"philosophical" martial arts in south county dublin

honda00

Hi all,

I have dredged all conceviable past threads and have not found what I am looking for.

Specifically my wife and I would like to train with a school/instructor that emphasises the dicipline and philosophy of their art along with the physical aspects. We are NOT interested in the current craze and aggression of bjj (exemplified by the ucd site, not to say that all bjj has such a slant) and the "affiliation" with the ultimate fighting championship, etc.

In other words we are looking for a martial art to keep us fit and incorporate a bit of dicipline and spirituality as well, without the aggressive UFC edge.

We live in Dun Laoghaire and work in Belfield/Harolds X.

Thanks for your help.

t-ha

No need to have a pop at the UCD Jiu Jitsu guys - different strokes etc.

There's Tai Chi ,Kung Fu & Wushu on offer in UCD as well.

silat liam

Hi Guys

I sent you a PM

All the best.

Liam

vasch_ro

if you work in Belfield your sorted then
they have , Tai Chi Chuan, Kung Fu, Aikido, Shotokan Karate,Tae Kwon Do,Ninjutsu to name but a few other than BJJ which they also have, I think Aikido and Kung Fu would suit your needs best from your short post.
Go along have and look at the classes or try them out and see what you think !!

Colm_OReilly

UCD has a site?

deegs

Kendo sounds bout right for ye, myself and my wife practise together.

your nearest clubs are trinity and Dublin.
www.dublinkendo.com
www.irishkendofederation.org

regards

David Jones

Specifically my wife and I would like to train with a school/instructor that emphasises the dicipline and philosophy of their art along with the physical aspects. We are NOT interested in the current craze and aggression of bjj (exemplified by the ucd site, not to say that all bjj has such a slant) and the "affiliation" with the ultimate fighting championship, etc.

Most BJJ clubs that I have trained in have a "leave your ego at the door" and "discard techniques that are useless" philosophy. Not bad advice. If you are looking for discipline?? as in what marching up and down a hall, lots of bowing etc etc. uniforms? does that not point more at craze and aggression since its pretty much military associations that no longer have any relevance.

Since you are in Dun Laoighaire area, and since Im always looking to challenge peoples opinions of what bjj is vs philisophical stuff. I will give you a months training for you and your wife free of charge provided you make two classes per week in that time. I guarantee you will be fitter, you will only meet nice people, be taught stuff that works, and if bowing etc makes you feel better you can do that too.

Roper

Most "philosophy" involved with Martial Arts is contrived, a mish mash of various religious and military beliefs grafted onto a European slanted view of the East. My club has a philosophical side, much as Dave outlined above and I would say it's the same around the country.

An example is a guy I knew who used to do Karate of some sort- I can't remember which type- and his instructor was very strict on the Japanese rules. One of which was to take your shoes off when entering the Dojo which he said was a very important religious thing in the head Dojo in Japan. When the guy himself visited the dojo in Japan once he asked the head honcho why people should take their shoes off. The answer was something along the lines of "because your shoes are filthy". An example of a language barrier plus a Western view of the Orient equalling gross misinterpretation.

deegs

To david and roper, im not sure which arts ye are talking about but there is an increadible degree of philosophy, spirituality, discipline and self development in Kendo.
Not sure about other arts, but im sure there are many that do have those elements within them. In my opinion its maybe more about the practitioner that the practice.

Not sure its a very fair statement to call such activities as crazed, agressive or contrived. IMHO they degrade the beliefs of the people who practice them.
I would not pass any judgement on any of yer activities.

David Jones

Not sure its a very fair statement to call such activities as crazed, agressive or contrived. IMHO they degrade the beliefs of the people who practice them.
I would not pass any judgement on any of yer activities.

I think you will find it was the original poster who used these terms with reference to BJJ.No judgement was passed on my part. I merely pointed out that since many martial arts adopt military style discipline and rank that surely that is more closely linked to craziness and aggression.

As patton once said "Sane people don't start wars."

They also implied there was no philosophy in BJJ, well there is no crazy mantra or zen pontifications on life, but there is plenty of sound advice to be had on being a better athlete and also respecting each and every one of your opponents and training partners, Healthy Mind, Healthy Body and all that.



I actually took Kendo for a year while in TCD. Really enjoyed it, Came out of every session bruised and dripping with sweat. It has no practical value in terms of self defence in the modern sense but its a pretty cool activity.


I consider myself a martial darwinist as I have said before. Evolution in everything, survival of the fittest, change should be embraced not feared.

FiannaGym.com

Philosophy?

Lets ask the greatest philosopher in the western tradition, Plato, for advice:

"According to an account by Diogenes Laertius, Plato's given name was Aristocles, however his wrestling coach, Ariston of Argos, nicknamed him Platon, meaning broad due to his robust figure."

Or his teacher, Socrates: “I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler.”

How about Marcus Aurelius? "The art of living is more like wrestling than dancing" (this should really be applied when selecting a martial art!)

I have found that "martial arts" that claim to have a spiritual side/ or philospohical side generally can not be trained in a "class" envoirnment. That is to say, philosophy is thinking, it is learning through action and discovery - not repetition. Therefore, sports like Wrestling, BJJ, Thai Boxing, Boxing and Judo all are philosophical.

Arts that are learned rote, that never involve sparring are completely unphilosophical. They certainly look special, and people do find ways to trick themselves into beleiving what they are doing is spiritual or philosophical, but they are always empty.

A good martial art should put you on the path to peace and love.

Peace
HAAHAHA

honda00

Firstly I would like to thank t-ha, silat liam, vasch_ro, deegs, and David Jones for the links, offers, and advice.

As for john kavanagh's post, I did not say "I would not pass any judgement on any of yer activities", that was deegs, in the post just above. I did however say "We are NOT interested in the current craze and aggression of bjj", and did cite the UCD site - http://www.geocities.com/ucdbjj/ - as an example. Go to that link and click "About BJJ" - it is all about UFC, and here is an excerpt from that site:

---

To win a match in BJJ one must submit (tap out) their opponent. This can be done by:

1. Hyperextending a joint
2. Rotating a joint past its normal range of motion
3. Cutting off the oxygen
4. Cutting off the blood supply

---

Now, maybe the ucd site is mis-representing bjj, and in my original post I stated as much. And of course, as t-ha stated, different strokes for different folks - fair enough, but a bjj club that is all about UFC matches (they even mention Royce in their "about") is not for us.

Anyone who thinks I passed judgement should re-read my original post... you obviously read it too fast, and in a defensive manner. And do read the ucd bjj site. I'm not knocking them at all, it's just not for me.

Also, please note that in my original post philosophical was in quotes and for a reason. I'm not expecting this to change my life or solve the world's problems, I just don't want to join a club or have an instructor that is all about the physical side and not about anything else. One cannot possibly find a fault in that desire.

RearNakedJim

Hello, I am currently the coach of the UCD MMA club, the BJJ club finished 2 years ago and they replaced it with the mma club. The link above is actually about 4-5 years old and it was the first attempt at trying to explain to people was bjj was all about. At that time very few people had even heard of BJJ, i know i hadnt and the ufc was the quick and easy way of explaining. I started 5 years ago there and this year took over the coaching. Personally, im not a natural athelete and i tend to train for fun, as with dave above your more than welcome to try a class and i can honestly say that you will not find the "craze and aggression" you mentioned and im saddened that you feel that the 5 year old ucd site has given you this impression.

Personally i find that rolling as we call it allows you the freedom to stop thinking about everything in life and just live in that moment, some might even call it spiritual.

I hope you find what your looking for.

Jamie

honda00

Great news RearNakedJim! Too bad the old website is still up... Is there a new website for the mma at ucd?

monkey tennis

honda00 wrote: »

In other words we are looking for a martial art to keep us fit and incorporate a bit of dicipline and spirituality as well, without the aggressive UFC edge.

So, ballet then?

Joking aside, something like aikido might fit the bill. They seem to take the 'spirituality' hocus-pocus pretty seriously.

Roper wrote: »

Most "philosophy" involved with Martial Arts is contrived, a mish mash of various religious and military beliefs grafted onto a European slanted view of the East.

Spot on, and to be honest, I think that's part of the attraction of 'traditional' martial arts to some people (being able to take part in silly rituals).

RearNakedJim

honda00 wrote: »

Great news RearNakedJim! Too bad the old website is still up... Is there a new website for the mma at ucd?

Not as far as i know, i just coach the club. I dont have anything really to do with the day to day running as such but im trying to help best i can.

I agree with the others in that aikido seems like the one for you, however not sure as to the level of fitness you will get from it.

ryoishin

Its up to you as an individual to "discover" the philosophical side of a martial art. Ive trained in Japan many times and it was through hard physical techique that you come to the whole (i hope thats not the notty way of spelling it) spiritual aspects. I think you ll find that in both modern and traditional arts.

However id recommend Tony Carrick in Lucan if thats not too far. Its traditional with students who have philosophy degrees and one has a theology degree. (not that this makes any difference). But there is sparing too. PM me if you want his number.

I do both traditional and bjj and muay thai and it gets spiritual on the bus home when im happy i dug deep to push myself as well as taking part in ancient thinking of the ryuha thats being studied.

FiannaGym.com

There is an expression, "Dont judge a book by its cover", maybe, in the 21st century people will need to be told, "Dont judge a gym by its website".

Anyway, only the most ignorant in martial arts (and that isnt a jibe or an insult) would consider BJJ to be agressive. It is the opposite in fact, it has its roots in the gentle-way (Judo).

If you look at the leathal techniques used in other martial arts (I did Kenpo and Kung Fu for a total of 11 years) BJJ pales in terms of "aggressiveness".

Also, again, only the most ignorant and illresearched people would lump use BJJ and UFC like they are interchangable. The two sports are very different.

The work of Edward Said (or Roper) acts a a guide to how we can understand the wests view of the mystical "Orient". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said

I think a club that would suit you well would be http://www.ymaa.ie/index.html, I'm going on the assumption that "Kung Fu" has enough "philosophy" for you. In truth it doesnt but I'm sure you could, if you so desired, could invent reasons as to why it does.

Peace

judomick

has it not long been an excuse that the reason most traditional arts dont compete in MMA is the fact that they cannot use "lethal techniques" eye gouging strikes to the throat etc?

honda00

Thanks to all again for the depth and expedience of your responses! I certainly will follow up the many offers and links that several of the more open-minded have offered.

Perhaps the greatest display so far of what I am looking for (in part) is evident here in the last 18 hours of posts. Many people are understanding, open, generous, willing, and giving, yet there are some who are pessimistic, sarcastic, and self-righteous, but still eager to share their views. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but it is passion that compels one to voice such. Obviously (almost) everyone who posted here shares that passion, and that is a good thing.

I acknowledge that I am knew to boards and the topic at hand and have quite happily received more support and information than expected. If there is to be further debate on the philosophy/aggressiveness/whateverness about different arts or sport in general I suggest that a new thread is started.... Perhaps I should have asked for a "friendly" place to begin instead of a "philosophical" one, but then this irrelevant debate would have not been born.

Again, sincere thanks to everyone, particularly those who have offered help, information, and more.

Roper

FiannaGym.com wrote: »

The work of Edward Said (or Roper) acts a a guide to how we can understand the wests view of the mystical "Orient". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said

LOL. Me and Edward Said have spent many a lonely evening together.:D

RearNakedJim

honda00 wrote: »

should have asked for a "friendly" place to begin instead of a "philosophical" one, but then this irrelevant debate would have not been born.

Personally i train for the shear enjoyment of what i do, and the people i train, and with tend to be very nice people(IMO). I resisted the urge to be defensive and take you opinions of the club i train personally as you seem to be a nice person who was honestly looking for help and again i honestly believe that aikido would suit you and your wife. I would like to know one thing though.

Had you started a topic looking for a friendly place to train, and someone mentioned UCD BJJ, would you have dismissed the notion out of hand due to the webpage you found? i ask as i can have a word with the club to see what can be done about it.

Again best of luck
Jamie

bassman22

I would go for tai chi over aikido after reading your posts. also for the UCD martial arts clubs, there are good and bad ones (I'm not talking about styles here) and some may require you to be a graduate, if you get into one though, it'll probably work out much cheaper!

arybvtcw0eolkf

This thread has made Marto feel stupid, and depressed

vasch_ro

hey Honda, how about you keep the thread going when you try out some of the clubs and give a little feed back ??

honda00

will do!

columok

Being honest I think (generally speaking) going for a "philosophically" minded place generally means eschewing conventional self defence mindedness. Maybe something like Kendo or Iaido would be the way to go. They'd give you a study of something foreign, a lot of the ritual and yet wouldn't go into the shaky functionality ground that many "philosophical" MAs go into.

Essentially you'd get what you're looking for without having to listen to the inevitable BS that you might in the legions of Karate, Kung Fu etc. clubs.

paul moran

Hi,

You are welcome to come down to us for a week of free classes (Mon -Thurs) and see if it's something you are interested in. Although I must admit that I am not sure how much of the philosophical side of things we would impart. We just train hard! There's plenty of philosophy and history available in the YMAA books etc.

Goodluck with the hunt,

Mark Hamill

honda00 wrote: »

"We are NOT interested in the current craze and aggression of bjj", and did cite the UCD site - http://www.geocities.com/ucdbjj/ - as an example. Go to that link and click "About BJJ" - it is all about UFC, and here is an excerpt from that site:

---

To win a match in BJJ one must submit (tap out) their opponent. This can be done by:

1. Hyperextending a joint
2. Rotating a joint past its normal range of motion
3. Cutting off the oxygen
4. Cutting off the blood supply

---

Whats wrong with the ucd site? If you go to the "About BJJ" bit, sure the first two paragraphs are about ufc , but the next 8 are about how bjj works.

And whats wrong with that excerpt? Thats just how BJJ works. Do you not like idea of doing these things? Well how do expect to do any martial art? The point of all striking martial arts (and I mean all, from boxing from taekwondo to wushu) is to hit someone hard enough to stop them from fighting you, usually this in the form a knockout. If I told you that a knockout is when sufficient damage is done to the brain stem, usually by rapid rotation by the head from a strike, and the person falls unconscious, would you automatically call any sport with knockouts involved " a craze" and too aggressive for you. Pretty much all thats left then is weapon based martial arts where you'll eithe have blunt edged weapons that are aiming to do the same as the striking martial arts and so their out, or sharp edge weapons where you aim to defeat you opponents by causing sufficient bodily harm that they bleed to death, so I guess thats out.

I don't think there's anything left. For any martial art you need agression. The entire point of martial arts is to learn how to fight (in whatever ruleset/domain they train) and you need agression to do this. Agression does not mean that you want to kill everyone (or anyone) you see, it just means you want to win (would you call rugby players aggressive? I would, but not because they want kill kill kill, but because they are willing to exert themselves physically to extreme conditionns in order to win). And any martial art that tries to tell you that it can still be effective without agression is talking bull (remember, there is a big distinction in becoming agressive and going apesh*t).

And if the martial art cant perform its primary function then its useless, and if you still want to learn philosophy, then do it seperately (Its madness to me that someone would look to learn philosophy through martial arts, would you look to learn philosophy through race car driving?)

cletus

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And if the martial art cant perform its primary function then its useless, and if you still want to learn philosophy, then do it seperately (Its madness to me that someone would look to learn philosophy through martial arts, would you look to learn philosophy through race car driving?)

I agree completly. Martial arts is about fighting. This involves aggression on some level.

I have never heard of anybody looking for philosophy in any other sport or endeaver, from cooking to fishing to playing bowls. In my humble opinion this is one of the main problems with martial arts at the moment, eschewing its primary purpose in order to espouse "philosophy".

HammerHeadGym

honda00 wrote: »

...One cannot possibly find a fault in that desire.

They can on this forum brother. I guess you are now at the 'give all of them a shot and pick which ever one makes the most sense for you' stage. I'm sure most instructers will offer you a free week. If fitness is your aim, pick a competetive one. Even if you never compete, you'll still be drastically improving your fitness.

who007

cletus wrote: »

I have never heard of anybody looking for philosophy in any other sport or endeaver

Ehhmmm... Golf, Surfing, Climbing, Running........?

dlofnep

who007 wrote: »

Ehhmmm... Golf, Surfing, Climbing, Running........?

I'm sure the first thing Tiger Woods does when he wakes up is play a game of golf, to fill the void left by other philosophical endeavours in his life.

Roper

who007 wrote: »

Ehhmmm... Golf, Surfing, Climbing, Running........?

I was at a symposium held by the surfers union there last year where the consensus view was that reality is a vast tapestry constructed by man to make sense of the universe...

...or not.

David Jones

I was at a symposium held by the surfers union there last year where the consensus view was that reality is a vast tapestry constructed by man to make sense of the universe...

Surfers hold symposiums??

and more importantly what were you doing there?

cletus

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm sure the first thing Tiger Woods does when he wakes up is play a game of golf, to fill the void left by other philosophical endeavours in his life.

yeah, what dlofnep said

Scootay

Mark Hamill wrote: »

For any martial art you need agression. The entire point of martial arts is to learn how to fight (in whatever ruleset/domain they train) and you need agression to do this.

I don't remember aggression being involved when I was practicing Tai Chi.

Mad is bad, mmmkay?

FiannaGym.com

Well here you get into the whole "aggression as tactic" versus "aggression as intent" debate. Well, some people get into it, philosophically speaking I would consider myself completely unaggressive in terms of violence, however, I aggressively persue fitness, skill, technique and perhaps a win. I aggressively persue knowledge and wisdom blahdy blah.

Does this look aggressive? http://www.fiannagym.com/stand-up%201.wmv



Peace

RearNakedJim

I have been trying to teach the guys i train in ucd, that you have to be tenacious in training, and competition. I believe that you dont have to be agressive when you train, i know im not, but as stokes said i do pursue technique and the odd win agressively(tenaciously ). You have to go after what you want with everything you have and be willing to stick at it until you get the desired result (the win, rock hard tasty abs washerboard style etc.

Colm_OReilly

Perhaps this would be easier if we locked down definitions and usages before debating whether something is.

So what are the definitions and usage of
assertiveness
aggressiveness
tenacity
rock hard tasty abs washerboard style?

Mark Hamill

Scootay wrote: »

I don't remember aggression being involved when I was practicing Tai Chi.

Mad is bad, mmmkay?

I didn't think I explained what I meant by agression very well, so I suppose its my fault that some people got the wrong of the stick.
When I say agression I do not mean angry or pissed off and I certainly don't mean you go apesh*t crazy and try to pound people into the ground and brake limbs and tear someone apart. I mean that you aren't afraid to be on the attack, that you don't just sit there avoiding shots, you counter and follow through looking for the win. Some people when they get ready for a fight seem very cool and collected like they're not about to go and fight someone they bearly know (eg Fedor) and some seem psyched up ready to jump in like they've been waiting all week for the chance to fight there opponent (eg Wanderlei Silva), but both fighters have agression and both follow through and don't hold back.
"Mad is bad" is true simply for the fact that if you get angry and lose control of what you are doing then you have no control of what you're opponent is doing and you're going to lose.
I brought up agression because the OP didn'y seem to like the "agression" i the ucd bjj website. Thing is, there is no agression in the website just enthusiasm and frankness (if you dont believe me then please show me examples where the website is agressive) , ie you are told what it takes to win and thats what you are set out to do, you don't lie to yourself about it.

BobbyOLeary

hi honda00,

Sorry I only spotted this thread now, I've been off boards.ie for the past while. I'm the current Captain/President/Head Honcho of the UCD MMA club.

Just to let you know, I had no idea we even had a site and neither did Colm our former coach, considering Colm was a member in the club for a long time before I was it stands to reason that that website isn't quite kosher. I don't know who runs the site but the description of our club from ucd.ie/sport is the following

ucd.ie wrote:

Formerly known as the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Club, this club offer Mixed Martial Arts which they claim is a sport that has exploded in popularity in recent years. With a speciality in ground fighting (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) UCD Mixed Martial Arts Club does not neglect the other areas of this sport such as stand-up and clinch, making it as close to a complete fighting system as possible. The club caters for all levels and competitive activities include the Amateur NMA League and the National Submission Championships.

This is the only official website of the club. I'm sorry if the other website offended you and I would be delighted if you would join us for training next week (Tuesdays, Thursdays 4 - 6, Hall C, Sports Centre) and we can show you what UCD MMA has to offer.

If you've any other questions send me a PM. Also, the club's contact information is available on UCD.ie

I hope to see you at training!

-Bobby

Mark Hamill

who007 wrote: »

Ehhmmm... Golf, Surfing, Climbing, Running........?

And what sort of philosophy do you get from these? What do golfing, climbing, surfing and running tell you about how to live, about what things like love and hate (and aggressivenss:D) really mean. Do any of these tell you what to do in a moral dilemma.

Roper

David Jones wrote: »

Surfers hold symposiums??

and more importantly what were you doing there?

Drowning probably, since I can't swim!:D

In all seriousness, I've been high through exercise, maybe some people can relate I dunno. Wouldn't call it philosophy though. But as for if doing what I do teaches me anything to do in a moral dillema I'd say it does. Be strong mentally, have a healthy outlook, and so on. Still not philosophy though!

Mark Hamill

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Perhaps this would be easier if we locked down definitions and usages before debating whether something is.

So what are the definitions and usage of
assertiveness
aggressiveness
tenacity
rock hard tasty abs washerboard style?

Assertiveness: You have assertiveness if you are confident in your beliefs and you have no fear of debate and discusion on them. You are not afraid of people contradicting you and will defend your own points of view, and contradict others. (you do not end an argument with "lets agree to disagree")

Agression: Depending on the circumstance, agression can simply be pre-emptive assertiveness. It can mean a jerk who is always starting fights, but maybe because of the MA training I have done, I see aggressiveness as not the act of starting fights, but the method on how you fight them. eg when i started training I was a passive/defensive fighter. I would let my opponent come to me and try to react to what they did. recently I have become a more aggressive fighter, I will take the fight to my opponent to make them react to me, to put them on the back foot. Its a lot easier to win this way.

Tenacity: This, I would consider a mixture of perseverence and assertiveness, ie you hold on to a belief (or position if you're talking MA here) not necessary because you are just bull headed, but because you think you can salvage it.

Rock Hard Tasty Abs Washerboard Style: http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_02/AlbaDM2604_468x597.jpg

FiannaGym.com

Rock Hard Tasty Abs, washboard style is just a bad translation of a delicious Chinese dish, kind of like, Tasty Chicken wings, hong kong style.

Peace

RearNakedJim

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Tenacity: This, I would consider a mixture of perseverence and assertiveness, ie you hold on to a belief (or position if you're talking MA here) not necessary because you are just bull headed, but because you think you can salvage it.

The way i like to use it

tenacity
noun
persistent determination [syn: doggedness]

ie being determined to hold on to the choke for longer as your opponent may be stuborn. Or always trying to better your postition etc.

I want my competitors to be constantly looking to better their position eg pass, side, mount, back. One of the reasons i started using it was because i think alot of bigger stronger guys lose out early on in their training as they are told by someone "there is no point in just beating someone cause your stronger, or you only tapped me cause you where strong etc, what i try and get across is that you can be dogged in your attempts to finish a submission without just being stronger, i think that alot of bigger guys lose the agressivness, tenacity and desire to hold on to a submission as the think they are just winning with strength.

That wasn't very well written but i hope you get what i mean.

Mark Hamill

RearNakedJim wrote: »

That wasn't very well written but i hope you get what i mean.

Its written better than my answer.

eoghan.geraghty

RearNakedJim wrote: »

i think that alot of bigger guys lose the agressivness, tenacity and desire to hold on to a submission as the think they are just winning with strength..

Jim, I am going to crush you with my assertiveness and tenacity:D

FiannaGym.com

Bruce Buffer: "And in the red corner, standing to my right, "The assertive" Eog - han "tenacious" Geraaaaaghtyeeeeeee"

Peace

who007

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And what sort of philosophy do you get from these? What do golfing, climbing, surfing and running tell you about how to live, about what things like love and hate (and aggressivenss:D) really mean. Do any of these tell you what to do in a moral dilemma.

*sigh*

The man put the term "philosophical" in inverted commas for a reason.
Philosophy is about how you understand yourself as much as and in addition to how you relate to the world/universe etc.. Try focusing on how your emotions and body feels when you put your all in a game iof golf for 4 hours of pure focus! Or when you are in the groove for a personal best on 26.2 miles despite the pain or exhaustion you may feel, or have let go of all other thoughts but the best wave to catch out of a set. If you don't believe me just put the words golf/running/surfing and the word philosophy into google and read about it for yourself. Sure you can be pedantic about it, but we all know what the man meant when he asked for advice, there was no need to start making a big issue out of his simple and honest request for some info, and you knew what I meant when I posted that reply. However I will take the advice you quote at the end of your thread postings and I won't argue with you.