VRT changes.. ***THE CATCH***

MarkN

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.........

Spoke to someone selling a German brand with a blue and white diamond thingy on it in a circle, begins with B this morning... according to him and what they have been told at sales meetings etc

THE SPEC ON CARS WILL INCREASE, THE PRICE WILL NOT DECREASE.

For example, a 520D will now have a multimedia pack, a bluetooth kit, light pack, possibly sat nav.. as standard. Whatever spec that brings the cost of the 'saving of 10k' back up to whatever a 520D costs NOW.

rebel.ranter

Still good news in my books. No more poverty spec manual wind down windows, etc. On the minus side you'll have more people driving int rivers 7 streams following their in-built GPS!

maidhc

Basically most companies will be pocketing a fair share of the savings. Only an idiot would think otherwise. BMW are selling plenty cars at the current price, that only means one thing: people are willing to pay that price.

beerbaron

:rolleyes: I thought as much - still an improvement though

MarkN wrote: »

blue and white diamond thingy on it in a circle

Its a Propellar

kluivert

Spoke to a Skoda dealer on Saturday who said the same thing. Skoda will take their cut and prices will remain the same basicly, but this is not confirmed.

He said and I quote "he dont know yet". I find that hard to believe, i put that down to sales talk.

Anan1

maidhc wrote: »

Basically most companies will be pocketing a fair share of the savings. Only an idiot would think otherwise. BMW are selling plenty cars at the current price, that only means one thing: people are willing to pay that price.

Quite true.

Gran Hermano

So the new car buyer will get €10k of extras that will cost the garage
far less than €10k to provide - whether the buyer wants the extras or not.
I'd rather have the choice in deciding what extras are bundled but the
motor trade yet again find an opportunity to increase their margins and
profits.

prospect

MarkN wrote: »

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.........

Spoke to someone selling a German brand with a blue and white diamond thingy on it in a circle, begins with B this morning... according to him and what they have been told at sales meetings etc

THE SPEC ON CARS WILL INCREASE, THE PRICE WILL NOT DECREASE.

For example, a 520D will now have a multimedia pack, a bluetooth kit, light pack, possibly sat nav.. as standard. Whatever spec that brings the cost of the 'saving of 10k' back up to whatever a 520D costs NOW.

So basically, you are only realising now that BMW are robbing, money grabbing baxtards... :rolleyes:

MarkN

BTW before any of the anti BMW brigade get on the wagon, this is not just a BMW thing but in fairness, a guy buying a 520D on the 30th June this year and waking up the next day to find his car has depreciated €10,000 during his 8 hour sleep can not happen - the arse would fall out of the market.

Noelie

The car will still lose the value as a car bought on July 1st will have cheaper tax and a lot more toys.

John R

It's no surprise. Just look at the way prices have always been across Europe. In countries with high tax the pre-tax prices are low and in countries with low tax (such as UK) they are higher. They set the prices according to the supposed "value" of the products in each market and a lowering of tax just allows them to make a bigger margin within that price.

Anyone that thinks that the cost of manufacture+delivery+reasonable profit margin has anything to do with the consumer price is sorely mistaken.

RedorDead

MarkN wrote: »

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.........

Spoke to someone selling a German brand with a blue and white diamond thingy on it in a circle, begins with B this morning... according to him and what they have been told at sales meetings etc

THE SPEC ON CARS WILL INCREASE, THE PRICE WILL NOT DECREASE.

For example, a 520D will now have a multimedia pack, a bluetooth kit, light pack, possibly sat nav.. as standard. Whatever spec that brings the cost of the 'saving of 10k' back up to whatever a 520D costs NOW.

I have heard it will more than likely be half and half, in that if the price was meant to drop by 7000, the car will get a 3000 price drop with 4000 worth of goodies thrown in.

E92

Well getting 10k's worth of extras for free can only be a good thing, right?

Though I would have prefered to see them just leave things as they are and make the cars more affordable, and let people spec them up the way they want.

And how does this affect the larger engines in the 5 series range? The 6 cylinder models will only be coming down by a small bit in price(like by enough to only get away with throwing in leather for "free"), so are we going to be paying a fortune more for the 6 cylinder models? I would definately see that as a bad thing, it's not like the 5 series has a poverty spec these days, the only thing it really misses out on is leather.

MarkN

The problem is E92, the extras don't cost the manufacturer anything like what we pay for them!

So you are paying 10k for extras that didn't cost the factory or the dealer 10k to put in.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

Well getting 10k's worth of extras for free can only be a good thing, right?

They're not free.. they're costing you 10k!

E92

MarkN wrote: »

The problem is E92, the extras don't cost the manufacturer anything like what we pay for them!

So you are paying 10k for extras that didn't cost the factory or the dealer 10k to put in.

Well any extras be they optional or not, don't cost them when they sell them for!

As I said above I would have preferred if they put in some of the relevant ones that would make the cars more desirable like leather then I would see it as a good thing, but not changing the price which seems to be what you're implying they are going to do is certainly not a good thing.

However if you were to spec up a 520d now to what you will get ini 5 months time, as long as there is a clear gap in the price i.e. the gap big enough to be 14% VRT then like it or lump it BMW can't be accused of trousering the difference.

I have to honest, I would be amazed if the big VRT saving is simply translated to a much higher spec count, because the 6 cylinder models are only falling from 30% VRT to 28%(though manual diesels are going to 24%) and the price difference would be so small it would even be enough to put in leather and leave the base price unharmed i.e. the price of leather is more than the VRT saving for the 6 pot diesel Autos and all 6 pot petrols, so that would mean either the 6 pots would be very basic compared to the 520d opr the 6 pots would be a lot more expensive than the 520d.

JHMEG

They were talking about VRT on The Last Word a couple of weeks ago and a journalist who was on was saying that a 520D will come down by over 8k. The lad on from SIMI didn't contradict him.

MarkN I don't think your dealer is telling you the truth, knowingly or otherwise.

What happens to the cars that the VRT goes up on? Do they strip out the CD player and electric windows etc to get the price back down?

Biro

MarkN wrote: »

The problem is E92, the extras don't cost the manufacturer anything like what we pay for them!

So you are paying 10k for extras that didn't cost the factory or the dealer 10k to put in.

Exactly. I mean look at Xenon headlights. €1,500 with some manufacturers. GPS is another rip off, well over a grand, and up to 2k in some cars. What a joke.

MarkN

E92 wrote: »

I have to honest, I would be amazed if the big VRT saving is simply translated to a much higher spec count, because the 6 cylinder models are only falling from 30% VRT to 28%(though manual diesels are going to 24%) and the price difference would be so small it would even be enough to put in leather and leave the base price unharmed i.e. the price of leather is more than the VRT saving for the 6 pot diesel Autos and all 6 pot petrols, so that would mean either the 6 pots would be very basic compared to the 520d opr the 6 pots would be a lot more expensive than the 520d.

Well this is Ireland and we are talking about cars so nothing would surprise me. If the difference in price would not even get you leather then they'll leave it as is spec wise would be my guess. The consumer NEVER wins when it comes to cars in this country and I don't think 1st July will change that. This is coming straight from the horses mouth, the guys selling the cars.

Biro wrote: »

Exactly. I mean look at Xenon headlights. €1,500 with some manufacturers. GPS is another rip off, well over a grand, and up to 2k in some cars. What a joke.

Up to 4 grand in some cases. Sickening!

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

They're not free.. they're costing you 10k!

Well in a way they're free because you are getting a much higher spec for no more than you pay now!

Look, I'm not going to defend anyone who trousers the VRT difference, if BMW don't then it is as deplorable as anyone else who doesn't(though as I say they are not trousering any difference because they are increasing the spec count in return for not passing on some or all the VRT saving).

MarkN

JHMEG wrote: »

They were talking about VRT on The Last Word a couple of weeks ago and a journalist who was on was saying that a 520D will come down by over 8k. The lad on from SIMI didn't contradict him.

MarkN I don't think your dealer is telling you the truth, knowingly or otherwise.

What happens to the cars that the VRT goes up on? Do they strip out the CD player and electric windows etc to get the price back down?

Yeh you have a point there too but by leaving the cars going up in VRT - the dealers are not losing anything profit wise so it's not the same as a car which will have reduced VRT. The fella from SIMI probably just wanted to sit on the fence so as to not pi55 any dealers off/put prices in their mouths.

One guy who was in on this conversation we had actually OWNS a 07 520D and bought it from the guy we were talking to so take from that what you will.

E92

MarkN wrote: »

Well this is Ireland and we are talking about cars so nothing would surprise me. If the difference in price would not even get you leather then they'll leave it as is spec wise would be my guess. The consumer NEVER wins when it comes to cars in this country and I don't think 1st July will change that. This is coming straight from the horses mouth, the guys selling the cars.

I agree that the comnsumer rarely if ever wins, but there is the UK for a reason. The only thing people can do is vote with their feet and import those EfficientDynamics ones from over there with no price hike, and see what happens. In the US or anywhere else the consumer has a lot more rights but all we do is whinge, and whinge some more and leave it at that.

If you don't like what BMW Ireland are doing then there is only one solution: don't give them your business and buy from the UK.

Kafer

I was speaking with a BMW salesman last week in the pub. After a few pints he told me the 520d is dropping by 8,300 euro.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

there is the UK for a reason.

What an unusual view: that the UK is there to serve us with good quality 2nd hand cars!:p

Unfortunately only a tiny fraction will buy a car in the UK. Money is plentiful thses days and people don't mind getting ripped off. Some manage to persuade themselves that the more the pay for something the better it must be.

Ta me anseo

JHMEG wrote: »

MarkN I don't think your dealer is telling you the truth, knowingly or otherwise.

What happens to the cars that the VRT goes up on? Do they strip out the CD player and electric windows etc to get the price back down?

Of course the price will go up on cars with higher VRT rates. Of course they won;t strip them of extras to keep the price down. You're not comparing like with like.

Also, I fully expect that they will make a little extra on higher VRT cars. If the new VRT rate makes the car 38,907.45 euro they will sell it for 38,995 or even 39,995. No question. It will be like all the ridiculous scamming that went on during the introduction of the euro.

If you don't think I'm right then take up the challenge of noting the price of these cars now and check them again in July. We'll see who's right.

Dealers will without question add extras to lower VRT rate cars. They will value these extras at the same price you would pay if you walked in off the street and ordered them. They make a handsome profit from extras anyway. What they see now is a wonderful way to force people to take a heap of extras they might not really want and create a nice bit of extra profit from the sale. Only a fool would really believe that we end up in a better position than them.

I don't want auto dim rear view mirrors or auto wipers or headlight washers or front parking sensors or 3 foot alloys. I might take them for free or even, at a stretch, at cost price. There is no way I would take them for the list price. Now, I may have no choice.

Finally, this year will see some cars being offered with a whole heap of extras. Some cars will see the best part of 10,000 euro chopped off the VRT bill. These cars generally come with loads of extras anyway so it will take a hell of a lot of extras to make up the 10 grand. Next year, I guarantee that the cars will be offered at the same price, plus a little of normal year on year price change, but with just a little fewer extras. By 2011, we will be effectively paying the same, pre-VRT-change price for pre-VRT-change spec cars and the dealer will take the VRT saving for himself. Joe Public will never notice and those that do will moan and buy anyway.

E92

Hmmm from some of the comments here it seems that nobody is sure what exactly BMW will do. I've heard people say here on Motors that some BMW salesmen said that certain models will indeed drop in price, then again others have said they're not dropping but will have way more toys, or they will drop by a bit and have a few extra toys throw in. I would like them to pass on the VRT savings in full(they've already confirmed they will do this) and leave the spec alone, apart from fit leather as standard on the 5 series, and on SE/M Sport 3 series. The way I would see it is if they leave the spec unaltered, people might go for the more powerful engines, or people who wouldn't previously considered a BMW because they felt they were too expensive for what you are getting, or because they were simply out of peoples' price ranges, will now buy a BMW, thereby increasing their sales and market share in Ireland.

A sale is a sale after all! The only thing we do know really is that BMW have probably made up their mind and none of us know exactly whether they will increase spec by a bit and drop prices by a bit, or leave prices alone and put way more equipment in as standard, or leave the current spec alone, and make the cars a lot more affordable.

I would say that they will decrease the price by a bit and thow in extra kit as well. Just remember in the case of the 3 series they are getting rid of the 316i, at present the 316i comes in at €37,300, while the least expensive 318i is €40,650, so I can't see them leaving the new entry level 3 series costing a whole €3,350 more. And because the VRT rates vary from model to model with BMW, like with just about everyone else, the idea of keepingprices constant but increasing the spec isn't workable IMHO, because that would result in some models retailing with loads of kit, and others with nothing, and that would make no sense at all.

niceirishfella

MarkN wrote: »

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.........

Spoke to someone selling a German brand with a blue and white diamond thingy on it in a circle, begins with B this morning... according to him and what they have been told at sales meetings etc

THE SPEC ON CARS WILL INCREASE, THE PRICE WILL NOT DECREASE.

For example, a 520D will now have a multimedia pack, a bluetooth kit, light pack, possibly sat nav.. as standard. Whatever spec that brings the cost of the 'saving of 10k' back up to whatever a 520D costs NOW.

Typical effing rip off mentality of the importers. They will hold onto price integrity and give you more stuff as standard instead. It reinforces the justification of importing your own quality used Beamer from the uk with the spec you want (if you can find it) and not the spec BMW want you to have here.

E92

niceirishfella wrote: »

Typical effing rip off mentality of the importers. They will hold onto price integrity and give you more stuff as standard instead. It reinforces the justification of importing your own quality used Beamer from the uk with the spec you want (if you can find it) and not the spec BMW want you to have here.

+1. If only more people thought about things the way you did, then they would be forced to keep equipment constant and therefore drop the prices, which is what I and I'm sure everyone else here would like them to do.

MarkN

E92 wrote: »

I would say that they will decrease the price by a bit and thow in extra kit as well.

See, the sceptic in me just says that sounds too good to be true.

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

What an unusual view: that the UK is there to serve us with good quality 2nd hand cars!:p

Unfortunately only a tiny fraction will buy a car in the UK. Money is plentiful thses days and people don't mind getting ripped off. Some manage to persuade themselves that the more the pay for something the better it must be.

Well the SIMI are constantly whinging about the ever increasing number of cars we are bringing over from there. I think 66,000 cars were imported from the UK last year, which is roughly 1/3 of the number of new cars we bought AFAIK.

Did they ever think there might just be a reason why people would go to all that effort rather than go a few miles down the road to get a used car with dealer warranty and the peace of mind that entails etc?

As I say, the only thing people can do about this idea by BMW is to vote with their feet. As you might say: hate something, change something;).

copacetic

I don't believe this will happen as described Mark, as mentioned if they add 10k of options to a 320d coupe say to make up the difference, they would really have to spec all the other coupes the same otherwise there would have to be a different spec for every engine version to keep the prices the same.

I expect and was told that we will see leather and metallic come as standard on these type of cars and will get the remainder of the price saving.

It should also be noted that nothing appears decided and it isn't the sales guys who decide these things. We won't really know until we see price lists, and that won't be until mid march or so I am told.

Anan1

MarkN wrote: »

See, the sceptic in me just says that sounds too good to be true.

But decreasing the price by a bit and throwing in extra equipment is not necessarily good. What would be good would be for equipment levels to remain unchanged and for the VRT saving to be passed on. I, for one, wouldn't pay €500 for BMW sat nav.

E92

copacetic wrote: »

It should also be noted that nothing appears decided and it isn't the sales guys who decide these things. We won't really know until we see price lists, and that won't be until mid march or so I am told.

+1. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the salesmen are telling the stories MarkN described so as to get a sale now, rather than be stuck with cars for another 5 months. Others who might be a bit more honest are telling people to wait and get cars that not only be much better value, but far more desirable to sell on later because of the much lower road tax. Sure didn't I see an add in the Irish Independent telling people to get a new 130 g/km Laguna 1.5 dCi NOW(by Bill Cullen Motors of all people) even though anyone who does any bit of research would know that 130 g/km means 16% VRT and €150 road tax in 5 months time. Basicvally they wanted you to get one now so you could be driving a green car for longer and why not start cleaning up our act now.

E92

Anan1 wrote: »

What would be good would be for equipment levels to remain unchanged and for the VRT saving to be passed on.

+1. That's what should (I mean should in the sense that that is what in the ideal world would happen, as opposed to what is meant to happen) happen, but we will wait and see.

I don't want satnav as standard if I were to buy a new car, I'd much rather one of those portable satnavs.

Biro

The whole extra's thing is a pure sham anyway. The amount some people pay for silly not worth while extras always baffles me.
Things like cruise control and trip computers are being pawned off as great to have extras on upper spec trims when in reality it probably costs a few cent to fit the cars with them at the factory.

niceirishfella

MarkN wrote: »

See, the sceptic in me just says that sounds too good to be true.

+1 Bigtime!

Like if a 520D is dropping by €8300 - i'd like to see a list of the luxuries I'm getting in the car (after july 1st) alledgedly as standard whilst the car still retails the same price. This list would need to show the free stuff I'm getting and how much they would cost if they were options.

I worked in the trade and saw it all.......and this crap does not surprise me at all. This is why i service my own cars at home, I sell privately and buy privately quality used vehicles - and never give my business to main dealers.
It's MASSIVE a ripp off...............in STEALTH!

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

I think 66,000 cars were imported from the UK last year,

Virtually all 2nd hand.. 66k needs to be viewed against all the cars, new and 2nd hand, that were sold here last year. I'd say that's at least half a million (over 100k of which are brand new).

E92

Biro wrote: »

Things like cruise control and trip computers are being pawned off as great to have extras on upper spec trims when in reality it probably costs a few cent to fit the cars with them at the factory.

The worst example of this was the E46 BMW 3 series, either the cruise control or the trip computer, it may even have been both, was wired up and all on all models, but to get the buttons for it/them to work you have to pay some silly figure(though it wouldn't surprise me if others were at this game too).

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

Virtually all 2nd hand.. 66k needs to be viewed against all the cars, new and 2nd hand, that were sold here last year. I'd say that's at least half a million (over 100k of which are brand new).

I don't disagree with what you are saying but the fact that there are an ever increasing number of cars being imported means that there will be more supply in the market and therefore force down the price of used cars, which makes the SIMI's life harder, and force them to offer a better deal to us(at least in theory).

The Government will never prevent people from importing cars, because there is too much money to be made by the Government on it.

Biro

E92 wrote: »

I don't want satnav as standard if I were to buy a new car, I'd much rather one of those portable satnavs.

The portable ones are way more useful! You mostly use one outside the country anyway, and much good your thousand euro sat nav is sitting in the airport carpark in the dash of your car, when the €200 portable one could be in your carry-on, ready to go into the hire car!

Timmaay

MarkN wrote: »

BTW before any of the anti BMW brigade get on the wagon, this is not just a BMW thing but in fairness, a guy buying a 520D on the 30th June this year and waking up the next day to find his car has depreciated €10,000 during his 8 hour sleep can not happen - the arse would fall out of the market.

Well if he was stupid enough not to inform himself that he should wait a day he deserves to lose 10,000:p:p

But seriously though, its never that extreme, people will either wait until july or try and get a serious discount now, the people who chose to buy now accept the depreaction.

What'll this higher spec'd bmw here mean for importing a new diesel bmw from the uk post july? Irregardless of what bmw ireland do, I assume a basic spec Uk car will still offer a significate saving over todays prices here?

tvr

Fine regardless of what the dealers do, the Open Market Price of the cars will automaticall fall in July. So just import away and get the benefit of reduced VRT. Preferablty get a nice BMW, 6 months old demo with the 5 year free servicing. Then service it up north and show two fingers to the greedy bastards.

cancan

Haha - the irish consumer is such an idiot.

Funny how the options will have VRT added to them too. A win win for the SIMI and the gov.

Good to see bmw leading the charge as usual.

Watch the lemmings line up for this "great deal".....

If the other brands follow, it looks suspiciously like a cartel again. Oh when will we learn....

niceirishfella

ok, so we're not exactly sure if BMW will pull this stunt of not dropping prices YET and instead give us lots of crap upgrades we don't really need. But if they do, I'll be saying this to the boyz down in BMW -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssC77hapv0g

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

TheBazman

Anan1 wrote: »

But decreasing the price by a bit and throwing in extra equipment is not necessarily good. What would be good would be for equipment levels to remain unchanged and for the VRT saving to be passed on. I, for one, wouldn't pay €500 for BMW sat nav.

€500? I was speccing up one (3 series) recently and was including the ipod capability (on its own is around €500), however I said I wanted the idrive screen so I could see the ipod tracks etc. For this you had to spec Sat Nav. The cheapest option was the business sat nav for around €2500, however the salesman said that this one wasnt really worth having, that the professional sat nav at around €3500 really was the one to choose...€3500!!

Edit: on second reading I presume you meant you wouldnt "even" pay €500

Stevie Dakota

Jaysus lads, would you all calm down, it's only February, you'll all have heart attacks at this rate long before the middle of the year. Its all speculation at this point, and I'd no sooner believe BMW or any other company saying they are dropping prices any more than I would companies saying they are upping specifications.

MarkN

I have professional sat nav and idrive.. And while its good, it is not 3.5k good. Can't even watch TV on the bloody thing.

copacetic

just a note for anyone who hasn't seen the latest 'autoireland' magazine, not sure of the name but it is the one Permanent TSB put out to market their car loans.

The Managing Director of BMW in Ireland is quoted as saying the BMW 520d will fall in price by over 8k.

Seth Brundle

prospect wrote: »

BMW are robbing, money grabbing baxtards...

:rolleyes:
In all fairness, they aren't much different to any other company!

E92

copacetic wrote: »

The Managing Director of BMW in Ireland is quoted as saying the BMW 520d will fall in price by over 8k.

Not quite as much as it should be(though I will readily accept that my figures were using 100% OMSP ratyher than the more usual 92%), but that is proof that BMW are sticking to their word, and that the BMW salesman who said the spec of the cars will increase and the price will decrease was telling a fib(which I always suspected anyway as leaving the prices constant would reqiure several model variations, as some will go up and others will fall dramatically).

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

Not quite as much as it should be(though I will readily accept that my figures were using 100% OMSP ratyher than the more usual 92%), but that is proof that BMW are sticking to their word, and that the BMW salesman who said the spec of the cars will increase and the price will decrease was telling a fib(which I always suspected anyway as leaving the prices constant would reqiure several model variations, as some will go up and others will fall dramatically).

i can't remember the exact figure E92 but think it said 8300 or something. will have a look at it again and post exactly what was said, he mentioned the reduction on the 320 also afaik.