Help with a poker "tic"

NickyOD

Before I explain this post I'm asking to please go easy on me as I just turned 30 as of Midnight.

Basically I have an issue with my on-line game that has begun to frighten and irritate me considerably.

This started about nine months ago. I don't know why or how it began, but I know that it was never there before. I have played online for what must be at least six or seven years now and I've been a winning player for five years. For over two years now on-line poker has made up about 60-80% of my overall income. Sometimes it's my only income for several months. I've never been a big winner. I pay the bills and put some money in the bank. I live relatively comfortably. (I make more than I used to make in my IT job but not twice as much) Some months are tough, and I've certainly had my low points over the last few years but in general I do quite well. I've never had a month where I've made a really huge amount of money but I haven't had a losing month since April last year and I didn't have a losing week between June and November.

I go through phases where I play a different type of game. It could be STTS for a couple of months or it could be cash games, tournaments, even PL Omaha and some limit holdem. STTs and NL cash games are my main preference, leaning more towards cash games as I want to climb stakes and start making serious money.

April last year I developed what I've come to call a poker "tic". I'm comparing it to someone who has a physical tic that they're unable to control. I feel that's the bast way to explain it as I've come to feel that I don't actually have any control over it. I SHOULD but I don't seem to.

This problem only ever happens in on-line NL cash games. I have never had this problem in STTs, or tournaments and never in live poker, not even cash games.

Another thing that is true of the problem is that it never happens early in the session. It's aways at least an hour and a half into it, although sometimes it happens just after I've taken a short break in the session and I've come back to the same tables.

Basically I tend to play very well (by my standards) for the first part of the session and then I have a brain-snap in one hand and dump my chips on a bluff and this is regularly followed by a second brain-snap within the next ten hands on one of my other tables. (I usually four-table)

About two hours into a recent $2-$4 session where I was up $350 playing VERy tight and was feeling very comfortable on all my tabels, I raise from the small blind with K-Jo. The BB is an excellent player and a big winner. Very solid. I have over 500 hands recorded against him and I've never seen him get caught bluffing. He re-raises my raise by quite a bit. I call. The flop is 2-3-5 with two spades. I don't have any spades. I check. He bets 2/3 the pot. There is absolutely no reason for me to believe I can win this pot with a move and every reason given what I've seen of this play to fold, in fact I should never have called pre-flop anyway. I go all-in. He calls with Tens.

Two minutes later on another table. A tight player and a decent one who is definitely a winner raises on the button and I re-raise from the big blind with AJo. Nothing wrong really with my play so far. He calls. The flop is Q-10-3 all clubs and I have the Jack of clubs. At this point I should probably check fold, but I lead out for about 3/4 the pot. He moves all in. I have a Jack high flush draw and gut-shot and an over-card, all of which may not be live and I'm getting no-where near the right odds to call, but I DO call. He has Ace-Queen with Ace of clubs.

Now I can't explain to you why hands like this happen. It's like an outer body experience where I'm not really in control of my actions. If I see a player playing hands like this I add him to my buddy list, but if I know him better I label him as a total Jeckil and Hyde and wonder wtf happened.

It's not like me at all to play hands so terribly and I never do it early in the session but this has been happening now for some time and at the beginning of the session I consciously say to myself, no more nonsense like the last time and then I do it again and again. At $1-$2 I got away with it because I would still beat the game well overall despite the mistakes and because the players just weren't good enough to punish me when I lost my head. At $2-$4 I'm breaking even so far this year because there aren't so many fish and I always seem to have my brain-snap/poker tic or whatever you want to call it at the worst posible time. I'm getting called by worse hand almost 100% of the time when it happens. I did it against Quads twice last week.

I'm estimating that over the last year this strange habit has cost me about $15,000 to $20,000.

Does anyone have any advice as to how I might learn to control this problem?

gondorff

LSD is a very puzzling substance. That said, I believe that it is either the cause or the cure of this particular ailment.

nicnicnic

NickyOD wrote: »

Before I explain this post I'm asking to please go easy on me as I just turned 30 as of Midnight.

Basically I have an issue with my on-line game that has begun to frighten and irritate me considerably.

This started about nine months ago. I don't know why or how it began, but I know that it was never there before. I have played online for what must be at least six or seven years now and I've been a winning player for five years. For over two years now on-line poker has made up about 60-80% of my overall income. Sometimes it's my only income for several months. I've never been a big winner. I pay the bills and put some money in the bank. I live relatively comfortably. (I make more than I used to make in my IT job but not twice as much) Some months are tough, and I've certainly had my low points over the last few years but in general I do quite well. I've never had a month where I've made a really huge amount of money but I haven't had a losing month since April last year and I didn't have a losing week between June and November.

I go through phases where I play a different type of game. It could be STTS for a couple of months or it could be cash games, tournaments, even PL Omaha and some limit holdem. STTs and NL cash games are my main preference, leaning more towards cash games as I want to climb stakes and start making serious money.

April last year I developed what I've come to call a poker "tic". I'm comparing it to someone who has a physical tic that they're unable to control. I feel that's the bast way to explain it as I've come to feel that I don't actually have any control over it. I SHOULD but I don't seem to.

This problem only ever happens in on-line NL cash games. I have never had this problem in STTs, or tournaments and never in live poker, not even cash games.

Another thing that is true of the problem is that it never happens early in the session. It's aways at least an hour and a half into it, although sometimes it happens just after I've taken a short break in the session and I've come back to the same tables.

Basically I tend to play very well (by my standards) for the first part of the session and then I have a brain-snap in one hand and dump my chips on a bluff and this is regularly followed by a second brain-snap within the next ten hands on one of my other tables. (I usually four-table)

About two hours into a recent $2-$4 session where I was up $350 playing VERy tight and was feeling very comfortable on all my tabels, I raise from the small blind with K-Jo. The BB is an excellent player and a big winner. Very solid. I have over 500 hands recorded against him and I've never seen him get caught bluffing. He re-raises my raise by quite a bit. I call. The flop is 2-3-5 with two spades. I don't have any spades. I check. He bets 2/3 the pot. There is absolutely no reason for me to believe I can win this pot with a move and every reason given what I've seen of this play to fold, in fact I should never have called pre-flop anyway. I go all-in. He calls with Tens.

Two minutes later on another table. A tight player and a decent one who is definitely a winner raises on the button and I re-raise from the big blind with AJo. Nothing wrong really with my play so far. He calls. The flop is Q-10-3 all clubs and I have the Jack of clubs. At this point I should probably check fold, but I lead out for about 3/4 the pot. He moves all in. I have a Jack high flush draw and gut-shot and an over-card, all of which may not be live and I'm getting no-where near the right odds to call, but I DO call. He has Ace-Queen with Ace of clubs.

Now I can't explain to you why hands like this happen. It's like an outer body experience where I'm not really in control of my actions. If I see a player playing hands like this I add him to my buddy list, but if I know him better I label him as a total Jeckil and Hyde and wonder wtf happened.

It's not like me at all to play hands so terribly and I never do it early in the session but this has been happening now for some time and at the beginning of the session I consciously say to myself, no more nonsense like the last time and then I do it again and again. At $1-$2 I got away with it because I would still beat the game well overall despite the mistakes and because the players just weren't good enough to punish me when I lost my head. At $2-$4 I'm breaking even so far this year because there aren't so many fish and I always seem to have my brain-snap/poker tic or whatever you want to call it at the worst posible time. I'm getting called by worse hand almost 100% of the time when it happens. I did it against Quads twice last week.

I'm estimating that over the last year this strange habit has cost me about $15,000 to $20,000.

Does anyone have any advice as to how I might learn to control this problem?

I'd say see a sports psychologist and if that doesnt work then a priest

NickyOD

nicnicnic wrote: »

and if that doesnt work then a priest

which religion?

BobSloane

Stop playing after an hour and 29 minutes..?

I had a bad month in january and going thru pokertracker found that sessions over 300 hands tended to go a bit pear shaped. Tiredness, monotony whatever it is - i'm quite sure you're not alone. Also you say its cost you 15-20k but has surely helped get you looked up light - and some of these retardedly aggressive plays get through and win you pots. You only remember the ones that went wrong

Chucky the tree

After an hour and a half stop playing. Take a decent break, when you do take a break what do you do?

bops

happy birthday nicky

often the best time to bluff is when it appears to be the worst time as described (bad board, good player, obv strength) you probably do this more often than you think, but it's the real ugly ones that you loose that stick out in your head

it's also not to bad for the metagame

gl and chin up

nicnicnic

NickyOD wrote: »

which religion?

like the guy out of the exorcist

bops

nicnicnic wrote: »

like the guy out of the exorcist

he would be like...hmmm...an exorcist??

nicnicnic

bops wrote: »

he would be like...hmmm...an exorcist??

the priest dude that deal with the possessed and sh1t

NickyOD

nicnicnic wrote: »

the priest dude that deal with the possessed and sh1t

but I'm not possessed? I don't puke green sh1t or anything.

bops

in fairness you do look a tad possessed - maybe worth a look at?

can you spin your head all the way around??

Theresalwaysone

Nicky if truth be told the exact same thing happens to me. Now for the amount of money it costs me as opposed to how much you estimate it to cost you it really may not be as important but the "tic" is the same and I have also been thinking about why I do it.

Personally I think it may be linked to boredom and probably a lack of concentration arising from that boredom OR the fact that you are growing frustrated over what has been a good session but not a great session OR the fact that you want to "move up the levels and make a good living off it" faster than you actually are. It could actually be all these things. Its akin to a manager of a football team emphasising that the team should not "force it" as if by trying to win you are actually stifling your chances of winning. I dont know if you've noticed this but I have noticed that when I am zoned in I have my best winning sessions. I may play but not be zoned in and have a winning session but not as big.

I would advise, getting some head phone and some music that will help you concentrate and play with no background noise only the music. If nothing else it will help you concentrate an awful lot better and probably alert you as to when these spewtastic opportunities arise.

nicnicnic

I have a brain-snap in one hand and dump my chips on a bluff and this is regularly followed by a second brain-snap within the next ten hands on one of my other tables.

this is a very serious matter Nicky and I don't think we should rule anything out at this stage.

Bops have you come across anything similar with any of your patience

bops

dumping your stack/s off with two stupid bluffs within a few hands? who would ever do such a thing?

nicnicnic

bops wrote: »

dumping your stack/s off with two stupid bluffs within a few hands? who would ever do such a thing?

my thoughts exactly, definitely something demonic going on here

Jesus Wept

I need an old priest and a young priest.

latenia

Try keeping your hand off the mouse and counting to ten before making each move

bops

nicnicnic wrote: »

my thoughts exactly, definitely something demonic going on here

i think you're on to something here!

Goodluck2me

latenia wrote: »

Try keeping your hand off the mouse and counting to ten before making each move

maybe not on ipoker, or you`ll lose a fair bit more - just try to think the repercussions of your bets more thoroghly.

cuterob

same thing happens to me in NL cash games..basically out of boredom and everything theresalwaysone said..not thinking of the money as more than numbers on the screen.. so i try to play more PL and limit games now

Pub07

I'm guilty of something similar. If I make a bad play and drop a stack, I'd get frustrated and I'd to be very liable to drop 1-3 more stacks in the next few minutes. I had a good january and one of the approaches I used was to get off the table the minute I lost a stack to bad play. Then I'd go back on later with a completely clear head which worked great. For the first time in a month I didn't follow my own advice last week and I stayed on the tables after dropping a stack getting it allin with a set on a 4 to a straight board. Wouldn't you know it within 3 minutes I had lost 2 more stacks through inexcusable bad play.

So I'm back to leaving the tables instantly when I make a severe error, it doesn't matter if I've only been playing ten minutes, I'm outta there.

RedJoker

NickyOD wrote:

About two hours into a recent $2-$4 session where I was up $350 playing VERy tight and was feeling very comfortable on all my tabels

I think I've found the problem, there's this little piece of LAG in you that wants to come out but all your nitty play is causing him to get frustrated and come out in spastic bursts. I prescribe some 35/30 play and a slice or two of birthday cake.

It could also be that you think you're playing STTs so you play tight and solid for an hour or so and then convince yourself you're on the bubble, don't worry though, a lot of people at your age suffer memory problems.

Primewise

i do this quite often too lol.. playing very tight then suddenly turn into a maniac on one hand

Ollieboy

When I read Nicky's post I thought you were talking about ME!!!!

I've do the exact same thing and have tried very hard to stop it. Because of this I've kept moving back to MTT's, but would rather play cash and make consistent money. When I've a bad month online, its usually down to my cash game where this problem as occurred. I've ran up some nice wins in cash, only to lose it the following month to strange and very bad plays. I just can't explain it, but during the hand, I just feel I can get the guy off this hand, so I reraise or push, when I really should be check/folding.

One thing that did help, was moving up the levels. The more the money matter to me the more I didnt make mistakes. but this is terrible advise....lol
I found playing 5/10 to be more profitable than 2/4, 3/6. But after a while the problem would re-appear at these stakes.

Would like to hear what Fuzz or HJ have to say about this problem, does it happen to them?

Its my biggest leak in cash games, online or live.

strewelpeter

What RJ says is close to what I have found works for me.
Far too often when I play long cash sessions I do more or less what you describe.
Obv I'm playing at a different level and not for a living but one thing I'm finding lately that helps meis playing different styles in different types of games at the same time. So when I'm playing pretty tight in a long haul tournament, I'll have one cash game open where I can let off steam playing LAG, Turbo STT's might be good too.
Similarly if I'm grinding at the cash tables I'll keep one window for a turbo donkament or satellite at the same time.

Primewise

Ollieboy wrote: »

One thing that did help, was moving up the levels. The more the money matter to me the more I didnt make mistakes.

this actually worked for me too. i was spewing at $1/$2 attempting to run over the tables when i was overrolled for them, but now I play more ABC at $2/$4

coillcam

I also get the same thing, unfortunately I can't really control it either.

Can happen in any game for me, it's not tilt or anything. I just completely zone out and end up paying off somebody or running a ridic line. I can't really explain it, my body just acts completely independent of mind momenterily(never going all in when I've a monster obv. :rolleyes:)

I've been trying some basic NLP techniques to slow me down and be more aware to what I'm doing when multitabling as I seem to go on auto-pilot, then auto-pilot seems to crash and run it's own "unique" lines.

I'm trying to play less tables and every hand I play I stop and say to myself, relax, why am I doing this, why is he/she doing that

---

> what is the best/most profitible thing to do and then act. It's helping me out but it's definitely slowed my game down. Hopefully I can integrate it properly into my game and add on a couple of tables, get back to where I was and move on.

nicnicnic

lol at all the people that get the tic, ffs its known as donking off your chips and I don't think there's been a poker player in history ( except HJ of course ) that isn't guilty of it from time to time

Doc Farrell

to be specific, in both cases you have nothing but believe that your opponent has nothing either. you want to win the pot by bluffing because it reminds you of the magic that existed in poker before it became a job,

the answer is to take more breaks and use your downtime more enjoyably.

that'll be 100 euro.

hotspur

Senility obv. Old man O'Donnell is right, it happens to loads of people. I would suggest you get more exercise, fresh air and get fitter. The simple truth is that many people just don't have the capacity to stay fresh mentally for hours on end due to their lifestyle.

It's not voodoo when Patrik Antonious and Brian Townsend talk about the importance to their game of being at the peak of their physical powers. Also it's no coincidence that many of the best players were very good at sports. Healthy body, healthy mind. The irony of the pro poker lifestyle is that it is not very conducive to playing good poker over long periods.

We all know that poker is a ridiculously good analogy of life. So get enough good quality sleep, eat correctly, get fresh air, excerise regularly, have sex, socialise and you will able to apply yourself better to whatever you do. In this case you will be able to concentrate and make better decisions for longer periods of time.

This isn't rocket science

jayhawk

This will be of no solace to you whatsoever, Nicky, but I have had a similar swing at SNGs at the same time as you and, switching to cash for the first time ever, find myself getting crushed by one critical bad decision for way too many chips, after a long period of conservative, modestly winning play. (VPIP: 16/PFR 7.6)

I must say that it is some consolation that I appear not to be alone here.

Some of these beats are of the inevitable 70/30 and 80/20 variety, with the money in early, often against short-stackers. In the long run, these will turn a profit. Others are speculative efforts with excellent odds. No complaints there either. My leak is almost always a failure of awareness: my opponent has me effectively covered, I have a strong second-best hand, there’s only one or two possible hands that beat me, I’ve asked the question, he’s answered, and I call or push faster than I can muck, oblivious that my man’s screaming that he’s got me beat.

I review these hands and wonder what the hell I could have been thinking. The answer is usually, inertia. I tend to plan each hand out in advance, which is a good thing. But the momentum this planning induces sometimes blinds me to the possibilities that develop as a hand plays out, particularly if my opponent is being uncharacteristically loose. (The rhythm one develops playing more than one table at a time makes it difficult to sense these warning signals as well.)

The great thing about cash is that coming in for a raise will weed a lot of these guys out. But not always. Let me know when you find the answer: in the meantime, I’ll look to play premium hands for a raise in late position against smaller stacks so I only lose a little money every session. (I wonder if maybe the answer is to just avoid almost all big pots when multi-tabling? Or whether there's an optimal buy-in, a shorter "stop loss" stack?)

I’m also concerned about the state of play at iPoker. At $NL100 full-ring, I’m finding a substantial number of multi-tabling short stackers, which is just fine in the long run for my style, but can be painful in the short term. More worrisome, I’m seeing a huge percentage of multi-tabling regulars with very competitive HUD stats, and almost no fish. (In fairness, the majority of players at any given table with established identities tend to be weak-tight.)

I’ll be giving Party a trial when the next bonus offer arrives.

In the meantime, a bright lad in the 2+2 Mathematics of Poker study group sent me this depressing message:

Post-legislation, many of the weaker players have dropped out.

For winning play, the best strategy is to exploit opponents' tendencies. As your opponents’ level of play rises, the opportunities to exploit diminish. “Maximal exploitive” converges to “optimal strategy.”

Preflop, playing tight is close to optimal strategy. But the rake is too high. If players are forced to rely mostly on optimal strategy, few will be able to overcome the rake.

So, I believe, on sites which still accept American accounts, fewer than 3% are winners. The dead money online is gone.

If you enjoy playing poker online, continue to play. But consider it entertainment.

dannydiamond

WE ALL DO IT!!!!
Poker in essence is gambling,we are all gamblers like it or not,some more than others.This is the gamble monster rearing his ugly head.
The first brain fart is the gamble comin' out,the second,and subsequent brain farts,probably tilt...
The advice of playing turbo stts' or similar in the background is the very best advice that's been offered in my opinion,let that monster loose on some10 dolla turbos,and keep him away from the cash tables......
Oh and happy birthday nicky,I remember when i was 30.......

Jesus Wept

AdMMM

It's not just a gambling monster coming out with me, it's just sheer stupidity usually. Today I flopped TPWK and kept betting into a rock who took AAAAAAGES to call. I know this as the oldest sign of someone having me beat. Yet I happily bet into him again on the turn and even then was only too happy to push another 50BB's into the middle (1/3 the pot) on the river where he snap called me with his set.

DeadParrot

I'm also guilty of doing this....
It actually got to the stage where I'd sit, lose a buyin and then play...
I'm a sick man sometimes