Super 14

EdgarAllenPoo

What have you thought of it so far especially with the new rule variations?

Personally while Super 14 has always been played at a faster pace than European rugby I thought the games were even faster than nomal which is a good thing.

Tap and go seems to be the order of the day which I think will seriously favour teams with a decent backline and backrow.

Stev_o

GDM wrote: »

What have you thought of it so far especially with the new rule variations?

Personally while Super 14 has always been played at a faster pace than European rugby I thought the games were even faster than nomal which is a good thing.

Tap and go seems to be the order of the day which I think will seriously favour teams with a decent backline and backrow.

I watched the Sharks vs Force game and i thought it was muck actually far worst then the stuff you might see from Manger Leagues matches. It was RWC re visited with the order of the day just seemed to kick down field and return in kind.

EdgarAllenPoo

I thought that about that game too but the match this morning between the Blues and Chiefs was much better, a lot less aimless kicking and a lot more running rugby. I don't see much of a difference in the rules regarding the tackle area and they still penalised for a maul being brought to ground ( I don't thikk that rule was being played in this match) but the way penalties have been changed really quickens up the game.

Diamondmaker

I was at Reds V shighlanders last night, had a great evening but was not impresed with either team. Ran like headless chickens with very little effective use of the pack.

Saw the blues game also which was very entertaing, played at serios pace. It is a very diffrent game than SH for sure.

I cant wait for the arrival of a few of the top Kiwi teams here, I am a bit dissapointed I wont see Freddie and Steyn however as the Reds seem to have drawn 3 away games to the SA teams.

Crash

GDM wrote: »

I thought that about that game too but the match this morning between the Blues and Chiefs was much better, a lot less aimless kicking and a lot more running rugby. I don't see much of a difference in the rules regarding the tackle area and they still penalised for a maul being brought to ground ( I don't thikk that rule was being played in this match) but the way penalties have been changed really quickens up the game.

GDM did the rule not specify that you could bring down a maul but ONLY after you'd neutralised forward momentum? may possibly be why you wouldnt be seeing it.

Or did I misinterpret it?

grenache

GDM wrote: »

What have you thought of it so far especially with the new rule variations?

The new rules made the Blues/Chiefs game much more interesting to watch from a neutrals point of view. The best new rule of the lot is whereby a player kicking into touch from inside his own 22 will be brought back to where he kicked it from for the lineout. Its rugby's version of the 'back-pass' rule. It definitely made for more attacking rugby with both teams choosing to run from inside their own 22s.

JSK 252

Could someone explain to me what the new rules are if ye dont mind?

Crash

Aha! I have NO idea where I came up with the neutralising forward movement line at ALL, but I did find the list of exactly which rules are being trialled here:

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/newsmedia/0/020811drelvss142008%5f4404.pdf

those in bold are being trialled, the others aren't. therefore, you can't pull down the maul at the moment.

phog

çrash_000 wrote: »

Aha! I have NO idea where I came up with the neutralising forward movement line at ALL, but I did find the list of exactly which rules are being trialled here:

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/newsmedia/0/020811drelvss142008%5f4404.pdf

those in bold are being trialled, the others aren't. therefore, you can't pull down the maul at the moment.

Thanks for the link, I haven't seen any of the Super 14 matches yet so can't comment on the games so far but I heard Paddy O'Brien on Newstalk or Des Cahill during the week and he mentioned that only some of the new rules are being trialled, I think he might have preferred if they trialled all the new rules.

Nukem

Heard Paddy O'Briens breakdown of the new rules and I must say I really like what they are trying to do. The game will be way played a higher tempo and cuts out a severe amount of stop starts in scrums. The maul rule needs clarity as that seems rather dangerous.

Hope they introduce them as Law's

JWAD

I was a tad dubious watching the game I saw on friday night but I think that was just a bad game regardless of what laws it was played to.
Yesterday gave me more hope. The Tahs win over the Canes illustrated beautifully the aim of the laws. Less three pointers. More ball-in-play.

Burst me arse laughing at Ciaran Cronin's pitiful lament in today's Trib at the likelihood of players running out of puff at the 60 minute mark. Imagine the shock and horror of them having to play the game for a full 80 minutes instead of endless stoppages and breaks? :rolleyes:

Sundy

JWAD wrote: »

Burst me arse laughing at Ciaran Cronin's pitiful lament in today's Trib at the likelihood of players running out of puff at the 60 minute mark. Imagine the shock and horror of them having to play the game for a full 80 minutes instead of endless stoppages and breaks? :rolleyes:

Thats actually a good point he makes, not sure why you burst your arse laughing at it. Breaks in play do give players a much needed rest. Why do you think sevens games are so short? Because with all the running they tired quickly.
Could the new rules eventually lead to a shorter game being introduced?

Rattlehead_ie

Anyone see the Chiefs game, they were winning at half time then I had to go into work I know they lost but were they bad? Still have to see a full game with new rules but in general I like the look of it,gives the game more free flowing feel to it.

toomevara

I was a big advocate to the ELV's but after watching a number of the games at the weekend, I'd say they're an unmitigated shambles. I'm really surprised as i'd hoped for much more. Pointless kicking duels, no contest at the ruck and an awful lot of powderpuff rugby. I think alot of it is down to the fact that they bottled introducing some of the more radical and,imo, best variations....

I'd go as far as to say that SH rugby will be greatly disadvantaged against Northern teams as a result of playing in this style...poor stuff, reckon the aussie clubs will do well out of it though.....

JWAD

Sundy wrote: »

Thats actually a good point he makes, not sure why you burst your arse laughing at it. Breaks in play do give players a much needed rest. Why do you think sevens games are so short? Because with all the running they tired quickly.
Could the new rules eventually lead to a shorter game being introduced?

They are fully professional rugby union players. A game lasts for 80 minutes so it should be played for 80 minutes, in my opinion.
There'll be less emphasis on bulking up to silly levels and more on physical and aerobic conditioning when the majority of these laws work their way into the game globally.
Don't know about you but I like to see the ball occasionally and witness some tries being scored. Aside from a RWC which yielded spineless tactics for the main part, the Edinburgh v Munster game the other night should be enough to indicate that all is not well in RU.

Stev_o

They seem pointless bar the scrum rule. I watched 3 matches during the weekend Bath vs Wasps being a classic match the best iv seen all year and the score was 42-32 and that wasnt because of shotty defending it was because of good rugby. Teams can play fast rugby if they want but for the sake of the game not turning into rugby league just forget these only free kick instead of penalty's crap

JWAD

Stev_o wrote: »

Teams can play fast rugby if they want but for the sake of the game not turning into rugby league just forget these only free kick instead of penalty's crap

How would it turn into rugby league???
There are contested scrums. There are lineouts. There are rucks. There are no PTBs. No sets of six.
'Tis a sad day when people dont want the ball in play for longer with continuity added to boot.

Games evolve. Get over it. Actually better get used to it. We're going to be already a season behind in getting used to them
You might have watched a great game in the GP but I watched what was probably the worst, most negative game I've probably ever seen yesterday. Had I never seen a game of rugby before and stumbled upon it on TV, I'd probably switch right off and never watch the sport again.

Podge_irl

JWAD wrote: »

You might have watched a great game in the GP but I watched what was probably the worst, most negative game I've probably ever seen yesterday. Had I never seen a game of rugby before and stumbled upon it on TV, I'd probably switch right off and never watch the sport again.

And do you honestly think there will be zero poor games with these new laws? Crap games happen, it's inevitable. I haven't seen any S14 games yet so I'll reserve judgement on the ELVs til I have, but from reading about them I'm not all that optimistic.

JWAD

Podge_irl wrote: »

And do you honestly think there will be zero poor games with these new laws? Crap games happen, it's inevitable. I haven't seen any S14 games yet so I'll reserve judgement on the ELVs til I have, but from reading about them I'm not all that optimistic.

No, of course I don't and don't for a second count on the variations in the rules to prevent bad games from happening.. The two 14s games from friday I watched were not exactly great stuff to watch. Error-ridden and aimless at times.
Not saying anyone is right or wrong here. Just of the opinion that the game needs a little tweaking to keep it interesting to watch. There's a good reason why crowds get much noisier when the ball gets moved about or actually reaches a winger like Howlett or Vainikolo.

RuggieBear

Ah J but you love rugby league. Most of us don't. IMO the new laws are a sop to the Aussie love of League.

I agree with Toome's assessment tbh. I thought the s14 games were awful.

Oilrig

I wonder how these ELV's would work out on a soggy pitch during a downpour?

That would be a real test...

Sundy

JWAD wrote: »

They are fully professional rugby union players. A game lasts for 80 minutes so it should be played for 80 minutes, in my opinion.
There'll be less emphasis on bulking up to silly levels and more on physical and aerobic conditioning when the majority of these laws work their way into the game globally.
Don't know about you but I like to see the ball occasionally and witness some tries being scored. Aside from a RWC which yielded spineless tactics for the main part, the Edinburgh v Munster game the other night should be enough to indicate that all is not well in RU.

Rugby Union is played for 80 minutes. Pausing for scrums and to take lineouts is part of the game.
Have you ever played union? If you had you would realise that full tempo union is the most physically demanding a field sport could get. Try keeping it up for 10 minutes no mind say 80.
If you want to watch a fast running game watch sevens, sure maybe they could change those games to 80 minutes for you.

JWAD

Sundy wrote: »

Rugby Union is played for 80 minutes. Pausing for scrums and to take lineouts is part of the game.
Have you ever played union? If you had you would realise that full tempo union is the most physically demanding a field sport could get. Try keeping it up for 10 minutes no mind say 80.
If you want to watch a fast running game watch sevens, sure maybe they could change those games to 80 minutes for you.

Of course, I've played rugby union. As a halfback and sometimes 10. Since I was 8 yrs old in fact. I've also played rugby league. Of a decent grade/level too.
So don't patronise me with the likes of 'you weren't there, man', thanks. I know what 80 minutes of rugby entails.

toomevara

Sundy wrote: »

If you had you would realise that full tempo union is the most physically demanding a field sport could get. Try keeping it up for 10 minutes no mind say 80.

Fitness levels in league across the board are far higher, and always have been. When union went fully professional, most clubs in england just copied the training regimes of league or brought in league trainers...

If I could quote Graham Lowe of Wigan and NZ:

"I'm 49, I've had a brain haemorrhage and a triple bypass and I could still go out and play a reasonable game of rugby union. But I wouldn't last 30 seconds in league."

marco_polo

One game in and Brian Habana is not a fan of the ELVs


http://www.planet-rugby.com/Story/0,18259,3551_3162089,00.html

Stealdo

marco_polo wrote: »

One game in and Brian Habana is not a fan of the ELVs


http://www.planet-rugby.com/Story/0,18259,3551_3162089,00.html

I love the last line of this report, following Habana whinging about the changes..."Habana injured his shoulder in the first round of the Super 14 against the Stormers on Saturday and looks set to be sidelined for up to a month."
Makes it sound like "Bryan hurt his arm and went home"

I didn't get to watch enough of these games over the weekend to really form an opinion but having seen 10 minute snippets of two or three games I just thought to myself that S14 rugby always has a different feel to it and it's hard to say what any of this means long term.
Having been fed on a diet of Heineken Cup, Magner's League and 6N for the winter the S14 always looks a little strange. They commit less players to rucks/mauls, always have way more forwards standing out in the line, are less likely to keep ball in the forwards, lots of little things like a lot of "flat" passes that are let go. I'd love to see a couple of NH teams go at it under the new laws to get a real comparison at the moment.

Ulstermell0

I'm completely new to super 14s and watched the second half of a game on sat morning featuring the warrytahs. I thought it was pretty terrible especially compared to 6N or HC. I think the term headless chickens was reffered to earlier - constant turnovers, needless chucking the ball without any care of where it goes. no commitment to rucks resulting in yet more turn overs.

speed isn't everything and if you think it is perhaps you should watch ice hockey

Sundy

toomevara wrote: »

Fitness levels in league across the board are far higher, and always have been. When union went fully professional, most clubs in england just copied the training regimes of league or brought in league trainers...

If I could quote Graham Lowe of Wigan and NZ:

"I'm 49, I've had a brain haemorrhage and a triple bypass and I could still go out and play a reasonable game of rugby union. But I wouldn't last 30 seconds in league."

I wouldnt put too much faith in a quote made by a former league coach in what is clearly a dig at union. Quote me a fitness coach who has worked in both league and union and il belive you.

RuggieBear

without turning this into a league/union flamefest...when i league player is fit enough to run around all game after scrummaging properly i'll listen to them.

Sangre

JWAD wrote: »

There'll be less emphasis on bulking up to silly levels and more on physical and aerobic conditioning when the majority of these laws work their way into the game globally.

toomevara wrote: »

Fitness levels in league across the board are far higher, and always have been. When union went fully professional, most clubs in england just copied the training regimes of league or brought in league trainers...

If league is so demanding then how come they're all massive? This is a serious question. (I know these are two different posters)

JWAD

RuggieBear wrote: »

without turning this into a league/union flamefest...when i league player is fit enough to run around all game after scrummaging properly i'll listen to them.

When said prop has to play a game of RL and even allowing for interchanges, have a listen then. Can you imagine the two Jones' playing RL?

Not my intention to go code v code. In fact, all this talk of the game turning into RL is way overreactionary in my view. The only similarities I see between the codes apart from the shape of the ball is the role of the winger. Different games with different ways or restarting and different ways of breaking the lines.

JWAD

Sangre wrote: »

If league is so demanding then how come they're all massive? This is a serious question. (I know these are two different posters)

They're not. Different positions require different skillset. Joey Johns, Billy Slater and Darren Lockyer aren't the biggest fellas to ever take the field.

Pinetree Boy

toomevara wrote: »

Fitness levels in league across the board are far higher, and always have been. When union went fully professional, most clubs in england just copied the training regimes of league or brought in league trainers...

If I could quote Graham Lowe of Wigan and NZ:

"I'm 49, I've had a brain haemorrhage and a triple bypass and I could still go out and play a reasonable game of rugby union. But I wouldn't last 30 seconds in league."

Don't want to get into league v union debate but anyone down here will tell you lowey is notorious for his anti-rugby sentiments. Big inferiority complex.

As to new rules it is very hard to judge. Apart from the Blues game and the Crusaders most of the games were crap. But for mine this was due to the teams and they would have been crap no matter what rules were played. There is no doubt they will speed game up. Most of the NZ players have lost weight during the off- season and are talikng of 30% more running time on field.

The best of the new rules so far is the scrum rule. The Blues showed that the new rule gives some real benefit to a strong scrum and it is great to see some set piece attacking again.

komodosp

Regarding the pulling down of the maul, will this pretty much end the maul in rugby? As soon as it gets going it'll be pulled down so all it'll be really is a standing ruck...

toomevara

Sangre wrote: »

If league is so demanding then how come they're all massive? This is a serious question. (I know these are two different posters)

This is a massively common mis-conception among some union folk...There are the same physical differences evident on league teams as in union. Take my own team leeds rhinos for example...rob burrows, arguably the best scrum half in the world, in either code, comes in at 5' 5 and weighs 67 KG..while Brent Webb leeds outstanding full back is 5'8...and weighs 82kg....yeah the forwards are big, but they have to be....and they're also far more athletic/skilled than their average union counterparts....

I watch both codes up here in Leeds week in week out and the short answer to your question is the levels of fitness that top league players exhibit leave union players in their wake...and don't get me wrong i love both codes, so i'm not into the whole league/union thing either...was only taking the mick in me post above...

Gijoe

Was at the Waratahs/Cames game at the weekend. Was really looking forward to S14 but it was muck! So many mistakes, turnovers, kicks! and it was defence that won the game not attack as the new ELVs advocate.

The rule where the team can decide whether to take a free-kick or a scrum is ridiculous. the crums slowed down the game so much at the end because they took the option of the scrum everytime. If it's meant to speed up the game it should be free kick everytime.

Saw 3 games, all bad quality. Would much rather watch a HEC game even if it is at a ridiculous hour of the morn.

JWAD

Gijoe wrote: »

The rule where the team can decide whether to take a free-kick or a scrum is ridiculous. the crums slowed down the game so much at the end because they took the option of the scrum everytime. If it's meant to speed up the game it should be free kick everytime

Maybe you'd prefer the way it was?
A penalty kick for touch then when the tubsters catch up with the rest of the pack and finally arrive at the spot where the lineout is taking place, the referee will count those participating in it and then maybe (if the defence actually has counted it right) it might just get things going again........provided the throw is straight and there is no infringement in the jump or the ruck/maul which follows?

Lineouts can slow a game a lot more than a scrum.

il gatto

I'm not a fan of S14 to start with. I think the SH fans put too much store in the running and offensive aspect of the game they play. I think it has often detiorated into a shapeless mélee of running at each other, turning the ball over and aimless kicks infield. I only saw half of the Blues game, and I think the ELVs have exacerbated the problem (or what I see as the problem). Having said that, I've only seen half a match so far. In some ways it does resemble league, but seeing as that's more or less a completely different game, is that a good thing?
Maybe if the IRB want to make Union more attacking, make a penalty worth two points instead of three. It'd mean people like Paterson couldn't keep a dire team like Scotland in touch with place kicks and they'd have to try and score a try (for a change).

toomevara

Just watching The Cheetahs V The Force....how good is drew Mitchell? Now that's a genuinely brilliant full back. Still not sure about the ELV's, game very formless/shapeless, but I do love the 5 metre rule at scrums, allows for alot of creativity....

Stev_o

toomevara wrote: »

Just watching The Cheetahs V The Force....how good is drew Mitchell? Now that's a genuinely brilliant full back. Still not sure about the ELV's, game very formless/shapeless, but I do love the 5 metre rule at scrums, allows for alot of creativity....

Well i dunno he had a great RWC but he had a shacky game last week and has done some crazy things this game. Ref's are so useless its pathetic

toomevara

Stev_o wrote: »

. Ref's are so useless its pathetic

Yeah what's that about? It seems they've had hardly any preparation time with the ELV's...an embarrasing shambles at times...Didnt see last weeks Force game in full, but like the way Mitchell runs his lines...and what a turn of speed. Lets hope the Bulls V the Crusaders lives up to its billing...should be mouthwatering...

Stev_o

toomevara wrote: »

Yeah what's that about? It seems they've had hardly any preparation time with the ELV's...an embarrasing shambles at times...Didnt see last weeks Force game in full, but like the way Mitchell runs his lines...and what a turn of speed. Lets hope the Bulls V the Crusaders lives up to its billing...should be mouthwatering...

I already hate this Aussie ref has the most annoying voice ever and seem to know feck all about scrums typical Aussies.

Mitchell's fault is that he is a left footed and looks incredibly nervous when that channel is shut down and he has to clear so he runs since he cant kick with his right foot

toomevara

I know the Bulls are understrength and their appalling indiscipline didn't do 'em much good, but the Crusaders look the business...alot of pent up WC frustration in there I think. Carter Magnificent again....

Grid.

Can't understand the SA teams 'Saders and Blues destroyed them, thought the Bulls would show some pride at Loftus!!Lions were brutal!! Sharks have a great team on paper but I don't know what to think now! Obviously the ELV's don't help the Saffer forwards but jeez didn't think they'd go to pieces!!:eek:

EdgarAllenPoo

The point of the ELVS is to speed up the game and make it more flowing, correct? I think after three weeks it has been a failure. There seem to be way to many handling errors that weren't so abundant in last years competition. I think the ony aspect of the new laws that should be continued is the full/half penalty aspect. that does keep the game flowing a good bit. The rest are useless and the endless kicking is just time wasting nonsense.

Stev_o

GDM wrote: »

The point of the ELVS is to speed up the game and make it more flowing, correct? I think after three weeks it has been a failure. There seem to be way to many handling errors that weren't so abundant in last years competition. I think the ony aspect of the new laws that should be continued is the full/half penalty aspect. that does keep the game flowing a good bit. The rest are useless and the endless kicking is just time wasting nonsense.

Compare them to a the Gloucester vs Harlequins match today and they are made look stupid. Game was played at a extremely high temp with both sides wanting to play, quick taps and all were going on and a rollercoast of a match with each side going up for peroids of the match.

I mean regardless of the EVL's teams will play high tempo rugby when its nice and sunny what will happen if they try play EVL's in the pouring rain?

EdgarAllenPoo

I actually forgot to mention that game, it was a brilliant game and from the way tapped a lot of the penalties it was like they were playing with some of the ELVS which emphasises my point, the only one of the ELVS that's anyway useful is the penalty aspect.

crook

GDM wrote: »

What have you thought of it so far especially with the new rule variations?

Personally while Super 14 has always been played at a faster pace than European rugby I thought the games were even faster than nomal which is a good thing.

Tap and go seems to be the order of the day which I think will seriously favour teams with a decent backline and backrow.

The new laws have speed the game up, there's not as many penalties as there was last year, and the free kicks are being taken pretty fast, all in all, it's good for the game in my humble opinion..

toomevara

crook wrote: »

The new laws have speed the game up, there's not as many penalties as there was last year, and the free kicks are being taken pretty fast, all in all, it's good for the game in my humble opinion..

Personally don't like it, way too loose...one of the key ELV laws which they haven't introduced to the S14 is allowing players on their feet to compete for the ball on the floor in the ruck, think its key to the success of the rules otherwise the game becomes imbalanced....

The breakdown is powderpuff stuff in the s14....After a few s14 games this weekend I watched Quins V Gloucester yesterday and the contrast between both styles is marked with the Guinness premiership game being much, much more physical,structured and, imo,...watchable

davyjose

RuggieBear wrote: »

Ah J but you love rugby league. Most of us don't. IMO the new laws are a sop to the Aussie love of League.

I agree with Toome's assessment tbh. I thought the s14 games were awful.

Just watched a reply of the Crusaders/Force game now. Decent game, but I dunno, no real spirit. You get the feeling someone like Munster or Wasps would take them to school in terms of pure blood n guts.

RuggieBear

tbh that was the best game i've seen under these new laws. And i won money on it...just!