Feminism - Your thoughts on it.

Jules

There have been a few thread where this word has been thrown around.

I would like to have a discussion on what the poster of this forum think of it and also there views or how they interpret the word and what it means.




Serious conversation.. any off topic conversation/jokes/slagging off = ban!

watna

Well, I don't think it means getting the same things as men, or being the same as men. Men and women are different and nothing can change that. I would think of feminism as women getting the choice to do what they want or not what they want. I.e. if you want to be really career focused, have a senior managerial position and take over the world, that's cool, and if you want to stay at home with your family while your other half works then that's also cool, as long as it's the woman's choice and she is happy doing it.

Mostly I think it's about being being independant and having choices. You can be independent and still have a partner. With my OH everything money wise is 50/50 and I wouldn't have it any other way even if he earned twice as much as me.

Hmm, my brain is functioning slowly today. I hope that makes sense!

SarahSassy

Well for me its simple, it being able to do anything you want and not being stopped because you are a woman.... Feminism is the 'rebellion' against being prejudiced against because you are female...

Its not whether the man has the better job, higher salary etc, its about the woman being entitled to get that job and salary if she is good enough for it.

Its not about women being entitled to sleep around, its about women sleeping around when they can emotionally cope with it and doing it because they want to.

Some men will always think we are the weaker sex but some men will also judge foreigners, women who work, women who holidays without their husbands etc etc... There are prejudiced people in every walk of life but feminism is battling against being prejudiced against for being a laydeeeeeeee...

King of Kings

as a bloke - its about short haired men hating women wanting dominance in society.

for example women who want equality but would still back mothers getting majority custody in marriage breakup.
That kinda thing.

kizzyr

I agree with posts #2 and #3. Its about the freedom and ability to chose whats right for you as a person not you because you are a woman and therefore your choices are limited. I think someone who opts to stay at home with their children is to be as much admired (often think more so, as its one time consuming, demanding non stop job that offers few rewards..........good thing those rewards are well worth having though:)) as someone who makes it to the top of the food chain in a corporate environment.

AckwelFoley

Feminism is about serving the interests of women.

Its not as relevant in todays world, although there are of course some issuse neediing attention

SarahSassy

snyper wrote: »

Feminism is about serving the interests of women.

Nope its about ensuring that those interests are not ignored.

AckwelFoley

SarahSassy wrote: »

Nope its about ensuring that those interests are not ignored.

Potato - potatoe

takola

I'm actually interested in what peareds answer to this is. I agree with sarah sassy.

But in the anti-feminism thoughts thread the things said don't match up. They're opinions. Nothing to do with the definition of feminism above. If it's all about women having a choice in things how is you thinking wanting children is anti feminist? Or that being fat is unattractive?

So.. Can we have the definition of feminism as you see it peared?

SarahSassy

Definition from the webster dictionary

'the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes'

JC 2K3

Feminism - a phoney rebellion against a perceived superiority complex in the minds of modern women.

In realistic terms it's all about rhetoric with idealistic sounding terms like "choice", "independence" etc., with no well defined goals and little practical action or purpose.

Perhaps I'm too cynical and/or naive, but seriously, that's how I see it. What are women actually restricted from doing these days? And if they are restricted from doing anything, what tangible, practical action is being taken?

Gauge

I don't think feminism has anything to do with superiority, however it is a really broad subject as it covers lots of areas that vary very much from one another, and plenty of people will give you a very different definition depending on how it relates to them.

I read a fairly interesting book called Female Chauvinist Pigs which covers people's varying ideas on what they define feminism as. I'd recommend it.

Black Swan

Jules wrote: »

Serious conversation.. any off topic conversation/jokes/slagging off = ban!

OK, for once I'll put on my serious Hat and try to compare and contrast three positions (of many), but make sure you have your boots on, cause I'm shoveling it pretty deep.

Helene Deutsch - neo-Freudian professor and psychoanalyst that believes women are motivated (and feel inferior) by envy of a part of the male anatomy they lack. These feelings of inferiority allows for the domination by men. Largely agrees with the (male dominated) psychology of women, and essentially anti-feminist (although claims otherwise).

Karen Horney - feminist researcher, professor, and author that challenged the male domination of psychology, psychiatry, and philosophy about women, asserting that males were motivated to achieve because they felt separated from the procreation process and were attempting to compensate; i.e., they could not have babies, so they built buildings, gave birth to businesses, etc. This is the flip-side of Helene Deutsch's position and the neo-Freudians.

Corianne Hutt - researcher and professor that studies the biology of behaviour, in particular women's behaviour in comparison with men's, departing greatly from the dichotomous "armchair" arguments of Deutsch and Horney, claiming that the biology is different, therefore, the behaviour is different. It goes without saying that a woman's monthly cycle influences her behaviour, as do other biological differences from men. Likewise, male hormones impact on male behaviour very unlike that of women. Hutt scientifically measured differences in the brain between females and males, concluding that there were specialisations in structures that greatly differentiated the two. These differences were not "better," only different, therefore one sex was not superior to the other. Her research corresponds with the theory: Form follows function.

Of course, all behaviour is not biology, but it does have significant impacts that greatly influence what Peter Berger calls the social construction of reality.

I like the scientific position of Hutt, as well as the saying attributed to the French, "Viva la difference!" between the sexes.

Peared

Takola its not up to me to define feminism. There would be holes found and picked in whatever I came up with. My thread concerned other womens ideas of what is anti feminist. That is to say opinions which have caused other women to level that accusation at me. I believe the word has taken on a life of its own at this stage and one womans understanding of it can be miles away from the others. I have at no stage claimed to be either a feminist or anti feminist. At worst I made a thread with a misleading title. While I accept responsibility for that thread I do not accept it for the opinions contained within it. I thought it would be an interesting subject for the very reason that all our definitions would vary so much.

Blush_01

I think Feminism is a bit sticky really. It's easy, as a woman, to declare that anything I do is done in the name of feminism, even if it's unreasonably biased pro-female bs. That detracts from the real purpose of feminism, in my mind, and unfortunately too many people do that. That weakens the basic principals of feminism. To my mind, feminism is more about equality than supremacy of either sex over the other. Like previous posters have said, rather than women being inferior in terms of employment and educational opportunities to men, as used to happen, it's about having the same opportunities regardless of gender. If you look back far enough in Irish history, women were on a more equal footing (femal Brehons etc.) than in plantation and post-plantation Ireland, right up to recent history. At the same time, some women take it too far and use the past as a stick to beat the present with. For all the chauvenistic pigs out there, there are verging on as many chauvenistic sows.

Feminisim started as a struggle for recognition and equality socially, politically and economically. However, today it tends to get swamped in physical appearance and grooming. We have sufferage. We have some different rights and responsibilities - I'm not well up on maternity benefits and allowances with regard to payment and time, but are they transferrable to men? Why is a mother automatically considered to be the most appropriate primary caregiver in the event of a relationship breakup, until proven otherwise? (And so on...) BUT the important thing is to balance everything. Feminism used to be a ladder constructed to raise women to a height in order to look men in the eye. Unfortunately, it too often gets converted into something to elevate female above male without reason (or is perceived as such) and as such needs a bit of an overhaul in terminology to my mind.

Well, that's just how I understand things - I could be very wrong.

Macha

snyper wrote: »

Feminism is about serving the interests of women.

Its not as relevant in todays world, although there are of course some issuse neediing attention

Not as relevant today?? Never has it been more relevant than today. Sexism hasn't gone away, it has just changed form. It has become more subtle when faced with increasing unacceptance in public and political spheres.

Ask any woman here (or anywhere else) if she has ever felt judged or pigeonholed because of her gender. I doubt you would find one who would say 'never'.

So I have the right to vote - does that mean I have to put up with builders jeering at me when I walk past a building site, making me feel extremely uncomfortable? Does that mean I should silently count my blessings when I go into a gym and get stared at when I go into the weights section?

Do not confuse legal equality with actual equality. May I remind you that when the EU passed a directive on equal pay in the 70s, Ireland asked for a derrogation - we didn't want women to have equal pay- sure jesus, why would we want that? The EU told us we must be having a laugh & ordered us to implement the legislation.

Feminism is as relevant as it ever has been.

JC 2K3

taconnol wrote: »

Ask any woman here (or anywhere else) if she has ever felt judged or pigeonholed because of her gender. I doubt you would find one who would say 'never'.

You could ask men the same, and they'd probably only say "never" to adhere to a societal perception that they feel they have to uphold.

taconnol wrote: »

So I have the right to vote - does that mean I have to put up with builders jeering at me when I walk past a building site, making me feel extremely uncomfortable? Does that mean I should silently count my blessings when I go into a gym and get stared at when I go into the weights section?

That's so trivial.... I sometimes get jeered at when I walk past a group of scumbags and am made feel uncomfortable, I don't overanalyse and overreact to the situation and determine that I'm being discriminated against due to some personal attribute. People of both genders have to face unecessary abuse everyday, it's a sad fact of life, and perhaps there should be some activism against such societal behavior, but such abuse and uncomfortable situations are certainly not something exclusive to women.

Macha

JC 2K3 wrote: »

You could ask men the same, and they'd probably only say "never" to adhere to a societal perception that they feel they have to uphold..

SO basically your argument is that because in your opinion men are unable to admit to experiences of sexism, similar situations against women are irrelevant?? I'm sorry I don't follow.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

That's so trivial.... I sometimes get jeered at when I walk past a group of scumbags and am made feel uncomfortable, I don't overanalyse and overreact to the situation and determine that I'm being discriminated against due to some personal attribute. People of both genders have to face unecessary abuse everyday, it's a sad fact of life, and perhaps there should be some activism against such societal behavior, but such abuse and uncomfortable situations are certainly not something exclusive to women.

Please don't go down the classic route of inferring things incorrectly from what I write. I didn't say that abuse and uncomfortable situations are exclusive to women now, did I?

But I get a lot of comments, leering, etc in the streets and I don't like. And it happens because I am female (not some other miscellaneous personal attribute - straight hair??). It isn't trivial and it can be quite threatening, particularly if there are about 7 of them and 1 of you. Once I lived near a building site and had to resort to walking the long-way around so that I wouldn't face a daily barrage of lewd comments focusing on particular aspects of my body. My brother who lived with me? I think he was barely aware the building site was there at all.

Yes, scumbags can be aggressive but I'm talking about gender-specific discrimination - do you see the difference?

JC 2K3

taconnol wrote: »

SO basically your argument is that because in your opinion men are unable to admit to experiences of sexism, similar situations against women are irrelevant?? I'm sorry I don't follow.

Don't be a hypocrite:

taconnol wrote: »

Please don't go down the classic route of inferring things incorrectly from what I write.

My point is that the concept of feminism as you have described it singles out women as having a disproportionately high level of discrimination/judgement levelled against them as opposed to other groups of people. Such a mindset can create a superiority complex in the minds of women and actually hold them back. It is also not helpful to anyone who is discriminated against for any other reason. It would be much better to work towards universal equality rather than to try and remedy the problems of one particular group.

taconnol wrote: »

Yes, scumbags can be aggressive but I'm talking about gender-specific discrimination - do you see the difference?

Well I suppose different forms of abuse are levelled by scumbags against other people depending on gender. They might shout lewd comments at women, but not at men, and they might start fights with men, but not with women . But ultimately, again, it's a bit trivial. Abuse is abuse, it shouldn't happen, and it's silly to be combatting abuse just levelled against women, rather than abuse in general, against anyone.

Baudelaire

Feminism has bad name at times mainly because it's misunderstood, the an opinion that feminists are man haters (and there is one small section that would fit that discription) has unfortunatly become the overall opinion but the fact is that there is more than one type of feminist, some are still living in the dark ages lots arent:

Liberal feminist - The majority would fall here and all they believe is that men and women are equal and should have the same rights and that's fair enough, they're not burning bras or protesting about silly things, all they want to do is further equality and there's nothing wrong with that in this day and age.

Radical feminist - These are the ones that give feminists a bad name because within this group is a minority of lesbian separatists that would be the ones that put across the idea that all hetrosexual sex acts are acts of voilence against women. Most feminists wouldn't subscribe to that idea anymore but will still recognise all the important work these put in in the early days like setting up rape crisis centres, battered women's shelters and brought to the fore thinks like the possibilty that there can be such a thing as rape in marriage. They do the right things but at times can be to heavy handed in their methods.

Socialist feminist - Sort of different to the other two, their motto would be classed as all men/women are equal and recognise that it's not only men that oppress, women can oppress men and women too.

Postmodern Feminist - These see things a bit differently as in not from the point of view of men v women but more masculinty and feminity and how our patriarchal society can also oppress men or at least men that don't fit into the "Ideal man" opinion. Gender is seen as something that is performed like (sorry lads, I don't mean anything bad here it's just an example) some of the "real man" posts on GBRH or girls liking pink fluffy things as a performance of ones gender.

The truth is feminism of old (all types) has made it possible for women to be femine, pretty, dress nice, wear make-up and still enjoy porn and sex and still fit into the feminist idea.

Not all feminists are hairy arm-pit, bra burning man haters that want to demonise men, but now they have to work themselves to change societies idea of that stereotype. What they are trying to do is achieve social change where society isn't controled by Masculinity or Patriarchy and in effect some men will benefit from it too because some men are oppressed by the same things too.

Macha

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Don't be a hypocrite:

I'm not. I expressed my uncertainty over what you were saying with the question marks and the words 'I don't follow'.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

My point is that the concept of feminism as you have described it singles out women as having a disproportionately high level of discrimination/judgement levelled against them as opposed to other groups of people. Such a mindset can create a superiority complex in the minds of women and actually hold them back. It is also not helpful to anyone who is discriminated against for any other reason. It would be much better to work towards universal equality rather than to try and remedy the problems of one particular group.

Well I suppose different forms of abuse are levelled by scumbags against other people depending on gender. They might shout lewd comments at women, but not at men, and they might start fights with men, but not with women . But ultimately, again, it's a bit trivial. Abuse is abuse, it shouldn't happen, and it's silly to be combatting abuse just levelled against women, rather than abuse in general, against anyone.

Yes - of course I support the eradication of abuse, discrimination, against all groups - racism, etc.

However I disagree with your insinuation above, that disproportionately high levels of discrimination against women as opposed to other groups is little more than a 'concept of feminism'. It is reality.

The UN estimates that 2 out of 5 women will be victims of physical violence at some stage during their lives. This does not include other discrimiation in the form of lower levels of education, lack of women's health facilities, etc. Considering that the world's population is now well over 6bn, that means that over 1.2 billion women will suffer physical violence. That is A LOT of people.

Also, what I find different about discrimination against women is that globally, and in most cases on a community-level, women are actually in the majority! This is normally not the case with other types of discrimination, such as that against immigrants, gays etc.

Different types of discrimination happen for different reasons and I do not think it helps to bandy them all under one big label of 'discrimination'. For example, people who treat women with respect, may have a very negative attitude to immigrants. It comes from different places.

I think discrimination against women is inherently different to other types of discrimination - due to the long history of the discrimination and the sheer extent of it. Therefore, I do think that it should be dealt with seperately to other forms of discrimination WHILE not ignoring the fact that discrimination against other groups in society (including men) exist.

Please explain why you think that highlighting discrimination against women is 'not helpful' to other discriminated groups.

Also, please explain why you think that correctly considering yourself to be at a higher risk of discrimination due to your gender can lead to a superiority complex. Is this based on your own personal experiences/anecdotes? I think you're moving into the realms of feminist stereotypes. And surely the existence of a few self-righteous women is better than 20% of the world's population being victims of phsyical violence due to their gender? Really, there are bigger things at stake here.

Phew

JC 2K3

taconnol wrote: »

However I disagree with your insinuation above, that disproportionately high levels of discrimination against women as opposed to other groups is little more than a 'concept of feminism'. It is reality.

The UN estimates that 2 out of 5 women will be victims of physical violence at some stage during their lives. This does not include other discrimiation in the form of lower levels of education, lack of women's health facilities, etc. Considering that the world's population is now well over 6bn, that means that over 1.2 billion women will suffer physical violence. That is A LOT of people.

I was referring to Ireland/the developed world though.

taconnol wrote: »

Different types of discrimination happen for different reasons and I do not think it helps to bandy them all under one big label of 'discrimination'. For example, people who treat women with respect, may have a very negative attitude to immigrants. It comes from different places.

Well, I agree that it comes from different places, and occurs for different reasons, but it is all still discrimination and I believe it can be all treated as the same. Universal opposition to discrimination rather than single opposition movements against sexism, racism etc. would be a more sensible approach. The message that should be sent out to people is that you shouldn't discriminate against anyone, full stop, not just you shouldn't discriminate against women or black people for example.

taconnol wrote: »

Also, please explain why you think that correctly considering yourself to be at a higher risk of discrimination due to your gender can lead to a superiority complex. Is this based on your own personal experiences/anecdotes? I think you're moving into the realms of feminist stereotypes. And surely the existence of a few self-righteous women is better than 20% of the world's population being victims of phsyical violence due to their gender? Really, there are bigger things at stake here.

Sorry! I meant inferiority complex. I'm always mixing up the two.

the_syco

Baudelaire wrote: »

Feminism has bad name at times mainly because it's misunderstood, the an opinion that feminists are man haters (and there is one small section that would fit that discription) has unfortunatly become the overall opinion but the fact is that there is more than one type of feminist, some are still living in the dark ages lots arent:

...

Radical feminist - These are the ones that give feminists a bad name

Agreed. The way I see is that there is equality and feminism. Masculinity is seen as "machoness" which is now seen as immature or "out of date". Thus, there is the fight to ensure equality between the sexes, and feminism, which will want better rights for women than men.

taconnol wrote: »

The UN estimates that 2 out of 5 women will be victims of physical violence at some stage during their lives.

Does it ssay where? Ireland or Iran?

Oh, and until recently, if a man went into a police station to state that his wife was beating him, he'd be laughed out of the station. I'm not saying that there'd be more men being abused than women, but I am saying that men do get abused.

Macha

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I was referring to Ireland/the developed world though.

Yes - it's probably because I have lived in 3rd world countries that I am v aware of how bad it is elsewhere. Believe me - I agree we have it pretty good in Ireland relative to some places.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Well, I agree that it comes from different places, and occurs for different reasons, but it is all still discrimination and I believe it can be all treated as the same. Universal opposition to discrimination rather than single opposition movements against sexism, racism etc. would be a more sensible approach. The message that should be sent out to people is that you shouldn't discriminate against anyone, full stop, not just you shouldn't discriminate against women or black people for example.

Fair enough. I take your point.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Sorry! I meant inferiority complex. I'm always mixing up the two.

This can be true - people walking around with a victim syndrome. I'll never forget one day when I was in boarding school. We only had 1 TV for 80 girls (just imagine the fights...). I was watching the TV when a new girl from The Gambia came in and ordered me to give her the remote. When I said no, her reply was 'RACIST!'

Macha

the_syco wrote: »

Does it ssay where? Ireland or Iran?

Oh, and until recently, if a man went into a police station to state that his wife was beating him, he'd be laughed out of the station. I'm not saying that there'd be more men being abused than women, but I am saying that men do get abused.

Worldwide.

I totally agree. Men suffer a different types of abuse. And I think a lot of the abuse of men is more psychological than physical so it is harder to address. Also, there is less awareness of it and as well the attitude that you described above really doesn't help matters.

Actually, the only place I've really heard men tell stories of abuse is on the radio, where they have total anonymity...hmm...not good.

the_syco

taconnol wrote: »

Men suffer a different types of abuse.

Agreed. Where a man can hit a woman, she may need a weapon or poison to hit back.

taconnol wrote: »

Actually, the only place I've really heard men tell stories of abuse is on the radio, where they have total anonymity...hmm...not good.

Although being "macho" is bad, many men fear ridicule from the friends if they admitted to being hit by a woman (no matter how strong said woman is).

Pyjamarama

King of Kings wrote: »

for example women who want equality but would still back mothers getting majority custody in marriage breakup.
That kinda thing.

This is exactly what feminism is not about but the phrase has become so common place and used so much it has lost it's true meaning in popular culture.

Feminism is about equality not dominance. Someone brought up maternity/paternity leave earlier. I think it's a disgrace that it is generally up to the employers discretion whether men get so much as a day's paternity leave.

To say feminism is irrelevant today is also rubbish. Things in the Western world have gotten better but what about in developing countries - do you think their is equality worldwide? Hardly. There is still a long way to go in terms of every section of society being equal. It was not that long ago that women were not full citizens in the Irish constitution! Feminist thought still has an impotant role to play.

Feminism is about more than just equality of the sexes these days, it is about equality regardless of gender, ethnicity, sexual preference etc. People may say that this is diluting the original concept but it is necessary to broaden the scope. Women from different ethnic groups felt that the Anglo-American feminist school of thought had ignored women of ethnicity in their theories and fought back. Black Feminist Thought by Patricia Hill Collins is a good book on this.

biko

Feminism to me is not having to read articles like this

Sexual discrimination in pay and promotion is widespread in Ireland, a trade union conference heard today.

Speaking at the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (Ictu) biennial conference in Donegal, vice president Rosheen Callender said many people were under the misapprehension that gender inequality was a thing of the past.

"Despite all the hard work of trade unionists over recent decades, we are still not even accurately measuring the extent of gender inequality in Ireland - never mind removing it."

She said the pay gap between men and women was 25 per cent when the first European directive on equal pay was adopted in this State and that, 30 years later, it is still about 15 per cent.

Macha

I read an analysis of the gender pay gap, which discussed apprenticeships. It showed that starting from a very young age, women tend to be pushed towards lower-paid jobs, such as hairdressing, while men move into engineering and mechanics - better paid jobs. So straight of education - be it an IT, university, whatever, women are earning less.

Add in time off for having children and the difficulty in re-entering the labour market (lack of flexible working conditions, etc) and it's easy to see how women start to fall behind. hat's why all women should start pensions now!! Think of all the years you may not be earning!

Although ironically, it's due to the lack of paternity leave that mean women are the ones who have to take the time off after the birth. Another example of how Ireland's pathetic pigeon-holing of the genders makes it harder for men and women. Now in Norway, men have to take a month off and can be off work for up to 8 months.

Weidii

I've encountered a few feminists and to me they're about pressuring women into working instead of minding their children and making them feel ashamed for living at home while their kids are growing up. They have also tried to make other women feel inadequate for not having as high a salary as their husband.

To be honest, in this day and age feminism should not be necessary. It can be just as bad as male chauvanism.

ali.c

the_syco wrote: »

Does it ssay where? Ireland or Iran?

In ireland its *only* 1/5 so we arent exactly doing a whole lot better

womens aid website wrote:

Almost 1 in 5 Irish Women have experienced Domestic Violence by a current or former intimate partner or husband (Making the Links, 1995). And that's just the reported cases. It is likely that we all know someone who has suffered this cruel treatment. It's also likely that she hasn't felt able to tell us.

Reku

ali.c wrote: »

In ireland its *only* 1/5 so we arent exactly doing a whole lot better

Perhaps, but an increasing amount of that is female on female violence, which feminism has a lot more to answer for than men do.


Feminism was never really about equality, otherwise it would not have been called feminism, it would have been equalism. In the early days this was ok, as women had A LOT of ground to make up in terms of getting equal rights to men, however as more was achieved the more rational minded "feminists" were appeased and went back to living their lives. As a result most of it's more well known advocates these days are the hardline firm believers of the regular female mantra (I've heard this from so many women who do not claim to be feminists and it's always quite funny when they remember that I am a man:rolleyes:. Think the not staring at/talking to their chest bit confuses them.:D) "all men are bastards", e.g. Germaine "I wish I was a lesbian" Greer, as such feminism has no more a place in the modern 1st world society (though I can think of a few countries where though they are classed as first world they could do with some major re-education of the male population) than male chauvanism.

Equality is the goal but it must be a flexible equality, allowing for differences that do exist between the sexes regardless of what any deluded feminists might argue, fact is from a genetic level up there are fundamental differences and no amount of campaigning can change that. These differences need to be embraced and allowed for while striving to ensure that both genders have the same odds of earning the same wages (even now women in the work place earn on average less than men do), have the same degree of legal protections (a drunk man having sex with a drunk woman = him raping her?!? In fact due to the legal definition of rape in Ireland a woman cannot possible rape a man!) and get the same degree of respect in all matters of their lives.

Nevyn

Weidii wrote: »

I've encountered a few feminists and to me they're about pressuring women into working instead of minding their children and making them feel ashamed for living at home while their kids are growing up. They have also tried to make other women feel inadequate for not having as high a salary as their husband.

To be honest, in this day and age feminism should not be necessary. It can be just as bad as male chauvanism.

I am a feminist and I am currently a stay at home mother of two and have been for the last 7 years.

It's about choice not about the freedom to do what men do.



Feminism came about because men had the power to lobby and make changes that effected them and everyone esle and women did not have the power to make changes. We did not have the vote, that was achieved put there was still more to do.

I would love to see child care as no longer being a feminist or women's issue,
I would love for it to be a parental issue, growing up my Dad was a stay at home Dad for over 10 years while my Mam worked and I now 20 years later this is far from the norm which I think is sad.

I would love to see domestic abuse be no longer a women's issue.

I would love to see sexual abuse and rape as no longer being a women's issue.


Women's rights are human rights but it took women to stand up and start fighting for change and in may ways we are still not there yet as a human society so that these things are human issues and not women's issues.

JC 2K3

I don't understand that image. It gives a balanced view of the difficulties faced by both sexes due to stereotypes and then just randomly asserts that boys find the path to freedom easier, which sorta negates everything else on the image. wtf?

Reku

Also, if as the image claims:
"For every boy struggling not to let advertising dictate his desires, there is a girl facing the ad industry's attacks on her self esteem."
Then why are metrosexual males becoming more common as well as males getting plastic surgery for purely aesthetic reasons (e.g. Rhinoplasty), clearly men are being left with the same bruises to their self esteem as women, it's just that men aren't supposed to talk about it (just like with everything else, heck we say anything about feeling poorly and suddenly the ladies whip out the "manflu" tirrade:rolleyes:).

Macha

farohar wrote: »

Also, if as the image claims:
"For every boy struggling not to let advertising dictate his desires, there is a girl facing the ad industry's attacks on her self esteem."
Then why are metrosexual males becoming more common as well as males getting plastic surgery for purely aesthetic reasons (e.g. Rhinoplasty), clearly men are being left with the same bruises to their self esteem as women, it's just that men aren't supposed to talk about it (just like with everything else, heck we say anything about feeling poorly and suddenly the ladies whip out the "manflu" tirrade:rolleyes:).

You can hardly claim that there is the same amount of focus on men's bodies as there is on women's bodies in the media.

Moreover, many of the male images are, in fact, reasonably healthy images (strong, muscular fit) as compared to particularly unhealthy images for women (v low body fat, not much muscle, etc).

Crucially, the male ideal is a hell of a lot more attainable than the female ideal. What no cellulite, stretchmarks, saddlebags, pear-shaped figures, body hair, wrinkles allowed? I'm supposed to have an extremely low body fat but still have large breasts? This is an impossibility for 99% of the female population.

Yes, I'm sure some men do feel under pressure due to the ideal of men's bodies as portrayed in the media but for women it is 10 times wores - and prevalent. When I lived in Paris I used to count the number of naked or sexually displayed women I saw in one day (on the TV, billboards, etc) as compared to men. Normally, the ratio was something like 10:1. Go into a newsagents and look at the magazines. On the front of the women's magazines there are women. And on front of the men's magazines? Mostly women! (minus clothes, plus breast implants)

Moreover, women's bodies seem to be fair game for discussion/comment. Hence, some men feel it is their right to stare at me when I walk down the street, making me feel v uncomfortable. Or even make comments - positive or negative. I know I'm opening can of worms here but I also consider strip clubs & prostitution to be an extension of this assumption by some males that they have the right to look at/use a woman's body. Just look at newsreaders on most news channels. Old, frumpy man and a young pretty women. Whatever else you want to be in life as a women, you better damn well make sure you look good while you're doing it.

Reku

If the media were to be believed all men should have 6 packs (the non-alcohol container kind), for many men this is not realistically achieveable as it would effectively require living in the gym for the rest of their lives so it's not that attainable for most, and the body shape would require taking bulk-up supplements which are hazardous to your health (know someone who found out the hard way as he was into the bodybuilding scene). Then you raise the issue of body hair, strange the media always has the males with no back hair (some blokes do get this), and little chest hair (used to be popular in the media to have tufts of chest hair, now it's not for whatever reason) and quite often they seem to have oddly smooth legs too when shorts are involved.
Also it's strange what you quote as this female ideal as last I checked a lot of the lads fancied Nigela and she's not thin, and who knows what else on the list she conforms to, so I strongly suspect that the ideal is driven by women with their competitive dieting as much as, if not more than, it is driven by men. But then do you really think the CK underwear model is there for the men? Doubt it VERY much....
I'll agree that it is worse for women but then look at the kind of garbage that women tend to read and watch on TV, a lot of it is about celebrities and how great they look, their great lives, etc..., so in many ways it's self inflicted.

As for the naked men vs. women, while it probably is due to advertising still being a male dominated industry perhaps a part of this is due to how few males do actually achieve the media's ideal vision of a male. As for there being women on the women's magazines, that's women's own fault (even the magazines owned and run by women follow this format so clearly you ladies just prefer comparing yourselves to other ladies than to look at men, either that or prudishness prevents you buying ones with attractive semi-naked men on the covers) so it's entirely self inflicted once more.

Women's bodies seem to be fair game for comments? And which gender is making most of those comments about how so and so is putting on a bit of weight, taking too long to get her figure back after having a baby, etc....? WOMEN! So once more self inflicted.
As to lads oogling you, I've known many a girl to complain about lads checking out her ass and then 5 minutes later what would she be at except checking out some lads ass or torso, supposedly it's acceptable for women to do it but not for men.:rolleyes: So yes, men have a right to look at you just as you are free to look at them, or are we supposed to stare into the sky and all fall over one another? As for whatever they might say part of this is unfortunately down to women being so polar as a group, some love being chatted up (even with the most god-awful lines), some will slap you if you try, some love male attention, others will hate your guts for even noticing that they are female... so I think it's safe to say that the problem is more with the insecurities of the female than the fact that some guy is looking at her.

Strip clubs? There are ladies nights in those places AFAIK with male strippers so that's a moot arguement IMO, men attend them more due to it being more acceptable and higher sex drive.
Prostitutes, some women choose that life, those who don't need protecting.
I know women like to let on that they never oggle men, never get horny, never think dirty thoughts, etc... but it's all a load of BS, they behave like this less often than men but that's due to the fact that libido comes from testosterone, the male hormone, and to a large extent IMO due to pressure from other women (branding any woman who decides to enjoy being a sexual being a slut), making womankind rather sexually repressed. Since testosterone induced behaviour (staring at attractive women and such) is apparently not allowed then why should men tolerate women gossiping? As I said before, both genders need to accept the other for what it is.

Last time I watched the RTE news the female newsreader was anything but young, early 40s at least, yes, she might be younger than the male but then how long has it been since women were really accepted in the workplace and didn't have to quit if they got pregnant? So you're unlikely to have huge numbers of working women that much older than that in most workplaces.

neuro-praxis

(From my notes on a talk I gave last year: )

1.3 billion people in this world live in unimaginable poverty. 70% of these people are women.

Women work two-thirds of the world's working hours, produce half of the world's food, and yet earn only 10% of the world's income and own less than 1% of the world's property.

Women hold only 12% of parliamentary seats worldwide. In the least developed countries it can be as low as 8.5%.

Women hold only 1% of executive positions in the world's biggest international corporations.

There are 876 million illiterate people in the world - two thirds of them are women. Two thirds of school-age children in the developing world without access to education are girls.

Approximately 80 per cent of people displaced by conflict or human rights violations are women and children. Displacement, internally or across borders, is disruptive and dangerous. It deprives women of the security of their community and exposes them to hunger, disease, violence and sexual assault.

During armed conflict, women and girls are continually threatened by rape, domestic violence, sexual exploitation, trafficking, sexual humiliation and mutilation. They are at heightened risk in all settings, whether at home, in flight or in camps for displaced people.

Forced prostitution, trafficking for sex and sex tourism are growing. Studies on the trafficking of women and children estimated 500,000 women entering the European Union in 1995.

Worldwide, a quarter of all women are raped during their lifetime. Depending on the country, 25 to 75 percent of women are regularly beaten at home. Over 120 million women have undergone female genital mutilation. Rape has devastated women, girls and families in recent conflicts in Rwanda, Cambodia, Liberia, Peru, Somalia, Uganda and the former Yugoslavia.

...We have quite a bit of work to do yet before we have achieved equality.

Macha

Higher sex drive? Pff give me a break..

Also, did you know that the weatherlady on RTE had to sue her employers as they tried to fire her. Why? They thought she was too ugly! And so RTE learned their lesson and that's why we see older women on that channel.

As for Nigella. I'm not talking about what men are attracted to. The more enlightened of us realise that only a few men like very slim women but that's not the message from the media. You get plenty of guys who think that Nigella is even obese.

Look. Half your arguments are "It's self inflicted!" as if you're somehow trying to deflect blame away from men. Women are to blame for buying into the whole thing BUT we live in a very generised society. Little girl gets a barbie, little boy gets action man. Little girl dressed in pink, little boy dressed in blue. We are so socially genderised to fit into either the male/female stereotypes. It took a lot of mentally telling myself to snap out of it before I got over my obsession with the female ideal. I don't blame those women who can't.

In your reponses you pick & choose points that you feel you can successfully counter and ignore those you feel you can't. You have not convinced me to change my point of view

One last thing. Please get it out of your head that women 'choose' to go into prostitution. Go and read up about human traficking.

WhiteWashMan

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I don't understand that image. It gives a balanced view of the difficulties faced by both sexes due to stereotypes and then just randomly asserts that boys find the path to freedom easier, which sorta negates everything else on the image. wtf?

I think it means his own personal path to freedom, not that his path is easier than the girls.
the ending si suppose to be positive for both the boy and the girl.

make sense now?

taconnol wrote: »

You can hardly claim that there is the same amount of focus on men's bodies as there is on women's bodies in the media.

Moreover, many of the male images are, in fact, reasonably healthy images (strong, muscular fit) as compared to particularly unhealthy images for women (v low body fat, not much muscle, etc). Crucially, the male ideal is a hell of a lot more attainable than the female ideal. What no cellulite, stretchmarks, saddlebags, pear-shaped figures, body hair, wrinkles allowed? I'm supposed to have an extremely low body fat but still have large breasts? This is an impossibility for 99% of the female population.

I dont agree, still unobtainable for 99% of us males. But you know, we dont have to be like that, the same way that women dont have to be a size 0.

you must be listening to all that advertising.

taconnol wrote: »

Yes, I'm sure some men do feel under pressure due to the ideal of men's bodies as portrayed in the media but for women it is 10 times wores - and prevalent. When I lived in Paris I used to count the number of naked or sexually displayed women I saw in one day (on the TV, billboards, etc) as compared to men. Normally, the ratio was something like 10:1. Go into a newsagents and look at the magazines. On the front of the women's magazines there are women. And on front of the men's magazines? Mostly women! (minus clothes, plus breast implants).

if you can find something that sells a product more efficiently than sex does, then you can bet it will be jumped upon.

its not about body shape. its about sex.

BY the way, ever notice how the women in porn, and on mens magazines, are all curve chicks?
they arent size 0 women.

doesnt that tell you something about what men prefer?

we put chicks we like on our stuff.

women put things they can never be on theirs...

taconnol wrote: »

Moreover, women's bodies seem to be fair game for discussion/comment. Hence, some men feel it is their right to stare at me when I walk down the street, making me feel v uncomfortable. Or even make comments - positive or negative. I know I'm opening can of worms here but I also consider strip clubs & prostitution to be an extension of this assumption by some males that they have the right to look at/use a woman's body. Just look at newsreaders on most news channels. Old, frumpy man and a young pretty women. Whatever else you want to be in life as a women, you better damn well make sure you look good while you're doing it.

well, lets face it, you put it on display, someone will look at it.
if youve got a nice pair of breasts, then sorry, i'll catch a glance, why?
because i appreciate a fine pair of breasts.
not because i feel youre only a thing to be oogled, or devalued.

as for strip clubs, well, you pay for that. if someone offers a service, then other people will pay for it. i really dont see what the argument is there.

taconnol wrote: »

Look. Half your arguments are "It's self inflicted!" as if you're somehow trying to deflect blame away from men. Women are to blame for buying into the whole thing BUT we live in a very generised society. Little girl gets a barbie, little boy gets action man. Little girl dressed in pink, little boy dressed in blue. We are so socially genderised to fit into either the male/female stereotypes. It took a lot of mentally telling myself to snap out of it before I got over my obsession with the female ideal. I don't blame those women who can't.

In your reponses you pick & choose points that you feel you can successfully counter and ignore those you feel you can't. You have not convinced me to change my point of view

to be honest, im not sure what your views are, or even what your points are.

are you blaming a generalised society that the media portays women as something different to what you feel they should be?

how about making it easier.

how about telling me not what you dont want, but what you do want.

personally, my idea of feminism is more aligned to Thaeds. IM a big believer in equality, but im also a big believer that men and women are not the same.
now thats not saying unequal, just different.

Iago

I've generally just watched these conversations when they've come up, because to be honest I don't know enough about the movement to have a strong enough opinion one way or the other.

In relation to the below quote though;

taconnol wrote: »

One last thing. Please get it out of your head that women 'choose' to go into prostitution. Go and read up about human traficking.

I have known women who have been both escorts and strippers purely by choice. While I wouldn't dispute for a second the fact that many prostitutes are forced into the life, some certainly do "choose" to go into prostitution. There is a lot of money to be made both on the less dangerous stripping side and the escort side. For example I know a girl who would work for 3 months in one of the strip clubs in Dublin and take the rest of the year off. She'd travel or do a course or just chill out, the freedom to do that was what appealed to her and the job was just a means to an end.

In fact the very definition imho of an escort is an attractive, intelligent, opinionated woman who can converse in a number of languages with authority on a number of subjects. Again I won't dispute that this particular type of escort is in the minority, but can anyone really argue that such a person hasn't made a personal choice to do so? When we speak about street prostitutes I think we move into the realms of girls and boys who felt they had no choice for one reason or another but to get involved in that business. I find that sad and demoralising, but then there's much about this world that has the same effect on me. The world has gone to hell, but these things are cylical and it will turn itself around eventually. Probably not in my lifetime, but you never know.

anyway enough off topic rambling from me.

Crumble Froo

Iago wrote: »

I have known women who have been both escorts and strippers purely by choice. While I wouldn't dispute for a second the fact that many prostitutes are forced into the life, some certainly do "choose" to go into prostitution.

can definitely confirm that one. as i've mentioned before, my b/f used to be a gardener for a brothel and was quite friendly with the girls, used to flat with one of em too... he's gotten into a lot of internet debates on this same issue, that some people do pick it as a career thing. yes, there's a lot of bad otu there, and people forced into it, or it's a last resort, but it is actually a lot of people who pick it as a career. (prostitution is legal in NZ, btw).

Reku

To neuro-praxis, this is why we need the feminists to stop seeking the ridiculous and actual bias in women's favour and instead start trying to address the imbalence in countries where sexism is not just socially acceptable, but actually part of the system.

taconnol wrote: »

Higher sex drive? Pff give me a break..

Look at how often statistics indicate the average male "relieves the tension" compared to the average female. How come all the anecdotes are about women, not men, saying "not tonight dear I've a headache"? Why is it that men are expected to have had more sexual partners than women?

taconnol wrote: »

Also, did you know that the weatherlady on RTE had to sue her employers as they tried to fire her. Why? They thought she was too ugly! And so RTE learned their lesson and that's why we see older women on that channel.

No I didn't, and I hope she got a nice settlement out of it on top of keeping her job. But the particular newsreader I'm thinking of has been with them for years so she wasn't just hired on to make them look less ageist/sexist.

taconnol wrote: »

As for Nigella. I'm not talking about what men are attracted to. The more enlightened of us realise that only a few men like very slim women but that's not the message from the media. You get plenty of guys who think that Nigella is even obese.

So really you're admitting that since men are not really the source of this, the faceless organisations in the media are, yet men are still to blame for it even though quite a lot of the magazines and fashion shows which seem most in favour of this image are controlled by women and gay (not going to find women attractive no matter what they look like) men?

taconnol wrote: »

Look. Half your arguments are "It's self inflicted!" as if you're somehow trying to deflect blame away from men. Women are to blame for buying into the whole thing BUT we live in a very generised society. Little girl gets a barbie, little boy gets action man. Little girl dressed in pink, little boy dressed in blue. We are so socially genderised to fit into either the male/female stereotypes. It took a lot of mentally telling myself to snap out of it before I got over my obsession with the female ideal. I don't blame those women who can't.

And in most cases do you think it is mummy or daddy who buys the doll for the girl? Certainly in my family it was my mum, my dad bought me airfix (I liked army stuff, but still, trusting me with superglue at that age! The fool! ). Women, as a group, are to blame for much of their own problems with body image, just as men are to blame for the whole "don't talk about it" thing with regards our (men's) feelings.

taconnol wrote: »

In your reponses you pick & choose points that you feel you can successfully counter and ignore those you feel you can't. You have not convinced me to change my point of view

To be quite honest to me you're coming across as another of the Germaine Greer school of feminists, in that you want to blame everything on men, regardless of whether or not it is their fault.

taconnol wrote: »

One last thing. Please get it out of your head that women 'choose' to go into prostitution. Go and read up about human traficking.

If you bothered to read my post instead of just trying to find more things to blame on men you'd clearly see I SAID SOME WOMEN! I suppose men are to blame for you missing that too?:rolleyes:
As Iago and Crumble Froo (the artist formerly known as narco. ) have pointed out there are indeed many women who do choose to become prostitutes, strippers, escourts, etc..., and if as a feminist you truely were about female equality and liberation you would embrace the fact that these women can choose to work in such jobs.


Good post WhiteWashMan, and I wish I'd your optimism on the world turning itself around Iago.:(

ali.c

farohar wrote: »

To neuro-praxis, this is why we need the feminists to stop seeking the ridiculous and actual bias in women's favour and instead start trying to address the imbalence in countries where sexism is not just socially acceptable, but actually part of the system.

I agree with you that women in developing countries have it a lot worse that women here no debate about it. the domestic abuse statistic that i quoted earlier referred to intimate partner/husband, while i am sure that some gay relationships are physically abusive I dont think it is significant enough to say male on female domestic abuse is not a problem in Ireland.

In my current role, I am expected to do stuff that my predessor wasnt purely because i am a girl. One of the managers is quite sleazy (oggling my boobs etc) and i also know of at least one girl who when faced with working in an all male environment was made to feel so uncomfortable she quit the job.

I am not in anyway saying that men dont face problems but my experience to me would indicate that whilst we have come along way there is still a bit to go.

Reku

ali.c wrote: »

I agree with you that women in developing countries have it a lot worse that women here no debate about it. the domestic abuse statistic that i quoted earlier referred to intimate partner/husband, while i am sure that some gay relationships are physically abusive I dont think it is significant enough to say male on female domestic abuse is not a problem in Ireland.

Agreed, while others have raised the point that it's not always the male who is the abusive one I feel the problem is the same in both circumstances, that the victim doesn't feel they have anyone to go to, and in some cases that they should just put up with it & perhaps they bring it on themselves, as such tackling male on female domestic abuse, may help female on male too. Both are just dispicable acts of bullying really, males beating females because they are physicall stronger (on average before someone goes on the warpath!!!!) and left too afraid to complain and females beating males because males aren't supposed to hit back and can't really complain to anyone.

ali.c wrote: »

In my current role, I am expected to do stuff that my predessor wasnt purely because i am a girl.

:eek: Definitely complain! That's not on at all! If they want to keep you doing extra they'd better pay you extra to compensate.

ali.c wrote: »

One of the managers is quite sleazy (oggling my boobs etc) and i also know of at least one girl who when faced with working in an all male environment was made to feel so uncomfortable she quit the job.

I knew one girl who was working on a building site, thankfully the foreman took matters in hand and threatened the lads should they act up because she's female, forget what exactly it was he threatened them with but she said it kept them in line at least. She was well impressed with the foreman , but at the same time threats shouldn't even have to have been made in the first place.

Macha

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

I dont agree, still unobtainable for 99% of us males. But you know, we dont have to be like that, the same way that women dont have to be a size 0.

you must be listening to all that advertising.

I stand by my point that the ideal of the female body is pushed far more than the ideal of the male body.

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

if you can find something that sells a product more efficiently than sex does, then you can bet it will be jumped upon.

its not about body shape. its about sex.

BY the way, ever notice how the women in porn, and on mens magazines, are all curve chicks?
they arent size 0 women.

doesnt that tell you something about what men prefer?

we put chicks we like on our stuff.

women put things they can never be on theirs...

I know sex sells but can you please tell me where all the semi-naked men are selling things to women? Men & women are different but if there's one thing we're similar on it's being attracted to the opposite sex. THe only example I can think of is the recent Aero ad. I could count female examples at nauseum.

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

well, lets face it, you put it on display, someone will look at it.
if youve got a nice pair of breasts, then sorry, i'll catch a glance, why?
because i appreciate a fine pair of breasts.
not because i feel youre only a thing to be oogled, or devalued.

as for strip clubs, well, you pay for that. if someone offers a service, then other people will pay for it. i really dont see what the argument is there.

Putting it on display? You mean the fact that I am wearing a T-shirt and I have breasts? There's not a hell lot more I can do about them being there. WHy not think about what YOU want for a second and maybe think about how uncomfortable you're making the owner of those breasts your staring at? And I'm not talking about just a glance (I mean I don't even notice that stuff). I'm talking about blatant oogling and comments.

As for the strip club/prostitute thing: I think you're really looking at the basic transaction, without examining the socio-economic background to that transaction.

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

to be honest, im not sure what your views are, or even what your points are.

are you blaming a generalised society that the media portays women as something different to what you feel they should be?

how about making it easier.

how about telling me not what you dont want, but what you do want.

personally, my idea of feminism is more aligned to Thaeds. IM a big believer in equality, but im also a big believer that men and women are not the same.
now thats not saying unequal, just different.

I think I may have come across overly negative towards men - something that I do not belive in so apologies for that. I should have mentioned this at the beginning. I don't blame men (honestly!) - for me it is a societal thing and men can also be victims of their own gender stereotypes. But in my opinion, women really get the short straw for gender stereotypes.

What do you mean by making it easier?

Forgot to mention! I have same opinion of male prostitution as female. All those rich older women who go on holiday to the Caribbean, pick up some young guy on the beach & shower him with gifts for a few nights in bed are just fooling themselves that it's anything but prostitution.

And of course there are those people who choose prositution but definitely in the minority. Too many people buy into the 'happy hooker' myth.

Blush_01

taconnol wrote: »

Putting it on display? You mean the fact that I am wearing a T-shirt and I have breasts? There's not a hell lot more I can do about them being there. WHy not think about what YOU want for a second and maybe think about how uncomfortable you're making the owner of those breasts your staring at? And I'm not talking about just a glance (I mean I don't even notice that stuff). I'm talking about blatant oogling and comments.

Ever looked at a guy's ass, arms, calves, chest, seen some guy without his shirt on in fine weather and commented on a well toned torso, or, take it 180 degrees, and commented on the lack of muscle tone and how those "moobs" should be hidden away, how said guy had no ass etc.? If that has EVER happened to you then you're a hypocrite. Women blatantly ogle men too, but usually in groups and then it becomes part of the conversation. It's "observation". We're "visual" people. Bullsh!t. If you don't want to be ogled, then turn or walk away - men can't see what's not there. Or stop giving a crap - it's human nature to assess potential mates. Take it as the compliment it is and move on. Whether you like it or not, you use your body as a commodity. Otherwise, there'd be very little human interaction at all.

ali.c

Blush_01 wrote: »

If you don't want to be ogled, then turn or walk away - men can't see what's not there.

Eh so what she should said inside?? Or were a muselim womans outfit that begins with a B but i have no idea how to spell it. Please... if i have my boobs oggled in work should i quit my job?

Macha

Blush_01 wrote: »

Ever looked at a guy's ass, arms, calves, chest, seen some guy without his shirt on in fine weather and commented on a well toned torso, or, take it 180 degrees, and commented on the lack of muscle tone and how those "moobs" should be hidden away, how said guy had no ass etc.? If that has EVER happened to you then you're a hypocrite. Women blatantly ogle men too, but usually in groups and then it becomes part of the conversation. It's "observation". We're "visual" people. Bullsh!t. If you don't want to be ogled, then turn or walk away - men can't see what's not there. Or stop giving a crap - it's human nature to assess potential mates. Take it as the compliment it is and move on. Whether you like it or not, you use your body as a commodity. Otherwise, there'd be very little human interaction at all.

I have never used my body as a commodity and don't appreciate suggestions to the contrary. Please explain to me how I have done so 'whether I like it or not'.

Do you really think that the majority of human interaction is based on eyeing each other up? If so, we haven't come much further than the apes.

My problem is when the comments or looks start to make women (or men for that matter) uncomfortable. I remember one incident when 2 guys were wolf whistling at a girl & she was literally running away from them, her cheeks blazing red. Seriously, I think we are misunderstanding each others's idea of what a glance, etc means.

Reku

taconnol wrote: »

we haven't come much further than the apes

No, we haven't, women are still addicted to socialising (gossiping) and preening, men still make a lot of noise, thump their chests and try assert dominance (obviously not in a literal sense, but not far from).

As for guys looking "at" you, it's also argueable that this may be an unfair assumption, who really knows where they are looking, there could be something far more interesting behind you afterall, or they could just be staring into space and you happen to be getting in their view. So how much evidence are you using to come to this conclusion or is your ego the bulk of your case against the men? Perhaps your case is based entirely on the psychology concept of rationalisation:
"I do it so I assume everyone else does too"?

As for never having used your body as a commodity, so you've never dressed to look good? Used make-up? Why would you use these unless you want to improve your appearance in some way, and why would you want to do this unless you wanted to use it to affect how someone else would interact with you?
Heck, even when I brush my hair in the morning, even though I don't think about it as such at the time, I am using my body as a commodity as I'm adopting a neater appearance so as to be treated in a more respectful manner by the majority of those I deal with during the day.

Sleepy

What I don't get, and possibly never will, is if feminism is supposed to be about equality why is it

a) called the feminist movement instead of the egalitarian movement

and

b) calling for specialist laws to deal with "women's issues"

Does it not strike anybody that all the lobby groups looking for gender/racial/age/sexual equality would have a far larger voice if they simply grouped together and lobbied for equality for all?