The rights and wrongs of the Air Traffic Controllers strike

kraggy

Zzippy wrote: »

(if the bloody ATC will let me).

Yeah, how dare they ask for more staff so you can fly safely through the skies.

phog

kraggy wrote: »

Yeah, how dare they ask for more staff so you can fly safely through the skies.

But there's ATCs being trained at the moment? As Mick O'Leary says why wasn't there an issue over o/time during the busy travel periods of the summer and Christmas breaks.

P. Breathnach

phog wrote: »

As Mick O'Leary says ...

That's about the worst starting point for any discussion on trade disputes!

I sympathise with anybody whose travel plans are disrupted by this dispute but it's not clear to me where the rights and wrongs of this conflict are. On the face of it, it looks wrong to me that air traffic control cannot operate without staff working a lot of overtime.

Four of a kind

kraggy wrote: »

Yeah, crap that's based on the fact that controllers are expected to come in on days off and work longer hours because of lack of staff because of lack of planning by the IAA.

The French go on strike nearly every couple of years. IF, the strike goes ahead here, it will be the first in a long time if not ever.

Relax dude will ya. I was only venting my frustration at the possibility of having to change my flights etc...thats all. No need to get all political. There's a forum on boards for that I presume.

kraggy

phog wrote: »

But there's ATCs being trained at the moment? As Mick O'Leary says why wasn't there an issue over o/time during the busy travel periods of the summer and Christmas breaks.

Them new recruits haven't started yet as far as I know.

The reason the issue is only coming to light now is that it's just recently that controllers are not doing overtime. They kept the system going on overtime for the last few years but have had enough.

The IAA hasn't recruited trainees since 2001 because it's cheaper for them to pay controllers overtime than the full salary and pension rights of new recruits. It's all about money to them. They won't even recruit qualified controllers cause it means they will have to pay them!

ATC is one job you cannot do too much overtime in as fatigue has a direct effect on safety. The controllers have had enough. The IAA have abused them for too long.

kraggy

Four of a kind wrote: »

Relax dude will ya. I was only venting my frustration at the possibility of having to change my flights etc...thats all. No need to get all political. There's a forum on boards for that I presume.

I'm very much relaxed "dude".

It's important to point out that the controllers are not going on strike for the fun of it.

It's a serious issue and the IAA have been spouting nonsense since this started. For example,the closures of the towers in Shannon, Dublin and Cork being the result of "unofficial strike action" by the controllers. The controllers weren't on strike. There was just nobody to cover as they have finally started to refuse to do voluntary overtime, thus highlighting the chronic, serious staff shortage.

To set your mind at ease, the strike is more likely to not go ahead than go ahead. There's another days deliberations in the Labour Relations Commission next Monday and hopefully an interim solution will be found.

Enjoy Krakow, great town. Make sure you do the Salt Mines.

therecklessone

phog wrote: »

But there's ATCs being trained at the moment?

They commence training in March. If they complete their training (and there are no guarantees they will meet the required standards) they will just about cover upcoming retirements.

phog wrote: »

As Mick O'Leary says why wasn't there an issue over o/time during the busy travel periods of the summer and Christmas breaks.

I'd take what "gentleman" has to say with a pinch of salt. Having read accounts from ATCOs in Dublin and Shannon on PPRUNE it seems staf were being asked to work increasingly more overtime (including one controller finishing a shift in the training centre at 5pm then attending for a night duty that night, and another getting two hours sleep after one 11hr 45min night shift call in only to be woken by a phonecall asking him to attend for another duty in two hours time :eek:)

The IAA are so short-staffed they have contacted recent retirees to beg them to accept contract jobs as instructors in Ballycasey because they cannot release operational staff to train their new intake of cadets.

Four of a kind

kraggy wrote: »

I'm very much relaxed "dude".

It's important to point out that the controllers are not going on strike for the fun of it.

It's a serious issue and the IAA have been spouting nonsense since this started. For example,the closures of the towers in Shannon, Dublin and Cork being the result of "unofficial strike action" by the controllers. The controllers weren't on strike. There was just nobody to cover as they have finally started to refuse to do voluntary overtime, thus highlighting the chronic, serious staff shortage.

To set your mind at ease, the strike is more likely to not go ahead than go ahead. There's another days deliberations in the Labour Relations Commission next Monday and hopefully an interim solution will be found.

Enjoy Krakow, great town. Make sure you do the Salt Mines.

yeah I understand what you mean. Just thought you were having a go or something...my bad! cheers

phog

kraggy wrote: »

Them new recruits haven't started yet as far as I know.

The reason the issue is only coming to light now is that it's just recently that controllers are not doing overtime. They kept the system going on overtime for the last few years but have had enough.

The IAA hasn't recruited trainees since 2001 because it's cheaper for them to pay controllers overtime than the full salary and pension rights of new recruits. It's all about money to them. They won't even recruit qualified controllers cause it means they will have to pay them!

ATC is one job you cannot do too much overtime in as fatigue has a direct effect on safety. The controllers have had enough. The IAA have abused them for too long.

So going on strike will speed up the training?

I don't have a crystal ball but I bet this strike will be resolved by giving more money to the current crop of ATCs and the ATCs will return to work without one additional ATC being immediately added to the workforce.

highlydebased

Unlikely it will speed up the training at all. Nothing to do with the training, they have put many students through the school in recent years but have employed very few if any of them. There are many controllers from abroad on a contract basis.

The issue is not a sufficient level to allow for comfortable operating if controllers do not want to work overtime.......and so on

irishatco

phog wrote: »

I don't have a crystal ball but I bet this strike will be resolved by giving more money to the current crop of ATCs and the ATCs will return to work without one additional ATC being immediately added to the workforce.

First off, it is impossible for anyone to be immeadiately added to the cadre of operational controllers. Even if the IAA were in a position to offer employment contracts this evening to direct entry controllers, it would take months of bookwork and simulation, not to mention On the Job Training to get direct entry recruits up to rating standard.

It might help if the IAA tried advertising job vacancies for direct entries (like Eurocontrol, DFS in germany, NATS in the UK, ASA in Australia have all done in the recent past) instead of hoping that Weston and Baldonnel staff will send in a CV or two.

Acknowledging the lack of staff and putting in place concrete proposals to address this would be a huge help. Yet the IAA still maintains there is no staff shortage...oh really?

Why then are they recruiting 36 cadets for SCP7 which starts in March (50% more than any other previous intake)

Why then have they stated they are looking for upwards of 20 qualified direct entry controllers (despite them still not having placed an ad in the industry press)?

Why are they asking retired staff to accept contracts as instructors in Ballycasey on €300 a day (maybe because they know they can't release staff from operations to train the new recruits)?

In the interim, why shouldn't my colleagues seek to get value for their rest days that they attend for on overtime?

irishatco

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Unlikely it will speed up the training at all. Nothing to do with the training, they have put many students through the school in recent years but have employed very few if any of them. There are many controllers from abroad on a contract basis.

That's not quite true, the last intake of cadets was in 2002 if memory serves me, but had their training suspended when some bright spark decided that we were over staffed. The union challenged the company and the case went to the Labour Court, who ruled that training could be suspended for a total of 12 months and that efforts should be made for the company to find employment for the cadets both within the IAA and with other ANSPs.

There are NO controllers from abroad working on a contract basis within the IAA.

kraggy

phog wrote: »

So going on strike will speed up the training?

I don't have a crystal ball but I bet this strike will be resolved by giving more money to the current crop of ATCs and the ATCs will return to work without one additional ATC being immediately added to the workforce.

No, going on strike will definitely not speed up the training.

But hopefully the threat of strike will make the IAA promise to take on controllers from abroad (though it will take time to train these also, but not as long as new recruits) and also introduce a steady, frequent Student Controller Programme until the shortage is fully rectified.

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Unlikely it will speed up the training at all. Nothing to do with the training, they have put many students through the school in recent years but have employed very few if any of them. There are many controllers from abroad on a contract basis.

The issue is not a sufficient level to allow for comfortable operating if controllers do not want to work overtime.......and so on

No they have not put many students through the school in recent years. As Irishatco has said, the last time they did so was 2001/2. Hence the chronic shortage right now.

BuffyBot

This has been split off from http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055241108

Travel & Holidays isn't the place for discussing the rights and wrongs of this. I've moving it over to Politics which seems like the most appropriate place I can think of.

oscarBravo

...and moved again. Roundy, feel free to lock/merge as appropriate.