Heatons denied refund!

foggy_lad

was in my local Heatons store yesterday returning a faulty pair of shoes and after checking there was no other pair in stock the sales assistant decided to give me a refund!

so i thought goood but then she asked me to fill in a form with my name address date of birth telephone number and a contact number as well as the reason for seeking the refund!

i thought this was a bit much so refused to sign well the flurry of excitement that followed would make the A-Team look like Scouts i immediately surrounded by security guard and 3 members of staff while i waited for the manager!

i eventually insisted on my right to the refund and signed nothing as there is NO obligation to sign for any refund! even the manager insisted this was only store policy!

staw away from heatons and keep yuour Statutory Rights intact!!

jameshayes

You have to do this in most department stores, Dunnes, Pennys etc

kc66

I had to do that in Lidl. Didnt see any problem with it.

dudara

A lot of stores ask for this. If you feel uncomfortable with it, you can always put down details other than own.

TBH, you did get your refund, so they didn't deny you it.

aCA

Are stores legally entitled to refuse a refund on a faulty item if you don't provide them with all this information? This kinda stuff always annoys me. Like, why do they need to know your date of birth?

Dudara is right, you should just put down a silly made up name.

eth0_

Talk about over-reacting! They have good reason for doing this, namely to identify people who persistantly return items for a refund.

traceybere

I'm not sure they can make you sign if the product is faulty - once you have your receipt.

If it was as a good will gesture and the product wasn't damaged then maybe

Did you have a reciept? Did you get your refund in the end?

eth0_

aCA wrote: »

Like, why do they to know your date of birth?

I seriously doubt the OP was asked to provide his DOB. There is zero reason for needing this information. Anywhere i've gotten a refund they either just requested a signature, or sig and address.

Sizzler

I dont see what the big deal was All you had to do was put down a random name and address and you wouldnt be on here ranting about them not giving you a refund.

6th

dudara wrote: »

A lot of stores ask for this. If you feel uncomfortable with it, you can always put down details other than own.

Yeah Dunnes always go through the same process, giving fake details can be great fun too.

ejmaztec

Also Woodies, Tesco and Argos, to name but three.

I always assume that the reason is, that if they examine the goods more closely later, and decide you've damaged the goods, they'll send you a bill. Of course, this could be my paranoia working overtime.

It's probably more of an internal audit procedure, to prove that the person on the till didn't steal the cash and pretend that they gave someone a refund.

If you do give the wrong details, you could cost someone on the till their job. If the management do a spot-check and find the name/address bogus, they could assume that the member of staff is pulling a fast one. So, while you think it's a great hoot, that sacked employee could be trying to get another job with no references and a possible court appearance.

Oryx

eth0_ wrote: »

I seriously doubt the OP was asked to provide his DOB. There is zero reason for needing this information. Anywhere i've gotten a refund they either just requested a signature, or sig and address.

Afaik stores ask for this info so they can keep track of 'repeat offenders'. Some people make a living (of sorts) from scamming stores through refunds. Yes, you can give false information, but it is a layer of security which may put off some.

egan007

I can see it now......

Paulw

They have no legal right to ask you to fill in the form at all. If the good are faulty, you are entitled to a full refund. Nothing more, nothing less.

It may be store policy, but you're well within your rights not to fill it in, and legally they can't refuse to refund you.

Ahh good old heatons at it again . Same thing happend to my parents and i posted about it here. What annoyed me was my parents were surrounded by security guards also and they are in their 70's . I second it in saying "Stay Away"

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

123 Fake Street FTW

Cactus Col

I'd be demanding a refund and at least an apology if they did that with me.

They can ask you to fill out a form but you can refuse it. That's a load of crap. There is no reason to make somebody feel like a criminal.

foggy_lad

some nice replies and most of ye have no idea of your rights as consumers!

Oryx

foggy_lad wrote: »

some nice replies and most of ye have no idea of your rights as consumers!

Curious. Which rights?

ejmaztec

foggy_lad wrote: »

some nice replies and most of ye have no idea of your rights as consumers!

Having a statutory right is one thing, but you still got your refund, despite causing unnecessary turmoil in a shop. It wasn't as if they were going gouge your eyes out! These systems are in place to protect the consumer as well as the business.

Toto Wolfcastle

I tend to think that if you have nothing to hide then what's the problem? Most shops only ask for a general address and signature.

parsi

You should have given the details of the CEO of 3 Ireland and thus solve all your problems...

Doctor DooM

Those details are generally used to cover incongruities in returns. Its actually never going to be used against you.

Seriously though, and not being smart, you were getting your refund, would you not be nice to the shop assistant and just make something up?

Paulw

SDooM wrote: »

you were getting your refund, would you not be nice to the shop assistant and just make something up?

Why should you give any details (true or even fake details)? You are well within your rights to refuse.

As the old phrase goes - Just say No.

ztoical

Easons do that as well, when a refund is put through the till it automatically prints off a refund slip. It asks for name, address, reason for refund etc when i worked there usually we'd just have them sign their name and we'd fill everything else in. Staff can't do refunds only managers or supervisors and they have to sign it as well. Its not just to stop people from scamming refunds [people try and return books with other shops stickers on them, library books etc etc] but also to stop staff from scamming the till. Happened in virgin cinemas when I worked there, staff would sell tickets to friends then refund them but not take the cinema tickets off them. I was a supervisor at Easons and I did hundreds of refunds and exchanges ever week and I never had anyone throw a fit about filling out the refund slip.

I think you'll find pretty every store does that or will be doing that now esp has tills have become more and more sophisticated. Honestly I can't see what the issue is, they don't ask for ID for anything you can put any name/number you want down - its mainly just for their records.

Refuse if you want but make sure if your going to yell at someone you only yell at the manager - staff have no control over this, they are told to do it.

Dman001

I thought you had to fill a form out if you are returning a non-faulty item. I wouldn't want people knowing my personal information, even if it was only a name and address.

ztoical

Dman001 wrote: »

I thought you had to fill a form out if you are returning a non-faulty item. I wouldn't want people knowing my personal information, even if it was only a name and address.

Alot of the refund slips are automatically printed by the till [alot of shops use the same till software] and they all contain the same info name address phone no reason for refund etc etc I know alot of shops aren't that picky about filling them in.

Like I mentioned earlier when I worked retail we'd normally just get people to sign them and we'd fill in the refund details, wouldn't look for an address or a phone number - some people filled everything in cus I'd just hand it to them and say "can you please sign that" and I'd be getting the refund out of the till or putting it back on the credit card and they'd fill everything in while I wasn't looking.

I can't speak for other shops but the slips were kept in the tills untill it was cashed up and the number of slips were compared to the end of day till read to make sure the number matches. The slips are then kept in the cash office for a set time then shredded.

Doctor DooM

Paulw wrote: »

Why should you give any details (true or even fake details)? You are well within your rights to refuse.

As the old phrase goes - Just say No.

As I said- to be nice to the sales assistant. Will you get what you want? Eventually. Will you be striking any blows for consumers out there? Not at all.

Corruptedmorals

Exactly ztoical, I work in Dunnes..not in customer service, but I know the till automatically prints the refund slip out, the reason is printed automatically as 'unsatisfactory', obviously there's a faulty option somewhere, but you just write your name and address. Big deal. As said, the slips are matched against the till read. Why do people think members of staff memorise names and addresses off them? How exactly could it benefit them? It's not as if you write your credit card pin down on the slip. People are just too paranoid.

Sam Vimes

foggy_lad wrote: »

some nice replies and most of ye have no idea of your rights as consumers!

we all have lots of rights but sometimes, such as this time, its not appropriate to exercise them. they asked for your name and address as many, many shops do when giving refunds. they did not tie you down and shine a light in your eyes. all you had to do was put in fake details and the whole fuss would have been unnecessary.

also, at no point did they deny you a refund. i suggest you change the title of the thread since its a lie

and if you don't like the policy, then don't shop in dunnes, argos, tesco, burtons, maplin, carphone warehouse, 3G, O2, vodafone, eason, etc, etc. in fact, you should probably never buy anything again since its most likely a policy of every store in the country

ejmaztec wrote: »

If you do give the wrong details, you could cost someone on the till their job. If the management do a spot-check and find the name/address bogus, they could assume that the member of staff is pulling a fast one. So, while you think it's a great hoot, that sacked employee could be trying to get another job with no references and a possible court appearance.

any store that sacked someone for that would find themselves in court very quickly for unfair dismisal since it is not only possible but extremely likely that the customer did it himself. now if the hand writing was the same on all of them....

MrPudding

The reason for requesting this information is to cut down on fraud. There have been cases in the past where store managers, no necessarily Heaton’s, have defrauded their companies of thousands of pounds / Euros / Dollars by processing fake refunds.

Many years ago I worked in Currys in Northern Ireland. After a store manager in the UK stole around £100 000 by processing fake refunds over an extended period of time, they started requesting details from the refundee which could, if there was a requirement, be check to confirm that the refund was a real one.

So no, you probably are not required to give this information to exercise you statutory right to a refund, but I think the OP’s response was just a tad OTT and IMHO quite unreasonable.

Chris

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

I think the only fraud by a store manager that writing down names and addresses is going to prevent is for store managers who don't have access to a phone book which gives hundreds of thousands of local names and addresses.

Boggles

foggy_lad wrote: »

i thought this was a bit much so refused to sign well the flurry of excitement that followed would make the A-Team look like Scouts i immediately surrounded by security guard and 3 members of staff while i waited for the manager!

staw away from heatons and keep yuour Statutory Rights intact!!

Doesn't seem to be much sympathy for the OP, people saying he over reacted, etc. He was legally entitled to refuse and was threated like a shop lifter, I think it was the store that over reacted, correct?

A store can bring in all the policies they want, they can ask you to stand on one leg while they give you a refund, that doesn't mean you have to, the law of the land trumps all. It's not our problem if the shop has a problem with fraud, no more is it our problem if there is a spillage in fruit & veg, it's their problem.

Fair play to the OP.

ejmaztec

Commander Vimes wrote: »

any store that sacked someone for that would find themselves in court very quickly for unfair dismisal since it is not only possible but extremely likely that the customer did it himself. now if the hand writing was the same on all of them....

Having carried out hundreds of audits over the years, none of the perpetrators who myself and my colleagues happened upon, ever had the neck to claim unfair dismissal, having been caught red-handed. Some of them operated in collusion with friends or family, visiting the premises, so the hand-writing was never the same.

Even if a person is innocent, the doubt is there for evermore, especially as the person who has given fake details can't be traced.

Boggles

Commander Vimes wrote: »

we all have lots of rights but sometimes, such as this time, its not appropriate to exercise them. they asked for your name and address as many, many shops do when giving refunds. they did not tie you down and shine a light in your eyes. all you had to do was put in fake details and the whole fuss would have been unnecessary.

Well thats hardly helping the company combat fraud, by providing fraudlant details. Worse than providing no information.

Sam Vimes

ejmaztec wrote: »

Having carried out hundreds of audits over the years, none of the perpetrators who myself and my colleagues happened upon, ever had the neck to claim unfair dismissal, having been caught red-handed. Some of them operated in collusion with friends or family, visiting the premises, so the hand-writing was never the same.

Even if a person is innocent, the doubt is there for evermore, especially as the person who has given fake details can't be traced.

well i'm not talking about people who were actually stealing, i'm talking about people who did nothing wrong and were sacked because a customer signed a fake name. there'd always be some other evidence to go on than a few receipts with fake details if the person was actually stealing. did you ever sack someone on no evidence other than the recipt details?

Boggles wrote: »

Well thats hardly helping the company combat fraud, by providing fraudlant details. Worse than providing no information.

the OP was talking about his rights being infringed. he doesn't give a monkeys if he's helping the shop combat fraud and i wouldn't either tbh. i've signed my name to a good few of those things. i knew i didn't have to and i wasn't doing it out of some kind of sense of responsibility to the shop. i just knew that refunds can be difficult things to get and i didn't want to do anything to make it more difficult

Saruman

To be honest, while i understand why the OP might be a little pissed off.. im curious... did he simply say "no thanks, i would rather not fill that out" all the while smiling? Or did he get as belligerent as he comes across in his post, advising people not to shop in heatons because they gave him the refund he asked for?

Even if he made no threatening body language or said anything threatening, perhaps the staff are under instruction to get security for the protection of staff in case the customer gets violent... which is something im sure happens from time to time.

Boggles

Commander Vimes wrote: »

the OP was talking about his rights being infringed. he doesn't give a monkeys if he's helping the shop combat fraud and i wouldn't either tbh. i've signed my name to a good few of those things. i knew i didn't have to and i wasn't doing it out of some kind of sense of responsibility to the shop. i just knew that refunds can be difficult things to get and i didn't want to do anything to make it more difficult

His case was consumer law 101, he bought product, product faulty, therefore moneys back.

How can a refund be hard get in that situation?

Boggles

Saruman wrote: »

To be honest, while i understand why the OP might be a little pissed off.. im curious... did he simply say "no thanks, i would rather not fill that out" all the while smiling? Or did he get as belligerent as he comes across in his post, advising people not to shop in heatons because they gave him the refund he asked for?

Even if he made no threatening body language or said anything threatening, perhaps the staff are under instruction to get security for the protection of staff in case the customer gets violent... which is something im sure happens from time to time.

Doesn't matter if the OP was belly laughing and doing a jig, he didn't have to provide the details he was asked for.

Saruman

No he did not have to, who said he did? What has that statement got to do with anything?

Anyway just because you have consumer rights, does not mean shops want to let you have them or even know about them. for instance, i buy a laptop.. its doa, i bring back and they want to send it off for repair?? I say no i would like a new one, or a refund Both of which im entitled to but they may refuse and force me to take legal action with the small claims court...
the OP had a much simpler encounter, refund was offered, all he was asked to do was fill out a quick form which everyone asks for. Instead if simply doing it, he caused a scene and was probably held up by doing so.
I think thats the point here, while he is under no obligation to fill out the form.. for the sake of expediency he could have simply done it.. or scribbled a few lines or crap to satisfy them.

Boggles

Saruman wrote: »

No he did not have to, who said he did? What has that statement got to do with anything?

Anyway just because you have consumer rights, does not mean shops want to let you have them or even know about them. for instance, i buy a laptop.. its doa, i bring back and they want to send it off for repair?? I say no i would like a new one, or a refund Both of which im entitled to but they may refuse and force me to take legal action with the small claims court...
the OP had a much simpler encounter, refund was offered, all he was asked to do was fill out a quick form which everyone asks for. Instead if simply doing it, he caused a scene and was probably held up by doing so.
I think thats the point here, while he is under no obligation to fill out the form.. for the sake of expediency he could have simply done it.. or scribbled a few lines or crap to satisfy them.

How do you know he created a scene?, according to his post he just refused, which he was entitled do.

Don't know where your going with your hypothetical laptop situation. Op's case actually happened, much easier deal with that.

magnumlady

egan007 wrote: »

I can see it now......

hee hee that is so funny.

I've had to give my name and address in loads of stores where I've had faulty items:
PC World, Tesco, Dunnes, Penneys, Homebase don't see the problem

MrPudding

Roundtower2 wrote: »

I think the only fraud by a store manager that writing down names and addresses is going to prevent is for store managers who don't have access to a phone book which gives hundreds of thousands of local names and addresses.

And when that person randomly selected by the manager form the phone book is called and asked to confirm the details of their refund as part of a fraud investigation?

That was the point of collection contact details for the person getting the refund, and this was something that we always explained to the person getting the refund. Of course it is not a foolproof way to stop fraud, if someone really wants to defraud a company they work for they will manage somehow to do it. Just making it that little bit harder and making it seem that little bit more likely you will be caught is probably enough to put most people off it.

And in my time in Currys, where I probably processed dozens and dozens of refunds, I never had anyone refusing to give details.

MrP

MrPudding

magnumlady wrote: »

PC World, Tesco, Dunnes, Penneys, Homebase don't see the problem

Most reasonable people don't.

MrP

Boggles

MrPudding wrote: »

Most reasonable people don't.

MrP

There are alot of perfectly good "reasonable" people out who would not like to give out their personal details especially when they have no obligation to do so.

Sam Vimes

Boggles wrote: »

His case was consumer law 101, he bought product, product faulty, therefore moneys back.

How can a refund be hard get in that situation?

poorly trained staff, pr!cks, technicalities. there are many reasons why someone might not get what they're entitled to. take a look on this board for a few examples

Saruman wrote: »

for instance, i buy a laptop.. its doa, i bring back and they want to send it off for repair?? I say no i would like a new one, or a refund Both of which im entitled

while i agree with your point, you're not entitled to that. a repair is perfectly legal

Boggles

Commander Vimes wrote: »

poorly trained staff, pr!cks, technicalities. there are many reasons why someone might not get what they're entitled to. take a look on this board for a few examples



while i agree with your point, you're not entitled to that. a repair is perfectly legal

Your entitled to a replacement or complete refund, product has to work for a reasonable time under the law, the laptop was DOA.

Sam Vimes

Boggles wrote: »

Your entitled to a replacement or complete refund, product has to work for a reasonable time under the law, the laptop was DOA.

it doesn't mention anything about that in the legislation

ejmaztec

Commander Vimes wrote: »

well i'm not talking about people who were actually stealing, i'm talking about people who did nothing wrong and were sacked because a customer signed a fake name. there'd always be some other evidence to go on than a few receipts with fake details if the person was actually stealing. did you ever sack someone on no evidence other than the recipt details?

Most of the people that came under the microscope admitted it and were dismissed by their management. If it was regarded as something minor, they were never prosecuted, just sent off with no references.

Where there was an element of doubt, those people were never dismissed. They were just watched very carefully. As I said in my previous post, with fake details on a refund document, nobody could prove it either way. When the doubt is there, the damage is done. A perfectly innocent person’s reputation is shot down in flames because no-one can prove that they are innocent. It’s always in the back of some manager’s mind that the person might have been up to no good. All this probably down to the moron who was having a bit of a laugh by giving false info. The innocent person on the till can’t prove 100% that they didn’t do the dirty because the joker’s existence can’t be proven.

I’ve never sacked anyone for anything. External auditors are simply spectators. We just watch the trouble that we’ve triggered, from a safe distance.

I find that smaller business concerns, with neurotic owners, who wouldn’t trust their own Granny, are more likely to sack someone on the spot, because they’ve jumped to conclusions and haven’t thought about the consequences. I’ve also known some who have actually called in the Guards, before doing anything else!

If some employer did sack someone without the proper evidence, and found himself in the middle of an Unfair Dismissal claim, there would still be people viewing the proceedings, who would be thinking that there’s no smoke without fire etc etc.

Boggles

Commander Vimes wrote: »

it doesn't mention anything about that in the legislation

Yes it does, repair, replacement, refund

You are entitled to one of the above, doesn't have to be the one the shop chooses.

Because the fact the product never did work, and assuming you notifyed the shop straight away. You did not accept faulty goods. Therefore you do not have to settle for a repair.

Oryx

Boggles wrote: »

Yes it does, repair, replacement, refund

You are entitled to one of the above, doesn't have to be the one the shop chooses.

Yes, it does.