Matt Cooper - RSA - Speed Not All to Blame

Niall1234

Could someone please give me the gist of what is happening or happened on the show.

I heard it in a shop that the RSA admitted that speed is not all the problem and that indeed, the state of our roads maybe or worst problem.

Not able to listen to the radio so would love to know what the story is

pburns

Haven't looked but I'm sure you can download it from the Today FM site.
Bet RTE's Drivetime wouldn't run with such an opinion piece. Wouldn't go down well with the middle-of-the-road Nissan Tilda drivers... And Charlie Bird-Brain wouldn't be able to come on with his sensationalist 'speed-kills' bull...

Tipsy Mac

I'd say 9 times out of ten it's people drink driving or driver fatigue that's the cause of road deaths, just look at the deaths in the last month, almost all are late at night and after the pubs have closed.

mikemac

Listening now

From what I remember
88% of crashes due to driver behaviour
2% due to poor roads (contradicts what many boards users post)
10% Pedestrian and non motorists

Matt put it forward that our poor National roads are narrow and this is what causes many crashes.
The NRA person put it that personal responsibilty comes into it and just because someone is driving slowly or hogging the overtaking lane does not excuse dangerous overtaking. And if your on a back road then drive slowly and don't moan about the state of the road.
This guy takes sense!!

Interesting stat: 50% of traffic is on 6% of Irish roads.

They touched on speed cameras but more on inappropriate speed. Speed cameras are only a tempory fix and it's down more to education

mike65

The show can be downloaded later

http://www.radioireland.ie/lastword/lastword.html

Good to hear the issue of trees/shubbery etc obscuring visibility at junctions and roundabouts being mentioned.

Mike.

MarkN

mike65 wrote: »

Good to hear the issue of trees/shubbery etc obscuring visibility at junctions and roundabouts being mentioned.

Mike.

Excuse my language but every f ucking time I use the roundabout at the Halfway House on the Navan Road some fool pulls out in front of me cause of the FOREST growing in the middle of it.

In the last month there has been 3 accidents and at least 2 fatal accidents at that stretch of road in the last 9 months.

Then, with a kerb for protection, pedestrians walk beside cars doing 80 km/h along the Navan Rd towards Auburn Roundabout (another forest) but at least it is traffic light controlled. It is pure MADNESS.

Anyone know who the local councillor for the area is or who is contactable in the RSA?

Niall1234

micmclo wrote: »

The NRA person put it that personal responsibilty comes into it and just because someone is driving slowly or hogging the overtaking lane does not excuse dangerous overtaking.

It would be nice if the RSA pointed out that hogging the overtaking lane is against the rules of the road, considering many drivers don't seem to understand this simple rule.

mikemac

Oops, you're right Niall, the guy was from the RSA and not the NRA. So many state agencies so I mixed them up.

Oh they did point this out by saying everyone got a copy of the ROTR and pointed out the section about overtaking and also it's not up to citizens to enforce speeding laws by sitting in the overtaking lane.
At the same time tailgating someone and flashing and beeping them in this situation isn't exactly correct either

MarkN

Niall1234 wrote: »

It would be nice if the RSA pointed out that hogging the overtaking lane is against the rules of the road, considering many drivers don't seem to understand this simple rule.

Ask no questions... but this is a text meant for Matt Cooper.

"Its an education issue, i get tailgated, undertaken by L drivers and non L, no one to police the roads, bad drivers rule the roads, scotsman 20 yrs driving "

I took out the phone number but that guy screams to me, I'm going to sit in the overtake lane and everyone can put up with it cause I know best.

ciaran76

micmclo wrote: »

Oh they did point this out by saying everyone got a copy of the ROTR and pointed out the section about overtaking and also it's not up to citizens to enforce speeding laws by sitting in the overtaking lane.

This is not a dig at you micmclo just a comment....
Not everyone got a copy of the rules of the road !:( I am still waiting as are my neighbours.

I amn't actually waiting just went and took my parents one.

mikemac

ciaran76 wrote: »

This is not a dig at you micmclo just a comment....
Not everyone got a copy of the rules of the road !:( I am still waiting as are my neighbours.

Hey, I didn't say everyone got one, the guy from the RSA did. I'm not in charge of the mailing list so I can't say who did or didn't get one.

MarkN wrote: »

Ask no questions... but this is a text meant for Matt Cooper.

.....I took out the phone number but that guy screams to me,

Do you work for Today FM and have access to the texts?
If you can rig tonights competition and let me win I'll look after you

MarkN

micmclo wrote: »

Do you work for Today FM and have access to the texts?

Nope. But people seem to text a short code to Today FM for some reason and every evening, I get a load of texts meant for the Last Word in work.

javaboy

micmclo wrote: »

Oops, you're right Niall, the guy was from the RSA and not the NRA. So many state agencies so I mixed them up.

Oh they did point this out by saying everyone got a copy of the ROTR and pointed out the section about overtaking and also it's not up to citizens to enforce speeding laws by sitting in the overtaking lane.
At the same time tailgating someone and flashing and beeping them in this situation isn't exactly correct either

I wish the real NRA would come over and sort out the people in charge of our roads. :mad:

Niall1234

micmclo wrote: »

Matt put it forward that our poor National roads are narrow and this is what causes many crashes.
The NRA person put it that personal responsibilty comes into it and just because someone is driving slowly or hogging the overtaking lane does not excuse dangerous overtaking. And if your on a back road then drive slowly and don't moan about the state of the road.
This guy takes sense!!

Just one other point I have to make.

Why is it, that the Government and Government bodies such as the NRA and the RSA, always try to put the blame on us. As usual, the RSA tries to put 100% of the responsibility on the driver.

For example.
Person drives off the side of a cliff due to no barrier protection. "Sure, he should have slowed for the conditions"

This sort of thinking in the present day just isn't good enough. There are roads in Ireland which are just not able to cope with the traffic that is on them. Some roads out there are in awful disrepair and are left that way.

There are corners and such out there that are very poorly signposted, espcially in comparison to foreign countries. Take some bloody responsibility for once instead of blaming the driver for everything.

Senna

Not the same show, but on Talk radio today about 3-5pm, i heard the stupidest arguments for speed camera;
One person = yes there should be more speed cameras, cause i always see people passing out on blind corners
Another = speed cameras work, as i also slow down when i see one

The whole show was just an advertisement for the generals publics stupidity.
I cant wait till the 600 extra speed cameras are set-up, and when it has no effect on road deaths, maybe they might start looking at some better solutions.

gogs2006

i can't understand why the irish government don't approach other european countries for advise on road infrastructure,driver education and safety methods

we are least 25 years behind most european countries with a proper road network and suitable infrastructure

the uk were building a motorway network in the 1950s and were educating motorists for the new standards of driving.............

Seth Brundle

javaboy wrote: »

I wish the real NRA would come over and sort out the people in charge of our roads. :mad:

We employ councils & the NRA to manage our roads. The RSA exists to (from rsa.ie)

• promotion of road safety
• accident and road safety research
• driver testing and licensing
• vehicle standards
• road haulage enforcement functions
• registration of driving instructors
• driver vocational training
• compulsory basic training for motorcyclists

Niall1234 wrote: »

Why is it, that the Government and Government bodies such as the NRA and the RSA, always try to put the blame on us. As usual, the RSA tries to put 100% of the responsibility on the driver.

For example.
Person drives off the side of a cliff due to no barrier protection. "Sure, he should have slowed for the conditions"

This sort of thinking in the present day just isn't good enough. There are roads in Ireland which are just not able to cope with the traffic that is on them. Some roads out there are in awful disrepair and are left that way.

There are corners and such out there that are very poorly signposted, espcially in comparison to foreign countries. Take some bloody responsibility for once instead of blaming the driver for everything.

Who else is responsible? Don't you remember the phrase "Expect the unexpected" or "if you cannot see as far as your stopping distance then slow down"? I agree that our roads are crap but we can't always blame the councils or someone else!
FFS, people do need someone to blame!

peasant

kbannon wrote: »

Who else is responsible? Don't you remember the phrase "Expect the unexpected" or "if you cannot see as far as your stopping distance then slow down"? I agree that our roads are crap but we can't always blame the councils or someone else!

Oh yes, we can !

Roads that have no markings, no cats eyes ...or worse ...the markings suddenly end without warning ...just what you need at night and when it rains. (it never rains in Ireland)

Crossroads and junctions with lethal design flaws

Roads that have no drainage, resulting in spin inducing lakes in the middle of the road (again without warning)

Potholes you can leave whole axles in

Signage that either isn't there at all or so badly maintained that it might as well not be.

Speed limits that someone pulled out of a hat and that bear no relation to the condition of the road or dangerous stretches on the road.

Roads that have no verges and edges that are so eroded that if you cross over the edge in an emergency (wide lorry) you'll definetly loose control of the car.

Roads that have silly cambers that either almost force you off the road or into the middle of it

Roads that change from almost dual carriageway quality (wide two lane road with hard shoulders either side) to lumpy, bumpy 1 &1/2 lane borreen without warning

National roads that do not allow for two truck to pass each other without one of them pulling in

As long as there is a ROAD safety authority that is either powerless or unwilling to do something about those roads, it might as well be known as the "blame the driver for everything-authority" that it really is.

Rant over

unkel

Good rant, peasant. Now instead of us tax payers paying for county councillors to go partying in New York for Paddy's day - can you believe it :rolleyes: - let's send them to France or Germany or whereeverthehell to see how roads should be build

Rant over but brain still raging...

dcGT

Niall1234 wrote: »

Could someone please give me the gist of what is happening or happened on the show.

I heard it in a shop that the RSA admitted that speed is not all the problem and that indeed, the state of our roads maybe or worst problem.

Not able to listen to the radio so would love to know what the story is

It was interesting to hear Gay Byrne's recorded speech about speed cameras on the Last Word. He seems to think that these will cure all the problems on our roads. The best bit was when he said something like "I'm not finger-pointing, but it's the Government's fault that speed cameras aren't fully available" (May be badly paraphrased)

DC.

tinkerbell

AARGH I was so mad when I heard that discussion yesterday on the Matt Cooper show! There was also a motor journalist on talking about it, and he was the one talking sense! He said roads are a disgrace in Ireland, the only safe place to overtake is on a dual carriageway or a motorway since the national roads only have small sections where you can overtake safely. And then he said that what makes it worse is when you have (quote) "somebody up in front of you deciding that their journey is more important than yours and so dictate how soon you will get to your destination and are driving really slow, hugging the white line, will not move in, drivers get frustrated, and so try to overtake on those poor roads where it's not safe to overtake and that's when accidents happen". The idiot from the RSA was like "I REFUSE to accept that, it's all about speed, people need to slow down". That's bull****! It's peoples attitude when they are driving so slow that they should bloody move in rather than holding up a whole line of traffic.

I always do the speed limit that is posted on the road and obviously you have to go a bit slower if road conditions are poor / traffic or whatever, but I don't go out trying to hold people up behind me. If people have to overtake me then they are usually breaking the speed limit anyway but I still move in so they can overtake quick and safely. I'd rather be behind someone who goes the limit or goes faster rather than stuck behind some ignorant idiot who is going 60 on a 100 stretch.

Every time I drive up from Kerry to Dublin I see people overtaking dangerously because of a slow driver. I mean the drive is long enough when you can drive the limit all the way down but when you are stuck behind some twat it can make the journey over an hour longer (it has happened to me before). That guy from the RSA obviously gets chaufferred around like the rest of these big heads in these organisations. I bet if he was driving long distances like the rest of us, he'd understand rather than talking out of his ass!

Oh and the speed camera .. the journalist was like "people will just slow down where they know the speed cameras are and will speed up again". But the RSA still wouldn't accept it! It's pure sense, sure I see it on the M50 every day, people only slow down at Tallaght and then boot it up once they are out of the speed camera zone. The state of the roads are ridiculous. The N11 has a 60 speed limit and parts of it has three lanes yet there's an 80 speed limit on a back road which I travel all the time in Kerry. Maybe if we had duallers in most of the country there wouldn't be a need for dangerous overtaking or frustrated drivers. The only time you'd be going slower then is when there is a lot of traffic rather than some idiot holding up a whole lane.

dudara

This is a personal viewpoint, but I believe that the majority of accidents are due to driver behaviour. Yes, the road may be poor, or yes, someone may be hogging the overtaking lane, but the person behind him does not have to overtake, flash or crowd them.

We choose how to react to the situations we are placed in. Sometime those reactions are reflex but more often than not they are deliberate reactions. We are mainly responsible for what happens to us on the roads. (Not always, but mostly).

Mena

dudara wrote: »

This is a personal viewpoint, but I believe that the majority of accidents are due to driver behaviour. Yes, the road may be poor, or yes, someone may be hogging the overtaking lane, but the person behind him does not have to overtake, flash or crowd them.

We choose how to react to the situations we are placed in. Sometime those reactions are reflex but more often than not they are deliberate reactions. We are mainly responsible for what happens to us on the roads. (Not always, but mostly).

While I feel lane hoggers in particular justify the fitment and use of 90mm cannons to, well my car in particular, I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head here.

You make a conscious choice in your actions (for the most part) and sometimes these have dire consequences.

prospect

I, like alot of others, am of the opinion that there is no point in moaning about it. Do something about it...

So, in relation to a lethal cross road about 500yds from my house (rural road), I sent an e-mail to all the local council reps (all who are involved in a roads task group) asking for something to be done. I pointed out that my neighbour was in two serious accidents in the space of 18mths at this junction, and also in that same time frame I had witnessed/come across 6 other serious accidents. Luckily no fatalities so far.
Of the 8:
1 (the mayor) - Replied saying She didn't see a problem with the junction (WTF???)
2 - Replied saying they would look into it. (never heard from them again)
1 - Met me at the junction to look at it. (never heard from them again)
4 - Never responded.

During the elections, I pointed out the issue to all canvassers. 2 of these (both of whom were elected) wrote to me afterwards saying something would be done in August 2007. Nothing has been done.

So, now I am forming the opinion that these people really don;t care. All the government bodies want to take the handy route. Put in speed cameras (highest return on investment) and then blame the Road user for everything.

peasant

prospect wrote: »

.... Nothing has been done.

So, now I am forming the opinion that these people really don;t care. All the government bodies want to take the handy route. Put in speed cameras (highest return on investment) and then blame the Road user for everything.

Why would they care ...and even if they did, what were they to do about it?

As far as I know, there are no national guidelines as to safety standards of existing roads. Yes, there are specifications as to how to build a new one ...but existing ones? I don't think so. And even new road layouts still are constructed in an often stupid and/or dangerous fashion.

There does not seem to be a will in this administration to take responsibility for the safety of the actual roads ...it is so much easier (and cheaper) to shift the blame onto the individual driver.

mike65

Just to move this on

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bad-drivers--leaving-annual-crash-cleanup-bill-of-8364133bn-1282543.html

Driver error accounted for 88pc of crashes followed by pedestrian error at 7pc.

Road conditions accounted for 2.5pc of factors while the figures for vehicle and environmental conditions were 0.4pc and 1.9pc respectively.

Motorcyclists

Motorcyclists are 13 times more likely to be killed than car drivers, the report shows.

The worst month for road deaths in 2006 was January, when 40 people were killed in 34 crashes. August recorded the fewest number -- with 17 deaths.

A total of 99 people died in crashes between the hours of 9pm and 3am. These are "the hours most strongly associated with drinking and driving", says the RSA report.

The worst days of the week were Saturday, Sunday and Monday. They accounted for 207 deaths, or 57pc of the total.

The report shows that over the past decade the death rate, measured against the number of vehicles, has more than halved. In 1996, the death rate per million registered vehicles was 338. By 2006, the rate had fallen to 159 per million.

"NCT - ShmeNTC" We should be testing drivers every two years not cars.

Mike.

astraboy

prospect wrote: »

I, like alot of others, am of the opinion that there is no point in moaning about it. Do something about it...

So, in relation to a lethal cross road about 500yds from my house (rural road), I sent an e-mail to all the local council reps (all who are involved in a roads task group) asking for something to be done. I pointed out that my neighbour was in two serious accidents in the space of 18mths at this junction, and also in that same time frame I had witnessed/come across 6 other serious accidents. Luckily no fatalities so far.
Of the 8:
1 (the mayor) - Replied saying She didn't see a problem with the junction (WTF???)
2 - Replied saying they would look into it. (never heard from them again)
1 - Met me at the junction to look at it. (never heard from them again)
4 - Never responded.

During the elections, I pointed out the issue to all canvassers. 2 of these (both of whom were elected) wrote to me afterwards saying something would be done in August 2007. Nothing has been done.

So, now I am forming the opinion that these people really don;t care. All the government bodies want to take the handy route. Put in speed cameras (highest return on investment) and then blame the Road user for everything.

Well done for making an effort to make the roads safer. Unfortunately all you got was empty promises. I bet they'll just plaster speed cameras everywhere and say this will increase road safety.:rolleyes: Blaming the road user for everything is typical behavior really, it allows them to ignore the farce of driver training, the state of the roads, the ridiculous car taxes we pay, and now the soon to be lack of real policing because "shar we can just put a speed camera there". Muppets.

As for the RSA, their attitude is completely detached from reality. As another poster said, I'd like them to drive national secondary routes a few days a week and see how long they last before they get frustrated by a slow driver. Its also handy how they constantly mention speed yet never mention all the other aspects relating to accidents. Simple stupid soundbites is all the RSA is good for IMO.

peasant

Driver error accounted for 88pc of crashes
Road conditions accounted for 2.5pc of factors

I think that relation between driver error/road condition is disputable and depends very much on the assessment criteria used.


There are many examples of road out there, where a bit of it was upgraded at some stage, while the rest remains fiT for only a horse and cart.

So you're driving along on the good bit at night on a slightly wet road in the rain. The surface is good, there are white lines and cats eyes, no bends to speak of, you can confidently and safely do 95 or 100 km/h.

All of a sudden (usually without any warning other than a black and yellow striped sign at the aprubt end of the hard shoulder) the road changes back to the old bit. The road is bumpy and full of holes. Your car starts to shake and "dance", the ride gets rather unsettled, you apply the brakes to slow down. All of a sudden there is a sharp left hand bend that you can hardly see ...because the lines and cats eyes have vanished and the one sign warning of the bend is overgrown. You apply the brakes even harder to negotiate that bend.
Now is when you hit the flooded bit (that you couldn't see either)...your braked tyres loose traction, your car flies off ...straight into an oncoming car ...nothing you can do about it.


Now ...where is the driver error in that situation?

Was your "error" maybe to chose that particular road ...or that you didn't take the train?


But you can be sure that this accident will be logged as "driver error" and "speed not suited to the conditions"

prospect

To provide one or two vans (depending on the area) to each urban district & local council.

We all know most of these departments are already overstaffed, so stick two people in each van and have them on the roads 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.

What do they do, drive all the roads in their area and stop and clean (sponge & suds) all the road signs and cut back any foliage that impedes the drivers view of the signs.

They could also report any stop lines that need re-painting, or reumble strips that are worn down. And, they could log all serious pot-holes & subsidance.

Seriously, would that cost alot?

I.S.T.

I would love to know how the Garda filling out the accident form determines what the cause of the accident was. How does he determine it was caused by speed, especially if there were no witnesses? I am sceptical of the figure which says 2.5% of accidents are caused by road conditions. The RSA, who are a Government body, will go to great lengths to avoid blaming the road conditions for accidents. After all road maintenance is something the Government is responsible for. Wouldn't want to open themselves up to a lot of claims would they?

Niall1234

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

I would love to know how the Garda filling out the accident form determines what the cause of the accident was. How does he determine it was caused by speed, especially if there were no witnesses? I am sceptical of the figure which says 2.5% of accidents are caused by road conditions. The RSA, who are a Government body, will go to great lengths to avoid blaming the road conditions for accidents. After all road maintenance is something the Government is responsible for. Wouldn't want to open themselves up to a lot of claims would they?

Exactly. In my mind, the Government tries to put as much blame on the ordinary person instead of taking blame where warrants, to save face. They do this in all sorts of areas of society.

That is a good question ? How do Gardai determine the cause of accidents to be speeding without firm evidence to support this ?

Seth Brundle

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

I would love to know how the Garda filling out the accident form determines what the cause of the accident was. How does he determine it was caused by speed, especially if there were no witnesses? I am sceptical of the figure which says 2.5% of accidents are caused by road conditions. The RSA, who are a Government body, will go to great lengths to avoid blaming the road conditions for accidents. After all road maintenance is something the Government is responsible for. Wouldn't want to open themselves up to a lot of claims would they?

I don't think an individual garda stands to benefit by placing that kind of misleading info in the stats.
However, IIRC many incidents that involve alcohol aren't recorded because of family/testing/etc. issues.

Seth Brundle

prospect wrote: »

I, like alot of others, am of the opinion that there is no point in moaning about it. Do something about it...

So, in relation to a lethal cross road about 500yds from my house (rural road), I sent an e-mail to all the local council reps (all who are involved in a roads task group) asking for something to be done. I pointed out that my neighbour was in two serious accidents in the space of 18mths at this junction, and also in that same time frame I had witnessed/come across 6 other serious accidents. Luckily no fatalities so far.
Of the 8:
1 (the mayor) - Replied saying She didn't see a problem with the junction (WTF???)
2 - Replied saying they would look into it. (never heard from them again)
1 - Met me at the junction to look at it. (never heard from them again)
4 - Never responded.

During the elections, I pointed out the issue to all canvassers. 2 of these (both of whom were elected) wrote to me afterwards saying something would be done in August 2007. Nothing has been done.

So, now I am forming the opinion that these people really don;t care. All the government bodies want to take the handy route. Put in speed cameras (highest return on investment) and then blame the Road user for everything.

Contact your local paper. They are always on the lookout for easy stories especially scandals. Mention how someone who presumably has no experience in engineering (the mayor) made a deciaion on the junction and how someone will get killed unless action is taken.

javaboy

prospect wrote: »

To provide one or two vans (depending on the area) to each urban district & local council.

We all know most of these departments are already overstaffed, so stick two people in each van and have them on the roads 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.

What do they do, drive all the roads in their area and stop and clean (sponge & suds) all the road signs and cut back any foliage that impedes the drivers view of the signs.

They could also report any stop lines that need re-painting, or reumble strips that are worn down. And, they could log all serious pot-holes & subsidance.

Seriously, would that cost alot?

But sure there's no elections coming up.

AngelinaJolie

prospect wrote: »

I, like alot of others, am of the opinion that there is no point in moaning about it. Do something about it...

So, in relation to a lethal cross road about 500yds from my house (rural road), I sent an e-mail to all the local council reps (all who are involved in a roads task group) asking for something to be done. I pointed out that my neighbour was in two serious accidents in the space of 18mths at this junction, and also in that same time frame I had witnessed/come across 6 other serious accidents. Luckily no fatalities so far.
Of the 8:
1 (the mayor) - Replied saying She didn't see a problem with the junction (WTF???)
2 - Replied saying they would look into it. (never heard from them again)
1 - Met me at the junction to look at it. (never heard from them again)
4 - Never responded.

During the elections, I pointed out the issue to all canvassers. 2 of these (both of whom were elected) wrote to me afterwards saying something would be done in August 2007. Nothing has been done.

So, now I am forming the opinion that these people really don;t care. All the government bodies want to take the handy route. Put in speed cameras (highest return on investment) and then blame the Road user for everything.

Yes I think you should go the a local paper or national paper - ask your neighbour if he would be interviewed. Don't know the ins and outs but sounds like a great story to me!

ioshmearse

tinkerbell wrote: »

There was also a motor journalist on talking about it, and he was the one talking sense! ... It's peoples attitude when they are driving so slow that they should bloody move in rather than holding up a whole line of traffic.

This journalist was biased. He stated that 'its not speed that kills, its the sudden stop'. This has been used by Clarkson several times so who robbed this quote from whom. Sorry parent of dead pedestrian but the speeding car didnt kill your child - it was the fact that the driver had to apply their brakes quickly and came to a sudden stop!!!! and your child just happened to be in their direction of travel.

Its driver, pedestrian, cyclist behaviour that is responsible for the majority of accidents. If the driver in front is driving too slow, its your responsibility to overtake when its safe to do so. Slow drivers can also be prosecuted for dangerous driving but they generally arent directly responsible for killing other road users.

If the road conditions are not suitable for driving near the speed limit then deal with it, drop your speed and if it bothers anyone follow the example of others on this thread and complain to the local authority.