New 5-series

Impega7848

Is anyone resonably 'key'd-in' or sufficently in the loop to have answers for the following:

1) Will the 3L twin turbo petrol engine from the 3 series (335i) be plonked into the 5series at some stage in the very new future? (Did a youtube search and it seems to be available in the states since last year?)

2) Owing to the changes in vrt, are some of the diesel bmw prices going to fall, or as was suggested on some previous threads, will 'they' decide to increase the general spec of their new cars instead?

Any insights to the above.....

farva

I was looking for info on the next generation 5 series myself and the best I could find is this:

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret-new-cars/Search-Results/Spyshots/BMW-5-series-scooped/?&R=EPI-5378

Looks like the new engine range will have the 3.0 twin turbo petrol, but more importantly look at the new 530d (245bhp / 422lb/ft) and 535d (300bhp/500lb/ft)... HOLY SH1T!!!

Impega7848

farva wrote: »

I was looking for info on the next generation 5 series myself and the best I could find is this:

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret-new-cars/Search-Results/Spyshots/BMW-5-series-scooped/?&R=EPI-5378

Looks like the new engine range will have the 3.0 twin turbo petrol, but more importantly look at the new 530d (245bhp / 422lb/ft) and 535d (300bhp/500lb/ft)... HOLY SH1T!!!

Appreciate that. It says 2009 as regards changes, so i'd imagine late 2009/early 2010 being more realistic....

I was more concerned with more imminent changes ie within the nxt 4-6mths

farva

With a new model so close and a facelift and engine upgrade in 2006 I cant see BMW fitting the twin turbo 3.0 to the E60, if they were going to they probably would have done it when they facelifted the 5 series in 2006. I'd say that the new model should be in the showroom in 2009, so there isn't too long to wait!

E92

Impega7848 wrote: »

Is anyone resonably 'key'd-in' or sufficently in the loop to have answers for the following:

1) Will the 3L twin turbo petrol engine from the 3 series (335i) be plonked into the 5series at some stage in the very new future? (Did a youtube search and it seems to be available in the states since last year?)

2) Owing to the changes in vrt, are some of the diesel bmw prices going to fall, or as was suggested on some previous threads, will 'they' decide to increase the general spec of their new cars instead?

Any insights to the above.....

Click the link in my sig. It has the prices for the 5 series(and all other cars) from July, and contrary to some of the nonsense being posted around here, BMW will be passing on the VRT changes in full(note that what I put down is only an estimation, and must be viewed as such), the MD for BMW Group Ireland has said in the Auto Ireland magazine that the 520d SE, which currently retails for €54,250, will be retailing for €46,190 in July(manual gearbox only).

Now why would the MD give a price so far out in advance if BMW weren't going to be passing on the VRT savings?

All 5 series prices will fall, excluding the V8s and the M5. As the link in my sig shows, the drop is very dramatic for the 520d, and less dramatic for the other models in the range. The manual 6 cylinder diesels(i.e. 525d and 530d) will be in the 24% VRT category, so they will have a bit of a drop too, the rest have a small decrease.

The big news isn't so much the drop in list price, what's far more significant is the fact that any 6 cylinder model(excluding diesel manuals) will cost only €10 more to tax a year than a 520d does now(520ds are going down to €150 for the manual, and €290 for the Auto). So instead of paying €1290 to tax a 525i/d-535d inclusive as you would if you bought it now, buy a newone in July, and you're depriving the Government of €690 everyyear. Chose a 525d or 530d with a manual gearbox, and you're depriving the Government of €860 a year(these will be €430 a year to tax). That's a massive saving.

Ignoring the 520d, if you compare a like for like petrol and diesel, i.e. the 525i and 530i with the 525d and 530d respectively you will find that when you put an Automatic gearbox on these, that the petrols and diesels turn out to have identical VRT and road tax rates.(all 28% VRT and €600 road tax). The manual petrol models are also €600 to tax and the manual diesels are €430 to tax(as well as the lower 24% VRT saving).

So basically, unless you have to have a manual, you're no better off with the diesels, unless you choose the 520d of course:D.

The twin turbo from the 335i and 135i is unlikely to make it to Europe for this generation. In the Continent where they are not hamstrung by stupendous road tax and VRT rates, the 530d is the most popular 5 series models. IMO the 520d is only really there to get around countries with high tax regimes and to make the starting point of 5 series ownership more affordable(that said I don't know what it's like really).

The full lineup for the F10/F11(next generation) 5 series is supposed to be:
Diesel:520d(2.0 4 cylinder, 175 bhp)
525d(3.0 straight 6, 204 bhp)
530d(same engine, 245 bhp)
535d(same engine but with twin turbos and 300 bhp)

All of the above are Euro 5 compliant but require AdBlue(which is topped up when the car is serviced apparently, no need for the user to fill it up).

Petrol:520i(2.5 straight 6, 218 bhp)
525i(3.0 straight 6, 245 bhp)
530i(same engine but with 272 bhp)
535i(3.0 twin turbo, different engine to the 525i and 530i, 306 bhp)
540i(4.8 V8, same as today's 550i, 367 bhp)
550i(new 4.4 twin turbo V8, 408 bhp)

All these will also be Euro 5 compliant too.

Impega7848

E92 wrote: »

Click the link in my sig. It has the prices for the 5 series(and all other cars) from July, and contrary to some of the nonsense being posted around here, BMW will be passing on the VRT changes in full(note that what I put down is only an estimation, and must be viewed as such), the MD for BMW Group Ireland has said in the Auto Ireland magazine that the 520d SE, which currently retails for €54,250, will be retailing for €46,190 in July(manual gearbox only).

Now why would the MD give a price so far out in advance if BMW weren't going to be passing on the VRT savings?

All 5 series prices will fall, excluding the V8s and the M5. As the link in my sig shows, the drop is very dramatic for the 520d, and less dramatic for the other models in the range. The manual 6 cylinder diesels(i.e. 525d and 530d) will be in the 24% VRT category, so they will have a bit of a drop too, the rest have a small decrease.

The big news isn't so much the drop in list price, what's far more significant is the fact that any 6 cylinder model(excluding diesel manuals) will cost only €10 more to tax a year than a 520d does now(520ds are going down to €150 for the manual, and €290 for the Auto). So instead of paying €1290 to tax a 525i/d-535d inclusive as you would if you bought it now, buy a newone in July, and you're depriving the Government of €690 everyyear. Chose a 525d or 530d with a manual gearbox, and you're depriving the Government of €860 a year(these will be €430 a year to tax). That's a massive saving.

Ignoring the 520d, if you compare a like for like petrol and diesel, i.e. the 525i and 530i with the 525d and 530d respectively you will find that when you put an Automatic gearbox on these, that the petrols and diesels turn out to have identical VRT and road tax rates.(all 28% VRT and €600 road tax). The manual petrol models are also €600 to tax and the manual diesels are €430 to tax(as well as the lower 24% VRT saving).

So basically, unless you have to have a manual, you're no better off with the diesels, unless you choose the 520d of course:D.

The twin turbo from the 335i and 135i is unlikely to make it to Europe for this generation. In the Continent where they are not hamstrung by stupendous road tax and VRT rates, the 530d is the most popular 5 series models. IMO the 520d is only really there to get around countries with high tax regimes and to make the starting point of 5 series ownership more affordable(that said I don't know what it's like really).

The full lineup for the F10/F11(next generation) 5 series is supposed to be:
Diesel:520d(2.0 4 cylinder, 175 bhp)
525d(3.0 straight 6, 204 bhp)
530d(same engine, 245 bhp)
535d(same engine but with twin turbos and 300 bhp)

All of the above are Euro 5 compliant but require AdBlue(which is topped up when the car is serviced apparently, no need for the user to fill it up).

Petrol:520i(2.5 straight 6, 218 bhp)
525i(3.0 straight 6, 245 bhp)
530i(same engine but with 272 bhp)
535i(3.0 twin turbo, different engine to the 525i and 530i, 306 bhp)
540i(4.8 V8, same as today's 550i, 367 bhp)
550i(new 4.4 twin turbo V8, 408 bhp)

All these will also be Euro 5 compliant too.

Thats impressively comprehensive.....there must be some sort of consultancy business in that level of personal detail...! Thanks.

In your opinion, in summary, buy a high-end 5 series now, or wait till the vrt changes?

E92

Impega7848 wrote: »

Thats impressively comprehensive.....there must be some sort of consultancy business in that level of personal detail...! Thanks.

In your opinion, in summary, buy a high-end 5 series now, or wait till the vrt changes?

Thanks, unless it's a V8(i.e. 540i or 550i) or the M5, then unquestionably wait, wait, wait:)!

(post July the 6 cylinder petrol engines will be the same price as a Merc E220 CDI Auto with it's 2.2 litre 4 cylinder diesel engine to tax)

What 5 series are you interested in i.e. saloon/touring and 520d/525i etc?

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

All of the above are Euro 5 compliant but require AdBlue(which is topped up when the car is serviced apparently, no need for the user to fill it up).

Thought BMW weren't going down the Adblue route?

At 1-litre per 20-litres of Diesel (I think I read that on Adblue's site), the AB tanks is going to be very big if it's only filled every service...

Mind quoting your source?

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

Thought BMW weren't going down the Adblue route?

At 1-litre per 20-litres of Diesel (I think I read that on Adblue's site), the AB tanks is going to be very big if it's only filled every service...

Mind quoting your source?

They were cooperating with VAG and Merc to develop SCR/AdBlue, but then they pulled out of it(so did VAG cause Merc wanted both of them to call it Bluetec or something, and VAG and BMW apparently didn't want to call it Bluetec or something cause Merc came up with the idea, not really sure tbh), but both still are using AdBlue in the end.

This link shows what BMW are doing for their new TierII BinV diesel for the US. They're calling it "Advanced Diesel with Blue Performance"(what a rubbish name:D). We'll get the same technology(it uses only 1% of the car's actual fuel consumption AFAIK) for Euro V apparently(certainly for Euro VI, but I'd say more AdBlue will be needed then presumably).

WorldCarFans.com wrote:

AdBlue technology by BMW: Optimized emissions without requiring additional maintenance.

To introduce AdBlue technology into the car, BMW has developed a two-tank system ensuring convenient use of this new technology with all the benefits and ease required by the customer. The amount of AdBlue required in each case is injected from the active tank (approximately 1.6 gallons in volume) by means of a dosage pump. And since the urea solution would freeze at a temperature of 12.2oF, this active tank, as well as the dosage pipes, are heated.
The active tank is connected to a second reservoir, referred to as the passive tank. With its additional capacity of approximately 4.5 gallons, this passive tank offers a plentiful supply of the urea solution. The average range provided with this supply capacity is indeed sufficient to have the tank system replenished only when the driver needs to change the engine oil. Hence, the large amount of AdBlue stored in the reservoir enables the customer to enjoy continuous driving, without having to change his/her service intervals. The driver therefore benefits from the advantages of this environmentally friendly emission technology throughout the entire running life of the car, without any additional service or visits to the workshop. Since all BMWs sold in the US benefit from The BMW Maintenance Program, the refilling of the AdBlue tanks will be a no-charge service for 4 years or 50,000 miles.
AdBlue from the active tank is delivered to the dosing valve and atomize into the exhaust system. Consistent distribution of AdBlue within the flow of exhaust is ensured by the SCR mixer. The ammonia generated in the hot exhaust flow subsequently acts as a reduction agent in the SCR catalyst and converts environmentally harmful nitric oxides into nitrogen and water vapor in a process referred to as a selective catalytic reaction (SCR). This process gives the special SCR catalyst its name.
The control of the SCR system is masterminded by BMW’s powerful engine management computer. A nitric oxide sensor downstream of the SCR catalyst provides feedback on the concentration of NOX in the exhaust emissions.
Due to packaging limitations in certain vehicles, the position and location of the AdBlue tank may be varied from one vehicle model to the other. In the BMW 335d, the active and passive tank are at the rear end of the car, while in the BMW X5 xDrive35d, the active tank is housed in the front right section of the engine compartment, and the passive tank is under-floor next to the transmission.

I don't see BMW paying for the AdBlue for us though when we get it:D, unlike in the US, where American customers won't pay for it for their first 4 years/50,000 miles(presumably to try and get Americans to buy into the diesel idea).

JHMEG

Disapppointing. I thought when they pulled out of the Adblue Axis that they were developing or licensing an alternative.

E92

What's so bad about AdBlue(apart from the cost of using it obviously)?

I remember you saying something about it before, but can't remember what.

There is every possibility that BMW's Euro V diesels won't need AdBlue(Fiat have Euro V diesels with no AdBlue), I simply don't know, but presumably the Euro VI ones will require it(I think Euro VI is as strict as the current US regulations are).

Traumadoc

If you ordered a 530 d for January could you hold off till july before taking delivery.

I have a 05 530d and am pissed off as second hand values will dive, buy one from the UK and pay 800 euro less tax per year!. You would be stupid to buy an irish one.

E92

Traumadoc wrote: »

If you ordered a 530 d for January could you hold off till july before taking delivery.

I have a 05 530d and am pissed off as second hand values will dive, buy one from the UK and pay 800 euro less tax per year!. You would be stupid to buy an irish one.

There have been plenty of stories about masses of 520ds which were due for delivery last month still sitting on dealers forecourts, because the people who bought these clearly want to make hay with the new savings and of course pay roughly 25% road tax every year compared to what they would pay now.

So I'm sure you could get a 530d deferred.

If you put an Automatic gearbox onto a 530d (this applies to models with EfficientDynamics ONLY) you have a car that only does roughly 5 mpg more than it's petropl equivalent, the 530i, and only pollutes 2 g/km less than the 530i with an Automatic gearbox, as well as that the 530i has 40 bhp more and a far nicer engine noise, and as 530ds are worth a lot more than 530is(though when people realise that CO2 is directly related to fuel consumption as they will be forced to under the new VRT regime that may well change), I have to say if I was in the position of buying a brand new 5 series, I would unquestionably go for the petrol model, more power, a much better sounding engine and almost as good economy as the diesel engine.

Of course, a manual gearbox is a different story, but I'm not sure would anyone buy a 3.0 litre executive car with a manual gearbox(especially a petrol), even with the new VRT system when you want to trade it in.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

What's so bad about AdBlue(apart from the cost of using it obviously)

Compared with no adblue: Inelegant, complex, capital cost, running costs, moving parts, reliability, user invervention required to keep it running... etc.

Euro 5 without adblue is only really possible on smaller cars.

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

Compared with no adblue: Inelegant, complex, capital cost, running costs, moving parts, reliability, user invervention required to keep it running... etc.

The costs of it I can't deny, but at the same time it can't be all that expensive, if it only needs a top up every time it goes for a service(a sneaky move though:D, which forces you to use the main dealer for servicing, as the AdBlue isn't available freely like diesel is AFAIK, and even if it was, the tank isn't readily accessible either AFAIK), but I was more concerned about the environmental aspect about it, I seem to remember you mentioning something about how AdBlue was less than good for the planet or something.

Could we be seeing the end of diesel, all these new emission laws are seriously going to jack up the price of diesel cars(ironically the Government has just made them a lot more affordable, and we're now going to embrace diesel mania, when the rest of Europe may be starting to give it up) for the rest of Europe, and someone has got to pay for AdBlue(no prizes for guessing who), so one wonders what the future holds for diesel power?

JHMEG

Believe me, adblue is very undesireable vs no adblue. I think you're being a bit forgiving towards it now that BMW are using it.

Adblue is freely available. I see places advertising it. It is a commercial product, tm of the German Association of the Automobile Industry.

A tank of adblue that will last between services will be quite large, and therefore will impact on fuel ecenomy. Minimum ratio to diesel from what I read is 3%. Typical is 3% to 5%.

Adblue is made from natrual gas.

While it's not suprising VW, Merc and BMW have adopted AB, it is disappointing that they didn't come up with something that prevents the emissions rather than cures them.

Europe isn't moving away from diesel. Where petrol/diesel prices have been high, consumers are tending to go for diesel, which is most of Europe. We're only now going for it cos it looks like medium to large diesel cars will be a lot cheaper than their petrol counterpars.

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

Believe me, adblue is very undesireable vs no adblue. I think you're being a bit forgiving towards it now that BMW are using it.

Adblue is freely available. I see places advertising it. It is a commercial product, tm of the German Association of the Automobile Industry.

A tank of adblue that will last between services will be quite large, and therefore will impact on fuel ecenomy. Minimum ratio to diesel from what I read is 3%. Typical is 3% to 5%.

Adblue is made from natrual gas.

I'm not being forgiving about it at all. Just wondering about it, that's all. Just cause BMW does it certainly doesn't mean its good(nor does it automatically mean it's bad either, which is the impression I get from your posts about BMW from time to time).

I've just never seen it being advertised anywhere.

Makes you wonder why the EU allows AdBlue then, if what you're saying about it is true.(especially as Natural Gas isn't a renewable resource)

I thought they were supposed to be for protecting the planet, whereas what you're saying implies that a bit like everyone here buying new cars cause they have lower CO2 emissions, and therefore reducing ours, but the considerable amount of energy required to make a car means all the newones we're buying is causing lots of pollution somewhere else. In other words, what we're doing is shifting pollution around.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

I've just never seen it being advertised anywhere.

findadblue.com
3 places in Cork selling it.

E92 wrote: »

Makes you wonder why the EU allows AdBlue then, if what you're saying about it is true.(especially as Natural Gas isn't a renewable resource).

It's not about the planet, it's about human health, and no doubt money too. Like Gilette and the razor blades.

E92 wrote: »

In other words, what we're doing is shifting pollution around.

Should we be maintaining an aging fleet of cars that cause lung cancer?

My posts, my opinions. If you don't like them don't read them. If I feel like dispelling a few BMW myths from time to time, I will.

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

Europe isn't moving away from diesel. Where petrol/diesel prices have been high, consumers are tending to go for diesel, which is most of Europe. We're only now going for it cos it looks like medium to large diesel cars will be a lot cheaper than their petrol counterpars.

Sorry, what I meant was with all the new emissions regs, and the cost of AdBlue etc, will Europe start moving away from diesel when the new regs come along(I mean the costs for diesels will go up hugely in small cars, making diesel seem very expensive compared to petrol, and small cars are extremely popular in the continent)?

At the end of the day, the real reason Europe loves diesel is because they don't cost a whole lot more to buy than petrol, it does 30% more mpg usually and diesel is a good bit cheaper than petrol in most of Europe. The whole performance thing isn't that important really, most people aren't really interested in cars that much, what it revolves down for most people is which fuel will be cheaper to run overall.

Moving back to the Irish situation, apart from the likes of Corsas and Aygos, diesel should be no dearer/only a small bit dearer to buy than petrol in many cases under the new VRT regime(and often diesels will have more power never mind torque too), and 30% more mpg along with the lower road tax every year, as well as it sometimes being cheaper per litre leads me to believe that the prediction that 70% of new car sales will be diesel after the changes is a bit conservative.

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

Should we be maintaining an aging fleet of cars that cause lung cancer?

I don't know, you said in a previous post that "adblue is very undesireable vs no adblue".

And Carrick On Suir isn't in Cork. It's Tipperary:p.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

Sorry, what I meant was with all the new emissions regs, and the cost of AdBlue etc,

Smaller cars can do Euro 5 without AB, as Fiat have shown. BMW should manage it with the MINI, and *maybe* the 1.

The Germans are the only ones subscribed to Adblue. For bigger cars, we have yet to see what the rest of the Euro makers, GM and Ford, Toyota and Nissan will come up with. As we know Honda have developed a plasma reactor.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

I don't know, you said in a previous post that "adblue is very undesireable vs no adblue".

Point is: solve the fecking problem without such an inelegant solution as Adblue!

E92 wrote: »

And Carrick On Suir isn't in Cork. It's Tipperary:p.

Contact the German Association of the Automobile Industry, and let them know!;)

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

Point is: solve the fecking problem without such an inelegant solution as Adblue!

Okay, which is better in your opinion, a Euro 4 car with no AdBlue, or Euro 5/Euro 6 with AdBlue?(I don't know enough about this whole thing to argue about which is better).

As for the other makes, well whatever PSA do will apply to MINI(with it's PSA oil burner), and Ford(as well as other brands like Volvo, Mazda etc to a certain extent), whatever Fiat do will apply for GM(since GM diesels are from Fiat more or less), and whatever Renault do will go for Nissan.

That pretty much covers everyone bar Mazda's own diesels, Toyota(perhaps their D-CAT will solve the problem), Volvos own diesel, a few Ford diesels(like the Mondeo, Galaxy, S-Max 1.8 and 2.0 diesels), Subaru, Mitsubishi, which are still very much up in air these days, since we know what VAG, BMW, Merc and Honda are going to do.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

Okay, which is better in your opinion, a Euro 4 car with no AdBlue, or Euro 5/Euro 6 with AdBlue?(I don't know enough about this whole thing to argue about which is better).

Euro 5, regardless.

E92 wrote: »

since we know what VAG, BMW, Merc .. are going to do

Which I really hope isn't their long term solution.