SBPost: Dempsey drops bus privatisation plan

monument

Dempsey drops bus privatisation plan
17 February 2008 By Niamh Connolly, Political Reporter
The government is shelving plans to privatise bus services in Dublin.

In a departure from the privatisation policy of the Fianna Fail-Progressive Democrats government, Noel Dempsey, the Minister for Transport, said a public transport bus service was the most practical option, ‘‘because of the growth of the city’s population and because of the disruption that will take place due to the Metro’’.

The previous government’s plan to privatise 15 per cent of new routes and offer subsidies to private operators on non-profitable routes was championed by Mary Harney. But Dempsey said this was ‘‘a different government’’ and ‘‘these are changed circumstances’’.

‘‘Looking forward to the next five to seven years in Dublin, it may not be the best option,” he said. ‘‘The better option, in my view, is to maximise the usefulness of the Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann fleet, to ensure flexibility of services and to change networks around to suit people, rather than the staff.”

However, he added that, if the state company failed to improve its efficiencies, the option of privatisation could be revisited.

So, privatisation falls along with the PDs...

markf909

I heard Mr. Morton on Morning Ireland.

He was very careful about his wording, going on about "peak" time buses and how the private operators were the solution etc.

No mention of off peak, social obligation, sunday services etc, all of the things that put the public in public transport.

paulm17781

If I thought this would make DB any better I'd be happy. It sounds like 'privatization is going badly, let's not do anything more' good oul Dempsey.

bk

I've mixed feelings on this. On the one hand I believe Privatisation can work and it could be more efficient, if we followed the London Bus model.

On the other hand, in typical Irish government ham fisted manner, they weren't following this proven model, instead going for a disjointed and unregulated half attempt, that was always going to fail and leave us with a mess.

Dropping privatisation is preferable to the current mess. At least the 150 new buses can now actually be used and perhaps lots more buses bought and used, along with the port tunnel, etc.

Instead they should focus on the setting up of the DTA and moving Dublin Bus, Dart, etc. under its control. Then perhaps in 10 years, privatisation can be revisited.

AlekSmart

Quote "The government is shelving plans to privatise bus services in Dublin.
"

Lets be clear in our heads about this.
Minister Dempsey appears to be proving to be the most pragmatic holder of this office in recent times.
He has astutely observed that there is no PLAN for Bus based Public Transport Privatization,or indeed for anything to do with the Public Transport.

This was apparent from the very first Bombshell exploded by Seamus Brennan when during a Press Conference he revealed his "Plans" to give 25% of Dublin Bus`s route network to the private sector within 6 months......Seamus got the column inches alright but his senior Civil Servants (once their mouths had closed) then had to open the filing cabinet marked "PLANS" and,surprise surprise,found it resoundingly Empty

Since that glorious era,various Ministers have struggled to keep some sort of adherence to the Harney principle and rather comprehensively failed.

It still remains an unanswered question in my mind as to why,for a considerable amount of time,Government Bus Based Public Transport policy was being devised and spoken upon by a Minister for HEALTH,who was (and IS) coincidentally under huge pressures on HEALTH policy issues.
Despite this Ms Harney at one point publicly threatened to withdraw her party from Government if the Cabinet did not adopt a more robust attitude towards implimenting HER Bus Market "Plans".

I remain uncertain as to what actual difference Mr Dempsey`s Pauline conversion will make.
Most posters on this board,even those least disposed towards Dublin Bus,are aware of the mess which Dublins Public Transport is in.

With a vast number of Agencies jealously guarding their own plots,most of whom are in TOTAL conflict with each other and very little in the way of Regulatory guidance or Policy from Government it has fallen to the likes of Paul Morton and Cora Collins to seize their moment and take to the Courts,a procedure which in itself could prove VERY counter productive and costly,with the only guarantee being a judgement which will cause serious disruption to the end user.

It should be noted that PERFECT Public Transport solutions do not exist anywhere.
The best examples in Europe all feature compromises,with Carrots and Sticks abounding,with Irelands Taxsaver initiatiative being one of the most effective and developed of the Carrots.

However the European "Best Practice" Public Transport models generally operate to that over-riding principle which causes the Irish psyche so much angst and worry......The Greater Good,which when coupled with strong central focused Public Administration gives consistently effective,cheap and reliable solutions to the ever increasing problem of mass public movement......

I however am renting a garrett in Drumcondra to allow me wait for Hell to Freeze over.... :rolleyes:

KC61

The key to this situation (in my opinion) has always been to first of all get the regulatory framework set up correctly and to define performance standards, in terms of schedules, vehicles and targets for all operators.

Once this is done, then the thorny issue of private operators can be addressed through a tendering process, with all operators (including Dublin Bus) required to deliver set targets or face losing individual routes.

The current situation is (as Alek observed) a total mess, and is anything but a level playing field. It is completely focussed on the bureaucracy of licence applications rather than on delivering a high quality network of bus routes that is not designed by individual operators using a set of crayons, but by a central tendering authority, i.e. the DTA.

Victor

‘‘ to change networks around to suit people, rather than the staff.”

Which staff? DoT?

KC61

I think the Minister is basically making the point that I have made above.

At the moment there is no-one focussing on the design of a bus network in Dublin that includes ALL operators. Instead individual operators are designing their own routes, with the result that certain areas are deprived services that they realistically should be getting - such as the entire Swords QBC being deprived the 141, the Lucan QBC being deprived additional services etc.

The whole process has focussed on operator licensing rather than designing a network that meets end user requirements.

paulm17781

Victor wrote: »

Which staff? DoT?

Id say he meant the 4 and the whole "Strike when we don't get our way" attitude.

OTK

markf909 wrote: »

I heard Mr. Morton on Morning Ireland.

He was very careful about his wording, going on about "peak" time buses and how the private operators were the solution etc.

No mention of off peak, social obligation, sunday services etc, all of the things that put the public in public transport.

I believe that additional peak buses are considered loss making by DB on the basis that they lay idle the rest of the day. On this basis, additional peak hour services are regarded as PSO services.

Are profitable and unprofitable routes not equally likely to be tendered out?

Nostradamus

Dublin Bus are a company with a Sword of Damaclies hanging over their heads. There is no way in hell that company will be anything but a mainly obsolete non-entity following the completetion of Transport21. If two Luas lines can take 5 million passengers off them... Then what effect will 2 metro lines, 7 new Luas lines, Underground DART etc have on it. ... Obliteration of most of their customer base and I have no faith in their unions and management looking for a way of dealing with life post T21.

What happens DB matters not really, they are facing near total extinction. The bus will be a minor player in Dublin's transport future and should be viewed as a stop gap between the old Dublin tram system and Transport 21. A 50 year filler granted, but a filler nonetheless.

icdg

I wouldn't write off Dublin Bus so easily. London has a huge (comparatively to what Dublin will have) Underground system, the Docklands Light Railway, Croydon Tramlink, what was Network South East, Crossrail on the way (sometime)...

And yet, London Buses is triving and no body is suggesting it will be going the way of the dinosaur anytime soon. Granted (before anyone points it out) it has a population seven times the size of Dublin. It also has a rail network far greater than seven times the size of the proposed metro and the upgraded Irish Rail system...

bk

icdg wrote: »

And yet, London Buses is triving and no body is suggesting it will be going the way of the dinosaur anytime soon. Granted (before anyone points it out) it has a population seven times the size of Dublin. It also has a rail network far greater than seven times the size of the proposed metro and the upgraded Irish Rail system...

True, but they actually innovated, are efficient and changed with the times.

Interestingly London Bus is actually made up of about 12 private companies and they recently reduced the fare by 10 pence to 90 pence (via smart card).

KC61

Nostradamus wrote: »

Dublin Bus are a company with a Sword of Damaclies hanging over their heads. There is no way in hell that company will be anything but a mainly obsolete non-entity following the completetion of Transport21. If two Luas lines can take 5 million passengers off them... Then what effect will 2 metro lines, 7 new Luas lines, Underground DART etc have on it. ... Obliteration of most of their customer base and I have no faith in their unions and management looking for a way of dealing with life post T21.

What happens DB matters not really, they are facing near total extinction. The bus will be a minor player in Dublin's transport future and should be viewed as a stop gap between the old Dublin tram system and Transport 21. A 50 year filler granted, but a filler nonetheless.

With all due respect, I've seen some nonsenical posts here in the past, but this takes the biscuit.

There will still be huge swathes of Dublin that will be still be reliant on bus services even if everything in Transport 21 gets built, as they will not have any rail based transport nearby. To suggest that the bus will be a minor player is really ignoring that fact.

The bus service in Dublin does, and will continue to, form the backbone of our transport system for many years to come and will do so well after T21 is finished. What is needed is a proper independent regulatory authority (DTA) that will manage the network and design an integrated system of public transport in the cty that meets the end user's needs, and imposes performance targets and standards that must be met, with penalties such as losing the right to operate a route if those targets are not met.

Yes, LUAS has removed some of the customer base, and Dublin Bus have reduced frequency on several routes along the red line in response to that and have redeployed buses elsewhere. Funnily enough, many of the routes alongside the DART line do still carry heavy loadings. In fact Dublin Bus have in the last year introduced the 4/4A along Rock Road to try and assist existing routes that cannot cope!

However, the reality of the situation is that politicians have interfered on numerous occasions to stifle Dublin Bus from changing routes. It was planned to remove the 48a which from Dundrum runs parallel to the Green Luas line to the city. However Tom Kitt intervened and insisted that it should be maintained, despite the fact that the 48A is carrying few if any passengers and the 14/14A and 75 provide an adequate link from Ballinteer to Dundrum.

I'm not sure by the way where you get seven LUAS lines from? Last time I checked there are planned to be only three basic lines, two of which are mainly in place, which will have a variety of extensions:

1) Liffey Junction - Bray
2) Point Depot - Tallaght/Citywest
3) City - Lucan

There's a feasibility study into a LUAS line to Rathfarnham, along a route that for most of the distance has not got the roadspace to fit two bus lanes and two lanes of general traffic, which I have to say does not bode well for that tram route.

icdg

bk wrote: »

True, but they actually innovated, are efficient and changed with the times.

Interestingly London Bus is actually made up of about 12 private companies and they recently reduced the fare by 10 pence to 90 pence (via smart card).

The services are privately operated (and have been since the late 1980s/early 1990s), but it is under a high degree of public management and control, even more so than an ex- British Rail train operating company. The routes are put out to tender every so often. The timetable, route numbers, fares, ticket machines and ticket types, everything down to what colour the bus should be painted in (red) is determined by London Buses (a subsidary of Transport for London). The private companies supply little more than buses and drivers. That is the model bus privatisation should have been proposed for in Dublin - private sector operation with public sector management of the overall network.

The Oyster card is a big development in London transport, it is the major innovation brought in since TFL took over from LRT and has been a huge success, despite acceptance problems by certain TOCs (that will begin to die following TFL's take over of the North London Railways franchise). On a recent trip to London most people I saw using the buses had an oystercard (being a tourist I had to make do with my One Day Travelcard). The RPA could do worse than adopt it as the model for their new integrated ticketing.

KC61

icdg wrote: »

On a recent trip to London most people I saw using the buses had an oystercard (being a tourist I had to make do with my One Day Travelcard).

I'd have to ask why?

Anyone can have an Oyster card, in fact I think nowadays you would be mad to visit London without investing in one and retaining it for when you go back. The singlemost advantage is that the maximum fare on Oyster is capped at 50p less than the relevant one day travelcard for the zones that you used the Oyster card in.

The other advantage is that they don't expire, so even if you only visit once a year for example any cash loaded onto them is retained and you can top it up whenever you need to.

John R

KC61 wrote: »

I'd have to ask why?

Maybe he needed to use National Rail services as well as tube/bus. Oyster pre-pay is not valid on most of these yet and short period (1,3,7 day) travelcards cannot be put on oyster.

There are also certain instances where you can get cheap combined rail+travelcard fares such as Gatwick-London plus z1-6 day travelcard.

KC61

That's fair enough.

I just thought that I'd make the point that anyone visiting London can and probably should get an Oyster card - some days they might only make a few trips and it does make economic sense to use Oyster rather than paying.

trellheim

just like anyone going to NY tends to come back with a Metrocard in their wallet

bk

icdg wrote: »

The services are privately operated (and have been since the late 1980s/early 1990s), but it is under a high degree of public management and control, even more so than an ex- British Rail train operating company. The routes are put out to tender every so often. The timetable, route numbers, fares, ticket machines and ticket types, everything down to what colour the bus should be painted in (red) is determined by London Buses (a subsidary of Transport for London). The private companies supply little more than buses and drivers. That is the model bus privatisation should have been proposed for in Dublin - private sector operation with public sector management of the overall network.

Yes, couldn't agree more, this is exactly the same we should have implemented here in Dublin.

Ham'nd'egger

John R wrote: »

Maybe he needed to use National Rail services as well as tube/bus. Oyster pre-pay is not valid on most of these yet and short period (1,3,7 day) travelcards cannot be put on oyster.

There are also certain instances where you can get cheap combined rail+travelcard fares such as Gatwick-London plus z1-6 day travelcard.

On my last trip to London in January, the TFL help desk in Heathrow gave me an Oyster to cover Monday afternoon to Friday; I bought a weeks travel on it and it was handy, I must say. I could have purchased a day pass and 3 day on paper, there is now an option to use Oyster for these though for one off tourists/travellers, paper is seems to be the preferred way to go.

KC61

bk wrote: »

Yes, couldn't agree more, this is exactly the same we should have implemented here in Dublin.

I'd still maintain that this can still happen.

What needs to take place first is to establish the DTA and get the standards of operation, vehicles and network design into place within that organisation.

Then and only then should the issue of route tendering start.

If my memory serves me correctly, that is what was done in London also.

Cora Collins claimed at the Oireachtas committee that there were 1600 private buses available for immediate operation in Dublin. However, I suspect that the vast majority of these are nowhere near the same spec as all of the new Dublin Bus vehicles, i.e. low floor accessible. There has to be a level playing field on this - and allowing any sort of bus in is not the answer.

Allowing further private operators into the market before deciding and implementing the legal framework would have been a case of putting the cart before the horse and just making the current mess even worse.

And once the DTA is firmly established and has set targets in place, then it will be perfectly possible for private operators to tender for routes alongside Dublin Bus. If Dublin Bus does not perform to the agreed standards, then by all means it should be penalised by losing the relevant route.

However, given no one has set up the standards yet, I think it is better to get the buses into operation via the incumbent operator (who is best placed to do so) and to stop depriving people of a service.

Nostradamus

KC61 wrote: »

With all due respect, I've seen some nonsenical posts here in the past, but this takes the biscuit..

Really! What, worst than the bloke who wants to flatten Westmorland Street, or the other bloke who said Metros are not built under main streets? You have hurt my feelings.

The bus will be a minor player in Dublin City post T21.

KC61

Nostradamus wrote: »

Really! What, worst than the bloke who wants to flatten Westmorland Street, or the other bloke who said Metros are not built under main streets? You have hurt my feelings.

The bus will be a minor player in Dublin City post T21.

You are still fundamentally wrong.

The bus will still be the dominant form of public transport. There will still be very large parts of Dublin without any form of rail based transport, such as:

Northside: Malahide Road/Coolock/Beaumont/Santry/Finglas/North Blanchardstown

Southside: The entire central area between the green and red lines; Stillorgan Road;

How can you possibly make such a claim? Especially given that along the DART line bus usage is going up rather than down!!!

John R

Nostradamus wrote: »

Really! What, worst than the bloke who wants to flatten Westmorland Street, or the other bloke who said Metros are not built under main streets? You have hurt my feelings.

Are those really the levels of stupid you wish to be competing with?

Nostradamus wrote: »

The bus will be a minor player in Dublin City post T21.

That is simply incorrect. KC61 was correct in his assessment of your post, total garbage.

There will only be a fraction of the population of the city within reach of rail after all the T21 projects are complete and experience elsewhere shows that those types of rail lines only remove a proportion of bus journeys while adding new route possibilities for feeder/link services.

Dublin Bus commissioned a thorough report that deals with this issue.

icdg

KC61 wrote: »

I'd have to ask why?

The aforementioned lack of National Rail* acceptance of Oyster Card (well, depends on TOC) being the main obstacle. Everyone takes the Travelcard...

(*For the pedantics...I still call it British Rail in everyday speech when in England, as does most people I meet that don't work in the transport industry)

John R

KC61 wrote: »

That's fair enough.

I just thought that I'd make the point that anyone visiting London can and probably should get an Oyster card - some days they might only make a few trips and it does make economic sense to use Oyster rather than paying.

Indeed, for most visitors it is by far the best option and the sooner the rail companies are pushed into accepting it the better. It would be great to see a similar product here. However a TfL type authority to co-ordinate all the modes and operators and enforce common standards is far more important for the future of transport in Dublin.


BTW thanks for the PM. I have been busy recently and haven't had the time for bitching about the usual suspects however a chance to bitch in their general direction is too good to miss. I hope you can put something together as well. The more sensible informed contributions the better as I am sure there will be the standard consist of thinly veiled corporate self-interest, NIMBYs, motoring VIPs and nutbars clogging up the inbox. A bit like this place really...;)

bk

KC61 wrote: »

I'd still maintain that this can still happen.

What needs to take place first is to establish the DTA and get the standards of operation, vehicles and network design into place within that organisation.

Then and only then should the issue of route tendering start.

Again, your entire post is very sensible and I agree completely. London has a world class model for public transport and given the similarities with Irish culture, we should be doing everything possible to follow this highly successful model.

The DTA is the key to sorting the mayhem of Dublin's transport problems. Trying to privatise bus services and holding back DB, before the DTA was created, was putting the cart before the horse.

Get the DTA set up, give it the regulatory powers it needs, pull DB, RPA, Dart/Commuter Rail under its control, integrate and standardise those services and then look at gradually privatising routes.

What we need is people with real vision and leadership to drive this.

trellheim

well the RPA are set to morph into the DTA so we're going to see the "leech-farm" approach [ from when Blackadder went to the Doctor, and was told to undergo a course of leeches - the doctor owning a large series of leech-farms ]


"Surely you can't be right I hear in the background " ... well just look at the DCC/DB/RPA hidden war

currently undergoing Panmunjom type talks under the pretext of DCC "Traffic Modelling" while all the while we see plans for a bailey bridge at Hawkins/Marlborough in the next 6 months ... this is going to break out again and soon if you've been following it all.

and why : because the RPA morons persist in putting BX above ground and wrecking the city


this will cause mayhem to DB for years

2 years for BX
2-3 years for Metro N
3-5 years for Interconnector

and that's sequential not probably in parallel that's how long OCS, College Green and SSG are dug up for

and wait it's not over yet here comes Lucan Luas to dig up Dame street for 2 years

Victor

Take it easy folks.

Nostradamus

John R wrote: »

Are those really the levels of stupid you wish to be competing with?



That is simply incorrect. KC61 was correct in his assessment of your post, total garbage.

There will only be a fraction of the population of the city within reach of rail after all the T21 projects are complete and experience elsewhere shows that those types of rail lines only remove a proportion of bus journeys while adding new route possibilities for feeder/link services.

Dublin Bus commissioned a thorough report that deals with this issue.

I have no doubts that by 2020, the areas you and the other CIE employee speak of will have Luas lines. T21 is only stage 1.

LOL, what are you so angry about, no job for junior they way the oulfella sorted you out commrade...:D

KC61

Just for clarification purposes - I am NOT a CIE employee - but I am afraid that your posts are based totally on supposition rather than any facts.

I prefer to make posts here that are based on reality, and common sense rather than sweeping statements that are not.

John R

Nostradamus wrote: »

I have no doubts that by 2020, the areas you and the other CIE employee speak of will have Luas lines. T21 is only stage 1.

Again you are wrong, I am not now a CIE employee nor have I ever been.

I would love to see Dublin covered in rail lines but the FACTS are that there are only a few lines that are currently certain to be completed and another few in early planning stages.

There have been plans, projects and commitments from governments for decades to develop rail in the city and time after time they ended up coming to nothing. In case you hadn't noticed the economy is taking a nosedive, there will not be nearly as much money for big projects as there has been in the recent past.

Nostradamus wrote: »

LOL, what are you so angry about,

Not angry at all, simply correcting the unsubstantiated fantasies that you have posted.

Nostradamus wrote: »

no job for junior they way the oulfella sorted you out commrade...:D

If you can't argue your case without making stupid comments about other poster's families then maybe you should go elsewhere.

markf909

Nostradamus wrote: »

The bus will be a minor player in Dublin City post T21.

Hey Nostradamus, good to have you back on here!

The big problem is that taking the centre of the pie chart ( the HQ of DB on O'Connell st of course) and creating arcs along the main arterial routes, then we will of course find huge chunks where T21 will not cover.

Given that T21 will not be delivered in its entirety by a long shot by 2015, we are looking at DB making up a huge part of the shortfall for a long time yet.

Now if only the DTA could come into being to at least help the future direction of the city transport while we wait on the delayed T21.

trellheim

with the current cutbacks going to bite soon we'll see some of the big T21 projects cut. Guaranteed.

There's no votes in the Interconnector so that'll go [ pity, it's the most needed ]

Metro N will be done as after two southside Luas lines there needs to be a northside line [ albeit metro ]

markf909

More on the privitisation of DB in the SB Post again today.

Nice quote from the minister:

‘‘Some of the nonsense practices have to finish: every bus shouldn’t have to go through O’Connell Street and we shouldn’t see rows of parked buses because drivers are on tea breaks,” Dempsey said. ‘‘We can’t afford to have 1,100 buses working at 30 or 40 per cent capacity.”

Full Article here

monument

KC61 wrote: »

Southside: The entire central area between the green and red lines; Stillorgan Road;

Lucan Luas will serve some the city centre section of area between those two lines. Although I agree bus will likely still remain the largest mode for some time.

munchkin_utd

and another quote from the minister

In an interview with this newspaper last week, Noel Dempsey, the Minister for Transport, said he believed that ‘‘elements’’ of the London system worked, but it was ‘‘not an ideal model’’. He said he was more impressed by the public transport system in Germany.

German system eh?
I wish he had elaborated on that but if the DTA actually gets up and running and has teeth to get stuff coordinated and organised into a WEB of integrated properly timetabled services, coordinating both rail and bus to compliment each other, then that'll be half the battle towards getting your germanised system.

Or does anyone have any other quotes from the Minister where he actually explains what he wants in the new Ayrian-ised Dublin transport system???

shltter

markf909 wrote: »

More on the privitisation of DB in the SB Post again today.

Nice quote from the minister:



Full Article here

thats a cheap attack aimed at appeasing the PD element


Buses are not parked in town so drivers can have a tea break as there is no tea break for anyone driving for DB.
Drivers get one meal break and the bus is not parked up for them it is waiting for the next driver

Buses end up being parked because the running time of services in Dublin is completely unpredictable a Journey that takes 30 minutes on Monday may take over an hour on wednesday and Thursday and might be done in 15 minutes when the Schools are off.
How can you design a timetable with no Layovers when no one can accurately predict how long a journey will take and the amount of time it takes changes from day to day and week to week

DB could draw up a timetable that would ensure that no buses are ever parked but it would also mean that they never or rarely ran on time.

The buses are not parked for drivers benefit they are parked because traffic and running times are not predictable.


Secondly there are a limited number of bridges over the Liffey and the only one with any measure of bus Priority on the approaches is O'Connell Bridge that is why so many buses are directed down that way.

Look at the alternative bridges over the Liffey and the absolute mess that the traffic is around it

From the disaster zone that is Beresford place/Busaras right down to Hueston station.


What has effectively happened is that we have wasted 10 years with little or no growth in Bus Transport while the ridicolous unworkable PD proposals where handed from one Minister to another each in turn slowly realising the massive increase in costs that the PD proposals would lead to.


At least Dempsey has realised that the TFL model is not a panacea for public transport. In fact anyone who has ever bothered to look at TFL would see the huge costs associated with that model and that it was an absolute failure until Red Ken started pouring money into it. Something the Irish Government would be completely unwilling to do unless it involved the destruction of a National Monument.

munchkin_utd

Heres what the minister said again.

‘‘Some of the nonsense practices have to finish: every bus shouldn’t have to go through O’Connell Street and we shouldn’t see rows of parked buses because drivers are on tea breaks,” Dempsey said. ‘‘We can’t afford to have 1,100 buses working at 30 or 40 per cent capacity.”

and he is right. It is a desperate waste of cash that our main public transport in Dublin currently, busses, are lying about idle.
He was a little provocative in his wording, but essentially he isn't wrong.
The massive buffer times/ layover times are a symptom of a problem which is the chronic traffic situation. but the traffic isnt going to dissapear over night as if by magic.

The minister mentioned looking to germany for a model to imitate. Maybe he isnt wrong.

In Munich in the 60s, a city of 1.5 million people, there was a construction and economic boom similar to Ireland currently. The suburbs began to bloom due to the exhorbitant price of housing in the city and all the new city inhabitants. The roads were chronically congested with all the new found wealth allowing the masses to purchase a car, and the traditional thinking of "build more roads" as the solution couldn't continue. And this was in a city chocker with trams - which ran on normal roads in competition with the car.

Overnight in '72 they opened an entire suburban rail system with a trunk line right through the city centre boasting over 100 stations and also 1 Metro line to the north of the city. All was coordinated under a common pricing and timetabling scheme/ authority, the MVV. It wasnt something that they had since prehistory like london or New York, this only happened only 35 years ago just as Ireland was entering the EU.

Maybe the Minister is looking to immitate some place like Munich then?
(the similarity between the cities population wise and things like the interconnector/ metro north are uncanny)

The upshot, if he does as happened for example in Munich, it also means that the fleet of busses currently sitting in traffic heading to town will be shuttling people quickly and reliably about the suburbs rather than sitting wastefully in the city centre after having battled the traffic chaos on the way into town, ready for another battle back to the suburbs! The bus drivers will be as busy as ever but will not have the stress of city centre traffic to deal with!

markf909

Munchkin, great post.

I get a nasty feeling that DB unions will not be happy driving buses out in the suburbs as feeder services.

Especially if the routes/timetables are set by the DTA.

spacetweek

Lot of pessimism in here guys. T21 isn't gonna have the plug pulled.

Why are people so fatalistic about T21? Stop talking about historical experience. We've never had anything like it before - it's a fully funded, well publicised plan that can't be walked away from. Before there were bits and pieces being drawn up in back offices - which were quietly shelved when the gov didn't have the cash. Nowadays, transport is at crisis point, and the gov have told everyone about the plan to fix it. They can't walk away any more.

Things are fundamentally different now, there is a broad consensus across government that transport is at crisis point and something needs to be done. Transport as an issue has gotten to the point where to pull funding from it would be political suicide.

As for the buses, in a low density city like Dublin they'll always have the lion's share of the market. To serve the majority of the city's inhabitants, rail would have to be ridiculously dense - taking decades to build 20 or more lines and struggling to fill many of them due to all the semi d's everywhere.

The car dependency mindset in Ireland is due to many factors: historical dissatisfaction with the PT experience, new found wealth, increased tendancy towards individualism. The second two will fade with time as people learn fiscal discipline and the first when we get some good brands out there like Interconnector and Metro. Luas has already proven itself to be a good brand.

The bus privatisation plan was putting the cart before the horse. We need a DTA and a fully functioning rail network first, one where the bus is relegated to the role of supplier to rail.

Nostradamus

John R wrote: »

If you can't argue your case without making stupid comments about other poster's families then maybe you should go elsewhere.

I wasn't having a go at YOU personally, just the "jobs for the lads" culture at CIE. Every aspect of CIE policy is determined by this and not public transport needs.

The minds of the CIE staff is set in harder concrete than the Luas tracks.

Nostradamus

spacetweek wrote: »

Lot of pessimism in here guys. T21 isn't gonna have the plug pulled.

Why are people so fatalistic about T21?

Even the business community is behind it. If any Irish government were to pull the plug now they would face political ruin. BUT... I completely understand why people are so negative considering the past.

But there is a lot of Joe Duffyism out there as well. It's an Irish thing, we love moaning and whinging.

Nostradamus

markf909 wrote: »

More on the privitisation of DB in the SB Post again today.

Nice quote from the minister:



Full Article here

I am liking Dempsey more and more each day. A lot of the congestion in the city centre is caused by these DB drivers going for their tea breaks.

The bus stops along the northside of Trinity College between noon and 3PM is a master class in how to clog up a city. The CIE unions love their tea and club milks.

Ham'nd'egger

Nostradamus wrote: »

I am liking Dempsey more and more each day. A lot of the congestion in the city centre is caused by these DB drivers going for their tea breaks.

The bus stops along the northside of Trinity College between noon and 3PM is a master class in how to clog up a city. The CIE unions love their tea and club milks.

Usual ill informed flaming post from you, Nostra. :rolleyes: Can you explain to me how buses parked on NON TRAFFIC LANES (Which most city centre bus stops are) in off peak hours causes congestion in Dublin?

Nostradamus

Hamndegger wrote: »

Usual ill informed flaming post from you, Nostra. :rolleyes: Can you explain to me how buses parked on NON TRAFFIC LANES (Which most city centre bus stops are) in off peak hours causes congestion in Dublin?

I would say that Dublin Bus' Ar Larism is the biggest cause of congestion in the city of Dublin since the port tunnel opened, and a huge amount of this is Deco and Anto parking-stopping-parking-moving-etc in order to get their Club Milks and daily does of victim complexes down the canteen.

If you look at any city the size of Dublin which has already implemented a T21 type network such as Prague, Boston, Munich, Vienna etc, one is struck by how few buses they have in their respective city centres compared to Dublin. The buses in these cities are all out in the suburbs working as feeders into the rail, metro and tram systems. But listen to the CIE heads on this board it An Lar forever in Dublin no matter what.

The post about Munich above says all that needs to be said on this matter.

Buses are bad for congestion, even if they are needed. Just being on the city streets is a problem. But by 2015 they should be banished to the fringes of the capital while rail, trams and metros take care of the area between the canals. Anto and Deco will have to munch on their Club Milks somewhere else by then.

Anto and Deco have to come to terms that "Changing with the City" has to be more than an advertising slogan.

John R

Nostradamus wrote: »

I wasn't having a go at YOU personally,

Yes you were, you made a snide reference to me PERSONALLY inferring a particular political persuasion and nepotism on the part of a family member.

Just like all your posts, it is mud-slinging rather than facts.


And why is it that with only 20 odd posts and a month registered do your posts seem so familiar? Could it be that you are in fact someine who has posted here many times before that has re-registered with another account?

Nostradamus wrote: »

just the "jobs for the lads" culture at CIE. Every aspect of CIE policy is determined by this and not public transport needs.

The minds of the CIE staff is set in harder concrete than the Luas tracks.

Blah blah blah. Same fact free sh!te. Why make a reasonable point when you can just accuse thousands of individuals of some un-provable crime.

Nostradamus

John R wrote: »

Yes you were, you made a snide reference to me PERSONALLY inferring a particular political persuasion and nepotism on the part of a family member.

How could it be personal? I have no idea who you are. Even if you have a father or a son. You are just a couple of blips on the electro-magnetic spectrum. All I can tell is you are an unconditional defender of CIE for the most part.

But if you took it personally and want an apology, then I am sorry.

John R wrote: »

Just like all your posts, it is mud-slinging rather than facts.

ALL my posts? Isn't that just a bit OTT? Or is your own selective reading the issue here. I do not recall me getting so huffy when you posted a photo of a train I photographed a few years ago which some loser weasel forwarded to you. It meant nothing. I actually found it funny. So you're hardly immune from the the oul snide stuff yourself when it suits you.

John R wrote: »

And why is it that with only 20 odd posts and a month registered do your posts seem so familiar? Could it be that you are in fact someine who has posted here many times before that has re-registered with another account?

I tried logging on with T21 account after I got out of hospital but it would not work. I am not sure what happened to it.

What's wrong or so sinister with posting 20 posts a month? Would you be able to enjoy your CLub Milk with a greater sense of personal security if I maintained a 40 post average instead?

John R wrote: »

Blah blah blah. Same fact free sh!te. Why make a reasonable point when you can just accuse thousands of individuals of some un-provable crime.

Who said anything about nepotism being a crime? It unfair, self-serving and leads to insular myopic cultures which has had terrible effects on public services (and private business) in this country over the years. This is the truth regardless of if some people want to deal with it or not.

I have even seen quotes from CIE union leaders in the past boasting about the "great family tradition within CIE". So there has to be something to it.

*hold on I am going into another trace...*

In the land of the Club Milk
The movers of people will go to a gym at Harristown
There will be much discontentment
and burning of pallets
in the name of quality public transport and new rosters
and the mark of the beast shall be three letters.
CIE

AlekSmart

I suppose cosa nostradamus can be forgiven his volcanic venting to atmosphere as it only underlines the reality of how ANY large passenger carrying vehicle (Bus,Tram,Train,Tandem etc) actually does require SPACE.

I`m unsure of Nostradam`s working arrangements and whether or not he actually take s a statutory meal break or not but I do hope he is able to partake of "refreshments" in an off-the-job setting.

Sadly for poor oul Nostradamus,the ever increasing influence of the EU will see Busdrivers becoming entitled to even more "Statutory" meal breaks in the future,something I`m not over excited about as I would prefer to get my days work done as fast and as efficiently possible as the law will allow....Kit-Kat`s and Mars bars ain`t for me.

Where Nostradamus shows a weakness is in how he percieves the 3,100 (And rising) Busdrivers as being a part of the vehicle they drive....I`m sure this could be worked upon and perhaps with some patience and mutual understanding he might develop some understanding of how these systems (Human ones) operate...

Other than attempting that,he and we will probably have to wait a further 1,000 years until his T21,22,23,24 dream...etc is actually finished and operating untouched by human hand....

Nostradamus

AlekSmart wrote: »

I suppose cosa nostradamus can be forgiven his volcanic venting to atmosphere as it only underlines the reality of how ANY large passenger carrying vehicle (Bus,Tram,Train,Tandem etc) actually does require SPACE.

I`m unsure of Nostradam`s working arrangements and whether or not he actually take s a statutory meal break or not but I do hope he is able to partake of "refreshments" in an off-the-job setting.

Sadly for poor oul Nostradamus,the ever increasing influence of the EU will see Busdrivers becoming entitled to even more "Statutory" meal breaks in the future,something I`m not over excited about as I would prefer to get my days work done as fast and as efficiently possible as the law will allow....Kit-Kat`s and Mars bars ain`t for me.

Where Nostradamus shows a weakness is in how he percieves the 3,100 (And rising) Busdrivers as being a part of the vehicle they drive....I`m sure this could be worked upon and perhaps with some patience and mutual understanding he might develop some understanding of how these systems (Human ones) operate...

Other than attempting that,he and we will probably have to wait a further 1,000 years until his T21,22,23,24 dream...etc is actually finished and operating untouched by human hand....

You can have your tea breaks. Just not when it suits you, that's all. Dempsey is 100% correct, this nonsense at Dublin Bus has to stop.

The taxpayers and commuters deserve better utilisation of the buses they paid for and the jobs for life they fund. Why is this such an appalling concept for you lads to grasp?

Be nice if you actually took my points on board about Munich, Prague, Vienna and Boston. They are valid and do point towards an on-comming future for the city of Dublin which is currently being developed. T21 is well underway. It's happening. The DB unions hiding their heads under the blankets and crying "make it go away mammy" won't change that now.

How anyone can say the bus will be the main mode of public transport in Dublin City post T21 is beyond me. Look at how two unconnected Luas lines devatated an entire DB customer base. I can only imagine what Metro North will do and that's but one element of a vast rail systems being developed.

Time to grow up lads and deal with change if you want Dublin Bus to survive. This is just common sense. The game is up. Deal with it.

Irish people actually move home in order to be within walking distance of a Luas and DART station and believe me they'll be fighting to live next to a Metro station.

The day Dubliners move house to be near a 46A stop, then you might have a point. Commuters turn their backs on Dublin Bus every time they can get an alternative. Just because you had a monopoly, does not mean you are the most desired. Your hyperbole mean nothing outside the CIE canteen Alex. Trust me on this one. The future is racing towards the back of your bus faster than you think - I suggest going with the flow rather than fighting against the inevitable.