What Are The Pros of having two 4x12 cabs Versus a one 4x12 cab

Yakult

Just thinking how would the sound differ from having two 4x12 cabs linked up versus only one 4x12 cab?

Savman

You look cooler.

feylya

More speakers move more air. That's about it. The cons seriously outway the pros though and when you consider one, maybe two of the speakers are miced at any gig, there's very little point in lugging two 4x12 up a flight of stairs.

Yakult

Ah cool!

Thanks man! Was curious about it.

feylya

There is something cool about having 8 foot tall stacks behind you but when you try and imagine 2 guitar stacks and a bass stack on a stage like fibbers, it looks a bit dumb (imo of course). Half stacks are lovely looking but you'd be hard pushed to get me away from my 1x12 (unless you offered me a 2x12 Road King combo *drools*)

Rustar

Yep, awesome stage presence is the major value here. Won't change the loudness factor appreciably.

When I was gigging heavily, my bass stack consisted of 3 15's on top of each other. Which of course proved that I was a top-level bass player.

Dord

Its mainly just for stage presence. Most big acts that have 4x12 stacks on stage are using not using most of them barr one or using dummy amps and cabs and have a little combo in the back isolated and miced up!

I think a lot of players are coming to their senses these days and realising you don't need a full stack or even a half stack to get a great sound.

My next bass rig is going to consist of a very small high wattage amp, with two 1x12" cabs, so that I can downsize my rig to one cab if I want for a smaller gig or rehearsal etc...

-=al=-

coolness is the only one i can tihnk of unless ur playing croke park

which if u are u are surely cool already

Demeyes

The only other reason I can think of that hasn't been mentioned would be that you could use 2 different sets of speakers in the cabs to get a different sound, however thats really pushing it, mostly its for the image.

Dord

Demeyes wrote: »

The only other reason I can think of that hasn't been mentioned would be that you could use 2 different sets of speakers in the cabs to get a different sound, however thats really pushing it, mostly its for the image.

You could do that with a smaller cab like a 2x12".

Savman

Never saw the appeal of 4x12" stacks tbh, in this day and age it's much more feasible to go with 1x12" or, if you really must, a 2x12".

But it does look cool to the average punter and so long as you're prepared to accept there's an element of image to you lugging around your huge stacks then fire away, it's your back

bombidol

Coolness is a huge factor but if you use different cabs you can get a different sound. I use 2 2x12s of different brands. one has better bass and one has loads of Mid so I can get a nice balance

Karl Hungus

Well, try pushing a 100 watt head through a 2x12 kitted out with greenbacks, and see what happens. So, depending on your speaker choice, it might not be feasible to go with a 2x12 at all. Even then, you'll want your cab's rated wattage handling to be greater than the output of your amp, so 2 4x12s would be a realistic solution.

I don't disagree that a full stack is often for the coolness factor, but there were some situations where it was needed.

Neo#

What would happen? Because greenbacks are only 25 watts arent they. Would it blow or just sound ****e?

feylya

It all depends on what output you're pushing. If you were pushing the full 100W from a head into the 2 25W speakers, you would probably blow them but then again, you could always wire the speakers in Paralell (or is it series? I can never remember) to increase the impedance so the wattage is reduced*



*This mightn't be the right way round but hopefully you'll know what I mean.

Dord

feylya wrote: »

It all depends on what output you're pushing. If you were pushing the full 100W from a head into the 2 25W speakers, you would probably blow them but then again, you could always wire the speakers in Paralell (or is it series? I can never remember) to increase the impedance so the wattage is reduced*



*This mightn't be the right way round but hopefully you'll know what I mean.

If you put them in series then the impedance is the combined amount of both speakers, in parrallel then impedance is reduced. Thats basically the simple version of it, I could go into the maths stuff but I'm too lazy.

Some amps can run at higher impedance and lower wattage, it really depends on the amps. I don't really know if this is the case with guitar amps (not too familiar with them), but a lot of bass amps work this way. They'll allow you to run different impedance of speakers, some go as low as 2ohms, the majority would be 4ohms and may go up to 16ohms but the wattage would be reduced.*




Idiots guide to impedance, I take no responsibility for you blowing up your amp as a result of a mismatched impedance.

duhkha

having two cabs provides a louder and fuller (i would say better) sound, makes it easier to hear yourself, looks incredibly cool, etc. lots of benefits & i use both of mine whenever possible.

have never been able to understand the majority on this forum arguing for the use of smaller cabs and combos. if you want to rock, you need lots of speakers. end of story.

ogy

Even then, you'll want your cab's rated wattage handling to be greater than the output of your amp,

is this definitely right? i'm not that well up on the technical side of guitar amps and i know there can be a few pecularities with them, but with a normal amp/speaker combination you should never put an amp of lower wattage into higher rated speakers. The wattage rating on an amp is not the max it can put out, its how much it can put out without distortion, this is not the nice distortion we like. If the speakers are a higher rating then the amp they will try and draw this rating, and the amp will give it but it will contain extremely distorted high order harmonics which will tear your speakers to bits.

i was under the impression the dangers of underpowering speakers were worse than overpowering them.

as i said though, might somehow not apply to guitar amps!

having two cabs provides a louder...

there isn't a huge noticeable difference though what with the db scale and all that. remember like 80db + 80db = 83db and all that!
i think to double your loudness you need 10 or possible 20 times as many cabs:)

Dord

ogy wrote: »

is this definitely right? i'm not that well up on the technical side of guitar amps and i know there can be a few pecularities with them, but with a normal amp/speaker combination you should never put an amp of lower wattage into higher rated speakers. The wattage rating on an amp is not the max it can put out, its how much it can put out without distortion, this is not the nice distortion we like. If the speakers are a higher rating then the amp they will try and draw this rating, and the amp will give it but it will contain extremely distorted high order harmonics which will tear your speakers to bits.

i was under the impression the dangers of underpowering speakers were worse than overpowering them.
as i said though, might somehow not apply to guitar amps!

there isn't a huge noticeable difference though what with the db scale and all that. remember like 80db + 80db = 83db and all that!
i think to double your loudness you need 10 or possible 20 times as many cabs:)

There is no issue with underpowering speakers. If you turn your amp down you are underpowering the speakers, due to less wattage. If your amp is off, then are the speakers still underpowered? LOL

The only issue to be aware of is if you are running an amp into heavy clipping thru higher wattage speakers or, any speakers for that matter. The amp can damage the speaker due the clipping and frequencies generated.

The wattage of the speakers is merely a rating to advise of the maximum normal wattage they can take. The amp does not "draw" the wattage from the speakers. There is usually a rating even higher also but the speakers would become stressed operating at that or near that wattage.

Karl Hungus

Yeah, I think Joe Robot has explained things best there. For example, I'm running a 100 watt head through a cabinets that's rated at 240 watts.

Eoin Madsen

Two 4x12s will sound and feel different to one, even if they're identical and loaded with the same speakers. Just as a 4x12 sounds different to a 2x12 or a 1x12. In practice, a lot of that difference is going to be lost in a live scenario.

Doctor J

duhkha wrote: »

having two cabs provides a louder and fuller sound, makes it easier to hear yourself

...and makes it harder for everyone else to hear themselves and harder for the sound engineer to make things balanced out front for the punters

feylya

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Yeah, I think Joe Robot has explained things best there. For example, I'm running a 100 watt head through a cabinets that's rated at 240 watts.

And when was the last time you pushed that 100W fully on stage? Because, if you had, you'd know that the sound engineer would be shouting at you to turn it down.

Dord

feylya wrote: »

And when was the last time you pushed that 100W fully on stage? Because, if you had, you'd know that the sound engineer would be shouting at you to turn it down.

Well, I presume he had to push it onto the stage?

Savman

Joe Robot wrote: »

Well, I presume he had to push it onto the stage?

Yay! :D

Karl Hungus

Seriously, I mention the 100/240 watts as example to ogy, who was concerned about underpowering speakers.

Savman

Well the laws of physics apply to guitar cabs same as they do to PA systems, so ohm matching is important. I don't think anyone here shud ever be suggesting things to less educated posters to try out when the result could be a disaster. Similarly, anyone who takes someone's opinion as fact probably deserves a bit of electrocution.

Quattroste

Savman wrote: »

anyone who takes someone's opinion as fact probably deserves a bit of electrocution.

:eek: aaawwwwwww:( Dam :mad:

duhkha

i've always found that 95% of sound engineers have no clue how to mix loud/heavy/screamy music. guitars are always way too quiet with kick and vocals far too loud in the mix.
that's why i prefer playing pub gigs with a vocal pa. then i am in control of my volume relative to the other instruments, not some guy who hate his job and doesn't give a sh1t about my music.
volume wise, i'm usually around the 5 mark with my 100 watt tube head and two cabs.

Savman

duhkha wrote: »

i've always found that 95% of sound engineers have no clue how to mix loud/heavy/screamy music.

This statement is answered here:

duhkha wrote:

guitars are always way too quiet with kick and vocals far too loud in the mix.

Now why would you think that is? Any decent engineer will cut the loudest source of volume and boost the channels that need it most, in your case obviously the Kick and Vocals get drowned out by what you yourself describe as "screamy music". Get your own levels under control and reap the audio rewards.

duhkha

nope, kick and vocals get brought up far too loud by your average "decent" engineer because of some strange preoccupation with making the most naturally channels far louder than they used to be.

anyway, having two cabs rules and i would thoroughly recommend it if you have balls.

Neo#

Lads I have a JVM 100 watt head and am going to buy a 4x12 in the future when its time to start gigging again. I have this 2x12: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Marshall-JCM2000-TSLC212-Cabinet?sku=482789&src=3SOSWXXA which is nice. However its a bit small. The head isnt balanced properly on it either. So do you have any recommendation about cabs? And speakers?

Karl Hungus

Well, I won't be running out to buy another 4x12 any time soon, but I do agree with duhkha on vocals being too loud in the mix a lot of times.

Savman

I'll reiterate the point that Vocals and Kick Drum are both unamplified sources, on a stage with 2 Marshall stacks and a pumping Bass amp, it makes perfect sense to boost anything that will get lost in that mix. Usually, this will be Vocals, hence the vocally dominating mixes you tend to hear.

It's really just simple physics, the higher you turn up your guitar amps on stage, the lower they'll be FOH unless you're touring arenas. Assuming whomever is manning the console can hold their own, get your balance right on stage and your FOH mix will be better, there really is no middle ground tbh. Unfortunately most bands don't have that discipline and demand the "everything louder than everything else" mix. I've heard some guitar players in particular that insist on having their amps at stadium rock levels and wonder why they're nowhere to be heard when they listen back to the recording or whatever.

Tis a cycle that never ends.

Patricide

RHCP, just think about it. The con = your back and a chonga o change. I agree with a bass fullstack though not so much for volume some of the time but for tone, you get the ow end punch of the 1X15 and the clarity of the 4X10s .

Its a lot of hastle too cause you have to sort out extra transport and extra time lugging and basicly the juice isnt worth the squeeze imo, your never gonna be THAT loud and when you are your gonna be miced up usually anyway.

NeMiSiS

Neo# - http://www.musicstore.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/de_DE/-/EUR/AffiliatePrefix-Start?PartnerUUID=tMnVqHzlpyEAAAEWsIcjb7Ur&ProductUUID=0&SKU=GIT0007043-000
They are excellent cabs - heavy beast of a thing though.
Build quality is excellent, try one if you can

TK

Neo#

Thanks Nemisis. Ive been thinking about an Engl cab. The only thing is that they are a bit pricy. You seem to find a lot of second hand marshalls about too. I will try when im seriously about to buy.

Voodu Child

^ Yep, those ENGL 2x12s are about as heavy as a standard Marshall 4x12.....seriously solid build-quality. Great cabs. Ugly though

Yakult

Patricide wrote: »

RHCP, just think about it. The con = your back and a chonga o change. I agree with a bass fullstack though not so much for volume some of the time but for tone, you get the ow end punch of the 1X15 and the clarity of the 4X10s .

Its a lot of hastle too cause you have to sort out extra transport and extra time lugging and basicly the juice isnt worth the squeeze imo, your never gonna be THAT loud and when you are your gonna be miced up usually anyway.

I just want to have a bigger amp than you! haha!:p

NeMiSiS

Someone should develop an inflatable 4x12..

Neo# those ENGL 2x12's actully pop up fairly frequently for sale on the net, not as frequently as Marshalls, but they are so robust that second hand you would be hard done to find much wrong with one.. So good value to be had.

TK

Grolschevik

A related issue...

What do you consider to be the main sonic differences between a 4x12" and two 2x12"s?

I have two 2x12"s, each with a different speaker setup, and I sometimes run my heads into one or the other or both. With both cabs standing vertical, they look like a 4x12", but I'm not sure they sound like one.

There's a guy on adverts selling almost identical cabs to the ones I have, at a very good price for the pair, and I'm almost considering getting them, but having four 2x12"s might be a bit of overkill... Plus the attendant divorce.

Savman

Grolschevik wrote: »

but having four 2x12"s might be a bit of overkill...

:eek: Might? Just a tad.

Doctor J

Savman wrote: »

I'll reiterate the point that Vocals and Kick Drum are both unamplified sources, on a stage with 2 Marshall stacks and a pumping Bass amp, it makes perfect sense to boost anything that will get lost in that mix. Usually, this will be Vocals, hence the vocally dominating mixes you tend to hear.

It's really just simple physics, the higher you turn up your guitar amps on stage, the lower they'll be FOH unless you're touring arenas. Assuming whomever is manning the console can hold their own, get your balance right on stage and your FOH mix will be better, there really is no middle ground tbh. Unfortunately most bands don't have that discipline and demand the "everything louder than everything else" mix. I've heard some guitar players in particular that insist on having their amps at stadium rock levels and wonder why they're nowhere to be heard when they listen back to the recording or whatever.

Tis a cycle that never ends.

This should be branded on the forehead of every gigging guitarist in the country

The reason bands sound **** on stage is because one or more gob****e has decided he doesn't trust the engineer to convey the power of his godly tone to the masses, so he turns himself up to the extent that he can be clearly heard by his frothing fanbase out front and way down the back and that he can feel every nuance of his own playing over the drums, bass and whatever else is onstage.

The result?

The engineer has to turn up the like of the bass drum and the vocals to compete with the stupidly loud guitar. If your engineer looks disinterested, it's most likely because he's growing weary of the same ****e day after day, trying to deliver a clear and punchy mix out front and having to wage a battle with the unwieldy egos of some inexperienced musos who think they know how to engineer a gig better than the engineer.

Playing onstage is a compromise. The stage volume needs to be dictated by the drummer. Ideally, the stage should be as quiet as possible. The quieter the noise coming from the stage is, the better chance you have of the eingineer making the band sound good because he can control the volumes out front of everything and doesn't have to battle with a ****ing amp.

If you want to make your engineer's day, show up to your next gig with a stage-plan and engage in conversation with your engineer prior to the soundcheck. If you have a cd of your band which you like the sound of, give him a copy, saying this is the sound we're going for. Don't just he assume he knows the nuances of your screamo sound because of the keychain or the side you brush your finge to. When he sees you're showing a bit of interest in your band, as a whole, sounding good he will respond in kind.

If you really want to sound good out front, show up to the gig with pods instead of amps. You'll be very surprised

Eoin Madsen

+1

Except the pods part - they still don't fool me.

Patricide

too true, too true. WELL Used to guitarists who wont turn down there amps at this stage.

-=al=-

when was the alst time u heard vocals clearly at a gig! always to loud


but it still doesnt stop me putting my tsl lead channell a notch or 2 up for solos shh dont tell anyone

feylya

-=al=- wrote: »

when was the alst time u heard vocals clearly at a gig! always to loud

At every gig I've gone to in the last 2 years

punchdrunk

i'm pretty sure my 30 watt head and 2x12 is plenty enough for gigging irish venues
i'd rather have that cookin nicely on 6 or 7 that a 100watt head on 1.5

Doctor J

Yup, my 140W Ampeg 2x12 (solid state) has never been past two. At one rehearsal I turned it up to 1.75 and it was waaaaaaaaaay too loud

Eoin Madsen

I think for the average signal most amps will hit maximum headroom well before the volume is cranked. The volume pot is just an input attenuator after all.

feylya

Doctor J wrote: »

Yup, my 140W Ampeg 2x12 (solid state) has never been past two. At one rehearsal I turned it up to 1.75 and it was waaaaaaaaaay too loud

My ears still hurt.