Cheap Meat or Animal Welfare

Minder

Channel 4 are running a series of programmes called the Big Food Fight. Last night Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall presented the first of three programmes that seeks to expose the conditions in which cheap chicken meat is reared for consumption.

In essence, the supermarkets sell 39 day old chickens that are bred specifically for maximum weight gain during their short lives. The supermarkets can afford to offer these birds at special prices - 2 for a fiver. EU guidelines say that the animals can be kept in pens at a density of seventeen animals per square meter. The maximum amount of light allowed in 24 hours is 23.5 hours.

Poor conditions, culling of uneconomic animals and forced feeding cycles can result in animals that are barely able to carry their own body weight.

Personally I buy the best chicken I can afford. Not particularly because I am concerned about the animals welfare, but because a healthy free range chicken has better muscle texture - better meat and that means better flavour.

Also there seems to be a lack of thrift among the wider population. A large chicken will feed my family for three days. Breast meat is one dinner, legs, thighs and wings another. The carcass makes a stock which will be the basis of a risotto or stew.

My question is this, is it acceptable to treat animals in this way? Is welfare and husbandry a distant second to the price for the consumer?

MoominPapa

Watching the show and I think its great.

I think your point about thrift is very important and shows why we should be buying and eating less meat. In the last couple of months I've switched from eating meat on most days to going veggie most days, not only am I saving a money I'm shedding lbs. I would have considered myself pretty healthy and in good shape due to what I considered a good diet based on 90%ish fresh home cooking but I was kidding myself. The amount of meat I was eating was ridiculous. Now I'm planning on reducing meat to 1 or 2 days a week and with the money I'm saving buying organic. I'm feeling fitter, livelier (and hornier;) ) so their are tangible health benefits as well

For a few years now, since I could afford the choice, I have only bought free range (I had probably bought organic twice as its so expensive) for welfare reasons but I notice that hock burns, the red marks on the knuckles and parsons nose caused by the bird wallowing in feces ridden litter, are as likely on free range as intensive. So have I being taken for a ride by the producers/supermarkets that are laughing at the likes of me for thinking I've been buying a bird that at least seen daylight regularly, when really its had as miserable an existence as the cheaper packaged birds and charging me a 4/5 quid mark up to boot? Or are these burns usual on well reared free range birds?

I think for ethical reasons the less meat we eat the more money we have to spend on well reared animals we can be confident have had a good life and for economical reasons the less meat we eat the more money we have to spend on well reared animals which taste better and the less meat I buy the less I have to worry about am I being taken for a ride by supermarkets (except for fairtrade but thats another discussion).
There is also the carbon footprint aspect of food production which falls on both the ethical and economic sides of the argument . Meat has a massive carbon footprint - fruit/vegetables/grains don't. Meat is becoming so expensive to produce that we are probably going back to the days where it was a treat for Sundays and special occasions - maybe we'll be all better off for it including the animals

noby

Free range chickens can be held up to (something like) 400 per acre, and still qualify. They're not exactly going to be roaming the pastures at that rate. Of course some producers have much lower numbers per acre.

MoominPapa wrote: »

Meat has a massive carbon footprint - fruit/vegetables/grains don't.

Wow, what a broad, baseless, statement.

MoominPapa

noby wrote: »

Wow, what a broad, baseless, statement.

How so? I mean its hardly controversial

noby

My local butcher sources his pork locally, and they are reared, slaughtered,butchered and eaten within a 20 mile radius.
The kiwis and bananas in the supermarket, on the other hand...

I didn't say it was controversial, just so broad.

MoominPapa

noby wrote: »

My local butcher sources his pork locally, and they are reared, slaughtered,butchered and eaten within a 20 mile radius.
The kiwis and bananas in the supermarket, on the other hand...

Transportation is only one aspect of carbon footprints, a pig reared next door to you will have a much greater footprint than the same weight of bananas shipped from the west indies. Heating, feeding, medication, manpower all contribute as well. Also fruit and veg are grown in this country...

olaola

I don't really consider many things when I'm buying chicken (as opposed to meat) as labelling in this country is so misleading.

It is nigh to impossible to find out if the chicken is really produced in Ireland.
They only alternative is buying a chicken at an inflated price from a guaranteed source.

noby

MoominPapa: Fair enough. I don't know enough about it, it just seemed like a catch-all statement to me.

olaola: But the fact is it isn't an inflated price. To keep a free-range chicken, feed it, keep it alive for more than 39 days etc. ect. all cost money.

People don't want to spend the extra money. There was a report in the paper recently on how the Irish buy battery eggs at a rate way above the EU average. Supply of battery eggs could barely keep up with demand here in the run up to Christmas.
People, in general, aren't interested in spending a little extra for a good quality egg, not to mind a chicken.

LoneGunM@n

To be honest, since myself and the wife bought our first house we kinda flitted between being noble [only buying free-range] to minding the pennies [buying the intensively farmed]!!

However, based on last night's programme, we are truly converted and will never buy an intensively farmed chicken again ... It might sound stupid, but we weren't fully aware of the "life" the intensively farmed chickens are inflicted with.

Looking forward to seeing the concluding part tonight and Jamie Oliver's contribution on Friday night.

mike65

Was a notable was the price premium - the free-range bird retails for just 2 quid more, and you had one woman (part of the estate group) saying she coud'nt afford it cos she's a single mum. I bet she could swap 2 pounds a week from crisps, chocolates, etc if she only thought about it.

Mike.

prendy

I guess for most people the choice you make is based on your circumstance.
when i was in college the cheapest meat was always the best, now however with a few € to spend i am more interested in the quality of what im eating.
the programme was good but while i dont condone animal cruelty that is their purpose.
if that guy in the programme got local kids to work 20+ hrs a day for 20p making runners and shoes would people still buy them?????

sweetie

mike65 wrote: »

Was a notable was the price premium - the free-range bird retails for just 2 quid more, and you had one woman (part of the estate group) saying she coud'nt afford it cos she's a single mum. I bet she could swap 2 pounds a week from crisps, chocolates, etc if she only thought about it.

Mike.

definitely seemed she was getting enough crisps anyway. It was funny the way they didn't realise you could eat the meat from the bottom of the bird and/or use the carcass for stock and leftovers for rissotto.

Do craft butchers automatically sell free range chicken breasts or should I ask as I'm not going back either.

noby

Not 'automatically'. Just ask, that's what your friendly butcher is there for.

The Hill Billy

While still guilty of picking up a plastic tray of chicken fillets more than I should, I do try to buy whole free-range birds & butcher them myself for whatever I'm cooking. For example, breasts & thighs for a curry, legs for HB Jr I as a treat, carcass for stock.

If I'm under time pressure to do the shopping, cook & feed the family I will revert to the aforementioned fillets, but I do try to ensure that they're free-range at least.

The only eggs I EVER buy are from a lady down the road. They are free range organic (duck & hen) & Sweet Jebus they are the most wonderful thing to have boiled for breakfast on a Saturday morning! I never fully realised the difference in taste between battery - or even shop-bought free range eggs - & the real thing until I tried these.

i71jskz5xu42pb

noby wrote: »

MoominPapa: Fair enough. I don't know enough about it, it just seemed like a catch-all statement to me.

MoominPapa is spot on - meat & dairy have a huge environmental impact - carbon emissions, methane (cow farts), fertiliser, etc.

Short summaries here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/jul/19/climatechange.climatechange
http://environment.independent.co.uk/green_living/article3226321.ece

I'm not planning on turning vegetarian any day, but I'd make me think twice about how much meat is in my diet.

Minder

noby wrote: »

olaola: But the fact is it isn't an inflated price. To keep a free-range chicken, feed it, keep it alive for more than 39 days etc. ect. all cost money.

Yet the supermarkets have the largest margin in the supply chain that puts that bird on the dinner table. Tesco don't make billion pound profits through volume sales, rather through having the largest slice of the profit from the retail price. 40%?

catch--22

LoneGunM@n wrote: »

It might sound stupid, but we weren't fully aware of the "life" the intensively farmed chickens are inflicted with.

I think that's the general problem....it was for me anyway! But I'll definitely be a more conscious shopper from now on!

calsatron

Just to touch on the fruit and veg/meat thing again. Fruit and Veg can also have an extremely large carbon footprint due to the distance tropical/out of season fruits and veg travel to get to us.

Its a bit of a minefield mind you as a recent study showed that its actually more environmentally friendly to eat imported spanish tomatoes than it is to eat UK tomatoes that are grown in glass houses.

WindSock

mike65 wrote: »

Was a notable was the price premium - the free-range bird retails for just 2 quid more, and you had one woman (part of the estate group) saying she coud'nt afford it cos she's a single mum. I bet she could swap 2 pounds a week from crisps, chocolates, etc if she only thought about it.

Mike.

I was thinking the same. How much does fatty spend on pizza and fast food I wonder, and she says 2 pounds is a huge difference.

mike65

Well its over and the last part was the most interesting, Axminster has a fair few tossers it must be said. "fatty" did not change her views and was spotted by Hugh FW buying bargin chickens as he was inside filming at Tesco.

Mike.

lostexpectation

39 day old chickens ??? 39 days what size of chicken does that get you?

is that for pieces of chicken or a whole chicken? I coulnd't imagine a chicken getting the big in 39 days, how long did yerman keep his chickens not much longer.

what is the normal life span of a chicken, where does it become fully grown.

noby

It gets you your average size chicken, if you pump it full of stuff that makes it grow big fast.

I'm not sure what age a good free range bird is slaughtered at, but because they're a little older, and were running around they are a little more muscular which gives a slightly more game-y taste.

I know from personal experience that hens will happily lay at 4 or 5 years old, but because their egg production peaks after the second year laying, most commercial hens don't get to that age.

noby

Minder wrote: »

Yet the supermarkets have the largest margin in the supply chain that puts that bird on the dinner table. Tesco don't make billion pound profits through volume sales, rather through having the largest slice of the profit from the retail price. 40%?

I'm aware of Tesco and their profits. Tesco, and their ilk, screw every supplier to the wall. My point is the extra cost of a good free range chicken isn't an inflated cost, it's a real cost for the farmer.

Hagar

The chickens, more correctly hens, aren't getting such a bad deal compared to the cocks who are all killed off at birth.

MoominPapa

Hagar wrote: »

The chickens, more correctly hens, aren't getting such a bad deal compared to the cocks who are all killed off at birth.

I think its a case of the living envying the dead

catch--22

lostexpectation wrote: »

39 day old chickens ??? 39 days what size of chicken does that get you?

is that for pieces of chicken or a whole chicken? I coulnd't imagine a chicken getting the big in 39 days, how long did yerman keep his chickens not much longer.

what is the normal life span of a chicken, where does it become fully grown.

The chickens are kept awake for 23.5 hours a day. When chickens are awake they eat. And eat. By the time 39 days comes they can hardly support their own body weight!

mike65

lostexpectation, sounds like you should have been watching (you may catch repeats on More4 if you have it, at some point).

Mike.

BurnsCarpenter

prendy wrote: »

I guess for most people the choice you make is based on your circumstance.
when i was in college the cheapest meat was always the best, now however with a few € to spend i am more interested in the quality of what im eating.
the programme was good but while i dont condone animal cruelty that is their purpose.if that guy in the programme got local kids to work 20+ hrs a day for 20p making runners and shoes would people still buy them?????

You mean God put them there for us to eat?

The problem seems to be that people think that the ultra cheap chicken is the norm.
I'd imagine the ratio of chicken cost to average wage is quite different to what it was fifty years ago.

mike65

Quite. Chicken used to be a) a luxury and b) tasty. Now its neither.

Mike.

Minder

noby wrote: »

I'm aware of Tesco and their profits. Tesco, and their ilk, screw every supplier to the wall. My point is the extra cost of a good free range chicken isn't an inflated cost, it's a real cost for the farmer.

Battery chicken 39 days old. Free range 56 days old. Both chickens will eat roughly the same amout of food for the weight yield. The free range slightly more as some of the food energy is used up by the animal. That and the additional lighting and heating for 17 days does not equate to the price difference between the two types of bird. It can't - do the math. The price increase should be of the order of 40%. Instead the supermarkets charge 100 to 200% more for a similar weight of free range bird.

mike65

Sounds like they should be trying to sell more of them.

Mike.

noby

Minder wrote: »

Battery chicken 39 days old. Free range 56 days old. Both chickens will eat roughly the same amout of food for the weight yield. The free range slightly more as some of the food energy is used up by the animal. That and the additional lighting and heating for 17 days does not equate to the price difference between the two types of bird. It can't - do the math. The price increase should be of the order of 40%. Instead the supermarkets charge 100 to 200% more for a similar weight of free range bird.

I don't want to get into a discussion on supermarket pricing. All I'm saying is that free range hens cost more to produce. The real issue here is that Tesco shouldn't be able to sell a chicken for a couple of euro. The fact that they do makes the free range chicken look a lot more expensive.

I spoke in the summer to a free range organic chicken and egg producer. He was telling me that in 1982 an egg cost 12p! I'm not sure what the equivelant in today's money is, but he reckons he should be selling for €1 an egg to make it really viable, but at that price no-on would buy his eggs.

Poppy78

I raised chickens a couple of years ago. They were laying eggs and running around the back garden. They were fun to keep and were nearly pets, mr Fox got them in the end. Ever since then I buy free range and generally find it tastier than standard chicken. The thing is, I hate sanctimonius pricks telling me what decisions I should make in life. That programme was so unbalanced and sensationalist that it made me angry even though I probably somewhat agree with the ethos. Although free range is not the great ethical saviour it was portrayed to be in this show, it probably is a start.

I refuse to believe that people do not know how cheap meat gets to be so cheap. (For one thing high moral grounders are always going on about it.) They know in the same way that they know Iraq is a dangerous place to live and that some number of homeless people slept out on the street in freezing temperatures last night. This information is somewhere in the back of our minds and people choose what their priorities are and act acordingly.

So the poor chickens are the cause du jour and the topic of conversation around the water cooler for a week. Do you honestly believe that the most of the people suddenly swearing off battery chicken, when they see a tasty chicken dish on their favourite restaurants menu will question its origins. Or the next time you are in a hurry on your lunch break and all the deli counter has left are a few slices chicken will you forego your lunch? Only if you are a very commited and principaled person.

Besides when was the last time you saw a pig out foraging in bushes and why are the cows so frighteningly large. I wonder do they feel left out of the moralistic sideshow with their poultry brethren getting all the media attention?

BaZmO*

noby wrote: »

I don't want to get into a discussion on supermarket pricing. All I'm saying is that free range hens cost more to produce. The real issue here is that Tesco shouldn't be able to sell a chicken for a couple of euro. The fact that they do makes the free range chicken look a lot more expensive.

Exactly. Was watching Jamie Oliver on breakfast TV this morning and he made a very good point with regards to all meat products. He said that you shouldn't be penny pinching when it comes to meat. It's the like of bog roll, cleaning products, clothes, etc. etc. that you should be trying to save money on.

Now that is not to say that you should be paying ridiculous amounts for meat but you should be aware of the cost involved in the process of getting quality to your plate. £5 for two whole chickens is just wrong by anybody's standards!

mike65

If "2 for a fiver" chickens was a car everyone would question its safety in a crash.

Mike.

catch--22

Poppy78 wrote: »

So the poor chickens are the cause du jour and the topic of conversation around the water cooler for a week. Do you honestly believe that the most of the people suddenly swearing off battery chicken, when they see a tasty chicken dish on their favourite restaurants menu will question its origins. Or the next time you are in a hurry on your lunch break and all the deli counter has left are a few slices chicken will you forego your lunch? Only if you are a very commited and principaled person.

But what if someone does? I really don't think this programme was preaching at people they way you seem to think.

I knew chickens had a crap life before I watched it, but I'd never actually seen it before. I might not always be able to source free-range chicken but I will buy it when I can.....because of that show. In that way the show worked ..... for me anyway!

And as BaZmO* mentioned above, never pinch pennies when it comes to meat!

MoominPapa

Hey Poppy
I take your point but I think this program and tonights Jamie Olivers show will make it less easy for people to say "I know its bad but I don't know how bad" I've been buying free range whole chicken exclusively for years, but would have bought a chicken sandwich or a chicken curry from the takeaway - not now, never again.
And it may be chickens de jour but it can, and should, be pigs manana. You've gotta start somewhere

rockbeer

Minder wrote: »

Battery chicken 39 days old. Free range 56 days old. Both chickens will eat roughly the same amout of food for the weight yield. The free range slightly more as some of the food energy is used up by the animal. That and the additional lighting and heating for 17 days does not equate to the price difference between the two types of bird. It can't - do the math. The price increase should be of the order of 40%. Instead the supermarkets charge 100 to 200% more for a similar weight of free range bird.

You fail to take into account the extra space needed for free range birds. Regular chickens are raised 17 to the square metre, free range probably less than half that number, which immediately doubles their effective base price.

I'm not saying supermarkets aren't cashing in on the perceived luxury factor of free range, the same way fair trade stuff is usually overpriced (in this country at least - not so in the rest of Europe) for similar reasons. However, there are undeniably significantly higher production costs to free range animals.

aidan24326

Jamie Oliver had a program on C4 tonight, going through the whole process of how eggs and chicken meat get to your table, and the way that eggs and chicken are now mass-produced in a factory type environemnt. I have to say it wasn't pretty, and it's being driven by the consumer, you and I, wanting cheaper prices, more for less. The farmers apparently make only a few pence on each chicken, so for them it's all about huge numbers and fast turnaround times. The supermarkets don't give a sh1t once they get large volumes at low prices. But ultimately it's Joe and Josephine Consumer who are driving it.

BaZmO*

aidan24326 wrote: »

Jamie Oliver had a program on C4 tonight, going through the whole process of how eggs and chicken meat get to your table, and the way that eggs and chicken are now mass-produced in a factory type environemnt. I have to say it wasn't pretty, and it's being driven by the consumer, you and I, wanting cheaper prices, more for less. The farmers apparently make only a few pence on each chicken, so for them it's all about huge numbers and fast turnaround times. The supermarkets don't give a sh1t once they get large volumes at low prices. But ultimately it's Joe and Josephine Consumer who are driving it.

You need to read between the lines of that show. It's not the consumer that's "driving" these low prices per se. Uneducated consumers (generally) will always go for the cheapest product but with some education and knowledge, which is conveniently not provided by the supermarkets, people will make better choices.

But having said that, I'm actually really surprised that people didn't know already that chickens are raised in these types of conditions.

dinkydee

Do we have a similar rspca/ farm freedom chicken for sale here or just Value/ Free Range???

Minder

Interesting info from the CH4 website re chicken rearing...

Red Tractor

This is the standard chicken. Around 90% of all British chickens - about 774 million birds each year - are produced according to Red Tractor's Assured Chicken Production (ACP) guidelines.

Typically, birds live indoors in windowless sheds for 40 days until they reach a slaughter weight of 2.2 kilos. Ventilation, temperature, feed, water and lighting are carefully controlled.
Large sheds house up to 50,000 birds, although 25,000 is more common. The rules allow 38 kilos of chicken per square metre - that’s about 18 birds when near slaughter weight. The equivalent in area to an A4 piece of paper for each chicken.

Both sides of the fence

Critics consider the ACP system to be inhumane. Birds can develop painful leg and hip injuries because of their restricted movement and rapid weight gain. Chickens typically have no perches or benches, and the sheds are dimly lit to discourage activity. "They should switch to slowing growing breeds and allow more space and enrichment," says Joyce D’Silva, campaigner for animal welfare group, Compassion in World Farming.
Defenders argue that ACP is a highly efficient and well-regulated system for producing affordable chicken. “The Red Tractor logo really does count for high standards, and Britain produces the safest poultry meat in the EU,” says Peter Bradnock, chief executive for The British Poultry Council.
ACP rules are both comprehensive and revised every year following scientific advice, says Bradnock. In contrast, countries such as Brazil and Thailand, which in 2007 exported 120,000 tonnes of chicken meat to the UK, have no animal welfare legislation.

Typical price per chicken (1.6 kilos): £2.20

Freedom Food

This scheme was set-up by the RSPCA in 1994, and operates as a registered charity. 40 million birds were raised under this system in 2007.

This is a step-up from the ‘standard’ ACP chicken, allowing the birds 25% more space, brighter indoor light and a slower growth - around 50 days from hatching to slaughter. Sheds include straw bales and pecking objects to play with.

Freedom Food also runs assurance schemes for free-range and organic chickens, so you may find their logo on these birds too. Some chickens carry both the Red Tractor and Freedom Food logos.

Typical price per chicken (1.6 kilos): £3.80

Corn fed

Watch out for this one. ‘Corn fed’ as a marketing term has no legal definition under EU law. Generally it is considered to mean that the bird has been fed a diet of at least 50% corn during the final fattening phase of its life. The corn gives the meat its characteristic yellow colour.

Typical price per chicken (corn fed Freedom Food 1.6 kilos): £5.10

Free Range

Free range chickens have access to the outdoors for at least half their lifetime during daylight hours. Age at slaughter is 56 days. The outdoor area must be ‘mainly covered by vegetation’. Stocking densities must not exceed 27.5 kilos per square metre – around 12 birds.
You may also see labels for ‘traditional free range’, which allows more access outdoors, lower stocking density and a minimum age at slaughter of 81 days. Or ‘free-range – total freedom’, which allows unrestricted day time open-air access.

Be aware, though, that there is no limit on the size of free-range flocks, and they typically number several thousand birds.

Typical price per chicken (1.6 kilos): £5.90

Freedom Food or Free Range - what's the difference? Our guide gives you the facts behind the labels

Around 30% of organic chickens in our shops are certified by the Soil Association, which insists on higher standards of welfare than other organic bodies which follow EU rules. For example, their flocks are ideally 500 birds, with a maximum of 2,000. EU rules allow up to 4,800.

“Organic birds raised to Soil Association standards are genuinely ‘free-range’,” says Robin Maynard of the Soil Association. “With some other systems, the flocks are so large, several thousand birds strong, that many birds never venture out of doors.”

Under Soil Association rules, up to 1,000 birds can live in each shed, with no more than 10 chickens per square metre. Feed is free from GM and has been produced without the use of pesticides. Age at slaughter is a minimum of 81 days – twice the length of a ‘standard’ chicken.

Typical price per chicken – (Soil Association, 1.6 kilos): £8