Become a Barrister or a Solicitor?

howsthewater

Hi, I’m new here. I’m n my final year of my undergrad in UL, and I have a few questions to ask about the different professions.

First off, what are the major pros and cons of being a Barrister and being a Solicitor? I understand the differences in the work they do, but I can’t decide which is better for me, so I’m trying to do a cost/benefit analysis.

Second, is there a future for new Barristers? It seems like the profession could be dying out, but if deregulation comes in could really boost the job prospects. Any comments on that?

Third, is it harder to become a Barrister or Solicitor? I mean when you take it into account; the entrance exams v the FE1s, the year at the Kings Inns v the PPC, the ability to find a Master v the availability of apprenticeships, etc.

The only people I every really talk to about this are my friends in college, but they have no real experience, so hopefully ye can help shed a bit more light on the subject.

Also, I’m applying to do a Masters in Commercial Law next year. I know this will be a great degree to have if I become a Solicitor, but will it really help me if I become a Barrister? Or, should I be applying for the Criminal Justice Masters in UCC if I want to be a Barrister?

Any help at all will be very much appreciated.

Thanks.

johnnyskeleton

howsthewater wrote: »

First off, what are the major pros and cons of being a Barrister and being a Solicitor? I understand the differences in the work they do, but I can’t decide which is better for me, so I’m trying to do a cost/benefit analysis.

Solicitors get the money, barristers get the wig.

howsthewater wrote: »

Second, is there a future for new Barristers? It seems like the profession could be dying out, but if deregulation comes in could really boost the job prospects. Any comments on that?

Is there a future for anyone? What is this deregulation you speak of - does that mean barristers don't need a taxi plate or licence to practise anymore?

howsthewater wrote: »

Third, is it harder to become a Barrister or Solicitor? I mean when you take it into account; the entrance exams v the FE1s, the year at the Kings Inns v the PPC, the ability to find a Master v the availability of apprenticeships, etc.

Depends on who you are and what you like / don't like doing. Being good at exams and being a competent, likeable person helps a lot in both. I wouldn't be overly concerned with the exams and courses, if you get hung up on these things you might miss the bigger picture.

howsthewater wrote: »

The only people I every really talk to about this are my friends in college, but they have no real experience, so hopefully ye can help shed a bit more light on the subject.

Doesn't make their views any less valid - they might not be able to answer specific questions like which of the big firms have a larger commercial litigation practise, or what kind of work is done at the entry level, but their views on the general issues - i.e. difficulty/nature of the work/potential earnings/their respective roles etc - are as valid as any.

howsthewater wrote: »

Also, I’m applying to do a Masters in Commercial Law next year. I know this will be a great degree to have if I become a Solicitor, but will it really help me if I become a Barrister? Or, should I be applying for the Criminal Justice Masters in UCC if I want to be a Barrister?

Just so you know, there are many commercial barristers and many criminal solicitors, just in case you have the wrong idea there. A masters certainly helps, but what exactly it helps and the extent of that help varies on a case by case basis. I'd say do a masters that you are interested in rather than one which will get you a job, but someone else might say the exact opposite and be just as right.

Thirdfox

I think the "deregulation" s/he is talking about refers to the proposal to take away the monopoly that King's Inns and Blackhall Place have on the barrister and solicitor qualifications.

howsthewater

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Solicitors get the money, barristers get the wig.

I do like wigs... but having money means I can buy my own wig for wearing around the house. Is there a serious difference in the starting pay? I know Barristers get nothing when the Devil, but how long is it generally before they can afford butter and Miwadi to go with your bread and water?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Is there a future for anyone? What is this deregulation you speak of - does that mean barristers don't need a taxi plate or licence to practise anymore?

I hope so, otherwise I've wasted 2 weeks a year studying for my exams! I mean the talk about allowing Barristers to huddle together in masses to share light and heating costs, much like Solicitors do. But seriously, a Barrister that can form an LLP, that's gotta be a good thing!?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Depends on who you are and what you like / don't like doing. Being good at exams and being a competent, likeable person helps a lot in both. I wouldn't be overly concerned with the exams and courses, if you get hung up on these things you might miss the bigger picture.

I am a likeable person, and I love arguing. I'm not very keen on public speaking, but once I'm a minute or so into a presentation I'm usually fine. (You can have a bin with you in court for your first few goes, right? RIGHT!?)

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Doesn't make their views any less valid - they might not be able to answer specific questions like which of the big firms have a larger commercial litigation practise, or what kind of work is done at the entry level, but their views on the general issues - i.e. difficulty/nature of the work/potential earnings/their respective roles etc - are as valid as any.

My big problem with them is that they're all about the hearsay and rumours. And I seem to be the only one in my class actually considering the Bar. Everyone else thinks they will walk into a job as a Solicitor. I honestly can only see about 20 out of the 150 people in my class ever practising. Some people just seem to think you get a law degree and you automatically become a Solicitor and buy a house in Barbados the day after your apprenticeship.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Just so you know, there are many commercial barristers and many criminal solicitors, just in case you have the wrong idea there. A masters certainly helps, but what exactly it helps and the extent of that help varies on a case by case basis. I'd say do a masters that you are interested in rather than one which will get you a job, but someone else might say the exact opposite and be just as right.

I know there are commercial Barristers, but I have heard it is really tough to get into the commercial bar.

Either way, Barrister or Solicitor, I'll be spending the remainder of my life reading, won't I? Why didn't I just go into the Civil Service!

johnnyskeleton

howsthewater wrote: »

I do like wigs... but having money means I can buy my own wig for wearing around the house. Is there a serious difference in the starting pay? I know Barristers get nothing when the Devil, but how long is it generally before they can afford butter and Miwadi to go with your bread and water?

People who go to the bar expecting butter and miwadi are going into it for all the wrong reasons. There is no starting pay, and there is no guarantee of ever making enough money to live off. But the unique thing about the bar is that it is probably the only profession in which if you fail you get an almost immediate pay increase (usually in multiples).

Solicitors usually get just about enough to eek out a living while training and then get decent money, unless they decide to go out on their own in which case, well, see the last paragraph.

howsthewater wrote: »

I hope so, otherwise I've wasted 2 weeks a year studying for my exams!

You jest, I'm sure. The study of law, even of the andrenalin driven kind, is an end in itself, right?

howsthewater wrote: »

I mean the talk about allowing Barristers to huddle together in masses to share light and heating costs, much like Solicitors do. But seriously, a Barrister that can form an LLP, that's gotta be a good thing!?

Hmm...sounds more like regulation than deregulation to me. Che ha compadre ha patrone and all that. I don't think that allowing barristers to form partnerships will be more competitive but I might be wrong. However, if they could form partnerships it would almost certainly be much harder to gain access to the profession.

howsthewater wrote: »

I am a likeable person, and I love arguing. I'm not very keen on public speaking, but once I'm a minute or so into a presentation I'm usually fine. (You can have a bin with you in court for your first few goes, right? RIGHT!?)

Once you're in the saddle, so to speak? As a general rule, for the first few years in either profession you'll be doing mostly administrative tasks, and won't really be dealing with very complicated points of law. So court experiences tend to be quite unlike making a presentation and more like a stockbroker in american movies (with everyone shouting buy buy buy sell sell sell, usually all at once).

howsthewater wrote: »

My big problem with them is that they're all about the hearsay and rumours.

What's wrong with hearsay and rumours?

howsthewater wrote: »

And I seem to be the only one in my class actually considering the Bar. Everyone else thinks they will walk into a job as a Solicitor. I honestly can only see about 20 out of the 150 people in my class ever practising. Some people just seem to think you get a law degree and you automatically become a Solicitor and buy a house in Barbados the day after your apprenticeship.

Nothing wrong with a bit of ambition. But the fact that they associate solicitoring with money is quite telling, isn't it?

howsthewater wrote: »

I know there are commercial Barristers, but I have heard it is really tough to get into the commercial bar.

Well I wouldn't pick a specialisation based on how easy / hard it is to get into (other than viewing it as a profitable sideline), but instead focus on what you like doing. (And then get sucked into a completely different area)

howsthewater wrote: »

Either way, Barrister or Solicitor, I'll be spending the remainder of my life reading, won't I? Why didn't I just go into the Civil Service!

Only daylight hours.

howsthewater

I’ve decided on becoming a Barrister. I will not be able to do it this year. This is because I didn’t do Administrative Law. Not a problem, as I can do it as a link-in subject on a pass/fail basis during my Masters next year.


However, I do need some advice as to what masters to go for. I want to either do a Masters in Commercial Law, or one in Criminal Justice/Human Rights. Both of which will be starting in UL next year.


Which Masters would be better for my career? I would love to live in Cork and practice on the South West Circuit, but how much business would I have as a Commercial Barrister there? I have been told that I would have more work in Cork in criminal cases, but is that true?

johnnyskeleton

howsthewater wrote: »

I’ve decided on becoming a Barrister. I will not be able to do it this year. This is because I didn’t do Administrative Law. Not a problem, as I can do it as a link-in subject on a pass/fail basis during my Masters next year.

I suppose one of the hallmarks of a good barrister is stubbornness in the face of a wealth of evidence against you.

howsthewater wrote:

However, I do need some advice as to what masters to go for. I want to either do a Masters in Commercial Law, or one in Criminal Justice/Human Rights. Both of which will be starting in UL next year.

Which Masters would be better for my career?

Which ever you prefer and think you will get the most educational benefit from. Remember, barristers don't have CVs, and instructing Solicitors will be more concerned with what case you did last week than what masters you did a year or two ago.

howsthewater wrote:

I would love to live in Cork and practice on the South West Circuit, but how much business would I have as a Commercial Barrister there? I have been told that I would have more work in Cork in criminal cases, but is that true?

About the same as anywhere else for the first few years (Commercial work is well paid and therefore goes to the more experienced barristers or those with connections). Circuit works tends to be more criminal, personal injury, licencing and land disputes, so if you can do a masters in convincing someone to plead guilty and how much a broken arm is worth that's probably the best option.

dats_right

A masters degree in law is of very limited value from an employment perspective. Employer's don't generally have any particular regard for them. To be honest, if you want to make your cv stand out from the crowd then you should; firstly, ensure that all your academics are in order i.e. 2:1+ degree, preferably with all 8 FE-1's passed, etc. Secondly, you should get some good, relevant work experience, e.g. work in a large/medium commercial law firm or in a banking/commercial type position, I can't emphasis enough that this will open far more doors than an LLM ever will. Failing the work experience other worthwhile pursuits to further your career might include; learn a language, do the tax exams, maybe even the New York Bar exam. By all means do a masters for your own reasons, just don't do it expecting great rewards career wise.

Also if you intend becoming a commercial barrister, this is not done over night i.e. day 1 post-devilling armed with your wig, gown, BL and LLM you aren't going to have briefs stacking up from the big, medium or to be honest even the small firms in this type of work or probably any type(this is so even if you were lucky enough to get the busiest commercial junior as your master). You will have to slog long and hard trying to develop a practice in the commercial area. In fact, post devilling would be a better time to do a masters as you will have plenty of spare time on your hands.

Albeit, I know plenty of trainees, solicitors and barristers who have masters degrees and I don't think any of them would say that having same helped them to any significant degree in their careers. Off the top of my head the two people who I can think of with commercial LLM's, one is in a family law firm and the other in general practice down the country somewhere. Conversely, I know of one person with a criminal LLM in a large commercial firm and another in an even bigger firm with a human rights LLM!

All that i'm saying really is consider very carefully your reasons for doing an LLM. If it is purely for career reasons, then I think there are better things you could do with your time. Whilst, I'm not saying having an LLM is an impediment to your career, of course it's not, but it is of very limited value.

howsthewater

My main reason for wanting to do a Masters is quite simple. I want to be a Barrister, but I didn’t do all the prerequisite courses needed, so I wouldn’t be able to go to the Kings Inns this year. I’d rather do a Masters and sit Admin Law pass/fail than sit around the house for a year only doing one subject by night or whenever.

I was considering doing the Masters after my Devilling, but I would prefer to do a PhD in the ‘not-a-very-busy-Barrister-time’ afterwards. Perhaps I’ll get to do some tutoring, or maybe even lecturing while I’m waiting for the cases to, hopefully, pile-up.

Plus, when I am a Barrister, and a Solicitor is shopping around for one, I’d hope that seeing BSc, LLB, LLM, PhD, BL, after my name, and just BCL or LLB after the other available guy’s name, would make him lean in favour of picking me.

All I know is, I’m getting a free education, and this is one of the only countries in the world where you can do that, so as long as the grants keep coming, I will take complete advantage of the opportunities I have. I believe everyone should go as far as they want/can in education.

johnnyskeleton

howsthewater wrote: »

My main reason for wanting to do a Masters is quite simple. I want to be a Barrister, but I didn’t do all the prerequisite courses needed, so I wouldn’t be able to go to the Kings Inns this year. I’d rather do a Masters and sit Admin Law pass/fail than sit around the house for a year only doing one subject by night or whenever.

Heed the sagely advice of dats_right - you could do the admin course in the Kings Inns diploma one night a week for a year, and work in, for example, a Solicitors office, insurance company or [hint hint] a legal research position such as with the Attorney General/Law Reform Commission etc.

howsthewater wrote:

Plus, when I am a Barrister, and a Solicitor is shopping around for one, I’d hope that seeing BSc, LLB, LLM, PhD, BL, after my name, and just BCL or LLB after the other available guy’s name, would make him lean in favour of picking me.

It doesn't work like that. I don't think any solicitor would go out "shopping" for a barrister, and if they did it would be based more on personal contacts (i.e. from other solicitors, barristers, and from seeing that barrister in court) than on qualifications. Now, if you were for example a renowned lecturer, or had a few years experience as an accountant you might find yourself to be more desireable, but I don't think academic qualifications count for all that much.

howsthewater

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Heed the sagely advice of dats_right - you could do the admin course in the Kings Inns diploma one night a week for a year, and work in, for example, a Solicitors office, insurance company or [hint hint] a legal research position such as with the Attorney General/Law Reform Commission etc.

That is a good idea. I have thought about it. It does pose some practical problems for me, though. I qualify for a grant. That entitles me to have my fees waived by universities and by the Kings Inns. If I were to work full-time for the year, I wouldn’t qualify for the grant anymore. I’m literally in a position where, if I want to do the academia thing for as far as it goes, working is not an option. There’s no way I could ever afford to pay the fees myself.

johnnyskeleton

howsthewater wrote: »

That is a good idea. I have thought about it. It does pose some practical problems for me, though. I qualify for a grant. That entitles me to have my fees waived by universities and by the Kings Inns. If I were to work full-time for the year, I wouldn’t qualify for the grant anymore. I’m literally in a position where, if I want to do the academia thing for as far as it goes, working is not an option. There’s no way I could ever afford to pay the fees myself.

I don't think they charge the full fees if you are doing just one subject (especially if you are going on to do the degree course). Ring them and ask.

I don't see what you mean about there being no way you could afford to pay the fees yourself, i.e:

Option 1) Full time student, free fees and grant of about 2k for the entire year, how do you eat or pay the rent?

Option 2) Work full time and studypart time. Earn €1,600-2,000 p.m. and take out a loan for the fees - to be paid back at approx €200 p.m., leaving €1,400-1,800 for food, rent and other such luxuries.

howsthewater

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I don't think they charge the full fees if you are doing just one subject (especially if you are going on to do the degree course). Ring them and ask.

They let you sit the exam for free, but you have to pay €300 to sit the subject.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I don't see what you mean about there being no way you could afford to pay the fees yourself, i.e:

The fees for the Kings Inns are €12,000.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Option 1) Full time student, free fees and grant of about 2k for the entire year, how do you eat or pay the rent?

I have full fees paid for, and I get a grant of €5,000 on top of that. It covers my rent and leaves me with about €1,200 for books and food for the year. I work a bit at Christmas and over the summer to get more just to survive.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Option 2) Work full time and studypart time. Earn €1,600-2,000 p.m. and take out a loan for the fees - to be paid back at approx €200 p.m., leaving €1,400-1,800 for food, rent and other such luxuries.

I could never study part-time. I don’t have the discipline or the stamina to do both. I would do absolutely no study. Plus, you don’t get a grant for part-time study, and the 2 year part-time BL is starting this year, and only runs every 2 years. If I did take the year out to do admin law, and then wanted to do the part-time BL, I would have to wait another year for the entrance exams.
I have also been told by my bank manager that I will not be getting anymore loans from them. I am basically maxed out. I owe the bank nearly €8,000 as it is, and going in to the bank and saying, ‘hey, can I have a loan for €20,000 so I can move to Dublin to train as a Barrister and then work for exactly €0 per year for a minimum of the next two years, please’ will not impress them.

CantGetNoSleep

Can I just ask is this a scholarship or a grant?

If its a typical higher education local authority grant, they won't pay the fees for you to do a masters or a PhD, am I right?

Have you factored this into your thinking

johnnyskeleton

howsthewater wrote: »

They let you sit the exam for free, but you have to pay €300 to sit the subject.


The fees for the Kings Inns are €12,000.

I meant the fees for doing the one subject, which as you say is 300. It makes more sense in my view to work full time and do a one night a week course in Kings Inns for 300 rather than do a masters and live in povery. Especially since as a barrister you may be living in poverty for the forseeable future and / or the rest of your life.

howsthewater wrote:

I have full fees paid for, and I get a grant of €5,000 on top of that. It covers my rent and leaves me with about €1,200 for books and food for the year. I work a bit at Christmas and over the summer to get more just to survive.

Forget about books, €1,200 for food for 7/8 months is crazy. It's about 150 per month, but if you think about it, it costs €5 for a sandwich and coffee, so if there are 20 college days in the month, that's €100 right there, so €50 for breakfast and dinner every day, and all your food on weekends. There's no money for nights out, entertainment, toothpaste etc, bus fares, newspapers, coffee, cigarettes etc.

If you really want to do a masters go ahead, but I think that work and doing admin in kings inns is the better option financially.

howsthewater wrote:

I could never study part-time. I don’t have the discipline or the stamina to do both. I would do absolutely no study.

It's only one subject. If you want to be a barrister you will need both discipline and stamina, so it's not harm getting used to both.

howsthewater wrote:

Plus, you don’t get a grant for part-time study,

It's only €300, you'd make that in a week in any sort of job.

howsthewater wrote:

and the 2 year part-time BL is starting this year, and only runs every 2 years. If I did take the year out to do admin law, and then wanted to do the part-time BL, I would have to wait another year for the entrance exams.

The first of the 2 year courses starts in October of this year, so if you do a masters or the admin law and work you still will not be in time for the course. But also, you could do the Admin course and take the exam in may/june and then the entrance exam in august.

howsthewater wrote:

I have also been told by my bank manager that I will not be getting anymore loans from them. I am basically maxed out. I owe the bank nearly €8,000 as it is, and going in to the bank and saying, ‘hey, can I have a loan for €20,000 so I can move to Dublin to train as a Barrister and then work for exactly €0 per year for a minimum of the next two years, please’ will not impress them.

All the more reason I should think to want to work and make some money rather than spend another year in college doing a masters. So:

Option 1) Work in Dublin, pay for the kings inns, your rent etc, not want for anything, pay off some of the loans and / or even save up for the following year.

Option 2) Do a masters and your debt will stay the same or increase, have a lower standard of living as a full time student.

DS86

Thirdfox wrote: »

I think the "deregulation" s/he is talking about refers to the proposal to take away the monopoly that King's Inns and Blackhall Place have on the barrister and solicitor qualifications.

Is there any update about this deregulation?

LutherBlissett

Is it true that a chambers system is coming in? If this can set up barriers to entry to the market like it does in the English system, might it alleviate market saturation somewhat?

What would happen to young barristers if a chambers system was brought in, would they have to gather together and try and take in as much as low level work as possible?

Bepolite

LutherBlissett wrote: »

Is it true that a chambers system is coming in? If this can set up barriers to entry to the market like it does in the English system, might it alleviate market saturation somewhat?

The problem with elevating market saturation is you might be some of the evaporation.

LutherBlissett wrote: »

What would happen to young barristers if a chambers system was brought in, would they have to gather together and try and take in as much as low level work as possible?

They'd have to find other jobs in the main. Some will get into chambers and be paid a wage others will squat in much the same system as there is now.

People have the misconception that becoming a barrister is all about contacts. It isn't all about that but there is an element of it. Bringing in chambers would alter that landscape where, IMO, it would become almost all about contacts.