afforded any breeding time.. Seems to be a contradiction. Such a new threat to our Eco-system should be sorted out with a 'all hands on deck' approach if the government was serious about the problem..
Personally i think its going to be great for sport shooting but will soon become a real problem.

The Muntjac Deer problem exists in the UK at present and is some-way controlled by their open season. What seems to escape the thought process here is the fact that Ireland has a much lower hunter population density than the UK, i think that there is 20 people in england(not UK) for every one person in the Rep Ireland.. This species will soon run a muck if all firepower is not brought to bear down on it.. If control on this future problem species is to be considered then an 'all rifle' approach is seriously required. By this i mean all rifles from .22 up or even .17's.

John Griffin

Sidney; They appear to be along the Avonmore river valley from Annamoe to Avoca. Thats whwere all the reports have been coming from so far.

Ivan: They where afforded protection accidentally simply because of the wording of the wildlife act. It protects All Deer Species. This S.I. is an attempt to fix this in the short term and allow them to be shot.
They breed all year round so it is not possible to have a closed season for breeding purposes. As for methods of control, we will just have to wait and see what the powers that be will allow.

ivanthehunter

Griff
I'll have to take a walk up there over the next few days or so.. I'll see if cant sell you a photo of a live one (Muntjac) for your collection which is excellent albeit incomplete . Dont worry i wont tell anybody that i gave it to you;)
Shooting them with 35mm asa 400 will be just as much as a challenge.:p

Mellor

Any luck with a photo over the weekend Ivan.
I know its not easy with film, but try get any shots up here if you can please

Sika_Stalker

There was an artical in todays examiner about muntjac basicaly telling people about them and complaining about them

Terrier

From the Examiner

oh deer, another foreign invader

By Richard Collins
ACCORDING to Dr Ferdia Marnel of the National Parks and Wildlife Service, Ireland has a new wild mammal.


Muntjac are on the loose in Co Wicklow. There have been three reliable sightings of them to date. However, this is not good news; foresters claim that muntjacs destroy young trees. These animals don’t belong in Ireland and whoever brought them in has behaved most irresponsibly.

Also known as the ‘barking deer’, the muntjac is an elegant creature. Tiny by deer standards, a mature male is less than a metre long from nose to tail and weighs only 15kg. For comparison, a fallow deer buck, in the Phoenix Park, might reach 80kg. Muntjac have chestnut coats, pale bellies and rabbit-like tails. Tiny tusks project downwards from the upper jaw. The male’s short antlers resemble a goat’s horns. Females don’t have antlers. Broadleaved or mixed woodland is the preferred habitat. Saplings, ivy, fruit, acorns and berries feature in their diet.
Being native to the tropics, where the climate doesn’t change much throughout the year, muntjac can breed in any month. There are no rutting seasons, harems or herds. Instead, females live solitary lives on loose home ranges. The local buck will patrol several ranges, mating with each female in turn.

Unlike Irish stags, who take no interest in their offspring, muntjac bucks sometimes associate with their fawns. Captive ones groom the young although it’s not known if they do so in the wild.

There are about 11 kinds of muntjac, but scientists argue as to how they should be classified. In 1996 a new species, the giant muntjac, was identified in a zoo in Laos. The following year, another species, this time a tiny one, was found in Vietnam. Yet another was discovered the year after that. The ones in Wicklow are probably Reeves’ muntjac, natives of China. Their name honours JR Reeves, the Assistant Inspector of Tea for the British East India Company in the 19th century, who collected the type specimen.

England has a thriving population of about 40,000 muntjac. A few animals were brought to Woburn Abbey in Bedfordshire 100 years ago but the muntjac living wild in England are not descended from them. Escapees from a zoo and released animals are the source of the population. Numbers are increasing steadily and the muntjac seems set to become Britain’s most numerous deer.

Here in Ireland, history is repeating itself. Back in 1860, Lord Powerscourt brought a sika deer stag and three hinds to his estate in Wicklow for hunting. These deer are native to Japan and the Wicklow herd was the first one to be established elsewhere in the world. There were red deer in Wicklow then. Although the sika is small, a stag weighing about 64kg, while the red is large, at up to 255kg, the two interbred and the animals roaming the Wicklow hills today are red-sika hybrids. Some of the Wicklow sika were brought to Killarney. Fortunately, they didn’t interbreed with the reds there.

The Phoenix park deer were introduced by another aristocratic landowner. The Duke of Ormond remained loyal to the Stuarts during the reign of Cromwell and, following his restoration to the throne, a grateful Charles II gave him land which included the park. The fallow deer, introduced by the duke, have thrived there ever since. Natives of southern Europe, fallows were first brought to Britain by the Romans and to Ireland by the Normans.

The red deer is usually regarded as a native but this claim has been disputed. An ancient red population was wiped out during the last Ice Age. Bones found since then are only 4,000 years old, suggesting that the animal may have been brought to Ireland by Neolithic people. Foreign reds have been released here more recently, so the ancient blood is tainted.

The little muntjac may not have a claim to Irish citizenship but it’s in good company. None of our deer, with the possible exception of the red, have much of an Irish pedigree

ivanthehunter

Mellor
the wk-end is not such a good time as the woods are pack-tastic with crazy people and their hyper dogs

robp

Theirs an article about the muntjac in todays Irish times.
Apparently they are now present in south wexford and in the north as well as Wicklow.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0326/1206144724824.html

tiny-nioclas

can you copy and paste that story in the irish times ropb, you need to be a subscriber to the times to read that link? if their in wexford they should be in waterford in ten years time

E. Fudd

The Mirror has an article today on muntjac in Ireland.
It claims that they have been released by hunters!!:eek:

robp

I forgot that these campus computers that i'm using are different.
Maybe the suir will keep waterford safe for a while.

"Concern over illegal spread of Chinese deer
SEÁN Mac CONNELL, Agriculture Correspondent

A SPECIES of Chinese deer which is about the size of a fox and barks like a dog, has been illegally introduced into the wild in Ireland.

According to Dr Ruth Carden, a consultant zoologist with the Irish Wildlife Trust, the species, the Chinese muntjac, has already established itself in the southeast.

She blamed "irresponsible and ignorant" hunters for bringing the deer to Ireland, probably from Britain. She said the Chinese or Reeves' muntjac has the capacity to cause enormous damage to habitat and crops, and will be impossible to control.

"There had been reports that the species, which is about the size of a fox and is often mistaken for a fox as it barks like a dog, had been brought in here illegally four or five years ago," she said.

She said the first release seemed to have been in south Wexford and the animals were spotted along the banks of the river Slaney. In the last year or two, she said, two of the muntjac had been shot by hunters in the Annamoe/Avoca area of Co Wicklow.

"Their introduction was selfish, ignorant and totally illegal and was probably done by hunters not realising the impact it would have," she said. She said the muntjac, which was the size of a fox, and weighed between 15kg and 20kg, was a small animal which could easily hide in bracken and was difficult to see.

"They become sexually mature at six months so there is no closed breeding season as they breed within weeks of birthing. They also live for about 15 years," she said.

"They create the same problems as other deer species and like all kinds of woodland and young roots. They will eat farm crops and are very opportunistic," she added.

She said it would be very difficult to eradicate the species because it appeared it had now established itself here and there had been reports that the species had also been introduced in Northern Ireland.

She said the deer muntiacus reevesi had been brought into Britain in 1900.

Dr Carden appealed to any members of the public who spot the new species to e-mail her at ruthfcarden@gmail.com."

Deer Hunter DL

any reports of them in donegal yet i`d like to get stalking these

meathstevie

NPWS to organise driven shoots with the local gunclubs and registered firearm owners who express an interest, shotguns with heavy load buckshot only for safety reasons. In a short while the muntjac problem will be sorted or at least under control. Species have been hunted to extinction in the past so it realy can't be impossible at all to do this with a still relatively small muntjac population in the East and South-East.

jwshooter

robp wrote: »

I forgot that these campus computers that i'm using are different.
Maybe the suir will keep waterford safe for a while.

"Concern over illegal spread of Chinese deer
SEÁN Mac CONNELL, Agriculture Correspondent

A SPECIES of Chinese deer which is about the size of a fox and barks like a dog, has been illegally introduced into the wild in Ireland.

According to Dr Ruth Carden, a consultant zoologist with the Irish Wildlife Trust, the species, the Chinese muntjac, has already established itself in the southeast.

She blamed "irresponsible and ignorant" hunters for bringing the deer to Ireland, probably from Britain. She said the Chinese or Reeves' muntjac has the capacity to cause enormous damage to habitat and crops, and will be impossible to control.

"There had been reports that the species, which is about the size of a fox and is often mistaken for a fox as it barks like a dog, had been brought in here illegally four or five years ago," she said.

She said the first release seemed to have been in south Wexford and the animals were spotted along the banks of the river Slaney. In the last year or two, she said, two of the muntjac had been shot by hunters in the Annamoe/Avoca area of Co Wicklow.

"Their introduction was selfish, ignorant and totally illegal and was probably done by hunters not realising the impact it would have," she said. She said the muntjac, which was the size of a fox, and weighed between 15kg and 20kg, was a small animal which could easily hide in bracken and was difficult to see.

"They become sexually mature at six months so there is no closed breeding season as they breed within weeks of birthing. They also live for about 15 years," she said.

"They create the same problems as other deer species and like all kinds of woodland and young roots. They will eat farm crops and are very opportunistic," she added.

She said it would be very difficult to eradicate the species because it appeared it had now established itself here and there had been reports that the species had also been introduced in Northern Ireland.

She said the deer muntiacus reevesi had been brought into Britain in 1900.

Dr Carden appealed to any members of the public who spot the new species to e-mail her at ruthfcarden@gmail.com."

The only person acting irresponsible and ignorant hear is DR for want of a better word for her carden . i live out side enniscorthy and have a mile of shooting rights along the slaneys for duck and game and i have fished it for years ,and the only alien species causing enormous damage along its banks are mink.how dare she call us such names .years ago a man fishing thought he saw a munjac ,i have not heard any thing sence .and only one deer has been confirmed shot in wicklow . or is she just trying to justfy her pay cheque.

J. Ramone

I agree JW. I live near the Avonmore watershed and haven't heard of any sightings of muntjac by anybody I know. Have fished on the Avonmore and the only deer i've seen along it last summer were sika.

If there is a population which posed any real threat of establishing, don't you think our dogs would be bolting the odd one on our forays after pheasants and woodcock. None of the media reports seem to put any meat on their claims of impending disaster for our native woodland flora. Instead we are getting the usual muntjac info obtained by the cutting edge journalistic skills of quoting anybody who wants to be heard and looking up encyclopedias.

So, who's heard any other strange barking lately?

John Griffin

jwshooter wrote: »

The only person acting irresponsible and ignorant hear is DR for want of a better word for her carden . i live out side enniscorthy and have a mile of shooting rights along the slaneys for duck and game and i have fished it for years ,and the only alien species causing enormous damage along its banks are mink.how dare she call us such names .years ago a man fishing thought he saw a munjac ,i have not heard any thing sence .and only one deer has been confirmed shot in wicklow . or is she just trying to justfy her pay cheque.

J. Ramone wrote: »

I agree JW. I live near the Avonmore watershed and haven't heard of any sightings of muntjac by anybody I know. Have fished on the Avonmore and the only deer i've seen along it last summer were sika.

If there is a population which posed any real threat of establishing, don't you think our dogs would be bolting the odd one on our forays after pheasants and woodcock. None of the media reports seem to put any meat on their claims of impending disaster for our native woodland flora. Instead we are getting the usual muntjac info obtained by the cutting edge journalistic skills of quoting anybody who wants to be heard and looking up encyclopedias.

So, who's heard any other strange barking lately?

Ok i haven't seen a single living Muntjac in Wicklow yet either. What i have seen and photographed is the one that was shot near avoca. Thats the only one I know of that was shot so far. I know of 3 other reliable sightings. And i've heard of my more unconfirmed. Nobody knows how many are out there, except maybe for the lads that released them. They are very secretive animals also and if in low densities I feel it might be years before i see one in the wild.
I heard of that one on the slaney years ago also. But never heard another thing about them until last summer.

meathstevie wrote: »

NPWS to organise driven shoots with the local gunclubs and registered firearm owners who express an interest, shotguns with heavy load buckshot only for safety reasons. In a short while the muntjac problem will be sorted or at least under control. Species have been hunted to extinction in the past so it realy can't be impossible at all to do this with a still relatively small muntjac population in the East and South-East.

Where did you get this information?

meathstevie

Nowhere John, just a big tongue in cheek proposal to sort a potential muntjac situation before it's Grey Squirrell The Sequel. Noticed I forgot to put in the question mark. Can't edit now for some reason.

In fairness now, this is the way the people on the continent often sort out overpopulation problems with destructive or vermin species. I've seen and heard of it being done in the Belgian Ardennes where the local equivalent of a Wildlife Ranger organises a couple of meetings with hunters and gamekeepers in an area to set up a culling schedule for wild boar that were causing too much agricultural damage. The result is an extra couple of days of driven hunts ( rifles not shotguns ) with as many hands on deck as possible. The one I was at with the Dad ( we're talking late 80's now ) was that well organised that rangers were roaming from drive to drive staying in touch with two way radios and calling of the whole thing the moment they knew the target cul was achieved.

jwshooter

CJhaughey wrote: »

I am not sure if anyone else saw this in the Examiner last week, but there was an S.I. for the hunting of Muntjac deer printed.
I was not aware that we had Muntjac in the State, but the S.I. was to allow hunting of wild Muntjac by anyone in possession of a current deer license.
Can anyone throw some light on this?

well thats another season over ,

Tackleberrywho

ivanthehunter wrote: »

I thought it was illegal to introduce a non-native species into Ireland, with that in mind i fail to understand the S.I. in relation to muntjac. If these deer are not wanted in this country then why are the afforded any breeding time.. Seems to be a contradiction. Such a new threat to our Eco-system should be sorted out with a 'all hands on deck' approach if the government was serious about the problem..
Personally i think its going to be great for sport shooting but will soon become a real problem.

The Muntjac Deer problem exists in the UK at present and is some-way controlled by their open season. What seems to escape the thought process here is the fact that Ireland has a much lower hunter population density than the UK, i think that there is 20 people in england(not UK) for every one person in the Rep Ireland.. This species will soon run a muck if all firepower is not brought to bear down on it.. If control on this future problem species is to be considered then an 'all rifle' approach is seriously required. By this i mean all rifles from .22 up or even .17's.

Has anybody shot killed and photographed one of these or are they like leprechauns?? Or wild big cats?

BigAl>>

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Has anybody shot killed and photographed one of these or are they like leprechauns?? Or wild big cats?

Lots of people claiming to have seen or shot these............But has anyone gotten thier pot of gold???

W e are all tlking about leprechauns right??

"Just joking"


Only place I seen these deer is in fota in cork,dont think they would take too kindly to me stalking them in the park. Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I dont see any problem with them breeding here. Wish I had of tought of tht myself years ago..........would mean lots more fun today....imagine they would be great fun to stalk.

IRLConor

BigAl>> wrote: »

Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I dont see any problem with them breeding here. Wish I had of tought of tht myself years ago..........would mean lots more fun today....imagine they would be great fun to stalk.

I can't remember the exact reasons for it being bad but Muntjac breed all year round, not just in one season. I don't know exactly but I imagine this would allow them to breed faster. From what people have said on this forum, the numbers of deer aren't being controlled as it is, introducing another species of fast-breeding deer can't help.

In general, introducing a non-native species to a habitat is a great way of re-proving the law of unintended consequences. Australia has been bitten by this several times over.

Perhaps NoNameRanger or John Griffin could enlighten us further.

jwshooter

:cool:

IRLConor wrote: »

I can't remember the exact reasons for it being bad but Muntjac breed all year round, not just in one season. I don't know exactly but I imagine this would allow them to breed faster. From what people have said on this forum, the numbers of deer aren't being controlled as it is, introducing another species of fast-breeding deer can't help.

In general, introducing a non-native species to a habitat is a great way of re-proving the law of unintended consequences. Australia has been bitten by this several times over.

Perhaps NoNameRanger or John Griffin could enlighten us further.

there was a big wright up in the wicklow people this week about muntjac ,there going to take over the country and rape all before them .the lovely little feckers

tiny-nioclas

the lovely little feckers haha! nice little deer though,very handy size how many do "they" think are in the country,

jwshooter

tiny-nioclas wrote: »

the lovely little feckers haha! nice little deer though,very handy size how many do "they" think are in the country,

tiny i got offered wild boar for 350 each this week and the not too far from you .. for roasting mind .there is a white sika hind in wicklow and a off white stag .i would think there is more white sika than barking deer in our land

tiny-nioclas

tiny i got offered wild boar for 350 each this week and the not too far from you .. for roasting mind .there is a white sika hind in wicklow and a off white stag .i would think there is more white sika than barking deer in our land

The boar, were they farmed?? not alot of muntjac around so! got any pics of the white sika?

BigAl>>

IRLConor wrote: »

I can't remember the exact reasons for it being bad but Muntjac breed all year round, not just in one season. I don't know exactly but I imagine this would allow them to breed faster. From what people have said on this forum, the numbers of deer aren't being controlled as it is, introducing another species of fast-breeding deer can't help.

In general, introducing a non-native species to a habitat is a great way of re-proving the law of unintended consequences. Australia has been bitten by this several times over.

Perhaps NoNameRanger or John Griffin could enlighten us further.

True Ausy land has been bitten b4.....................but they have no end of game to shoot over there (lucky b**stards). Once worked with an Ausy guy who told me of an old military barracks(abandoned) in the middle of outback , which was completely full off kangraroos and not to let the opportunity go to waste they use it as a military sniper training ground. I am so going to visit there one day.(hopefully)

As for the dear not being controlled..........just point me and many others in the right direction and am sure many would gladly do as much controlling as required.

One last thing....and getting back on subject, I reckon munjac would be great to hunt with the dogs. So I for one hope the little feckkers breed like rabbits....Go forth and multiply my little munjac buddies.....LOL(the manic sort)

John Griffin

Muntjac do very little damage to conifer plantations compared to Sika, Fallow and Reds. But they will destroy deciduous woodlands, they basically prevent any regeneration of trees or shrubs. The long term effects of this will be that as our native woodlands mature there will be no trees to replace them and we will lose all our native woodlands.
Muntjac also cause considerable damage to cereal crops and garden plants, they cannot be seen and therefore are impossible to control in cereal crops.
They breed extremely rapidly and are far more difficult to manage than the species we have already and we aren't able to keep them under control.

I have know of 2 white Sika in Wicklow in the last few years and knew both of them since they were calves, one i haven't seen since he was a year old but the hind i know very well. I have had alot more phone calls and reported sightings of Muntjac (Barking Deer) than i have of White deer:):D

jwshooter

i received a phone call this morning from a friend .now this guy has hunted a good bit passed his hcap ,is well read on deer and hunting .he reported to me a sighting of a dead muntjac that he came on when out hunting . his discription over the phone sounded good ,i asked him to take a pic of it on his phone and send it to me . a beep from the phone i was excited to see a munty but it turned out to be a small sika calf in its summer coat .i would think like so many more sightings of our huge population of muntys are hare s and late born calf ..i seen a sika calf one of the days this week it must have been only a month old

John Griffin

jwshooter wrote: »

i received a phone call this morning from a friend .now this guy has hunted a good bit passed his hcap ,is well read on deer and hunting .he reported to me a sighting of a dead muntjac that he came on when out hunting . his discription over the phone sounded good ,i asked him to take a pic of it on his phone and send it to me . a beep from the phone i was excited to see a munty but it turned out to be a small sika calf in its summer coat .i would think like so many more sightings of our huge population of muntys are hare s and late born calf ..i seen a sika calf one of the days this week it must have been only a month old

Agreed! I believe some reports were sika calves. But there are alot of very solid reports also. I know alot of hunters that can't tell a Fallow doe from a Sika hind. And far more that think Fallow and Sika can hybridise. They could tell you anything you want to know about cammo patterns and the twist rate of their rifle though:rolleyes::)

tiny-nioclas

And far more that think Fallow and Sika can hybridise.

Ive met a few who think that too, and their shooting deer more than 10 years, i heard lately from one credible deer stalker that i know of that he saw muntjac foot prints(slots?) around the mellery area of waterford, anyone else hear of this?

John Griffin

Muntjac slots are seriously small, the size of an adult mans thumbnail. Thats the entire foot print!! I wouldn't trust many people to identify a Muntjacs slots, most people expect much bigger footprints. They are smaller than fallow fawn and sika calf slots.