Judo black belts in bjj

Rock99

Was at the bjj competion in sbg 2 weeks ago, it was well worth a look. One thing i did notice was a few white belts where obviously very experience in judo or other grappling arts. Does any one else think this is unfair?? I know its a different art but i think this should not be allowed as nothing would be as bad for a beginner as having a go at a competition only to be throw straight on his back by a judo black belt wearing a white belt. This would be enough to put alot of people off the sport.

I think it's fine. If they were sufficiently good at BJJ they'd be competing in the blue belt division or higher. Other white belts should still be able to be competitive with them.

What is so bad about being thrown by someone with better takedowns? I don't really see how that could drive people away from competing.

Nothingcompares

I was at that competition and I'm a white belt (few stripes) in BJJ and a Brown Belt in Judo. I have no problems competing in the blue belt division but I'm a white belt, therefore, I compete in the white belt division. There was definitely a black belt in one of the white belt divisions but he is in the same boat as me - graded as a white belt. A few of the Polish lads looked to have great take downs but I've no idea if they have grades (or even training) in Judo.

The organisers of the competition stated numerous times that it was geared towards beginners but there weren't enough people there on the day to split the white belt section into white novice and white "advanced".

If you are turned off a sport because you get taken down, good riddance. Who are you btw Rock99?

Like I'm not pretending you don't have a valid point, generally Judo black belts are encouraged to enter BJJ tournaments as Blue belts or Purple belts but all the "judo guys" at the that tournament train in BJJ clubs at least once a week and are therefore "jitz guys" too. The winner of the <90 blue belt division is actually a judo black belt and ungraded in BJJ. The winner of the <70 blue belt was a judo brown belt and a bJJ blue belt!

Like there was no sandbagging or hiding in my opinion, the judo guys (excluding those polish guys as I don't know them) are well known as judo guys so if the organisers wanted to put them in higher divisions they could.

john kavanagh

its a tricky situation and we did our best to put guys we felt were sufficiently experienced in grappling in higher divisions to make it as fair as possible.

2 examples spring to mind julien who is a very good judo black belt but has no bjj grade, we put him in with the blue belts (and he won!)

dylan costigan who has no 'BJJ belt' but has more grappling experience than a lot of blue belts so we put him in with the blue belts and he did quite well if i remember correctly

the point being its impossible for us as organisers to make it perfectly fair...we just do our best. you can have guys with 6-8years training in sambo, freestyle, judo or some other grappling art but 1-2 mths of BJJ so where do you put them.....in international tournaments they'll just enter with the white belts so its a fact you have to get used to!

what we are going to do is encourage the winners of each division to compete in the higher grades the next time....after 5-6 comps the skill level should 'even out' and give everybody the best chance possible

Roper

Yeah I can understand all the points here, but you have to remember it was a BJJ tournament, ergo BJJ grades are the only ones that count. How do you legislate for anyhing else? I have a 2nd degree in TKD and we used to do "grappling", should I go into the purples? Should a guy who has a black belt in traditional Jiu Jitsu go into the black belt division? There are just too many variables. As John said some compromises are made to level things off but this was the first tournament of its kind and I'm sure any inconsistencies will iron out.

Rock99

Thanks for the posts guys good to hear people opinions.

spiral

Good points and in fairness I personally if fighting someone who I think has very good Judo will not play their game , rather I will just get grips and pull guard or just sit down.

You dont have to stand up with someone if you dont want to but you do have to get grips on them first.
Or alternatively just take them down first

dasmoose

Maybe we should have a system where judoka have to wear some kind of warning symbol so BJJ guys can pull guard ASAP

Nothingcompares

how did u get on in ur comp dasmoose?

dasmoose

Funny you asked, I just put up a blog on our bebo page about it

http://www.bebo.com/BlogView.jsp?MemberId=4895120942&BlogId=5887635892

Nothingcompares

harsh loss well done though

dasmoose

Thanks mate. I was pretty happy, that guy's been a blue belt for longer than I've been training jits so as far as I'm concerned it's a win for me that I was so evenly matched with him:)

By the way, next time we're both at the same tourney you need to come say hi to me, i've chatted to you a on boards and ringoftruth a few times now and I'm still not really sure who you are in person I should be at the All Valley next month for sure.

dlofnep

I think judo black belts should enter in blue belt division by default. One of the judo black belts from a local club beats the utter crap out of me on the ground. Granted, I'm no Marcelo Garcia but if he entered a BJJ comp, I'd expect him to enter blue for sure.

Judomad

dlofnep wrote: »

I think judo black belts should enter in blue belt division by default. One of the judo black belts from a local club beats the utter crap out of me on the ground. Granted, I'm no Marcelo Garcia but if he entered a BJJ comp, I'd expect him to enter blue for sure.

why do you think this though, judo and bjj are different sports!!
if somebody had a black belt in tkd do you think they should fight in the blue belt division also as they also have martial arts experience..
it was a bjj tourni therefore you go by the bjj grades, simple as that.

dlofnep

Judomad wrote: »

why do you think this though, judo and bjj are different sports!!
if somebody had a black belt in tkd do you think they should fight in the blue belt division also as they also have martial arts experience..
it was a bjj tourni therefore you go by the bjj grades, simple as that.

Two different sports, that are VERY alike. BJJ is pretty much derived from Judo. Judoka's have an newaza aspect to their game, so after 6 or 7 years or whatever years they have spent getting their black belt, I'd expect their newaza level to be at least blue belt. At least it's been in any of the cases of judo black belts I've rolled with.

Your argument about TKD is completely pointless as TKD is a striking sport, while Judo is a grappling sport, closely tied with BJJ. The only difference between the two is judokas spend most of their time understanding throws, while bjj players spend their time focusing on ground work.

Roper

dlofnep wrote: »

Two different sports, that are VERY alike. BJJ is pretty much derived from Judo. Judoka's have an newaza aspect to their game, so after 6 or 7 years or whatever years they have spent getting their black belt, I'd expect their newaza level to be at least blue belt. At least it's been in any of the cases of judo black belts I've rolled with.

I don't agree. I've rolled with plenty of judo blacks and while they've been good on the ground I wouldn't have called them good BJJ players. They could gain points, which I guess is what we're talking about here, but there are substantial differences to overcome.

That being said, guys seem to go from Judo to BJJ very easily. I don't think the reverse would be true!

Nothingcompares

dasmoose wrote: »

Thanks mate. I was pretty happy, that guy's been a blue belt for longer than I've been training jits so as far as I'm concerned it's a win for me that I was so evenly matched with him:)

By the way, next time we're both at the same tourney you need to come say hi to me, i've chatted to you a on boards and ringoftruth a few times now and I'm still not really sure who you are in person I should be at the All Valley next month for sure.

yes deffo

Nothingcompares

Roper wrote: »

I don't agree. I've rolled with plenty of judo blacks and while they've been good on the ground I wouldn't have called them good BJJ players. They could gain points, which I guess is what we're talking about here, but there are substantial differences to overcome.

That being said, guys seem to go from Judo to BJJ very easily. I don't think the reverse would be true!

I've rolled with loads of judo guys that weren't near blue belt level equivalence but haven't rolled with too many black belts that weren't. I don't think a hard rule is needed, I think any of the judo guys that just enter bjj tournies for the craic and not because they're training bjj will want to compete at blue/purple anyway.

Roper

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I think any of the judo guys that just enter bjj tournies for the craic and not because they're training bjj will want to compete at blue/purple anyway.

True, I've never seen anyone sandbagging and most competitive judo guys want to be competitive I'd say.

droc

Judo and BJJ may be different sports (rule sets) but they're essentially the same arts.

Anyone entering a BJJ competition with vast grappling/submission experience as a white belt is sandbagging, whether they call it that on paper or not.

The onus shouldn't be on the organizers to find the guys who have grappling experience and put them in the higher level of competition, it should be on the competitor (or rather his coach) to say X has been grappling for Y years and should be put in the blue/purple/fuschia belt section.

Competing at a lower level just to win against lesser skilled opponents is cowardly.

DROC

Liam_B

Couldn't agree more..

If your a Judo Black Belt, whats the point in entering a white belt grappling match. No accomplishment there!!
You should at least enter the blue belt division.

Nothingcompares

Liam_B wrote: »

Couldn't agree more..

If your a Judo Black Belt, whats the point in entering a white belt grappling match. No accomplishment there!!
You should at least enter the blue belt division.

Hold on. It wasn't a grappling tournament, it was a BJJ tournament. If you're a white belt in BJJ you should be competing in the white belt division. BJJ and Judo are very similar martial arts but the grading system is completely different and distinct. It's entirely possible for a Judo black belt to have as much ne-waza/ground fighting experience as a white belt because they might spend 90% of their training on throws. It's also possible that a Judo black belt could have a similar skill and experience level as a purple/brown or even black belt.

Liam_B

It's entirely possible for a Judo black belt to have as much ne-waza/ground fighting experience as a white belt because they might spend 90% of their training on throws. It's also possible that a Judo black belt could have a similar skill and experience level as a purple/brown or even black belt.

Lets look at that from another view point.
You can have a Blue Belt with minimum takedown skills and throws with good BJJ fundamentals , competing with the above.
I wreckon ,thats a fair match up!

Nothingcompares

Liam_B wrote: »

Lets look at that from another view point.
You can have a Blue Belt with minimum takedown skills and throws with good BJJ fundamentals , competing with the above.
I wreckon ,thats a fair match up!

what's all this squabbling about takedowns skills anyway, they're only worth two points.

dasmoose

I don't know about you but personally I prefer not to begin matches 2 points down under side control after being slammed into the mat

I agree with Liam tho I think a judo blackbelt versus a bjj blue belt is a fair matchup.