Ireland v Scotland - team selection & build-up

juvenal

After a weekend off with some Magners Celtic League action, with three of the four provinces winning, we’re back into the thick of it with the Irish team.

So, it’s time to get off the fence and put your proverbial money where you mouth is and pick you’re starting XV for the Scotland game, complete with bench. Feel free to add notes etc to back up your selection if you see fit.

15. Geordan Murphy
14. Rob Kearney
13. Andrew Trimble
12. Brian O’Driscoll
11. Tommy Bowe
10. Ronan O’Gara
9. Eoin Reddan
1. Marcus Horan
2. Bernard Jackman
3. Tony Buckley
4. Donnacha O’Callaghan
5. Mick O’Driscoll
6. Denis Leamy
7. David Wallace
8. Jamie Heaslip

Replacements: Rory Best, John Hayes, Simon Easterby, Leo Cullen, Girvan Dempsey, Paddy Wallace, Peter Stringer

If Cullen isn’t fit after a shoulder injury sustained against Cardiff on Saturday night, then Mal O’Kelly comes into the bench. Shane Horgan and Paul O’Connell are the other two who are close, but I feel after seeing them during the weekend they’re both a week or two off full fitness.

I thought Bowe was excellent on Friday night, albeit against a Dragons team that aren’t exactly world-beaters, and Paddy Wallace looked well coming on as a second half sub. I only saw the first ten minutes of London Irish – Leicester yesterday afternoon, but in that time Murphy covered well and held up the ball when Irish looked to have scored. Reddan came on as a replacement for Wasps against Bath on Saturday afternoon, and they won in a cracking game 42-34.

Even though the Grand Slam is gone, I think a complete clear out is pointless, as Eddie should be changing 3/4 positions every game and keeping some of the team leaders there while giving the younger lads a full test 80 minutes.

High&Low

Why drop Girvan Dempsey for Ireland's worst performing player against the French?

redmca

High&Low wrote: »

Why drop Girvan Dempsey for Ireland's worst performing player against the French?

For the same reason that France select Heymans. He may make the odd mistake, but he also makes things happen.

Dempsey has been on the team for ages because he doesn't do much wrong rather than for doing something positive (Stringer survived for so long for the same reason). To blame Murphy for the Clerc tries is too simplistic. We need to be more positive and Murphy gives that especially from FB.

juvenal

High&Low wrote: »

Why drop Girvan Dempsey for Ireland's worst performing player against the French?

That's a matter of opinion; Murphy isn't a winger, that's obvious. What did Dempsey offer going forward that day? Nothing. Granted he's solid defensively and his attacking has improved, but if we insist on playing people out of position then they're going to have mistakes. Just take Trimble in the WC against France. Murphy is inclined to drift into the full back slot when Dempsey is caught out, see the first try for an example; that's why Leamy was left mismatched against Clerc.

My point is that people should be rotated in and out for the remaining three games; the Grand Slam is over, and this team should be aiming higher than just another Triple Crown. There's 27 or 28 players that are capable of lining out for Ireland in a test game, so he should be using the home nations games to give everyone a run, instead of waiting until an Argentina/Japan tour to send out fifteen players who are never going to play together when it matters.

Snickers Man

What Murphy deserves to be shot for was kicking the ball away with time up Ireland in possession and France on the rack. Doesn't this man know the rules of the game?

It hurts me to say it because I have always admired his running skills but he was headless against France.

He was as much to blame for that Irish defeat as Tana Umaga was for New Zealand's semifinal defeat to France in 1999.

ie not totally but largely

juvenal

Snickers Man wrote: »

What Murphy deserves to be shot for was kicking the ball away with time up Ireland in possession and France on the rack. Doesn't this man know the rules of the game?

It hurts me to say it because I have always admired his running skills but he was headless against France.

He was as much to blame for that Irish defeat as Tana Umaga was for New Zealand's semifinal defeat to France in 1999.

ie not totally but largely

I agree to a point, it was a stupid error that you can't excuse a professional sportsman from, and it appears that it cost us a real chance of winning the game.

As O'Gara said last week, the first mistake was putting the ball wide, when it should have stayed with the forwards. I believe I heard either ROG or O'Driscoll subsequently that they thought there was still time left when the ball went to touch, but I can't remember where I read/heard this.

I'd still give Murphy the 15 jersey this Saturday and tell him to go and play rugby.

Irish test players? (In no order of preference)

Fullbacks: Murphy/Dempsey
Wingers: Bowe/Kearney/Horgan
Centres: Trimble/Darcy/O’Driscoll
Halfbacks: Wallace/O’Gara/Stringer/Reddan

Props: Hayes/Buckley/Horan
Hookers: Jackman/Best
Locks: O’Callaghan/O’Driscoll/Cullen/O’Connell
Flankers: Wallace/Leamy/Jennings/Gleeson/Easterby
Number 8’s: Heaslip/Leamy

Outside of this pool you’ve the likes of Donnacha Ryan (Munster), Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster), Jonathan Sexton (Leinster), Cian Healy (Leinster), Niall O’Connor (Ulster) all who are pushing through the ranks with their respective provinces.

Is it too much to ask for some genuine rotation, rather than the enforced changes we’ve had to date?

Punchbowl

I do not agree. Murphy has not earned the right to be in the 15, esp as it would require dropping a player who, as well as having the safest hands in the squad, is also capable of making intelligent rugby decisions. Murphy makes decisons too, however, they are generally the wrong ones. Kicking the ball away against France is a classic example. Had it off paid off he'd be feted as a hero, but it was still a naive and stupid thing to do, and the thing is, he tries something like this is every game.. Why are we so intent on giving him chances?

jdivision

Cian Healy isn't ready for international level I think.

Stealdo

Juvenal - as you say Geordan Murphy's contribution to Ireland's defeat in Paris is a matter of opinion. In mine he was largely to blame for the loss, and I cannot agree that covering for Dempsey was a contribution. He drifted out of position, not into cover. It's now time for people to realise that Murphy has never offered anything in Irish shirt. The simple fact is that one or two very occassional cameos aside he has never shone in an Irish shirt, and cannot continue to live off an over-hyped reputation that he seems to have gotten from Sky. I mean, the "George Best of Rugby" that is a laughable comparison. We constantly hear about what Murphy can do, but I can't remember the last time people were talking about things that he actually did rather than hypothetical brilliance and reports of brilliance in training.

Anyway, Murphy rant aside, I would like to see O'Sullivan look to the future now. I don't believe with the games to come that there is any hope of Ireland being in a position to win on points diff, and barring a bizarre set of results that would see England, France and Wales all end up with 3 wins the championship is therefore gone. It's now time if ever there was one to look to the future. This doesn't mean being stupid about anything, you would still want to keep the spine of a decent team, but the team I would like to see EOS send out the next day would be along the lines of:

1. Buckley
2. Jackman
3. Hayes
4. DOC
5. Caldwell
6. Leamy
7. Jennings <---Edit as Jennings injury slipped my mind - Johnny O'Conner is the only option in keeping with my philosophy
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan
10. ROG
11. Fitzgerald
12. Trimble
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

I'll accept that this looks pretty radical so here's the justification...
Buckley I know is a tight head, but he can cover both positions and I think at this point that Marcus Horan has become a liability. If we win one more turnover only to find Marcus standing in the first receiver spot I think I'll just give up. I accept that he is skilled for a prop but we need props who will do their primary job first, not put themselves into positions where they are actually just in the way.
Caldwell is the other strange pick and to be honest it's a little risky, but I think it's time to take a few chances on bringing these guys through. He's looked pretty good in the ML this season and deserves a shot. I'd have Cullen on the bench for some impact. This might be seen as harsh on MOD who had his best game for Ireland coming on last week, but in fairness if I was looking for consistant impact I'd pick Cullen fairly easily, and with O'Connell coming back I think MOD is likely to drop down the pecking order out of contention. I prefer the option of starting with the inexperienced forward and being in a position to bring on an impact sub in a tight game, than starting with the experienced guy and being afraid to make a change.
I think most would be happy enough with Jennings at this point. Harsh on Wallace I think, but if last week didn't prove that we need a proper 7 then I don't know what would. Wallace would be pushing Leamy for the 6 shirt.

In the backs we're keeping the 10, 12, 13 axis and going for broke with the back three. I think it's clear from above that I wouldn't have Murphy in Dublin let alone Croke Park. Because we're looking to the future Kearney gets FB ahead of Dempsey and Fitzgerald and Bowe get their chances. This is massively risky, but if you're not going to do it against Scotland there's not point in even thinking about it against Wales or England.

on the bench we'd have:
16 Best (Flannery back and challenging for 2 when fit again)
17 Healy (needs to be blooded slowly and bulk up but would eventually take over from Buckley at 1 with Buckley moving to tighthead)
18 Cullen (obviously with POC to come back this whole areas gets a shake up)
19 Wallace (nice impact sub)
20 Stringer
21 Wallace (would like to see Sexton in here when fit again)
22 Horgan (Offers a lot of cover - although some of it very dubious)

<----Runs for cover.

Ulstermell0

15. Girvan Dempsey
14. Horgan
13. Brian O’Driscoll
12. Andrew Trimble
11. Tommy Bowe
10. Ronan O’Gara
9. Eoin Reddan
1. Marcus Horan
2. Rory Best
3. John Hayes
4. Donnacha O’Callaghan
5. Mick O’Driscoll
6. Denis Leamy
7. David Wallace
8. Jamie Heaslip

Replacements: Bernard Jackman, Buckley, Simon Easterby, Paul O'Connell, Geordan Murphy, Paddy Wallace, Peter Stringer.


Best is better at the line out, ok not by a massive amount, but this is massively more important than play in the loose.
The total absence of Bowe so far - one ofthe most glaring mistakes of this 6N.
DOC needs to prove he can do it in green as well as red.

Crash

Niall O'Connor's been called up to the training squad because of an injury to murphy - no idea what the story is there.

Jennings is injured at the moment, so not sure how much a part people can expect him to play even if given the chance.

Amz

Murphy picked up a knock in Leicester's game over the weekend.

juvenal

Given that Jennings was injured for the Cardiff game, I think we can safely say that he won't be featuring in any capacity this weekend, even if we wanted him to!

I see young O'Connor has been called into the squad, but I feel this is more a making-up-the-drill-numbers-and-welcome-this-is-what-the-Ireland-setup-is-like move

bbc.com/sport wrote:

Murphy's injury is not thought to be serious although he may sit out Monday's training at UCD's indoor arena.

davyjose

redmca wrote: »

For the same reason that France select Heymans. He may make the odd mistake, but he also makes things happen.

Yes, like 3 french tries

juvenal

davyjose wrote: »

Yes, like 3 french tries

I laughed when I read this, nicely witty ; but on a serious note, it's lunacy to even try and suggest that Murphy was at fault for three French tries. :rolleyes:

jdivision

Stealdo wrote: »

7. Jennings <---Edit as Jennings injury slipped my mind - Johnny O'Conner is the only option in keeping with my philosophy
.

Johnny O'Connor from Connacht? Ah come on. Mr penalty machine.

davyjose

juvenal wrote: »

I laughed when I read this, nicely witty ; but on a serious note, it's lunacy to even try and suggest that Murphy was at fault for three French tries. :rolleyes:

Ah I know - tongue in cheek , but I'm just beginning to think he's more trouble than he's worth. He's savage for Leicester but I haven't seen him do it for Ireland since before he broke his leg (with one or two exceptions).
I think as well that Dempsey doesn't get the praise he deserves. I think he's Ireland's most consistent player.

Stev_o

Jesus Christ Murphy really is condemned to suffer under EOS until he finishes. He's a FB who's a playmaker he is not a cutting edge winger if he was Leicester would play him there. FFS lets put Dempsey on the wing and see what people say afterwards.

redmca

Stev_o wrote: »

FFS lets put Dempsey on the wing and see what people say afterwards.

Exactly !!! Murphy has suffered by playing out of position. Put him at FB against Scotland (However, I bet my house he doesn't make the first 15 !!). Other sides (except Italy & Scotland) are experimanting / rotating in order to develop a larger pool of experienced players. If EOS had that spirit of expansion, his back 3 would be Bowe, Kearney, and Murphy at FB.

davyjose

Stev_o wrote: »

Jesus Christ Murphy really is condemned to suffer under EOS until he finishes. He's a FB who's a playmaker he is not a cutting edge winger if he was Leicester would play them there. FFS lets put Dempsey on the wing and see what people say afterwards.

Very good point.

MikeHoncho

Murphy:rolleyes:

People seriously need to get over this. He has never performed to the best of his ability at international level and he has been given ample opportunity to do so. Dempsey on the other hand always performs to the best of his ability. If I was a coach making the team selection id prefer to know that I will get a solid performance out of my fullback than a 50/50 chance between utter brilliance or complete catastrophy. Also comparing Murphy to Heymans is a joke as has been witnesed on a fair few occasions for club and country.

Erin Go Brath

MikeHoncho wrote: »

Murphy:rolleyes:

People seriously need to get over this. He has never performed to the best of his ability at international level and he has been given ample opportunity to do so. Dempsey on the other hand always performs to the best of his ability. If I was a coach making the team selection id prefer to know that I will get a solid performance out of my fullback than a 50/50 chance between utter brilliance or complete catastrophy. Also comparing Murphy to Heymans is a joke as has been witnesed on a fair few occasions for club and country.

Agree 100%. Dempsey is fb on merit, Murphys has been given a fair crack of the whip and hasn't done it for my money anyway. I don't think he even deserves to be on the wing with the talent we have available. Bowe, Kearney and a fit again Shaggy are all in the running for the 2 wing spots. I'd like to see Bowe, and Kearney given the spots and see what they do with them. I'd have Murphy on the bench, as he can fill in for a few roles, but he wouldn't be in my starting XV. Bottom line, yes he's been great for club, but he hasn't done it for country bar the odd sporadic bit of magic. The cons outweigh the pros.

juvenal

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Agree 100%. Dempsey is fb on merit, Murphys has been given a fair crack of the whip and hasn't done it for my money anyway. I don't think he even deserves to be on the wing with the talent we have available. Bowe, Kearney and a fit again Shaggy are all in the running for the 2 wing spots. I'd like to see Bowe, and Kearney given the spots and see what they do with them. I'd have Murphy on the bench, as he can fill in for a few roles, but he wouldn't be in my starting XV. Bottom line, yes he's been great for club, but he hasn't done it for country bar the odd sporadic bit of magic. The cons outweigh the pros.

It's an interesting point, but has he ever really had a fair crack of the whip in the full back position?

I'm a fan of both, and in fairness to Dempsey he's almost reinvented his game in the past few seasons. I feel that Murphy has never had 4 or 5 games in a row at fullback, whereas Girv has had several runs like this.

Dempsey will be 33 at the start of October, Murphy will be 30 in April. In 80 caps, Dempsey has scored 95 points; in 54 caps, Murphy has scored 98 points. Granted Murphy has had more starts per caps than Dempsey, but he's never had a good run at the 15 shirt, except perhaps for before RWC 2003, and then Scotland happened.

All I'm saying is what's the harm in changing it up a little? I'm not interested in results for the next three games (although three wins would be nice ), but more concerned about performance.

Sangre

MikeHoncho wrote: »

Murphy:rolleyes:

People seriously need to get over this. He has never performed to the best of his ability at international level and he has been given ample opportunity to do so. Dempsey on the other hand always performs to the best of his ability. If I was a coach making the team selection id prefer to know that I will get a solid performance out of my fullback than a 50/50 chance between utter brilliance or complete catastrophy. Also comparing Murphy to Heymans is a joke as has been witnesed on a fair few occasions for club and country.

Even 50/50 is generous to Murphy. Murphy is in the Irish setup so much for the same reason JOC was in it, Sky Sports.

15. Dempsey
14. Kearney
13. BOD
12. Trimble
11. Bowe
10. ROG
9. Reddan
1.Buckley (I too just want to see the back of Horan)
2. Jackman
3. hayes
4. DOC
5. MOD (would normally pick Cullen but I think mod deserves it after the French game)
6. Leamy
7. Gleeson (I think with Heaslip at 8 we don't need wallace's running as much)
8. Heaslip

Bench:
Horan(maybe put on after 60 and switch Buckley to tighthead), Best, Cullen, D Wallace, Stringer, A Dunne, Murphy

No point picking Wallace, he is just wasting space on the bench. lets look to someone with at least some future.

phog

MikeHoncho wrote: »

Murphy:rolleyes:

People seriously need to get over this. He has never performed to the best of his ability at international level and he has been given ample opportunity to do so. Dempsey on the other hand always performs to the best of his ability. If I was a coach making the team selection id prefer to know that I will get a solid performance out of my fullback than a 50/50 chance between utter brilliance or complete catastrophy. Also comparing Murphy to Heymans is a joke as has been witnesed on a fair few occasions for club and country.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Agree 100%. Dempsey is fb on merit, Murphys has been given a fair crack of the whip and hasn't done it for my money anyway. I don't think he even deserves to be on the wing with the talent we have available. Bowe, Kearney and a fit again Shaggy are all in the running for the 2 wing spots. I'd like to see Bowe, and Kearney given the spots and see what they do with them. I'd have Murphy on the bench, as he can fill in for a few roles, but he wouldn't be in my starting XV. Bottom line, yes he's been great for club, but he hasn't done it for country bar the odd sporadic bit of magic. The cons outweigh the pros.

You're not comparing like with like as most of Murphy's poor games have been when he was selected on the wing which is out of position for him, I think that Murphy as fullback has more to offer than Dempsey, that being said I'd start Dempsey on Saturday.

EGB - Looking at the Leinster/Cardiff match on Saturday I don't think I'd class Horgan as fit and if he is then he needs to show a bit willingness to get stuck in. I thought he was very poor on Saturday.

Nukem

In light of some really good developments over the weekend f*ck the whole lot out the window and start again fresh.

Luke Fitzgerald showed class at 15, Paddy Wallace I always thought would make a better 1st centre, Caldwell again looked good. Donnacha Ryan has proven his point god knows how many times, Cian Healy on the bench perhaps. Buckley and Hayes both playing, very hard to see any fronmt row coping with that brute strength. Bowe and Trimble are becoming ever prominent and O'Connor playing in good out-half position.

1.Buckley
2.Jackman
3.Hayes
4.DOC
5.Caldwell
6.Leamy
7.Wallace
8.Heaslip
9.Reddan
10.ROG
11.Bowe
12.Wallace
13.Trimble
14.Kearney
15.Fitzgerald

Subs.
Horan,Best,Cullen,Quinlan,Stringer,BOD,Dempsey

quagmire69

sick of the whole murphy debate but he has performed for ireland at international level. He played brilliant at fb against australia and south africa in 2006 autumn internationals along with neil best. Both were the only players dropped for the next six nations for no reason at all (don't give me this form bull crap). since then we have played well in two games (england and italy last year). Eddie has done a fantastic job wrecking these two guys confidence. They were the two best players against SA and AUS. Confidence is everything to a player and its no wonder both started to spiral out of form after they were dropped for the old reliables.


Anyway here is my team (lookin to the future with a few old lads)
15 - kearney
11 & 14 - Bowe and Horgan (horgan for some experience in back 3)
13 - trimble
12 - BOD
10 - Rog
9 - Reddan

1 & 3 - Buckley and Horan
2 - Jackman
4 & 5 - DOC and Cullen
6 - Leamy
7 - Gleeson
8 - Heaslip

16 - Hayes (Healy next year)
17 - Best
18 - M o Driscoll
19 - Wallace
20 - stringer
21 - Dunne
22 - fitzgerald ( best position in the centre imo)

Would love to see somebody else start a six nations match at 10 other than o'gara.
On that note does any body know when was the last time we started a six nations match with someone besides O'Gara or Humphries at 10?

Podge_irl

juvenal wrote: »

It's an interesting point, but has he ever really had a fair crack of the whip in the full back position?

I'm a fan of both, and in fairness to Dempsey he's almost reinvented his game in the past few seasons. I feel that Murphy has never had 4 or 5 games in a row at fullback, whereas Girv has had several runs like this.

Murphy was full back for the entire 2006 Six Nations, though how he kept the position after the disaster in Paris I'll never know. EOS has kept faith with him far longer than I would have. He's simply not the same player since he broke his legs. He's not that quick (slower than Dempsey by a reasonable margin) and loses the ball in contact a lot and is prone is ridiculous errors. I genuinely don't see the argument for his inclusion. His try scoring rate for Leicester has plummeted as well, he's scored one try in 14 games this season.

He played brilliant at fb against australia and south africa in 2006 autumn internationals along with neil best.

Murphy was only a sub in the SA game (he came on with 13 minutes to go) and had a complete armchair ride against Australia.

I would really love someone to tell me the last great thing Murphy did. There was the up-and-under against Wales in last years 6 Nations, what else? Cause I can mention several ****-ups.


Anyway, I would like to see this

15. Dempsey (don't want a complete inexperience back 3, but Kearney would move here after the 6 Nations)
14. Kearney
13. Trimble
12. O'Driscoll
11. Bowe
10. O'Gara
9. Reddan
8. Heaslip
7. Wallace (though I would want a look at Jennings here when fit)
6. Leamy
5. O'Driscoll (Cullen if he wasn't injured)
4. O'Callaghan
3. Hayes
2. Jackman
1. Horan (no one else really).

16. Best
17. Buckley
18. Caldwell (don't see much point having Mal on the bench, start or out of 22)
19. Gleeson (again would have Jennings if he wasn't injured. Not entirely convinced Gleeson is up to internationals anymore, but not sure who else to pick here)
20. Stringer
21. Dunne (EOS clearly has no faith in Wallace as an out-half, and Dunne has been playing reasonably well. He likely won't see game time anyway...)
22. Horgan/Murphy

Erin Go Brath

phog wrote: »

EGB - Looking at the Leinster/Cardiff match on Saturday I don't think I'd class Horgan as fit and if he is then he needs to show a bit willingness to get stuck in. I thought he was very poor on Saturday.

Yeh, probably needs more game time before he starts. Bowe and Kearney should get the nod if form is anything to go by. I can see Bowe been left out, and Murphy in though. EOS says he'll pick the form players, but proceeds to do nothing of the sort. Thats the most frustrating thing about him. We can assume Murphy will start on the wing.

buck65

Coming from a biased Muinster fan , just wondering how close Ian Dowling was to making the Irish panel before his injury? I have been very impressed with his workrate and pace this season and on Friday night he did ok for his return match.

juvenal

Podge_irl wrote: »

He's simply not the same player since he broke his legs. He's not that quick (slower than Dempsey by a reasonable margin)

That's a point. I was amazed at how easily Horgan (not the fastest man on the planet!) outran him in the chase down towards the end of the Leinster-Leicester HEC game in the RDS last Autumn.

juvenal

Just saw this - maybe Gerry Thornley was reading the boards yesterday!:D

The Irish Times - Sport - Tuesday 19 February 2008 wrote:

On Rugby: Perceived wisdom has it that "experimenting" or "rotating" squads is not as conducive to winning as having a settled side. Yet, while the Six Nations' table is admittedly still in its formative stages, the two squads which have rotated the most thus far lead the way with two wins apiece.

Having rather daringly, if cleverly, opted for 13 Ospreys in his first selection against England, Wales coach Warren Gatland surprised many by making three changes for the win over Scotland, and a further six changes for Saturday's game at home to Italy. Nothing raised eyebrows more than the decision to promote the experienced Llanelli pair of Dwayne Peel and Stephen Jones and move Mike Phillips and James Hook to the bench.

There is still deep suspicion of rotational selection policies, and were Wales to come unstuck against Italy no doubt this will be the first stick to beat Gatland over the head with. Mr Tinkerman. However, as one Irish player confided: "That's clever. It keeps the squad fresh and motivated."

Only time will tell whether Gatland's way is the best way, and besides, as Eddie O'Sullivan is wont to say, this is not an exact science.

But does it necessarily follow that rotating players militates against winning? After all, in an era when use of replacements has never been more pronounced, the need for 22 players to seamlessly fit into playing patterns has never been more acute. Wales exchanged their halves with half an hour to go against Scotland, and can always do so again this Saturday.

Gatland sees benefits in Hook watching and learning from the bench, and cited the Ronan O'Gara-David Humphreys rivalry from his time as Irish coach as an example. "O'Gara learnt from Humphreys by watching him play and sitting on the sidelines. Sometimes that experience can be extremely beneficial," said Gatland.

"A problem I had with Humphreys and O'Gara was that the media in Ireland built it up into an either-or, which was not fair on them and did not reflect how it was for me. When you have guys like that, you can use them both, as we did with our two outhalves last Saturday (against Scotland)."

Indeed, in the media rush to hail a new kid on the block, we are perhaps too keen in encouraging coaches to ditch the older player who had been in situ. It's partly out of restlessness, a boredom thing. But why jettison or make little use of a player with the experience of a Humphreys or Jones?

True enough, having granted O'Gara his debut against Scotland eight years ago, well though the young newcomer played, Gatland brought Humphreys on in the 51st minute to steer Ireland to a 44-22 win with a 14-point haul. He did it again in the 62nd minute in Paris when Humphreys kicked eight points, including the winning penalty.

Thereafter, in the remaining 14 games of his reign, Gatland started O'Gara eight times and Humphreys six, while one replaced the other in eight games. Both were very much part of the scene.

O'Sullivan first went with Humphreys, before alternating between the two for extended runs. Yet the punditry wisdom in Ireland was that O'Gara suffered for not having a steady run in the number 10 jersey and whenever he was replaced by Humphreys. Ultimately that thinking won out, and the jersey was pretty much the younger man's from the 2003 World Cup on.

Humphreys was in the 22 for the next 25 matches, but started only four of them, the autumn games at home to the US and Romania, and the two Tests in Japan in 2005.

In his last three Six Nations' tournaments, four of Humphreys' five appearances off the bench amounted to eight minutes, give or take a few seconds. Mid-way through the 2006 Six Nations, having not seen a single minute, Humphreys resolved to retire from Test rugby. Who knows, had Ireland made more use of him in those three years he may well have been an invaluable back-up to O'Gara at the recent World Cup.

Even if you also accept that the remarkably consistent Girvan Dempsey is more worthy of the number 15 jersey, might Ireland also have made more use of Geordan Murphy in the last few years, as O'Sullivan did in the 2006 autumn series, when Dempsey and Murphy started at fullback, in turn, for the wins over South Africa and Australia?

Murphy had been the first choice fullback in the Six Nations of 2003, and the Triple Crown campaigns of '05 and '06. But since the win over the Wallabies in November '06 - when he and Denis Hickie scored the tries - he has started in seven of Ireland's 16 Tests. Only three, though, were in his more favoured and effective fullback role.

The enigma wrapped in a riddle that is Murphy was exercising the mind, yet again, of Stuart Barnes during his commentary on Sunday of London Irish v Leicester - when the boot of Eoghan Hickey propelled Irish to victory. Barnes deduced that Murphy is "a great player" in a Leicester environment, where his abilities are given full rein, but has become merely "a good player" with Ireland.

The argument for making more use of Murphy is arguably greater now given the reduced threat in midfield and on the wing following the loss to retirement of Hickie's exceptional pace and finishing (liable to become even more appreciated in years to come). Where else can the Irish backline create openings? You think of Murphy hitting the line, putting players into space and running those trailers as O'Driscoll looks to offload.

Alas, that said, there have been too many missed tackles over the last year or so and, given his treatment, it's understandable that his confidence isn't the same with Ireland. Thus it will be no surprise if Shane Horgan returns at Murphy's expense when the team is announced today. Even so, you can't help but think that an exceptional talent is not being fully utilised.

The club game has already shown us that "rotating" players - as opposed to "dropping" them - is the way to go. Maybe, as a means of freshening things up and maximising the talents at one's disposal, it is increasingly true of Test rugby as well.

Maybe it's time to ditch perceived wisdom.

bleg

don't know why people are putting cullen in there, if we're going on form DOC MOD and MOK have played 2 good games.

juvenal

Due to overnight frost Ireland's training session and squad announcement ahead of this Saturday's Six Nations encounter with Scotland at Croke Park has been delayed.

Coach Eddie O'Sullivan took training from 10.30am this morning and the team announcement will now take place at the team hotel at 1pm.

juvenal

Scotland skipper Jason White will miss Saturday's RBS Six Nations game with Ireland in Dublin after failing to recover from concussion.

Scrum-half Mike Blair will lead the team at Croke Park and his half-back partner will be Chris Paterson. Paterson moves from the wing, with Dan Parks dropped to the bench, while Rory Lamont and Simon Webster also return.

Alasdair Strokosch will start his first Test at blind-side flanker and Scott MacLeod replaces Jim Hamilton at lock.

Coach Frank Hadden has yet to finalise the rest of his back row as he waits to see if flanker John Barclay has recovered sufficiently from an injured hand.

Barclay, Kelly Brown, Allister Hogg and Ross Rennie are all in contention for the open-side and number eight positions, with the final decision expected on Wednesday.

White suffered a knock to the head during the defeat by Wales and was replaced by Hogg on 32 minutes.

Scotland team:

15. Southwell (Edinburgh)
14. Walker (Ospreys)
13. Webster (Edinburgh)
12. Henderson (Glasgow)
11. R Lamont (Sale)
10. Paterson (Gloucester)
9. Blair (Edinburgh, capt)
1. Jacobsen (Edinburgh)
2. Ford (Edinburgh)
3. E Murray (Northampton)
4. Hines (Perpignan)
5. MacLeod (Scarlets)
6. Strokosch (Gloucester)
7. TBC
8. TBC

White is a big loss for them.

Stealdo

I think Thornley's point is less to do with the Dempsey vs Murphy question and more to do with the idea that Ireland are not using the players at their disposal to the maximum advantage. Both are in decline at this stage, the point he's making is more that it has always been a question of either or, rather than both when it comes to use of the squad. Tony Ward makes similar soundings in the Indo today. More and more international teams are looking at things like this as an opportunity rather than a selection question. You used one for 50 minutes and the other for 30. Which way around is dictated by the style of game you want to play (so somewhat depends on the opposition). This is in contrast to EOS's philiosophy of picking a team for 80 minutes, and using the replacements bench to cover injury. That is why he picked Horgan rather than Bowe for instance last time out, because he covers more potential injuries. Other international couches might have started Bowe and kept Murphy on the bench to change the style of full back play.

One thing I would disagree with him completely on is the notion of Murphy hitting the line and putting players in space etc, he just hasn't ever done it for Ireland in his games at FB. For those who think he has never shone for Ireland because he never got a consistant run in the team, just look at Thornley's article - he started all 5 six nations games at full back in 2005 and 2006. Now ask yourself why it seems like he's never got a run there?

juvenal

Stealdo wrote: »

I think Thornley's point is less to do with the Dempsey vs Murphy question and more to do with the idea that Ireland are not using the players at their disposal to the maximum advantage. Both are in decline at this stage, the point he's making is more that it has always been a question of either or, rather than both when it comes to use of the squad. Tony Ward makes similar soundings in the Indo today. More and more international teams are looking at things like this as an opportunity rather than a selection question. You used one for 50 minutes and the other for 30. Which way around is dictated by the style of game you want to play (so somewhat depends on the opposition). This is in contrast to EOS's philiosophy of picking a team for 80 minutes, and using the replacements bench to cover injury. That is why he picked Horgan rather than Bowe for instance last time out, because he covers more potential injuries. Other international couches might have started Bowe and kept Murphy on the bench to change the style of full back play.

I agree; imagine O'Gara was injured in Ravenhill or Bourgoin before the World Cup, there's no credible replacement waiting in the wings that any of us would be comfortable with coming in to run the show. It was much more competitive when both him and Humphrey's were both in a position to slot into the outhalf spot in a moment's notice.

juvenal

Ireland team to face Scotland in Croke Park, Saturday 23 February 2008

15. Girvan Dempsey
14. Tommy Bowe
13. Brian O'Driscoll
12. Andrew Trimble
11. Rob Kearney
10. Ronan O'Gara
9. Eoin Reddan

1. Marcus Horan
2. Bernard Jackman
3. John Hayes
4. Donnacha O'Callaghan
5. Mick O'Driscoll
6. Denis Leamy
7. David Wallace
8. Jamie Heaslip

Replacements: Rory Best, Tony Buckley, Paul O'Connell, Simon Easterby, Peter Stringer, Paddy Wallace, Shane Horgan.


Personally I'm pleased to see Jackman, Mick O'Driscoll, Tommy Bowe and Jamie Heaslip all starting. I've been very critical of Bowe in the past, but I've seen a good bit of him lately and he's been excellent. Fully deserved IMO.

O'Kelly's days are over, or at least they should be. He's been outstanding, and with 91 caps can be counted as one of the true greats. He's put in some massive performances after a lot of criticism when people, including myself, thought his number was up. But I think this is it for him, and no shame in that at all.

EdgarAllenPoo

Would have been nice to see some experimentation in the squad but I guess having Mick O'Driscoll and Tommy Bowe start is as good as it gets. I still have no idea why Easterby is even on the bench.

I notice Geordan Murohy isn't in the 22, I don't see him getting another look in for quite a while after the France match.

juvenal

GDM wrote: »

Would have been nice to see some experimentation in the squad but I guess having Mick O'Driscoll and Tommy Bowe start is as good as it gets. I still have no idea why Easterby is even on the bench.

I think with EOS this is as good as it gets with experimentation.

athtrasna

I see Tony Buckley has been robbed, again!! He deserves a start, his form for Munster and Ireland (in the few minutes EOS ever puts him in for) have been outstanding IMO.

EdgarAllenPoo

Have Johnny O'Connor and Alan Quinlan fallen off the face off the Earth? Why is Easterby still being picked ahead of them, Paddy Wallace is in a similar situation. It negates the idea of subs when they can't be used for fear off them having a detramental affect on performance.

Stealdo

Don't be fooled by the apparent changes folks. Mal has a stomach bug and Murphy picked up that injury at the weekend. The fact that neither are in the 22 is not EOS's MO when it comes to dropping players, they go to the bench for a while first to soften the blow (take a bow Simon).

Going back to the point of the Thornley article, take a look at those replacements, who there would you say is an "impact" sub? O'Connell obviously, but he's only there because of a lack of match fitness, Buckley maybe, but he's unknown at international level, and at a stretch Horgan, but again he's there because of match fitness. The positions you want to be able to change the game from you can't i.e. Stringer and Wallace, neither offers you anything in terms of game breaking. Easterby and Best the same but less pivotal roles.

Don't think for a second that if O'Connell and Horgan were fit that the two 'changes' would be in there, they'd be two more guys on the bench not being used.

juvenal

athtrasna wrote: »

I see Tony Buckley has been robbed, again!! He deserves a start, his form for Munster and Ireland (in the few minutes EOS ever puts him in for) have been outstanding IMO.

According to BBC. . .

Shannon's giant prop Tony Buckley is still harbouring a thumb injury so Ulster's Bryan Young remains with the squad, as does Luke Fitzgerald, who is on standby after skipper Brian O'Driscoll's calf tightened up during training.

EdgarAllenPoo

I read the thing about Buckley on irishrugby.ie, I haven't seen enough of Young to comment but anything new and progressive is a good thing. It's unfortunate for Fitzgerald's development that the only way he can get game time is if BOD is injured. I would have had him in for Trimble.

Timothy Bryce

I can see why Wallace was selected - he came off the bench with a good display on Friday (albeit against pathetic opposition)

He's probably included because he can play OH & IC and as such will offer good cover in the midfield

The rest of the selection does it's usual best to p*ss me off to an incredible degree.

Where's Bob Casey (great performances week in week out for LI)? An out and out 7 (Gleeson, Jennings)?

Rant over.

***Prepares for flames over Paddy Wallace comments***

Beanmachine

Don't agree with the fitzgerald comment above to be honest. I am a leinster fan and was at the Cardiff match last saturday night and saw his try at the end but to put him in ahead of trimble is too much too soon he needs tests under his belt i agree but he still has plenty of time on his side and they will come.

Finally Bowe gets his chance i never thought he would but now he can prove if he can really do it when it matters on the big stage he's in fine form so i believe he can and hope he can.

Overall happy enough with the selection.

MikeHoncho

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

The rest of the selection does it's usual best to p*ss me off to an incredible degree.

Where's Bob Casey (great performances week in week out for LI)? An out and out 7 (Gleeson, Jennings)?

Rant over.

You expect players not included in the training squad to be selected?

I see Tony Buckley has been robbed, again!! He deserves a start, his form for Munster and Ireland (in the few minutes EOS ever puts him in for) have been outstanding IMO.

Why should Eddie pick him ahead of the 2 players that are ahead of him at his province as well. Will you be hurling abuse at Kidney come the next round of HEC?

People just seem to be giving out for the sake of it now. Looks like Eddie is damned no matter what he does in some peoples eyes.

This is the team we wanted. Really looking forward to seeing them perform.

EdgarAllenPoo

Can someone remind me, is Nick Kennedy still eligible for Ireland or has he had a full England call-up? I would love to see Casey and Kennedy in the second row for Ireland.

Amz

Ah now Mike, don't ya know that some people out there think the whole team should be made up of Munster players! Play 3 props and be damned!



Hope this team does well, I want to see some decent rugby this Saturday.

EdgarAllenPoo

I think you'll be disappointed on that front, unless you really like your forward play. Ireland v Scotland is usually all about the forwards and even with Bowe it's not like we can expect a flashy France-like performance from Ireland.