Athiesm & Spirituality

Whispered

Hi, I would like to ask that this thread does not become an excuse for insulting people or a "i'm right, you're wrong" thread. But I would like to know what peoples opinions are on spirituality (I am not talking about god or religion here). My own beliefs are pretty complicated as I dont believe in god (not as a man in the sky anyway) and agree with a lot of what is said on this forum, but I also have some very strong spiritual beliefs.

I think that a lot of what is now described as "paranormal" is simply some function of nature that we dont yet understand and that eventually a lot of things will be explained. "yes you did see a "ghost" in that you saw uncle albert sitting in his chair 2 years after he died but what actually caused it was.................(insert explaination here)"

Too many people, in my opinion, experience things for them to all be fobbed off as mad or coincidental, so I would be interested in opinions please.

believe in some of it, don't expect to ever prove it or be able to support it in a discussion

stakey

The human mind is the one of the most powerful tricksters... i think you'll probably quicker find answers to paranormal events there than within the natural world.

Whispered

stakey wrote: »

The human mind is the one of the most powerful tricksters... i think you'll probably quicker find answers to paranormal events there than within the natural world.

Yes true, but then the human mind is natural so........................

stakey

Lock a person in a dark room for 24-48 hours and they will see oyster shells (See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7199769.stm) or whatever there brain conjures up for them. This doesn't necessarily mean that the oyster shells existed.

These are our brains coping mechanisms, more than likely ghosts and other paranormal activity are something similar.

stakey

stakey wrote: »

Lock a person in a dark room for 24-48 hours and they will see oyster shells (See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7199769.stm) or whatever there brain conjures up for them. This doesn't necessarily mean that the oyster shells existed.

thats pretty cool
would be interesting to try

Whispered

Well I'm not saying that ghosts actually exist, just that people have seen them so it could very well be a trick of the mind (although I think that is a bit simplistic). I'm not just talking about ghosts though, I'm talking bout precognition, healing, clairvoynce etc. What are your thoughts on these. (again please no post just saying "crap" or similar )

18AD

I think we have a very limited knowledge about everything. I have to wonder what will be known in say 500 years when today's 'cutting edge' will be laughably primitive.

I'd even say that knowing may not be the most important thing in the future.

Good luck to the future.
AD.

fatmammycat

I don't believe in God, I also don't believe in Reiki-spit spit- psychics, ghosts, angels, Mediums, Dowsers, Animal telepaths ( I mean come bloody on, Rover's telling me he had a headache last thursday, that's why he dug up your garden) chi, baby whisperers (how convenient, like animals another one that can't answer back or dispute what is being said) fortune tellers, Tarot readers, the 'afterlife', voodoo, Mormons, people who claim to hear the mother of god-and charge accordingly for the same message year in year out- people who see Jesus in toast, resurrections, saints, laying of hands, faith healers, devils, goblins, the tooth fairy, Santa, hobbits, moving statues, warlocks, witches, magicians. or indeed any other mumbo jumbo, chicanery or any other mystical tripe.
That other people do is their business however. As long as they don't mind my laughing at them in private and tuning them out in public-except on my own blog, where it is open hunting season.

Pompey Magnus

Spirituality certainly can be compatible with atheism, but I wouldn't consider myself spiritual to be honest. That said it depends on how you define spirituality, which is almost impossible as it means very different things to different people. If you mean spiritual as in striving towards self-realization and an interest and quest towards understanding the human condition then I suppose lots of atheists, including myself, are spiritual.

I have never felt the need to label myself as spiritual though and I have never thought of myself as such. It is an interesting topic though as spirituality is such an important part of so many people's lives, perhaps secular spirituality should be discussed more and perhaps even promoted by atheists. I'm sure plenty of people consider atheism as being very cold and depressing and lacking in the more profound nature of human existance which certainly isn't the case.

fatmammycat

I always think not believing in mystical stuff makes a body appreciate the wonder and coolness of the world all the more. I love life and enjoy being alive to the max, I don't need a crutch to be happy.

Whispered

18AD wrote: »

I'd even say that knowing may not be the most important thing in the future.
.

Oh sounds interesting - what do you mean?

Depeche, I was one of those people until I started coming here!! I saw athiesm as just a blank rejection of everything. But I'm at a cross roads at the moment in that I do believe in certain things, which seem to go against athiesm. I know reiki works - I dont know how, but I know it does. If it's a placebo effect (as I'm sure I will be told it is) then it is an effect which should be looked into more. I do believe that some benfit can be taken from tarot - even if it is just inspiration, I believe ghosts exist - I dont know if they are dead people back to haunt us, but I also know it cant always be trick of the mind. See what I mean, I do think all of these thing exist, I just think they are not as paranormal as people make out.

Dades

Spirituality for me generally involves some form of paranormal belief or practice. So I can't really embrace the idea of being 'spiritual' with a clear conscience.

18AD wrote:

I think we have a very limited knowledge about everything. I have to wonder what will be known in say 500 years when today's 'cutting edge' will be laughably primitive.

Absolutely!

One idea of the "paranormal" I am open to is ESP. That said, if it we were ever to shed light on it, it probably wouldn't be paranormal for long.

Zamboni

helena.ryan wrote: »

I know reiki works - I dont know how, but I know it does.

I know statements like this annoy me - I don't know how, but I know they do.

No offense Helena but that is simply not good enough.

What exactly do you mean by spirituality?
Do you mean 'at one with the world' or in communication with 'spirits'.
There are various meaning of 'spirituality' which I think are as incompatible with atheism or rationalism as religion is.

Whispered

Dades wrote: »

Spirituality for me generally involves some form of paranormal belief or practice. So I can't really embrace the idea of being 'spiritual' with a clear conscience.

Absolutely!

One idea of the "paranormal" I am open to is ESP. That said, if it we were ever to shed light on it, it probably wouldn't be paranormal for long.

Thats my point, if it became explainable then people who dont believe in the "paranormal" would have a field day saying "oh we told you it wasn't paranormal"

Can I ask Dades, why are you open to ESP?

MrB

Good timing on this tread because, I saw a Ghost last night! seriously.

Was sitting on my couch in my 3rd floor apartment when a white "apparition" floated past the window. I only caught a brief glance, but it definitely was not a bird, it moved all wrong and was a completely different shape! What's more I have heard that the bus depot next door to the apartment building is supposed to be haunted!! what more proof to you need, it had to be a ghost!! :eek:

Of course being an Atheist and sceptic, I thought it prudent to double check my initial assessment and got off my and went out on to the balcony for a better look, where I again saw my "Ghost", except it wasn't a Ghost, it was a Tesco's shopping bag.

A guess what this shows is that the human brain is a master at interpreting incomplete sensory data into realistic experiences, even if those experiences are completely false and that the plastic bag charge is not working

18AD

helena.ryan wrote: »

Oh sounds interesting - what do you mean?

For instance, evolution has gotten us this far. This is a stage of knowing things, a time for human brains, to think and wonder etc...
Before this there was animal instinct, acting for survival, snap decisions etc...
I'm assuming this trend won't stop and there will be a next level of thinking, if you could even call it that.

Edit: http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/PICKOVER/pc/monstrum.html
We're evolving into aliens. Aliens are our future selves!

Or if evolution has kind of taken a back seat with the human race, I'm sure technology will have some very interesting things to offer in the future. It's already pretty amazing thus far.
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/156202.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080117125636.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080111123319.htm

Edit: Forgot to add this(bit more far out :P):
http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/126649/can_this_black_box_see_into_the_future/
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

I'm optimystic.
AD.

Whispered

Zamboni wrote: »

I know statements like this annoy me - I don't know how, but I know they do.

No offense Helena but that is simply not good enough.

What exactly do you mean by spirituality?
Do you mean 'at one with the world' or in communication with 'spirits'.
There are various meaning of 'spirituality' which I think are as incompatible with atheism or rationalism as religion is.

No offence taken Zamboni, did you read the bit where I said it could be a placebo, or did you just ignore that bit? I personally dont believe it is a placebo, but I respect the fact that some people will say it is. I cant however accept when people say it's all nonsense (esp peopl who have nevr experienced it) as I'v seen it work. By spirituality I mean "at one with the world" as you put it but as I said I think a lot of paranormal occurances are just natural occurances which we dont understand yet.

Whispered

MrB wrote: »

Good timing on this tread because, I saw a Ghost last night! seriously.

Was sitting on my couch in my 3rd floor apartment when a white "apparition" floated past the window. I only caught a brief glance, but it definitely was not a bird, it moved all wrong and was a completely different shape! What's more I have heard that the bus depot next door to the apartment building is supposed to be haunted!! what more proof to you need, it had to be a ghost!! :eek:

Of course being an Atheist and sceptic, I thought it prudent to double check my initial assessment and got off my and went out on to the balcony for a better look, where I again saw my "Ghost", except it wasn't a Ghost, it was a Tesco's shopping bag.

A guess what this shows is that the human brain is a master at interpreting incomplete sensory data into realistic experiences, even if those experiences are completely false and that the plastic bag charge is not working

LOL yes, I'm sure we can use shopping bags or similar to explain away everything :rolleyes:

fatmammycat

Too bad Helen, you're just going to have to accept people who think it's nonsense. Same way as we have to put up with people who 'know' it works.

fatmammycat

Also, don't assume people like me who openly mock it, have not had personal experience of it.

Whispered

fatmammycat, is there a problem with one of my answers? You dont have to put up with me, you can always post in another thread? I dont feel like I'm "accepting things". I asked a question, so far most people have had something intelligent or amusing to contribute.

fatmammycat

Yes, you have posted in an atheist thread, of which I am one.
And my answer was in direct response to this "I cant however accept when people say it's all nonsense (esp peopl who have nevr experienced it) as I'v seen it work."
There's nothing 'amusing' about reiki, so I find I have nothing amusing to add.

pH

Personally I really don't understand the term spirituality. It seems to be derived from the fact that, inside us all, is something more than matter and mind, a spirit so to speak.

That would make spirituality all about addressing an inner spirit, growing it, enhancing it, healing it etc.

Since no one has ever produced anything even remotely like evidence that they exist or a coherent theory about how they get there and what they need, I tend to reject the notion of a spirit and hence spirituality.

This also gets somewhat confusing as we use the word spirit in a number of senses - I'd happily accept the "human spirit" or the "spirit of adventure" for instance.

The reason that 'reikki' works is almost definitely the same why acupuncture, faith healing, voodoo and homoeopathy all work : the fact that most feelings of pain, unhappiness, tiredness and discomfort are naturally cyclical and the placebo effect.

Whispered

Mammycat My understanding of an athiest is someone who does not believe in God. Hve I got this wrong? Belief in spirituality is not linked with a belief in god.

I did not start this thread for a row, if you have to post in it please dont be so confrontational. If you are getting so annoyed over my question that you cant do that then I will ask you with respect to please stop hijacking my thread. I wanted athiests opinion on spiritulity, intelligent, thought out opinions, not "you are not an athiest therefore you cant post here" type responces.

Mods, is there a problem with me posting this in athiests forum.

Ciaran500

helena.ryan wrote: »

Well I'm not saying that ghosts actually exist, just that people have seen them so it could very well be a trick of the mind (although I think that is a bit simplistic). I'm not just talking about ghosts though, I'm talking bout precognition, healing, clairvoynce etc. What are your thoughts on these. (again please no post just saying "crap" or similar )

Personally I don't believe any of them. They only seem to work when people people believe in them and any sort of testing in controlled conditions people can't replicate the results. With something like healing a believer will assume any positive effects they feel are from the healing while just sitting down and relaxing could give the same effect.

If this was just something we couldn't understand surely people should still be able to do it consistently and produce actual results. We don't need to understand it to show its there.

Whispered

Ciaran500 wrote: »

With something like healing a believer will assume any positive effects they feel are from the healing while just sitting down and relaxing could give the same effect.

- completly agree for some issues. I think the fact that someone who has a problem is even taking steps towards solving it (no matter how ridic you think the step is) often has a positive effect.

fatmammycat

Your passive aggressive tone won't wash. Clearly you have a problem with reading comprehension. I'm not annoyed by your original question, not have I said you can't post here, mentioning this is an atheist forum explains why I was here. Neither was I confrontational. I have already stated that my answer was in relation to a direct quote from you. If this makes your knees tremble under the yoke of oppression I'm so terribly sorry.
Perhaps you can perform reiki on yourself and heal your wounded sensibilities. After all you 'know' it works.
(now that was confrontational)

Enjoy the rest of your thread.

Whispered

fatmammycat wrote: »

Enjoy the rest of your thread.

Can we leave it at that then please?

robindch

helena.ryan wrote: »

Too many people, in my opinion, experience things for them to all be fobbed off as mad or coincidental, so I would be interested in opinions please.

Personally, I believe that the human brain is a lot better at building "real" experiences out of incomplete or contradictory senses than people in general think. That means that people have a predisposition to seeing or hearing (or whatever) something peculiar, and concluding conclude that what they thought they saw or heard was what actually did happen. Many people have a tendency also to believe that their senses are better than they actually are and therefore tend to put more faith into the reality of their experiences than they really should.

That's not to say that weird and inexplicable things don't happen -- they certainly do -- but simply that people shouldn't automatically assume that what they think happened, was what actually did happen.

Or to paraphrase Hume, you should ask yourself whether it's more likely that the laws of physics that we see working normally every day have been turned off for a short while, or that you made a mistake.

Whispered

robindch wrote: »

Or to paraphrase Hume, you should ask yourself whether it's more likely that the laws of physics that we see working normally every day have been turned off for a short while, or that you made a mistake.

LOL very good! Never heard that one before. I however never make mistakes

Do you think that there might be more to the law of physics than we currently know?

Calibos

The amount of times I have seen dark lurking figures at the side of the road just vanish into thin air as I got closer. I can't accept that it was just my pre-frontal cortex almagamating shapes and shadows in the dim light and interpretting them as the shape of a person/spirit only to re-interpret them shortly after when I got closer and more visual que's were available to my brain and them interpreting them as a bush and part of a wall. No definately not. It was a spirit that suddenly vanished I tell thee!!

Sorry for being facietious(sp?)

Look, you say that there has to be something in it because there are too many reports and sightings for them all to be co-incidence. Put it this. Do you know the picture that looks like a Vase and then all of a sudden looks like two faces and then just as suddenly looks like a vase again. Thats the brain interpreting and reinterpreting confusing visual ques about shape. Every single person on the planet looking at that picture will experience the same thing. ie. one second its a vase, the next its two faces etc. So don't you see that every person on the planet will see strange shadowy figures appear and disappear now and again. Most people realise what has happened when the shadowy figure disappears, "Ah jaysus, haha, sure it was only a bush, LOL".

I certain percentage of people for whatever reason refuse to beleive it was an optical illusion, trick of the brain. Just to pull a figure out of the air. Say 1%. Now remember everyone sees the Vase optical illusion. So 5 billion people will at one time or another will have seen a 'spirit' appear and vanish. 1% will actually believe they saw a spirit. 1% of 5 billion is 50 million people that are absolutely convinced that they saw a ghost/spirit. Is it any wonder there are so many ghost stories. And I was being very conservative with that figure of 1%!!

Here's another one. I was chatting to a female friend about reiki and 'she just knew' there was something in it because when the reiki practitioner came into the room she felt the aura. I asked her to explain this sensation and she described it as a tingling sensation and the goosebumps. A light bulb went on in my brain. You see I work in a shop and every few weeks this old window cleaner comes to clean the shop window. The minute I see him I feel waves of tingling and goosebumps. Its not an unpleasent sensation. Now I am not gay and I don't have a predilection for older gents. What gives? Is he practicing reiki on me without my knowledge from a distance. Does he have a powerful aura and doesn't know it and should really be using his powers for alternative medicine instead of cleaning windows??

Or would a more rational explanation be that I am quite hypersensitive to the likes of 'Scraping the blackboard' but merely sensitive to sqeeks and squeels etc. Could it be that the first day I witnessed him cleaning the windows that the sqeeks and squeels of the rubber window cleaners tool got my 'spider sense's' tingling and everytime I saw this guy thereafter, my brain would anticipate the squeeking and squeeling to come and jump the gun as it were and I would start getting the tingley goosebump feeling before the guy even started on the windows. Could my female friend anticipate the soothing tones and feather touches of the reiki healer and the relaxation to come and thats why she 'felt the aura'. Isn't it more likely that the reiki healer does not have the jedi healing powers of 'the force' when she waves her hands over your body but that you anticipate the relaxation, actually relax and it is the relaxation that makes you feel a bit better. Isn't it amazing that all these alternative therapies just seem to work on a general feeling of unwellness or a general feeling of pain, but never on specific aiulments or injuries. "By holding my hands over your sliced open shin I will concentrate 'the force' and it will heal in 2 days instead of 10" Funny how the best you can hope for is that for a few hours after the session, your shin just doesn't hurt quite so much, kinda, yeah well, I am pretty sure....that maybe....well ye...I do feel....a bit better....sort of....

Zamboni

helena.ryan wrote: »

I cant however accept when people say it's all nonsense (esp peopl who have nevr experienced it) as I'v seen it work.

Again no offence but I would rather see a demonstratable experiment that can be tested over with the same results rather than your observation.

helena.ryan wrote: »

By spirituality I mean "at one with the world" as you put it but as I said I think a lot of paranormal occurances are just natural occurances which we dont understand yet.

Of course there are many things science doesn't understand yet, but that does not mean that as an alternative that we should accept personal visions/sightings/experiences as proof.

The general rule of thumb for non-rationalists appears to be...
I don't know the answer - God did it.
I don't know the answer - It was a ghost.
I don't know the answer - My psychic told me.
Etcetera, etcetera.

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

stakey

Helena, an interesting documentary to watch for an insight into things like clairvoynce, healing and precognition is a documentary that Derren Brown did for Channel 4, the show was entitled 'Messiah' and followed Brown around the US as he attempted to convice other practitioners of his skills. Amongst these skills were the ability to contact the dead, psychic powers and healing to name but a few. In all of the cases the current practitioners believed him to be the real deal.

Brown argued that people simply heard what they wanted to hear, nothing more. This is known as confirmation bias; whereby one's perception of what they see or hear avoids information which contradict what they wish to believe in.

Really interesting part: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1898019884024707180

By the way, Brown is a paranormal skeptic, so he certainly doesn't possess these 'abilities'.

I'm of the opinion that things like clairvoyance, healing and precognition are easily dismissed (and have been by the likes of Brown) and have no grounding in reality.

I don't believe spirituality as it is portrayed in our modern society is compatible with my atheism, for me spirituality would be an acceptance that we are beyond the physical, that there is something supernatural to our existance. As we have developed and evolved and have begun really researching the world around us the old arguments of religion on the age of the universe, our beginnings etc have fallen to the side. In it's place some have turned to more out there 'spiritual' solutions like reiki, tarot cards, irish psychics live, healers, etc etc...

Until some sort of hard evidence in independant managed test environments shows me otherwise i'll find all of this to be completely and utterly incompatible with my atheism.

pH

helena.ryan wrote: »

Do you think that there might be more to the law of physics than we currently know?

There undoubtedly might me more to the laws of physics than we currently know - the chances that any of this 'more' will shed any light on or validate ESP, telekinesis, faith healing, quantum crystallography, fairies, vampires or energy auras is vanishingly small.

It's not that there are a whole lot of things out there that definitely exist but we can't explain. If this was the case then this "more to physics than we know" approach might be relevant. All these claims and effects vanish when anyone approached them systematically.

lookinforpicnic

robindch wrote: »

Or to paraphrase Hume, you should ask yourself whether it's more likely that the laws of physics that we see working normally every day have been turned off for a short while, or that you made a mistake.

Exactly, your bascially (helena) choosing to accept a personal hunch as more likely than all the hard won knowledge of physics, biology, evolution (i.e. evolution of sense organs.. ESP is nonsense) and all the nobel prices that went with it. If real paranormal events occur we basically have to re-invent all this hard won knowledge.

Dades

helena.ryan wrote: »

Mods, is there a problem with me posting this in athiests forum.

None whatsoever. Suffice to say fatmammycat has posted their opinion, and we all know where we stand.

helena.ryan wrote: »

Can I ask Dades, why are you open to ESP?

You can, although I don't really have an answer. Maybe it's because I don't see the possibility of ESP having to exist in the paranormal realm, but instead it might be an untapped function of our big ol' brains. Or maybe I watch too much Star Trek.

Whispered

Dades wrote: »

You can, although I don't really have an answer. Maybe it's because I don't see the possibility of ESP having to exist in the paranormal realm, but instead it might be an untapped function of our big ol' brains. Or maybe I watch too much Star Trek.

THats what I mean about other things too, surely there are some things, like ESP which at them moment are "paranormal" but are not necessarily unexplainable and another untapped function of our brains. This is what I believe healing is. The body is amazing and has amazing abilities to heal itself. Could a healer not just be a facilitator, prompting the body to heal itself? Through the belief of the patient?

Zamboni, you dont have to keep saying no offence! I know you dont mean any. The issues you raised are completly legitimate and I too would like to see a demonstratable experiment. I would not expect anyone to take my word for anything, not even my closest friends, because I am a believer and so am biased. I think for anyone to accept something without proof is very niave.

Zamboni

helena.ryan wrote: »

...because I am a believer and so am biased.

I think for anyone to accept something without proof is very niave.

Do you need any more rope?:D

pH

helena.ryan wrote: »

THats what I mean about other things too, surely there are some things, like ESP which at them moment are "paranormal" but are not necessarily unexplainable and another untapped function of our brains. This is what I believe healing is. The body is amazing and has amazing abilities to heal itself. Could a healer not just be a facilitator, prompting the body to heal itself? Through the belief of the patient?

So why do we need hospitals and doctors? Why don't people just go lie down and heal themselves? Unless if by 'amazing' you actually mean 'pretty poor'

Life expectancy for a human for most of our history using our body's "amazing abilities to heal itself" - 20 to 30 years, current life expectancy in the 1st world : 67 years.

I'm serious, what evidence do you see for these amazing abilities?

stakey

helena.ryan wrote: »

THats what I mean about other things too, surely there are some things, like ESP which at them moment are "paranormal" but are not necessarily unexplainable and another untapped function of our brains.

We still haven't agreed if ESP exists, there is tangible evidence beyond a few eccentrics claiming they have this capability, so i wouldn't even class it as 'paranormal', it's still in the realm of not even existing. Show me tangible independant evidence of ESP and i'll change my opinion.

robindch

helena.ryan wrote: »

Do you think that there might be more to the law of physics than we currently know?

Yes, of course! Why would the world's physicists be opening the upcoming LHC -- the world's biggest and most expensive-ever physics lab -- if there were no stones left to look under?

helena.ryan wrote:

The issues you raised are completly legitimate and I too would like to see a demonstratable experiment.

People have been checking out all kinds of paranormal activity for well over a hundred years and nobody's found so much as one reliable report of a paranormal flea-bite. Believing that reality is pointed in some direction doesn't mean that it actually is, no matter how cool it would be if it were.

Susan Blackmore researched paranormal activities for more than thirty years and threw in the towel a few years back. Her short 'good-bye' is worth a read:

http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NS2000.html

Dades

helena.ryan wrote: »

This is what I believe healing is. The body is amazing and has amazing abilities to heal itself. Could a healer not just be a facilitator, prompting the body to heal itself? Through the belief of the patient?

That's all well and good to have as a belief, as long as that belief is never exercised at the expense of proper medical advice. At least in the case of serious illness.

I heard about this survey a while back, and was somewhat taken aback. I'm all for mind over matter, so to have it suggested in black and white that maintaining a positive attitude is of no help to a cancer sufferer was a bit, well, stark.

18AD

http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm

Interesting enough. No idea how it works though
Let the debunking begin...

All the best.
AD.

Zombrex

robindch wrote: »

Believing that reality is pointed in some direction doesn't mean that it actually is, no matter how cool it would be if it were.

Nail on the head to be honest.

The important point isn't that there are unexplored and unknown areas of the natural world still left to be discovered. The point is that just because there are doesn't mean that they will lead to conclusions that people desire to be true, such as faith healing, ghosts, after life etc etc.

It is the great paradox of belief in the "paranormal" that people who believe in it claim that it is so unknown that we cannot say it isn't happening, yet claim to known enough that they can make conclusions as to what it is. They can't have it both ways. If the "paranormal" is unknown area of nature they know less about what is actually happening than the person saying it isn't a ghost, or energy healing or anything else.

These conclusions are nothing more than wishful thinking. They have no bearing at all on what may or may not actually be happening.

If I do not posses an understanding of the natural world to say that the strange light isn't a ghost then the paranormal believer doesn't posses enough understanding of the natural world to say it could be in the first place.

They just want it to be that pre-determined conclusion for reasons other than simply discovering what it actually is.

Whispered

Dades wrote: »

That's all well and good to have as a belief, as long as that belief is never exercised at the expense of proper medical advice. At least in the case of serious illness.

completly agree, it should never ever be used to replace medicine - it's complementary to medicine.

robindch

helena.ryan wrote: »

completly agree, it should never ever be used to replace medicine - it's complementary to medicine.

You mean that it never works unless you take medicine too? Reminds me of Stone Soup

Whispered

Now in fairness how can I answer that?? If I say yes thats right it only works with medicine then you'll say, no the medicine worked............ and I would never say to use healing without medicine, as I said it's complimentary and any responsible healer will tell you to go to a doctor first and foremost. Would it be more believeable for you if I said "dont ever go to a doctor - I can heal all of your illnesses, you dont need a doctor at all"

I didn't say it never works without medicine, I said it should never be used without med, obviously I'm talking about serious illnesses here and not your common cold or headaches etc.

Zombrex

helena.ryan wrote: »

I didn't say it never works without medicine, I said it should never be used without med, obviously I'm talking about serious illnesses here and not your common cold or headaches etc.

Yes, but the point is that if it actually worked you wouldn't need medicine at all.

Calibos

Just reminds me why I drop into this and the skeptics forum and the likes of Jref a lot less these days.

Oh...good god....the frustration!!

You guys are like saints with the patience you have.

I must be getting cranky in my old age. Becoming a grumpy old man etc I just don't have the patience anymore to even try and educate people anymore. Whats the point. You're lucky to convince 1 in a 100. 1 in a 100 is just not worth the frustration anymore.

18AD

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes, but the point is that if it actually worked you wouldn't need medicine at all.

Because when medicine started to be used and tested it worked flawlessly...:rolleyes:

Good luck.
AD.