Why does "god" hate me so?

PoleStar

While this is aimed I guess at the religious, and maybe mostly Christians and Muslims, I post here for fear of being touted a troll and having bad wishes heaped upon my soul!

By virtue of geography (i.e. born in Ireland of catholic parents) I was raised a catholic. Enlightenment (the atheist and not buddhist kind!) occured quite a few years ago.

Now unfortunately (depending on which book you read but the general idea is the same), I am condemned to an eternity of hot coals and nasty pitch forks being prodded where I am sure I wont enjoy them.

My question for those people who claim they worship a god of peace is why did he (as the almighty and all powerful who knows all that was, all that is and all that will be; and, as my creator in a way I guess responsible for my actions) create me so. What has he got against my DNA that he wishes torment and torture unimaginable on my person for all eternity?

What is the religious take on this. And by the way, I dont buy the "free will" crap. An all knowing and powerful god is still responsible. Why did he create this giant petri dish and damn a certain portion of us to be blasphemers and thus pick on us to be punished? Am I just cannon fodder for suicidal fundamentalist maniacs? Did he just create me as a "test" for the true believers?

Anyone?

PS would it be advised against posting this in the Islam or Christian forum?

aidan24326

PoleStar wrote: »

PS would it be advised against posting this in the Islam or Christian forum?

You could post it in the Christianity forum alright. Don't expect any satisfactory answers though. You'll get lots of quotes from the bible.

As for the islam forum, no point venturing in there unless it's to sing the praises of allah. Bit of a cosy club, I suspect.

BrianCalgary

Sorry I have to wade in here.

You won't like the answer, because free will exists, we have it and we make choices daily.

estebancambias

What about a person who is a psycopath? This is beyond their control.

Just a question I was curious about.

Nerin

think of god or whatever deity you want, as a scientist or a computer programmer even.
creates all these little beings to interact with eachother. then sits back and watches. ta dah. explained. and i didnt even have to bomb you

Zillah

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Sorry I have to wade in here.

I'm sorry too.

You won't like the answer, because free will exists, we have it and we make choices daily.

A compelling argument by assertion.

There are those that argue that freewill cannot exist, as the universe is either controlled by God, random or deterministic. Freewill does not mean anything in any of these circumstances.

The "soul" also means nothing, its a completely undefined cop out so don't even go there. If you do respond to this I would appreciate it if you could give a meaningfull and thorough definition of this freewill concept you so insistently assert exists. I would prefer if the response was not composed of useless "common sense" type arguments.

Hivemind187

Why does God hate you (assuming for a moment that their actually is one).

There are numerous possibilities.

Firstly, he gave you free will and intended that you would choose to worship him. Unfortunately for Yahweh if this is the case he is directly responsible for your turning away from him because it was his choice to give you that free will.

Court finds in favor of the plaintiff - dont go to hell.

Then you have the mechanistic approach, that "he has a plan" and that everything that happens does so for a reason (ignore the obvious dissonence with Free Will for mental health reasons). If this is true and Yahweh intends you to be a component in some grand scheme then he shouldn't love you any less than any of his other creations since you are only following the speicifc set of instructions hard-coded into your ... soul I guess.

Court finds in favor of the plaintiff - dont go to hell.

You then have the "strayed from the path" concept. In essence this means that you have been led astray by the works of Lucifier (another of Yahweh's creations). However, it can be argued that the devil, being a creature of supernatural and malevolent powers a mere mortal does not have and should not be expected to have the ability to resist such a being. It could be argued that since god created both you and the devil that he gave unfair advantage to the devil by bestowing great powers on him and then acting as an absentee father himself - any blame for the results should rest largely on his shoulders.

Court finds in favor of the plaintiff - dont go to hell.

However, you may have red hair in which case there is no hope for you.

P.s.
I doubt very much that this question would get a reasoned answer from either the Islam or Christianity forum since it requires too closse an analysis of their faith. Faith will not survive such analysis.

Pompey Magnus

PoleStar wrote: »

Now unfortunately (depending on which book you read but the general idea is the same), I am condemned to an eternity of hot coals and nasty pitch forks being prodded where I am sure I wont enjoy them.

My question for those people who claim they worship a god of peace is why did he (as the almighty and all powerful who knows all that was, all that is and all that will be; and, as my creator in a way I guess responsible for my actions) create me so. What has he got against my DNA that he wishes torment and torture unimaginable on my person for all eternity?

You think that is bad? How about the fact that if Hitler or Stalin (or any mass murderer, child killer etc) truely repented before dying then they would be welcomed by God to spend eternity in paradise (and judging by Jesus' teachings he will probably throw them the mother of all parties because they were lost and are now found) while you (and I, and Einstein, Lucretius, Benjamin Franklin, Pliny etc) will spend eternity in pain and torment for the crime of disbelief even if we live a good, honest life and love our children and do our best to do no harm to others.

I cannot believe in a God who claims to love us yet is willing to send us to Hell because he messed up when he decided to create a snake with the power of language. If he exists, the Judeo-Christian God does not love us, he loves only himself.

humanji

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

If he exists, the Judeo-Christian God does not love us, he loves only himself.

Actually, I'd say he doesn't love himself, since he appears to be incredibly insecure.

kelly1

Folks, I think atheism is the ultimate cop out.

I don't understand the materialist point of view. If one accepts that we are nothing more that atoms, there be no free will? Yes, I know these atoms form extremely complex molecules but they are still ultimately composed of atoms.
But we still have the power to choose. I see someone drop money on the street. I can choose to take it or give it back to them. I know for sure which make me feel better!

If we are composed purely of atoms and have no spirit, how does the materialist explain things like, will, choice, intelligence, love, appreciation of beauty, emotions, yearning for God? It makes no sense at all and I think it's just plain crazy to refuse to acknowledge the spiritual side of our being.

To get back to the original question, faith is a gift from God. Faith doesn't come from us but it does have to be preceeded by the desire to know God.
When we show God that we desire to know Him, He will in His goodness give us the gift of faith freely.

PoleStar, one of the effects of baptism, is God's granting of the gift of faith. i.e. God starts the ball rolling but we need to keep it rolling. Your loss of faith is due to the choices you made. God continually calls us by means of His grace and if we reject it often enough, the call will grow weaker and weaker because of the barrier we have errected between us and and God. I don't mean to be judgmental, but you must have made a conscious decisions over the years to reject God and follow your own way.

Did you ever have faith? If so, what did you do with it?

God bless,
Noel.

kelly1

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

You think that is bad? How about the fact that if Hitler or Stalin (or any mass murderer, child killer etc) truely repented before dying then they would be welcomed by God to spend eternity in paradise (and judging by Jesus' teachings he will probably throw them the mother of all parties because they were lost and are now found) while you (and I, and Einstein, Lucretius, Benjamin Franklin, Pliny etc) will spend eternity in pain and torment for the crime of disbelief even if we live a good, honest life and love our children and do our best to do no harm to others.

Hello DM, you're missing one vital part of the picture and that is God's justice. Yes God in His mercy would not send a repentant soul to Hell but there is a price to pay for all sin. Hitler and his ilk would most likely spend a very long time in Purgatory in a state very akin to Hell. Suffering in Purgatory is proportional to the sin committed. There is no such thing a getting off scott free as many Protestants would have us believe.

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I cannot believe in a God who claims to love us yet is willing to send us to Hell because he messed up when he decided to create a snake with the power of language. If he exists, the Judeo-Christian God does not love us, he loves only himself.

God never forces us to sin and He always gives us the strength to avoid sin if it is our will to do so. We sin only when we freely consent to it. Temptation in fact can be used by God to increase our virtue if we decide for avoid the sin for the love of God. God will reward us for every temptation overcome.

Dades

kelly1 wrote: »

Folks, I think atheism is the ultimate cop out...

I don't mean to be judgmental, but you must have made a conscious decisions over the years to reject God and follow your own way.

Hi Noel. I see you are still refusing to accept what atheism actually means.

It is not a rejection of God, it is a simple disbelief in his (or any of their) actual existence, similar to your disbelief in Krishna. How you live your life after that is up to the individual.

BTW I would have locked or moved this thread when I saw it, had the discussion not been so progressed. Although maybe it has shown that we do have religious lurkers! Welcomes!

Pompey Magnus

humanji wrote: »

Actually, I'd say he doesn't love himself, since he appears to be incredibly insecure.

I'd love to read a psychoanalysis of God. He sets unachievable goals for his children (he once drowned millions of these childrens because they disappointed them), he has an inclination for sado masochism, he is homophobic, racist, jealous, sexually repressed, reclusive (maybe suffering from Social Anxiety Disorder?), almost certainly he is suffering from schizophrenia, and when chosing clergy he is not an equal opportunities employer. He really needs professional help, he could be a great guest on Dr Phil.

faceman

So free will doesnt exist? So who makes our decisions for us?

faceman

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I'd love to read a psychoanalysis of God. He sets unachievable goals for his children (he once drowned millions of these childrens because they disappointed them), he has an inclination for sado masochism, he is homophobic, racist, jealous, sexually repressed, reclusive (maybe suffering from Social Anxiety Disorder?), almost certainly he is suffering from schizophrenia, and when chosing clergy he is not an equal opportunities employer. He really needs professional help, he could be a great guest on Dr Phil.

evidence please? God didnt write the bible

Hivemind187

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I'd love to read a psychoanalysis of God. He sets unachievable goals for his children (he once drowned millions of these childrens because they disappointed them), he has an inclination for sado masochism, he is homophobic, racist, jealous, sexually repressed, reclusive (maybe suffering from Social Anxiety Disorder?), almost certainly he is suffering from schizophrenia, and when chosing clergy he is not an equal opportunities employer. He really needs professional help, he could be a great guest on Dr Phil.

God is Dick Cheney? :eek:

On to a separate topic. I note that there has been much banging of the free will drum again. "If it doesnt exist how do we make choices?" "Who makes choices for us" and other pseudo questions.

The answer to this is simple (though admitedly horrifying when I was first confronted with it). There is no "free will" in the sense we understand it. It is merely the illusion of such.

Consider that from the instant of the big bang, which has sent atoms and molecules out in to the universe the simple interactions of these components come togther to form more complex interactions as they travel. It is the interaction of every molecule in the universe to which you have some link, throughout history, that has led to you making a decision.

In other words, you arent choosing to pick up or not pick the ten euro note on the ground, your reaction has already been determined before you were even aware of it. It is a conspiracy of particals that has put you in the position you are in and it is the events caused by those particals being in those places that cause you to make the decisions you do.

... I might need help explaining this. Scofflaw or Wicknight will understand better what I am getting at.

Pompey Magnus

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello DM, you're missing one vital part of the picture and that is God's justice. Yes God in His mercy would not send a repentant soul to Hell but there is a price to pay for all sin. Hitler and his ilk would most likely spend a very long time in Purgatory in a state very akin to Hell. Suffering in Purgatory is proportional to the sin committed. There is no such thing a getting off scott free as many Protestants would have us believe.

Even spending a million years in purgatory is nothing when compared to the infinite eternity.I have never heard a satisfactory defence of the injustice that otherwise good, honest people will be condemned by God while people who live an evil life but genuinely repent near death will be richly rewarded. It is one of the most horrible aspects of Christianity and was one reason why I could not continue to believe in it.

Pompey Magnus

Hivemind187 wrote: »

God is Dick Cheney? :eek:

From now on instead of using Zeus as the image of the Christian God I will think of a giant Dick Cheney in flowing white robes up in the clouds scowling down on us all.

Caveat

Dades wrote: »

It is not a rejection of God, it is a simple disbelief in his (or any of their) actual existence

...but it does include rejection of all organised religion - as it is the opinions of atheists thatthese people are misguided. They believe this with as much conviction as the believers embrace their god/gods.

And there lies my problem with atheism - it is absolutist in itself and just like the convictions of theists, this conviction cannot be proved.

Which is why I am an agnostic (in itself, one of the most frequently ill defined concepts)

PoleStar

kelly1 wrote: »

Folks, I think atheism is the ultimate cop out.

I don't understand the materialist point of view. If one accepts that we are nothing more that atoms, there be no free will? Yes, I know these atoms form extremely complex molecules but they are still ultimately composed of atoms.
But we still have the power to choose. I see someone drop money on the street. I can choose to take it or give it back to them. I know for sure which make me feel better!

If we are composed purely of atoms and have no spirit, how does the materialist explain things like, will, choice, intelligence, love, appreciation of beauty, emotions, yearning for God? It makes no sense at all and I think it's just plain crazy to refuse to acknowledge the spiritual side of our being.

To get back to the original question, faith is a gift from God. Faith doesn't come from us but it does have to be preceeded by the desire to know God.
When we show God that we desire to know Him, He will in His goodness give us the gift of faith freely.

PoleStar, one of the effects of baptism, is God's granting of the gift of faith. i.e. God starts the ball rolling but we need to keep it rolling. Your loss of faith is due to the choices you made. God continually calls us by means of His grace and if we reject it often enough, the call will grow weaker and weaker because of the barrier we have errected between us and and God. I don't mean to be judgmental, but you must have made a conscious decisions over the years to reject God and follow your own way.

Did you ever have faith? If so, what did you do with it?

God bless,
Noel.

1. Interesting, I have never heard free will as an argument for the existence of god! In a way I think its an argument against god. Why would god create a person with the neural pathways a bit tangled up, making him prone to lack of emotion and detachment (psychopath) and then give him the free will to go "express" himself and thus maybe rape and kill innocent people? If I was a Christian I would be a bit mad at him! (god I mean!)

2. With regard to the miracle (not the religious type!) of our existence and our minds. Lack of explanation does not equal god.

3. With regard to faith, I lost faith when I was of the age when I started to question people rather than blindly accept what they said without evidence. Thus when my mother didnt have a reasonable explanation as to how a big fat man with a white beard and a big sack was able to fit down our chimney and not get burned by our fire, I began to suspect that she was telling fibs! Similarly when I couldnt find an answer better than "just" or "because" or "the bible says", a book written by many different people, based on hearsay and a lot of third party accounts at a time when the majority of people couldnt read and thought you would fall off if you tried to go around the world, well then I realised that it was no different to Santy, a figment of peoples imagination, created to comfort and console, to give hope when there is suffering and based on what you said "yearning" for religion. As Richard Dawkins said, yearning or wanting there to be a god and life after death has no effect on whether one exists or not.


Final point: If there is a god I challenge you to engage with us here and elighten us. Maybe sign up and post a thread or 2!

Hivemind187

faceman wrote: »

evidence please? God didnt write the bible

That depends on who you ask.

Depeche's argument is that if the god of the bible is really as accounted then he does genuinely act like some kind of petulent child.

This comes back to another qustion which is what brings about the switch from "smite y'all" god to "Live and let live" god (old/new testament).

Hivemind187

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

From now on instead of using Zeus as the image of the Christian God I will think of a giant Dick Cheney in flowing white robes up in the clouds scowling down on us all.

Thats actually horrifying.

kelly1

Dades wrote: »

Hi Noel. I see you are still refusing to accept what atheism actually means.

It is not a rejection of God, it is a simple disbelief in his (or any of their) actual existence, similar to your disbelief in Krishna. How you live your life after that is up to the individual.

Thanks I know what atheism means but I really think there's more to it than disbelief.

God never created an atheist. As I said earlier, faith in God is a gift/grace from God and God is fair so He's not going to say, "you, you and you, you're going to be born with no faith in me". God doesn't mess us around.

I seriously believe that if every atheist spent some time seriously asking themselves if they every rejected God's grace, they would find that they had. But God is subtle, He never forces His will upon us. We're not all like Saul on the road to Damascus. We won't get an earth-shattering blast of God's grace like he did. God wants us to make the first move towards Him becuase He doesn't want to violate our free-will.

I wouldn't have the faith I have now if I hadn't asked for it. Only my last day in Lourdes back in 2001 I prayed for faith and my prayer was answered big time! My wife still finds the change in me amazing.

God bless,
Noel.

kelly1

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Consider that from the instant of the big bang, which has sent atoms and molecules out in to the universe the simple interactions of these components come togther to form more complex interactions as they travel. It is the interaction of every molecule in the universe to which you have some link, throughout history, that has led to you making a decision.

I assume therefore that you sympathize with Hitler, Stalin, Polpot and child rapists? Your philosophy is a very dangerous one.

Hivemind187

Caveat wrote: »

...but it does include rejection of all organised religion - as it is the opinions of atheists thatthese people are misguided. They believe this with as much conviction as the believers embrace their god/gods.

And there lies my problem with atheism - it is absolutist in itself and just like the convictions of theists, this conviction cannot be proved.

Which is why I am an agnostic (in itself, one of the most frequently ill defined concepts)

You're assuming that Atheism is a belief in something rather than a reasonned position.

99% of all atheists were born into religious familes and have had extensive exposure to the religious element. The "rejection" of such beliefs is not done out of malice but out of rational discounting of the possibility.

No atheist is claiming to be able to proove god dosnt exist, they dont need to. The existance of a deity requires more assumptions and indefinable and untestable concepts than that of a universe that operates to a system of specific laws and rules based on physical interactions of matter and energy.

Atheism is not aboslute, it is the reasoned deduction from available evidence that their is no God.

kelly1

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Even spending a million years in purgatory is nothing when compared to the infinite eternity.I have never heard a satisfactory defence of the injustice that otherwise good, honest people will be condemned by God while people who live an evil life but genuinely repent near death will be richly rewarded. It is one of the most horrible aspects of Christianity and was one reason why I could not continue to believe in it.

Nobody good goes to Hell. Hell is the only fit place for those who effectively hate God.

How could a merciful God reject someone who genuinely repented of their sins?? This would imply a limit to God's mercy and therefore would not be God-like.

How do you know who goes to Hell and who doesn't? I believe that God in a last attempt to save souls gives the dying person grace to repent of their sins. If they reject this grace, it's a matter of choice. I believe that many who go to Hell are too proud to admit that they need God's forgiveness and in their pride they throw salvation away.

Hivemind187

kelly1 wrote: »

I assume therefore that you sympathize with Hitler, Stalin, Polpot and child rapists? Your philosophy is a very dangerous one.

What? Where the f*** did that come from?

Edit: Oh right, now I get you.

You assume that I have to sympathise with these creeps because of the fact that the universe is essentially laid out by the interactions of molecules. Thats what you call a jump in logic. You forgot to include that those little molecules may have placed me in a different position and thus my feelings towards murderers would be sympathy. Only if they are actually sick, otherwise **** em.

Edit 2: Actually, considering your belief that "god made everything" (which IS a philosophy and an opinion rather than a fact) then HE is responsible for my "dangerous philsophy" ... which isnt a philophy, its a theory. So by extention its your Gods fault again.

PoleStar

kelly1 wrote: »

I assume therefore that you sympathize with Hitler, Stalin, Polpot and child rapists? Your philosophy is a very dangerous one.

This is interesting. People often hint at atheists as beings with inferior morals.

I have never met an atheist with inferior morals to a religious person. Indeed being atheist actually frees you from the constraints in the bible. I can love and do good to anyone. If I meet a non-believer, I am not compelled to kill them by stoning and burn their villages, as god would have me do. Read the bible, its in there!

Also if I can answer for Hivermind, I dont sympathise with Hitler.

However, the Church did!

Check your history, it was the Church who listed all the local Jews to facilitate the work of the SS in carrying out their plan. Doesnt sound moral to me!

Caveat

Hivemind187 wrote: »

it is the reasoned deduction from available evidence that their is no God.

Maybe sounds trite, but how do atheists what to look for?

You make it sound like the approach of atheists is almost scientific - e.g. they start open minded and then systematically deconstruct the religion of their upbringing. I don't think this is the case a lot of the time - a lot of atheists start by not believing, therefore any "reasoned deduction" is tainted.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

If we are composed purely of atoms and have no spirit, how does the materialist explain things like, will, choice, intelligence, love, appreciation of beauty, emotions, yearning for God?

Quite easily actually.

God existing raises far more questions that God not existing.

Ultimately belief in God doesn't make sense, it is simply a stop gap answer.

For example, "God" doesn't actually explain why for example you feel love. You say that we feel love because God wants us to feel love. But that isn't actually an answer, its just a shifting of the question to some where else.

It simply stops you asking the question because you (happily) accept that we can't understand why God actually does the things he does.

You end up knowing less not more. But you are happy, not because you know the answer but because you have found a reason to stop asking the question.

Hivemind187

PoleStar wrote: »

Also if I can answer for Hivermind, I dont sympathise with Hitler.

However, the Church did!

Check your history, it was the Church who listed all the local Jews to facilitate the work of the SS in carrying out their plan. Doesnt sound moral to me!

Yes you can.

And its the usual death cry of the theist - "Atheists have no morals because they dont have god" ... quietly ignoring the facts of the argument.

No atheist has ever bombed a marketplace because there is no god.

Lots of theists have bombed marketplaces because they believe there is a god.

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.

kelly1

Hivemind187 wrote: »

What? Where the f*** did that come from?

Edit: Oh right, now I get you.

You assume that I have to sympathise with these creeps because of the fact that the universe is essentially laid out by the interactions of molecules. Thats what you call a jump in logic. You forgot to include that those little molecules may have placed me in a different position and thus my feelings towards murderers would be sympathy. Only if they are actually sick, otherwise **** em.

I'm not sure I understand you. If we are all the product of the big bang and have no free will then you can't blame anyone for anything. Would n't this mean that you should have sympathy for anyone who commits evil acts rather that condemnation and revulsion? Are you against putting murderers and drug dealers in jail? After all, they had no choice did they? They really should all be release in fairness, shouldn't they?!

Pompey Magnus

kelly1 wrote: »

Nobody good goes to Hell. Hell is the only fit place for those who effectively hate God.

How could a merciful God reject someone who genuinely repented of their sins?? This would imply a limit to God's mercy and therefore would not be God-like.

How do you know who goes to Hell and who doesn't? I believe that God in a last attempt to save souls gives the dying person grace to repent of their sins. If they reject this grace, it's a matter of choice. I believe that many who go to Hell are too proud to admit that they need God's forgiveness and in their pride they throw salvation away.

Out of interest was Purgatory mentioned by Jesus or was it a later invention by the Church like Limbo?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand you. If we are all the product of the big bang and have no free will then you can't blame anyone for anything. Would n't this mean that you should have sympathy for anyone who commits evil acts rather that condemnation and revulsion?

If free will doesn't exist why would you have sympathy for them either?

kelly1 wrote: »

They really should all be release in fairness, shouldn't they?!

Again, why would you release them if one believes they have no free will. If they can't choose not to murder someone they are better off in jail are they not?

Hivemind187

Caveat wrote: »

Maybe sounds trite, but how do atheists what to look for?

You make it sound like the approach of atheists is almost scientific - e.g. they start open minded and then systematically deconstruct the religion of their upbringing. I don't think this is the case a lot of the time - a lot of atheists start by not believing, therefore any "reasoned deduction" is tainted.

Thats an assumption on your part Caveat.

Firstly, atheists dont need to look for anything, simple reason will show that it requires more assumptions to believe in god than to not believe, therefore it is more likely that god does not exist.

The burden of proof is not on the atheist since they are not making wild claims about the nature of the universe. In most cases they turn to science which can provide, testable, repeatedable and verifiable results - something religion cannot do.

To assume that "atheists" start out not believing is a mistake. As I have pointed out 99% of atheists will have come from upbringings where the beilef in god and religion was accepted as a fact, not really discussed let alone questioned. Somewhere along the line something tweaks a part of the individuals brain and they start asking questions, once that process begins then it isn't long before their faith in the so-called almighty begins to unravel as the evidence fails to materialise.

So yes, in most cases the Athiests approach is scientific and no, they dont start out as atheists looking to justify their non-belief - they start out as believers (ages 1-10ish) then start asking questions (11-15ish) then begin to form their own opinions through rason and evidence (16+ish).

PoleStar

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand you. If we are all the product of the big bang and have no free will then you can't blame anyone for anything. Would n't this mean that you should have sympathy for anyone who commits evil acts rather that condemnation and revulsion? Are you against putting murderers and drug dealers in jail? After all, they had no choice did they? They really should all be release in fairness, shouldn't they?!

You are still avoiding one big problem: the catholic church was one of the biggest sympathises of the nazi movement.

seamus

It's all causal in my head. If God gave us free will, then he can't punish us failing to do what he wanted because he never told us what he wanted.

If I drop a cockroach on the floor and it walks right instead of left, is that the cockroach's fault because I gave him free will, or my fault because I never told him to walk left?

Dades

Caveat wrote: »

You make it sound like the approach of atheists is almost scientific - e.g. they start open minded and then systematically deconstruct the religion of their upbringing.

I believe that for most of the professed atheists on this forum, that is the way of it. But it's been pointed out before (many times) - atheism is just a belief. It not a way of life, or a pronounced truth. So like any other belief - there is no reason why someone cannot hold it.

Caveat wrote: »

I don't think this is the case a lot of the time - a lot of atheists start by not believing, therefore any "reasoned deduction" is tainted.

Run that one by Scofflaw - he doesn't come from a religious family.
Ask him about his tainted reasoned deduction.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

God never created an atheist.

Of course not, God doesn't exist.

kelly1 wrote: »

I seriously believe that if every atheist spent some time seriously asking themselves if they every rejected God's grace, they would find that they had.

Well would define saying "You don't exist, but even if you did exist you would be are a horrific monster and I wouldn't worship you" rejecting God's grace?

If so I might have done that ....

kelly1 wrote: »

But God is subtle, He never forces His will upon us. We're not all like Saul on the road to Damascus. We won't get an earth-shattering blast of God's grace like he did. God wants us to make the first move towards Him becuase He doesn't want to violate our free-will.

Funny how that looks very similar to him simply not existing.

Wicknight - I don't want people to get jealous of my millions of Euros, so I don't spend them, I don't put them in a bank, I don't let anyone know I have millions of Euros

Jim - Er, Wicknight you don't have millions of Euros

Wicknight - I do!

Jim - Ok show me the money

Wicknight - As I said, I can't because I don't want you to get jealous of all my money

Jim - Seriously I wouldn't mind, show me your money

Wicknight - No really, I can't, you will just be jealous

Jim - Funny how you having a million euro looks exactly like you not having a million euro

Wicknight - Umm, yeah I guess

It is amazing how everything God is supposed to do is on purpose so subtle that it almost looks like he isn't there. But I guess that is all part of the test

kelly1 wrote: »

Only my last day in Lourdes back in 2001 I prayed for faith and my prayer was answered big time!

If you didn't already believe in God why exactly where you praying in Lourdes?

Seems to me you really wanted something to happen (hence you went to Lourdes to pray) and amazingly you convinced yourself that something did happen.

The "John Travolta" effect (copyright wicknight) as I call it.

What you fail to realise is that you actually changed yourself. You wanted to change, and you changed. Pretty simple. God had nothing to do with it.

But because humans have a tendency to not think this way, you prefer to believe that something external to you made you change.

It seems to me that faith in God seems to come as a result of a lack of faith in oneself

robindch

PoleStar wrote:

You are still avoiding one big problem: the catholic church was one of the biggest sympathises of the nazi movement.

To which I can only add that it was the a Roman Catholic priest called Ludwig Kaas, chairman of the Center Party, who exchanged ecclesiastical guarantees from Hitler for Kaas' support for the Ermächtigungsgesetz, the Enabling Act by which Hitler assumed dictatorial power.

More simply, catholic support put Hitler in power.

I never remember hearing that in school. Does anybody else remember hearing it?

Caveat

Hivemind187 wrote: »

To assume that "atheists" start out not believing is a mistake.

It's not really what I meant - my fault.

What I was referring to was that typically during teenage years, as you pointed out, some people question the beliefs they were brought up with. Its then, often, that some of these people "decide" they are an atheist - the reasoned deduction/further investigation may or may not come later (it often doesn't in my experience), but the decision in the hormonal and rebellious teenage mind has usually already been made - based often on little more than disaffection from their erstwhile "church". Their adherence to their new convictions are then no more nonsensical than those of the believers. If and when these people further ponder their position they are half heartedly looking for something that they believe they will not find and don't want to find.

I'm not saying this is the case for all professed atheists but I've encountered this quite often.

kelly1

PoleStar wrote: »

I have never met an atheist with inferior morals to a religious person.

Just look at the communist countries and see what's going on! How would you know anyway whether the morals of an atheist are inferior to those of a believer? God is the yardstick, not us.

PoleStar wrote: »

Indeed being atheist actually frees you from the constraints in the bible. I can love and do good to anyone. If I meet a non-believer, I am not compelled to kill them by stoning and burn their villages, as god would have me do. Read the bible, its in there!

It's amazing how people twist scripture to suit their own agenda.

PoleStar wrote: »

However, the Church did!

Check your history, it was the Church who listed all the local Jews to facilitate the work of the SS in carrying out their plan. Doesnt sound moral to me!

Another lie about the Church. Haven't you heard about the Vatican archive material that was released which showed that Piux XII sheltered Jews from Hitler? The Church has many enemies because as Christ said "those who live in darkness can't abide the light".

seamus

Wicknight wrote: »

Seems to me you really wanted something to happen (hence you went to Lourdes to pray) and amazingly you convinced yourself that something did happen.

I also tend to believe that when someone puts enough effort into really wanting something and believing that it can happen if they just believe hard enough, they subconsciously influence themselves and those around them sufficiently to cause what they want, to actually happen.
Which is why praying for the lotto so rarely works, whereas praying for help to get a job or help to "get through these tough times" does.

Just look at the communist countries and see what's going on!

I think his spirit was that he never met an atheist whose atheistic beliefs caused them to have less morals than a religious person. Communism has an horrific moral code because of the communist ethos. Communism isn't atheistic, it's just anti-religion because allowing religion is counteractive to its ethos.

Hivemind187

kelly1 wrote: »

It's amazing how people twist scripture to suit their own agenda.
.

Ha ... hah ha ... hahahahahahahahahhahhaaahahhaahaaa

No really ... lol.

Hivemind187

seamus wrote: »

I also tend to believe that when someone puts enough effort into really wanting something and believing that it can happen if they just believe hard enough, they subconsciously influence themselves and those around them sufficiently to cause what they want, to actually happen.
Which is why praying for the lotto so rarely works, whereas praying for help to get a job or help to "get through these tough times" does.

As you have said they are two entirely different thngs.

A christian might really really believe in God and desire that god to exist ... it doesnt cause the devine being to pop into existance and retroactively make him the creator of all things.

kelly1

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Out of interest was Purgatory mentioned by Jesus or was it a later invention by the Church like Limbo?

The word purgatory was never mentioned by Christ but He did refer to temporal punishment after death and so did the apostles. Likewise He didn't use the word trinity. Purgatory is an article of faith while Limbo was only ever a theory which tried to explain where the souls of innocent baptized children went to.

Hivemind187

kelly1 wrote: »

Another lie about the Church. Haven't you heard about the Vatican archive material that was released which showed that Piux XII sheltered Jews from Hitler? The Church has many enemies because as Christ said "those who live in darkness can't abide the light".

Citation?

kelly1

PoleStar wrote: »

You are still avoiding one big problem: the catholic church was one of the biggest sympathises of the nazi movement.

Would you mind sharing your historical proof from primary sources? Or have you just been putting to much faith in hearsay?

Hivemind187

kelly1 wrote: »

Would you mind sharing your historical proof from primary sources? Or have you just been putting to much faith in hearsay?

Thats two.

Are you trying to make me laugh?

kelly1

seamus wrote: »

It's all causal in my head. If God gave us free will, then he can't punish us failing to do what he wanted because he never told us what he wanted.

Have you never heard of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? You have no excuse.

Hivemind187

kelly1 wrote: »

Have you never heard of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? You have no excuse.

And thats three.

Since when was this forum a pulpit?

Edit: Just to clarify, because I dont want people misunderstanding. I am counting the number of laughably illogical or irrational statements that are being made by Kelly1. It is not possible to discuss or debate with someone who will resort to nonsense and hearsay yet attack anyone that appears to be using the same.