Priests and nuns dying out

MementoMori

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/church-crisis-as-number-of-priests-to-drop----66pc-in-20-years-1294781.html


Church crisis as number of priests to drop 66pc in 20 years
By John Cooney
Thursday February 21 2008

'It is impossible to argue with these statistics, and the situation really is very grave'

The Catholic Church in Ireland faces a catastrophic drop in the numbers of priests over the next two decades, new figures reveal.

The Church's vocation problem is already reaching crisis levels, as statistics show that 160 priests died in the last year, while only nine men were ordained.

In 2007, 228 nuns died but only two took final vows for service in religious life.

If current trends continue, the number of priests is set to plummet to just one-third over the next 20 years. Unless there is a miraculous upswing in vocation, the number of priests will drop from 4,752 priests, to just over 1,500 by 2028.

The problem is exacerbated by the ageing profile of the clergy. The current average age of priests is 61, which means that in the next 15 years the majority will have retired.

The situation with female religious is even more stark, with more than 100 nuns dying every year for each new sister professed.

The National Director of Vocations, Fr Paddy Rushe, commenting on the statistics, published in the 'Irish Catholic' newspaper, said: "Obviously it is a stark statistic, and it communicates to me, as a vocations promoter, the urgency there is in addressing the number of vocations".

Fr Eamonn Bourke, Director of Vocations for Dublin, said that "the statistics bring the problems we are facing into sharp focus".

"It's impossible to argue with statistics, and the situation is very grave."

He said that "for a long time people have failed to realise how much the decline is, hopefully with statistics like this people will realise their responsibility to come forward and do something".

Fr Bourke said he was "concerned that some priests are reluctant to offer priesthood to people as a valuable way of life".

"It will take a long time to increase this confidence," he said.

- John Cooney

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Xhristy

This post has been deleted.

mukki

MementoMori wrote: »

"It's impossible to argue with statistics, and the situation is very grave."

He said that "for a long time people have failed to realise how much the decline is, hopefully with statistics like this people will realise their responsibility to come forward and do something".

come forward and do something?

are they hoping people will feel sorry for them and become a priest?

never get married!
never have kids!
and sure these days you'd and get branded a perv by anyone who half knows ya!

Dades

If they want a miraculous take-up on vocations just allow the poor guys to get married.

Though there's plenty of Third World priests ready for export.

Hivemind187

Dades wrote: »

If they want a miraculous take-up on vocations just allow the poor guys to get married.

Though there's plenty of Third World priests ready for export.

Are you suggesting a kind of Catholic "Blazing Saddles"?

... I'd watch that.

CerebralCortex

This is good news.

Zillah

Brilliant. While most people are happy to say "Yes I'm a Catholic", there just isn't the sort of belief that leads people towards becoming a priest.

The nun ratio is amazing, 100:1. I think it says good things about our society that virtually no women feel they should become brides of christ anymore.

Run_to_da_hills

Dades wrote: »

If they want a miraculous take-up on vocations just allow the poor guys to get married.

Though there's plenty of Third World priests ready for export.

Not as easy as that, they would have to rewrite their books and change centuries of tradition. They could risk loosing substantial real estate in divorce lawsuits. (If they have not lost enough of it in Pedophile and sex scandal settlements already).

Ekancone

It would be a shame is we lost Catholicism, in my opinion. It would leave the door open for those evangelical nuts to take over. I would take the Vatican over them ANY day.

sdep

Dades wrote: »

If they want a miraculous take-up on vocations just allow the poor guys to get married.

From what I've seen of the church on an island not too far away, I agree it's healthier that a priest should be able to marry if she wants.

Ekancone

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They could risk loosing substantial real estate in divorce lawsuits.

Well surely their superior moral values would rule that scenario out. :rolleyes:

aidan24326

Dades wrote: »

If they want a miraculous take-up on vocations just allow the poor guys to get married.

That's the only way the church will have any chance of survival in the longer term, and it's baffling that they continue with this rule when it's so self-defeating. Their inability to change and adapt will ultimately be their ruination. Whatever about priests, nuns will soon be gone altogether. You'd hear of the odd priest ordination from time to time, but you never hear of girls joining the nuns. They'll have no-one to blame but themselves if they don't move with the times.

robindch

daithifleming wrote: »

It would be a shame is we lost Catholicism, in my opinion. It would leave the door open for those evangelical nuts to take over. I would take the Vatican over them ANY day.

That's assuming that the same people who are susceptible to evangelism are also the ones who are susceptible to catholicism, and I don't believe that's the case.

While acquiring market share, evangelical religion is transmitted mainly from person to person using horizontal transmission modes similar to Tupperware's and Ann Summers'. Catholicism, on the other hand, uses mainly vertical propagation through the control of schools, the exerting of subtle and unsubtle social pressure, and a well-funded, longstanding worldwide infrastructure dedicated to itself.

I don't believe therefore that the evangelical and catholic markets are able to acquire exactly the same people, so the decline of one should not imply the growth of the other.

Anyhow, it will be interesting to see over the next ten to twenty years how the two slug it out. My gut instinct is that the evangelicals will pick up a few strays here and there, but the decline in the number of catholics will be far greater.

Ekancone

robindch wrote: »

That's assuming that the same people who are susceptible to evangelism are also the ones who are susceptible to catholicism, and I don't believe that's the case.

While acquiring market share, evangelical religion is transmitted mainly from person to person using horizontal transmission modes similar to Tupperware's and Ann Summers'. Catholicism, on the other hand, uses mainly vertical propagation through the control of schools, the exerting of subtle and unsubtle social pressure, and a well-funded, longstanding worldwide infrastructure dedicated to itself.

I don't believe therefore that the evangelical and catholic markets are able to acquire exactly the same people, so the decline of one should not imply the growth of the other.

Anyhow, it will be interesting to see over the next ten to twenty years how the two slug it out. My gut instinct is that the evangelicals will pick up a few strays here and there, but the decline in the number of catholics will be far greater.

So you think more people will become atheist? I doubt it, i think that people are becoming disilusioned with the Catholic Church. This results in a number of possible reactions:

1) They give up on religion

2) They seek a new form of Christianity, one that gets back to basics (evangelicalism)

If the Catholic Church continues to collapse I foresee a situation where the appeal of a decentralised Christianity growing. Therefore i think that those dissilusioned followers will turn to fundamentalism.

Hopefully i am wrong.

Zillah

robindch wrote: »

I don't believe therefore that the evangelical and catholic markets are able to acquire exactly the same people, so the decline of one should not imply the growth of the other.

Exactly the same people, perhaps not. But I'd be very suprised if the sets did not have a very large overlap. Plus, we're not neccessarily talking about Catholics becoming Evangelicals, more relevant is the next generation who, in the absence of a strong Catholic tradition, are ripe for Evangelical conversion.

Ekancone

Zillah wrote: »

Exactly the same people, perhaps not. But I'd be very suprised if the sets did not have a very large overlap. Plus, we're not neccessarily talking about Catholics becoming Evangelicals, more relevant is the next generation who, in the absence of a strong Catholic tradition, are ripe for Evangelical conversion.

Good point.

Halfdog

daithifleming wrote: »

It would be a shame is we lost Catholicism, in my opinion. It would leave the door open for those evangelical nuts to take over. I would take the Vatican over them ANY day.

You obviously don't have any kids attending any boarding schools run by Priests!

eoin5

I think a third vatican council is in order!

Dades

eoin5 wrote: »

I think a third vatican council is in order!

To the hydrofoil!

robindch

Zillah wrote: »

Exactly the same people, perhaps not. But I'd be very suprised if the sets did not have a very large overlap.

I'd expect come overlap, but not necessarily a huge amount, because as much as religion purports to be an internal belief alone, it's driven at least as much again, and possible a lot more so, by the external social activity that goes on in its name to support and develop it.

Bearing that in mind, I suspect that evangelical religion is rampant in the USA because it's never had an established state religion, thereby allowing religious variations to evolve freely in a social context which is specific to the USA. One thing that strikes me specifically about the recent massive growth of the USA's grisly city-based megachurches, is that they provide an apparently family-friendly focus point which is prominently missing from the vast car-friendly, but people-unfriendly, cities that have grown up over the last fifty years. They're also use green-field focus groups to deliver slick locale-specific religious content which is a pretty neat social adaption which the state-based, non-granular religions will have (do have!) real trouble defeating.

Anyhow, nothing like these dislocated social conditions exist here in Ireland and I think it's going to be quite difficult for the evangelicals to gain significant market share, at least in the short term anyway.

Zillah wrote: »

we're not neccessarily talking about Catholics becoming Evangelicals, more relevant is the next generation who, in the absence of a strong Catholic tradition, are ripe for Evangelical conversion.

Yes, that's exactly why I mentioned ten or twenty years in my original post! All that we can be really sure about is that the evangelical religions will evolve at a much higher rate than the unadaptive, doomed catholic religion.

At that stage, the question will be whether or not the future non-catholic society will have developed an adequate immunity to evangelical assault. I'm inclined to think that it will have, but perhaps that's just my optimistic nature

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

This is good news.

You never miss a chance to have a go at the Church do you!? Some day you will regret your attacks and before you say anything, I'm not being condescending/smug.

Ekancone

kelly1 wrote: »

You never miss a chance to have a go at the Church do you!? Some day you will regret your attacks and before you say anything, I'm not being condescending/smug.

What if its Vishnu? Then you are proper fu(ked.

mukki

kelly1 wrote: »

You never miss a chance to have a go at the Church do you!? Some day you will regret your attacks and before you say anything, I'm not being condescending/smug.

people who think the church is a big joke will enjoy to hear bad things happen to it!


any company that doesn't allow its staff to have a love life or start a family wont get any new recruits, until the day comes again when there is no other jobs available

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

You never miss a chance to have a go at the Church do you!? Some day you will regret your attacks and before you say anything, I'm not being condescending/smug.

You're perfectly right and I'll take every chance I get. When will that day be that I have something to regret as a matter of interest?

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

You're perfectly right and I'll take every chance I get. When will that day be that I have something to regret as a matter of interest?

I very sincerely hope and pray that you regret your attacks long before you die. Like it or not, you're attacking the same Church founded by Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The Church is far from perfect and terrible damage has been done to the Church and to innocent victims by the actions of a minority. The same Church that you're attacking has the power to save your soul from damnation and it's going to take a whole lot of humility for you to save your soul. By attacking the Church, you are commiting a serious crime against God. I'll pray for you.

Dave!

*goes to a Mosque to seek salvation*

Doctor DooM

kelly1 wrote: »

I very sincerely hope and pray that you regret your attacks long before you die. Like it or not, I think you're attacking the same Church founded by Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The Church is far from perfect and terrible damage has been done to the Church and to innocent victims by the actions of a minority.In my opinion The same Church that you're attacking has the power to save your soul from damnation and it's going to take a whole lot of humility for you to save your soul. By attacking the Church, you are commiting a serious crime against God. I'll pray for you.

Fixed that for you.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

I very sincerely hope and pray that you regret your attacks long before you die. Like it or not, you're attacking the same Church founded by Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The Church is far from perfect and terrible damage has been done to the Church and to innocent victims by the actions of a minority. The same Church that you're attacking has the power to save your soul from damnation and it's going to take a whole lot of humility for you to save your soul. By attacking the Church, you are commiting a serious crime against God. I'll pray for you.

Well thats impossible because I don't have a soul to be saved. I genuinely appreciate your concern but you're worrying for nothing. But I worry for you and those around you due to the fact that you believe that the church something more than it is.

Stephen

robindch wrote: »

All that we can be really sure about is that the evangelical religions will evolve at a much higher rate than the unadaptive, doomed catholic religion.

The thought of those guys evolving brings a smile to my face

eoin5

kelly1 wrote: »

The Church is far from perfect and terrible damage has been done to the Church and to innocent victims by the actions of a minority.

Surely the most terrible damage has been caused by minorities within the church. From those clergy selling indulgences to priest child abusers it has always been its own worst enemy.

kelly1

eoin5 wrote: »

Surely the most terrible damage has been caused by minorities within the church. From those clergy selling indulgences to priest child abusers it has always been its own worst enemy.

Yes, that's what I meant. I agree totally.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

isn't that what he meant?

eoin5

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes, that's what I meant. I agree totally.

Sorry, from the context of your post I thought that it was the anti-church minority you were talking about but now I see what youre getting at.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

still seems a little strange that a vehicle as wondrous and true as the catholic church would succumb so easily to human foibles. God must have been busy elsewhere at the time.

the_syco

Now that people don't believe all the brimstones and fire crap, there's less of a reason to become a nun. There's not really any reason to become a priest.

kelly1: can you, without using the word, or idea of "faith" describe why someone should become a priest?

Run_to_da_hills

the_syco wrote: »

Now that people don't believe all the brimstones and fire crap, there's less of a reason to become a nun. There's not really any reason to become a priest.

kelly1: can you, without using the word, or idea of "faith" describe why someone should become a priest?

Of all the Christian denominations the Catholic Church is probably the least of them to preach about fire and brimstone, they have this "other" place in mind called "Purgatory"

Tomk1

kelly1 wrote: »

The Church is far from perfect and terrible damage has been done to the Church and to innocent victims by the actions of a minority.

1. The church/religion has damaged every innocent person it has come into contact with. Everyone was innocent to the brainwashing as a child, If at a reasonable age someone was given the choice to go religious then ok, but to force this mythology onto innocent children is a form of mental child abuse.

2. We all know about the WW2 holocaust, but no-one speaks about a far worse holocaust where over 15 million people were tortured and murdered between 1203-1805 during the Catholic Inquisition. Ironically it was introduced by pope “innocent” the third.

Today Christians no longer has the right to murder nonbelievers so KELLY1 why don’t you learn something for yourself about the church that you follow and then make up your mind if this religion defines your life.

Just over 200 years ago I could have been tortured & murdered for saying this, yet it is supposed to be “god’s will” that we chose to follow or not “it” (note: according to the bible “god” was neither man nor woman)

3. See YTube “Catholic Inquisition and The Torture Tools” makes Hannibal Lector look like a lamb. Example:(The rack, skullcrusher, iron-virgin-maiden, removing the skin from people, tearing out people’s tounge-eyes-ears-other, removing intestines while keeping person alive, more) all done in the name of jesus-christ.

4. What about all the unmarried girls that had to give up their babies, their flesh and blood.I could not imagine the pain cause to them for their whole life.

Don't pray for me!

Obni

Dades wrote: »

To the hydrofoil!

Brilliant!!!
To the vat-mobile....

I rather hope the Catholic church follows the path taken by the most churches in Britain (notably the Anglican) over the last century. Continue to provide a structure for the introduction of simple concepts of morality to schoolkids (via primary level cathecism class rather than direct contact with clergy), charming nativity plays, providing venues for weddings, somewhere solemn and stately to gather in farewell to friends and family, etc...
I would dread a sudden collapse, followed by serious whack-job evangelicals rushing in to fill the vacuum, or any other fundamentalists (yes I mean *those* fundamentalists). Much better a slow fizzling out of the church's power with people taking as much or as little as they desire from a shared set of principles, while society as a whole becomes ever more secular.

Anyway, if everyone stops believing in god, who'll I look down on?:D

Bottle_of_Smoke

Was up in Derry talking to my cousin about this. She's a Catholic & goes to Mass, knows the local priests, supposedly the last three priests in the parish left to get married. IF this is a common trend around the country the situation is actually a lot worse/better than those statistics suggest.

Dades

Tomk1 wrote: »

2. We all know about the WW2 holocaust, but no-one speaks about a far worse holocaust where over 15 million people were tortured and murdered between 1203-1805 during the Catholic Inquisition. Ironically it was introduced by pope “innocent” the third.

Actually the Inquisition is almost invariably mentioned in threads here.
Usually it's either preceded, or followed by a reference to Stalin.

kelly1

the_syco wrote: »

kelly1: can you, without using the word, or idea of "faith" describe why someone should become a priest?

Hardly, it's totally based on faith. It's like asking me to write with my finger.

pH

kelly1 wrote: »

Hardly, it's totally based on faith. It's like asking me to write with my finger.

or think with your brain.

Dades

That's a bit harsh.
You may not have any respect for "faith", but it's pretty obvious you need it to become a priest.

kelly1

pH wrote: »

or think with your brain.

Are you going to justify that insult? Did I say something stupid and even if I did, does it deserve an insult. More arrogance.

Zillah

kelly1 wrote:

Are you going to justify that insult?

I believe that he is asserting that based on what we have read from you here that your brain does not work very well. Hence he implies that thinking with your brain would be very difficult for you.

I of course would find such a statement to be the height of arrogance and childishness.

donaghs

Most people seem to want some sort of religion, not just spirituality, in their lives. I expect if that as the Catholic Church declines in numbers people will drift into other faiths like evangelical Christianity, Islam and Buddhism. And cults/movements like Scientology.

There are a minority of people who consciously make atheism and agnosticism a choice, but most people (in free societies) choose a religion or seem to drift between religions and levels of relgiousity.

I expect the decline of the Catholic Church to continue, but slow down, like can seen in the United States and Western Europe. Ireland's crammed in a lot of social and economic change in the last 20 years.

bogwalrus

i can vision the future of christianity in ireland being somewhat like the way quakers are in america in this day and age. After a large drop in numbers of christians they will form communities seperate to the main villages and towns where they can continue their worship and not be disturbed. At the moment christianity is well integrated into irish society but it will change to what i describe above.

donaghs

bogwalrus, do you mean the Amish? I know an Irish Quaker and he lives in Dublin city centre and you wouldn't know his religion unless you asked him.

Richard Nixon was an American Quaker also, but I don't think he was as committed to peaceful living as most of them.

pH

OK before I get accused of eating babies I think perhaps a lesson in English and restating what actually has been posted is called for here.

The syco asked kelly1:

"kelly1: can you, without using the word, or idea of "faith" describe why someone should become a priest?"

And kelly1 responded:

Hardly, it's totally based on faith. It's like asking me to write with my finger.

So kelly1's statement in full reads

Asking me to (without using the word, or idea of "faith") describe why someone should become a priest is like asking me to write with my finger.

When I read that it just made no sense to me whatsoever, as a simile goes it was (in my opinion) meaningless, except in a general sense "you've asked me to do the most crazy thing".

From my reading of what syco had asked, I implied that the simile should read as follows:

"Asking me to (without using the word, or idea of "faith") describe why someone should become a priest is like asking me to think with my brain."

Now they're both SIMILES, it could have easily as read "is like asking me to walk with my feet" - the point being that in my view syco's request is a reasonable one and kelly1's simile made no sense to me.

Now I know that religious types love to find offence everywhere they look, but really being told that your simile gets the wrong end of the stick is an insult?

I have no idea how you feel you have been insulted. Is there is a lovely irony here, perhaps you thought I was calling you stupid, and then by misreading the post, have proceeded prove a point that I wasn't making?

Zillah wrote:

I of course would find such a statement to be the height of arrogance and childishness.

You are taking a too literal interpretation of my posts, obviously you need to study more and look for the hidden meaning in my words - I'm sure you can read that post as being a commentary on human understanding and tolerance if you read between the lines a bit and look at in an allegorical light, loaded with metaphorical allusions.

kelly1

I was asked to describe why someone would become a priest without reference to faith when becoming a priest is totally based on faith. He was asking the impossible and since you can't write with your finger, I used that simile. Maybe I could have used a better one.

CerebralCortex

Well then perhaps if you took two people with the same immense level of faith but one decided to be a priest the other didn't. How could this come to be?


I just realised I've gone over a 1000 posts. Yay!
Praise the Louis