Li-Pos, why aren't we using them?

ED E

Ok, aside from the slight risk of the "Chernobyl effect" and the higher cost I'm just wondering why we dont use Li-pos, or do some of you? They seem to be very efficient for the space they occupy. If I get my MP7 working I'm gonna try and fit one, unless there some horrible reason why they aren't used.

Lethal.

Stercus Accidit

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Ok, aside from the slight risk of the "Chernobyl effect" and the higher cost I'm just wondering why we dont use Li-pos, or do some of you? They seem to be very efficient for the space they occupy. If I get my MP7 working I'm gonna try and fit one, unless there some horrible reason why they aren't used.

Lethal.

I'd like to know some details on these too, I may have a lovely custom rpk on the way, oh please god let it be mine...

Anyhoo, I want to have it running well and a lipo might be an ingredient for that.

Hivemind187

Something to do with the way the electrics in an AEG are set up. I think you have to do a rewire job to use one.

Puding

most of the main points of the lipo where covered in the thread on the kwc g36c, don;t really ahve the time to right a new post at the moment beacuse there is kinda a lot to it but will post the old thread for know.

I've been experimenting and looking into lipo myself, they are a lot more 'labour intensive' than what we are all used to and considerable more dangerous. If your thinking about going the lipo road get the best lipo charger and balancer you can and only get lipos with a rating of 15c or above anything lower and its use in a aeg put to much strain on the lipo and its liable to do nasty things.

I normal stick to a 7.4v 2cell lipos which give about the same output as a 9v ni-mh, the reason for this is that a lipo have a working range of 3v - 4v if any cell drops below 3v its become unstable, with the 2cell 7.4v lipos this can not really happen, the danger lvl is 6v ( first cell 3v second cell 3v = 6v ) and aegs need well above this level to function, with the 11v 3cell packs you can get bellow this level ( first cell 3v second cell 3v third cell 3v = 9v ) the pack can be bellow safe levels and still manage to run a aeg which is again a dangerous situation.

Know I'm not very good at explaining this kind of thing and I've only starting to learn about lipos and such myself, the RC groups have been using these things for years and have a lot of experience and always good for advice, but there use in airsoft is still in its early years.

p.s. I would stay away from the cheap lipos from firefox and such companies found on rsov and gunner, they normally run at 12c discharge which is rather low and are of questionable quality, for what is in reality a chemical bomb its not the time to start being cheap.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055226445&highlight=lipo

BFSL

Puding wrote: »

most of the main points of the lipo where covered in the thread on the kwc g36c, don;t really ahve the time to right a new post at the moment beacuse there is kinda a lot to it but will post the old thread for know.



http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055226445&highlight=lipo

From a recent discussion with ASG, they say that the lipo battery is now being used by CA and they don't have a problem.
Apparently all CA guns are already lipo ready, are mobile phone batteries a for of lipo?, if so then they are probably one of the most popular batteries around.

ED E

BFSL wrote: »

From a recent discussion with ASG, they say that the lipo battery is now being used by CA and they don't have a problem.
Apparently all CA guns are already lipo ready, are mobile phone batteries a for of lipo?, if so then they are probably one of the most popular batteries around.

Nah, they're Lithium Ion, not Polymer.

Puding

when they say lipo ready it simply means the internals are of a high enough quality to handle the increase in rof of say a 11v lipo, lipo does not mean under any circumstance that there any more safe. you will always be careful with using them in aegs as unlike rc we do not have a cut off safety circuit, if you put to high a drain on them or drain to much from them which is easy to do with the 11v lipos then your in danger, there great but you have to have a brain and be careful there not for a novice or someone who does not pay attention and keep things well maintained.

BFSL

I heard a story that the whole lipo fear story was a hoax, something to do with a certain computer company planing to use them, but when they had a press release, the battery was faulty, so the opposition ran riot with the story. anyone else hear this?

ED E

BFSL wrote: »

I heard a story that the whole lipo fear story was a hoax, something to do with a certain computer company planing to use them, but when they had a press release, the battery was faulty, so the opposition ran riot with the story. anyone else hear this?

Didn't hear that but the whole bomb thing is exagerated alot. Tou have to short them/Seriously Overcharge them/Put a huge drain on them/Stab them with a steel spike to cause them to blow.

Could a safety cut-off be build and put in the batt compartemnt or beside the gearbox, basically wherever it would fit?

Puding

Maybe for laptop battery or something like that, but lipo for rc planes, rc car and airsoft, there just controlled chemical bombs, non of the saety device of say a laptop, you have people putting these 10c 1200 lipos from rsov and such in there stock tube i can think of a more risky thing than this its asking for trouble.

Puding

Could a safety cut-off be build and put in the batt compartemnt or beside the gearbox, basically wherever it would fit?

You can get them for rc planes, as the voltage in the cells drops it gives the user about 5 mins of lower power to land the plane safely before cutting off, the danger from airsoft is running the to low and the drain but on the battery, the risk is small if you follow safety but there a lot of idiots about.

ED E

Pity....

BFSL

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Didn't hear that but the whole bomb thing is exagerated alot. Tou have to short them/Seriously Overcharge them/Put a huge drain on them/Stab them with a steel spike to cause them to blow.

Could a safety cut-off be build and put in the batt compartemnt or beside the gearbox, basically wherever it would fit?

Im sure you could put a low power cut off device into the wiring on the AEG,
Anyone into electrical engineering ar such.

ED E

BFSL wrote: »

Im sure you could put a low power cut off device into the wiring on the AEG,
Anyone into electrical engineering ar such.

Wheres Dex when you need him?

Puding

Im sure you could put a low power cut off device into the wiring on the AEG,
Anyone into electrical engineering ar such.

You would think so, but even with all the interest in using lipos in airsoft no one seems to do one, you need something that will check the voltage of the cells in the battery and cut off supply when they get close to the 3v zone.

Stercus Accidit

So, in electronics layman terms, under too much load, lipos explode, or at least are in danger of exploding?

Puding

about it yes, 2 main problems are as you said load or the cells being drained bellow the 3volts

BFSL

I just found out how to sort out the lipo problem and i am having a demo unit built this week, the size of a 2amp fuse:)

Boston

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Didn't hear that but the whole bomb thing is exagerated alot. Tou have to short them/Seriously Overcharge them/Put a huge drain on them/Stab them with a steel spike to cause them to blow.

Is that your professional opinion? Shorting a battery is easy enough to do. I've done it myself, as have others. Overcharging, allowing them to run to low or draining them continuously may cause them violently react.


Derek, I'm an electronic engineer. A simple transistor or thyristor circuit would solve the problem of the voltage droping to low. The problem of extended drain would require another solution. I'd have to see the I-V characteristics to suggest a solution.

NakedDex

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Wheres Dex when you need him?

I've never felt so wanted...


A simple voltage regulator would do the job. The likes of a 7805 cuts off at about the 7 volt mark (actually a limitation on it but it would help here) so running it through that would do the job.

BFSL

NakedDex wrote: »

I've never felt so wanted...


A simple voltage regulator would do the job. The likes of a 7805 cuts off at about the 7 volt mark (actually a limitation on it but it would help here) so running it through that would do the job.

what about a by metalic current detector to switch of as the curent rises and the voltage dies

Puding

you would need 2 types of circuit 1 for a 2 cell lipo with a 6v cut off, although you do have the problem of the cells discharging at different rates but from what I've read does not seem to happen much, and a second type of circuit for 3 cell lipos with a 9v cutoff.

ED E

Puding wrote: »

you would need 2 types of circuit 1 for a 2 cell lipo with a 6v cut off, although you do have the problem of the cells discharging at different rates but from what I've read does not seem to happen much, and a second type of circuit for 3 cell lipos with a 9v cutoff.

Clearly marked that wouldn't be too hard. Just have it on RC connectors.

kdouglas

there's a guy on the airsoftmechanics forum working on a lipo circuit for aeg's which cuts off when you hit the lower limit for lipo batteries

Boston

NakedDex wrote: »

A simple voltage regulator would do the job. The likes of a 7805 cuts off at about the 7 volt mark (actually a limitation on it but it would help here) so running it through that would do the job.

Disclaimer: I've never used a voltage regulator.

Where would you get your reference voltage from, and also isn't a regulators job to maintain the voltage at a certain level rather being used as a switch, how do you see it being configured?

NakedDex

Correct but voltage regulators have a lower operating range that cuts them out when they hit it. 7805's specifcally (just speaking from previous use of these on airsoft battery projects) cut out at 7v. Now this is actually a bad thing for most applications but it does effectively work as a solid state switch in this case. Bearing in mind that I have little knowledge of LiPo's, I'm unsure as to what the critical voltages are 7v maybe to too high still.

CrazyRabbit

Woooosh.

That's the sound of the last 10 posts or so going over my head. I have one question though. Am I likely to see an exploding AEG's anytime soon? Because that would just be cool.

From what I gather, lipo's are much lighter, flexible, and have 20% greater capacity. This all sounds really great, but for someone with little electrical knowledge, how hard would it be to rewire an AEG to use these batteries?

Masada

ya dont as far as i know., its plug and play., although id imagine youd need to upgrade internals for the increase in ROF.,.,

Beast ASI

I'm running 11.1 li-po's on a few things....

kdouglas

if you were to use a 7.4v lipo battery, you could run it pretty much stock, an 11.1v battery might need better quality wiring (depending on the aeg,clones generally dont have as good wiring) and you would need to install a mosfet to run 11.1v so that you don't burn out the trigger contacts

which makes me wonder, do those new kwa lipo ready aegs have a mosfet installed? or have they just got much stronger trigger contacts to handle the extra current?

Puding

I don;t believe they come with a mostef install will i;ve never seen one mentioned in any reviews.

Mark_Sc

Actually while we're talking about batteries; is it the voltage that gets you a higher rate of fire? Thinking of doing something special with my G36 sniper

Masada

yep.,

short and sweet.,:D
before going higher voltage though, get rid of those plastic bushes (metal in CA one) and shim the gears, good aul greasing ect., then it should take it no probs., mine is running 10.8 at the mo.,

Mark_Sc

Did that just fit into the stock without any cutting and forcing?

Masada

no i had to make a new grip, im not sure if even the 9.6 will fit in the standard grip actually.,

Tigger

vtec wrote: »

no i had to make a new grip, im not sure if even the 9.6 will fit in the standard grip actually.,

it dosen't take much to get it in

Mark_Sc

So are Lithium-ions pretty much the same thing?

ED E

It may be possible to use Li-pos in conjunction with AEPs/AEGs with the tiny 7.2V cells{eg MP7} as long as they cannot operate at 6V or lower. Thats how this whole thing started, was reading a threa on another forum about increasing the capacity of an mp7 with button cells then Li-po came up...

Beast ASI

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

It may be possible to use Li-pos in conjunction with AEPs/AEGs with the tiny 7.2V cells{eg MP7} as long as they cannot operate at 6V or lower. Thats how this whole thing started, was reading a threa on another forum about increasing the capacity of an mp7 with button cells then Li-po came up...

The 7.2's can give out a lot of power, around the same as a 9.6 nimh, so I'd just watch out on the MP7.

ED E

Beast ASI wrote: »

The 7.2's can give out a lot of power, around the same as a 9.6 nimh, so I'd just watch out on the MP7.

They have more Ah than an Nimh but they do not equal a 9.6v battery.

IRISH RAIL

If I add a flux capacitor to the end of the terminals will that make a difference:D

defenderdude

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

If I add a flux capacitor to the end of the terminals will that make a difference:D

:D:Dmaybe, but you'll have to wait n see - r maybe not


:D:D:D:D:D:D

kdouglas

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

They have more Ah than an Nimh but they do not equal a 9.6v battery.

sure about that?

a 7.2v lipo, depending on the C rating, can put out just as much power as a 9.6v nimh

Boston

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

They have more Ah than an Nimh but they do not equal a 9.6v battery.

Voltage times current equal power. So something at a lower voltage with a higher current and have the same power rating.

ED E

Sorry, bad post on my part. What I meant was: 7.2 is 7.2 no matter what. Yes they may hold a greater amount of energy but that will only cause problems if you use it in one go. Beast cautioned me about damaging my MP7, which a 7.2v Li-po will only be more of a threat if caused to explode.

Puding

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NakedDex

I was quite happy about this until I realised they're not doing them in 3.7v multiples and therefore I can't get a 14.8v. It also means they'll likely be cells rather than packs. Grand for anyone who just wants a higher capacity battery, but for people with size constraints it's no better or worse. I need a high voltage in as small a pack as is possibly, and polymer packs are still my only option for that by the looks of things.