Building to chinups and pull ups

Supercell

Every time I try one or the other its leaves aches in places that shouldn't be aching.

I've tried jumping up and trying a slow decent but its not getting me close to goal.
I am pretty overweight (about 3 stone) and that maybe why I can't do 50 of them or so...i should be able to do a few though

I'm progressing nicely with benching but with the pull up and chin up I don't think there is any progress at all, i always feel sore in places that benching and other exercises that don't leave me sore at all - I'm not hitting the right muscles

I need i think to focus on what ever muscles are involved in pull ups and chin ups.

I have a good bench and dumbbell set so I have no excuse..just no efficient exercises yet it seems!

celt2005

You need to work on your back if you want to chin.

Supercell

celt2005 wrote: »

You need to work on your back if you want to chin.

Thanks, what exercises would you recommend specifically?

Edwardius

Keep with the descents or "negatives", that'll be slow progress but you'll get there and you're going through the full range of motion for the exercise. You can also tie some weights to a rope, throw it over a bar and strap the other end to your waist, this should be good for assisted pullups. Make sure the bar can take the weight of you and the weight you throw over it though. The main thing is to have patience but try as hard as you can.

mack1

Longfield wrote: »

Thanks, what exercises would you recommend specifically?

Lat pulldown machine is good: http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/CBFrontPulldown.html

Also, try doing assisted chins to start off:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/AsChinup.html

Mickk

http://www.irish-lifting.com/product_info_equipment.php?cPath=1_8&products_id=274
I thought this was cool when I saw it first. Makes it easy to build up to them if you already have a power rack/tower and even if you can already do them it is great for repping out a few extra when you are tired.

sharkDawg

Have someone lift your legs as you pull up, they can provide as much or as little help as needed

arybvtcw0eolkf

Unless your already light and fit I've always thought that chin-ups should be for the more advanced lifter simply because for the heavier lads their just too stressful.

And if your attempts to do a few are causing you injury give them up until your strong enough to start with at least four or five unassisted.

If you really want to, have someone support your legs. You bend your leg at the knee and your partner takes the strain by supporting your shins/ankles.

If you don't have a training partner or don't want to ask you can pull a chair or bench over and 'tip-toe' off it in the same manner.

They are a very difficult exercise for the heavier lads, and to be honest I'm not sold on their worth.

BossArky

Longfield wrote: »

i always feel sore in places that benching and other exercises that don't leave me sore at all - I'm not hitting the right muscles

This is because different muscles are used for benching vs pull ups. I presume you know this but it comes across as if you don't from the quote above.

Do some of these to build up your back:

• one arm dumbell rows
• reverse flys
• barbell rows
• deadlifts
• barbell rows
• lat pulldown

... and maybe a few bicep curls to help with the pull ups.

Hanley

Training pulldowns/rows/whatever with a typical 3x10-15 rep range is utterly useless when it comes to trying to increase your pull ups.

Since you can't do one pull up, you can consider even getting one as requiring a serious strength increase, not "endurance" or "size" or whatever, just strength.

To that end, would you train deadlifts with sets of 10-15 and expect your max to take a big jump quickly? I know I wouldn't...

Hit the basics hard. There's nothing wrong with low rep dumbbell or barbell rows, sets of 6 on pulldowns... just try and get stronger on the movements that build your lats, the chinning strength will come in time.

My deadlift, bench, rows, pulldowns and pretty much every other indicator of back strength have never been greater, I'm a hell of a lot thicker too. BUT my chin strength is down. That alone would tell me they're not the last word in back training. I do think they're helpful (I'm trying to get them back up to where they were now) but I don't think that they're absolutely neccessary.

spiral

im 6 ft and about 93-95 kg at the minute . I can do 7-10 chins depending on the day and 3-5 kipping pullups. The main way I improved was just by pautting a bar in my batroom doorway and doing a few every time I passed the door. It builds up pretty quick . Look up grease the groove. If you really cant do even one negatives are good but I would also consider getting the assisted pullup package from Iron woody or somewhere similiar

http://www.ironwoodyfitness.com/fitness-bands-stretch-bands-purchase.php

I got the first one and found it a great help in trying to just squeeze out a few sets of 10 just to get the feel and to help my piullups which I find way harder than chins.

Hope that helps.

Running Bing

Longfield wrote: »

Every time I try one or the other its leaves aches in places that shouldn't be aching.

I've tried jumping up and trying a slow decent but its not getting me close to goal.
I am pretty overweight (about 3 stone) and that maybe why I can't do 50 of them or so...i should be able to do a few though

I'm progressing nicely with benching but with the pull up and chin up I don't think there is any progress at all, i always feel sore in places that benching and other exercises that don't leave me sore at all - I'm not hitting the right muscles

I need i think to focus on what ever muscles are involved in pull ups and chin ups.

I have a good bench and dumbbell set so I have no excuse..just no efficient exercises yet it seems!

What makes you think that?


Where is aching?


Pull ups/chins work/use a lot of muscles at once. the ones aching might be the ones that your just not using on other excercises.

I do a lot of DL's, shoulder presses, bench presses and when I do pull ups the main places that ache is my lats.

davyjose

Hanley wrote: »

I do think they're helpful but I don't think that they're absolutely neccessary.

I would say they are. It depends on what your goals are, and I'm not for a moment going to attempt to tell you you're wrong. I'm sure in terms of power lifting, they are not necessary.
But in terms of overall strength, being able to pull your own bodyweight would have been a very important factor in measuring a persons strength. No?

arybvtcw0eolkf

davyjose wrote: »

I would say they are. It depends on what your goals are, and I'm not for a moment going to attempt to tell you you're wrong. I'm sure in terms of power lifting, they are not necessary.
But in terms of overall strength, being able to pull your own bodyweight would have been a very important factor in measuring a persons strength. No?

Same thing?.

Hanley

Mairt wrote: »

Same thing?.

You'd think so... We all have our own defintions tho.

Olympic weightlifting certainly doesn't require it. I'm not sure if any of the professional strongman comps do either.


Davyjose, Longfield didn't state the reason he's doing chins. If it's for back development then it's probably not necessary. If it's for increasing his squat, bench or deadlift, it's not necessary. If it's to increase his chin/pull up strength well then that should be self evident.

I honestly don't think they're a good measure of "strength" because they're not easily comparable. A strong wiry 75kg guy SHOULD be able to do many more with his own bodyweight than a 125kg heavily muscled powerlifter. Who's stronger*?

*since it seems to be about "overall" strength, does this make the 75kg guy stronger overall too then?

davyjose

Mairt wrote: »

Same thing?.

Not really -- no gymnast worth his salt would struggle to do pull-up's. Those guys are pretty strong. Again, if you're a power-lifter would be able to deadlift crazy amounts, but not be able to many pull-up's. Now clearly the powerlifter is actually stronger, but relative to his own bodyweight, the gymnast is (at that particular movement).

That doesn't matter when you want to lift heavy things, but it does in many other exercises. That's why I was saying that unless the OP wants to train for very specific moves then being able to do pull-ups would be a very good indicator of strength, particulary given his weight

Hanley

davyjose wrote: »

Not really -- no gymnast worth his salt would struggle to do pull-up's. Those guys are pretty strong. Again, if you're a power-lifter would be able to deadlift crazy amounts, but not be able to many pull-up's. Now clearly the powerlifter is actually stronger, but relative to his own bodyweight, the gymnast is (at that particular movement).

That doesn't matter when you want to lift heavy things, but it does in many other exercises. That's why I was saying that unless the OP wants to train for very specific moves then being able to do pull-ups would be a very good indicator of strength, particulary given his weight

When someone says strong, I think of picking things up.

You assume powerlifters can't chin their own weight...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8874JYBIODQ

And before anyone says it, yes his chin wasn't quite over the bar, but he's a 250lb guy doing them ffs!!

davyjose

Hanley wrote: »

You assume powerlifters can't chin their own weight...

QUOTE]

Ah no .... I just mean that a lot of powerlifters would be ridiculously strong at lifts, but comparatively might not be as good as you'd think at other exercises.
I know in American Football they have a strength factor for players whereby they measure strength versus a players weight.

Smyth

you can do 50 chinups or 50 pullups?

do you mean 5. 50 is alot.

Colm_OReilly

Can we define strength as the productive application of force? So pretty much what Hanley says. How heavy can you lift.

Rip's take on chins

I just mean that a lot of powerlifters would be ridiculously strong at lifts, but comparatively might not be as good as you'd think at other exercises

Well this would happen with any specialist sportsperson? 10,000m runners get good at that distance, and comparably slower at other distances, by way of example.

The ironwoddy bands are a great tool, must pick some up.

As an anecdote, one of our guys Ruairi started with us back in September able to do just about 1 pull up (if he started with a slight bend). Through working controlled negatives, as well as his CF wods, he's built up his muscles so that today, he did 45 proper pull ups as part of his workout, interspersed with 35Kg Overhead Squats. He did this workout in a respectable time too.

justdoit

I have googled, and read up on it, but cannot find a video link/ demonstration, so can't quite visualise what a kipping pull up is. Anyone got a link or a very clear definition?

Ta

Colm_OReilly

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_Kipping1-Concept.wmv

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/eva-on-kipping.wmv

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_KippingPullupStep1.wmv
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_KippingPullupStep2.wmv
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_KippingPullupStep3.wmv
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_KippingPullupStep4.wmv

samsamson

Get a resistance band and use it to support yourself on the bar.

http://home.eol.ca/~philla/bodyessence/images/bandchinups.jpg

BossArky

Are kipping chins better than normal ones? Or are they just an easier version for beginners due to the momentum you build up from swinging?

rubadub

Pulls & chins are hard at first for most for 2 reasons, you are not strong, and can be overwieght.

Negatives helped me hugely, I could not do a single pullup for chin up for a good while. I had a little box I stood on, in the upper most position, and would do 12 negative reps nice and slow. Then I was able to do 1 or 2 chins/pulls, so did my 2 and then straight onto the box for another 10 negatives.

I can now do ~16 chins and ~13 pullups. I do wieghted ones too, if I put on the weight to bring me back to my beginning weight, I can do around 6-8.

Colm_OReilly

BossArky wrote: »

Are kipping chins better than normal ones? Or are they just an easier version for beginners due to the momentum you build up from swinging?

That's the never ending debate really.

Kipping pull ups are more powerful in that you move through a large range of motion and do so quicker than strict pull ups. More powerful = greater favourable results.

Like all powerful movements, they're done in a wave of contraction from core to extremity. In that first video I posted Glassman makes an analogy to something which made sense but I'm drawing a complete blank now

As to being easier, that I'm not so sure about. I can't kip at all, I can frog kick when tired but as far as a graceful hip motion, no way hose.

Much in the same way there's benefits from doing the shoulder press, push press and push jerk, one should do strict, weighted and kipping pull ups (ala this workout - http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_3TypesPullupWOD.wmv

Exar Khun

God bless crossfit.

celestial

Interesting discussion.

Ok so in my case I am 5'9", weigh 82.5kg/13 stone, 34 inch waist, good bit of muscle mass. Have been training bench press for about a year or so, but regularly for about 6-7 months. I can bench about 70kg barbell, or 40kg total with dumbbells. This will go up again very soon as I get back into training. However I can't even do one pull-up! Definitely not after my bench workout - might struggle to do one at the start of my workout when I am fresher.

This would suggest two things:

1) a strength imbalance in my back. I regularly do the lat pull down and dbell rows though. I would do lat pull downs in almost every workout, but the dbell row features less.

2) In spite of the poor pull up performance, I am not *not strong, given that I can bench the amount above, which seems like a reasonable amount.

Am I right on both counts?

Hanley

how many reps are you doing with 70kg?

How many reps are you doing on the pulldowns and rows?

celestial

Hanley wrote: »

how many reps are you doing with 70kg?

How many reps are you doing on the pulldowns and rows?

It's been over a month since I was in gym due to flu and Christmas but I would regularly do approx 4 sets x 8 reps with two 20kg dumbbells (2 sets incline and 2 sets decline), followed by 2 x 8 on a lower weight (approx 16 or 18kg).

Barbell bench would be approx 60-70kg, 3 sets x 8 reps.

Lat pull down: Usually 3 sets x 8-10 reps with a 30-40kg weight. Think I've done 50kg before.

Dumbbell rows would be similar to dumbbell bench, volume might be less, especially as I would do them after benching.

Vegeta

My back is also weak as feck and i struggle with chin/pull ups

I have a simialr shape and level of strength to you celestial and find them difficult

I have improved mine though over the last 2 months by just doing them regularly. When I started I could do about 3 sets of 2 reps (I have lost a stone in that time so maybe small strength gain and bit of weight loss = more chin/pull ups). Now I am doing a set of 5, a set of 4 and a set of 4. Hopefully in another 8-12 weeks I will be able to do more.

I got a set of rings for xmas and when i tried to do dips on them I couldn't manage one proper rep. The other night I did 3 sets of 3 and was overjoyed.

Patto

I have been doing chins and lat pull downs with a narrow "chining" grip. I can do about 6 chins at 97Kg and I can lat pull down sets of 95Kg for 4x8.

I changed over to pull ups last week. I can't do even 1 pull up. I find the pull down machine very awkward and I can only pull down sets of 65Kgs or something ridiculous like that. Using an assisted pull up machine is a bit easier but again my assistance is huge and it really beats me up. I had doms up the side of my neck afterwards:(

I suppose the biggest difference is you engage the rear delts much less with the pull up grip.

Do people find that their chins are always stronger than their pull ups? Is it possible for your pull up to be stronger?

Exar Khun

Vegeta wrote: »

I got a set of rings for xmas and when i tried to do dips on them I couldn't manage one proper rep. The other night I did 3 sets of 3 and was overjoyed.

Where do you hang the rings ?

Smyth

I'd be in the same category as celestial. Usually benching 65-70kg 3 sets of 8, 1 set of 5. or the same using 22-25 dumbells.

I'm 85kg and 6ft, i find pull ups much easier than chin ups.
pullups usually consist of 15-12-10
chinups are 10-8-5

Got a pullup bar a few months ago. everytime i pass it i usually do a set. I'd recommend one.

You can always get a 5kg dumbell and hold it between your legs. That makes things a hell of a lot harder.

Vegeta

Exar Khun wrote: »

Where do you hang the rings ?

In my shed off the I or H beam depending what you call it

rubadub

Exar Khun wrote: »

Where do you hang the rings ?

I have mine on a chinning bar. I also have had them in an attic hole. You can put a bit of wood spanning the attic hole, square/rectangle beam is best as it will not roll. I had a strange V shape of wood in my attic and could rest a barbell across it.

I have also used a crossbar at the local soccer pitch.

The other night I did 3 sets of 3 and was overjoyed.

You will improve fast. I could do 8-10 normal dips and only 1 dip on the rings on my first day. 2 days ago I did 13 dips on the rings, and only have them a few months. Works muscles I never knew I had! Have you tried the tricep pushups? killer on the abs as well as the tricep.

Do people find that their chins are always stronger than their pull ups?

I do

Is it possible for your pull up to be stronger?

I imagine if you only did pullups and no chins it would be possible, but not advisable.

Supercell

Good to see I'm not the only one thats finding these tough!
I also find I'm closer to the chin up than pull up. Definatly have plenty to go on to improve the situation here.

celestial

celestial wrote: »

Interesting discussion.

Ok so in my case I am 5'9", weigh 82.5kg/13 stone, 34 inch waist, good bit of muscle mass. Have been training bench press for about a year or so, but regularly for about 6-7 months. I can bench about 70kg barbell, or 40kg total with dumbbells. This will go up again very soon as I get back into training. However I can't even do one pull-up! Definitely not after my bench workout - might struggle to do one at the start of my workout when I am fresher.

This would suggest two things:

1) a strength imbalance in my back. I regularly do the lat pull down and dbell rows though. I would do lat pull downs in almost every workout, but the dbell row features less.

2) In spite of the poor pull up performance, I am not *not strong, given that I can bench the amount above, which seems like a reasonable amount.

Am I right on both counts?

What are your comments on my two points above? Hanley, Colm?

Hanley

celestial wrote: »

It's been over a month since I was in gym due to flu and Christmas but I would regularly do approx 4 sets x 8 reps with two 20kg dumbbells (2 sets incline and 2 sets decline), followed by 2 x 8 on a lower weight (approx 16 or 18kg).

Barbell bench would be approx 60-70kg, 3 sets x 8 reps.

Lat pull down: Usually 3 sets x 8-10 reps with a 30-40kg weight. Think I've done 50kg before.

Dumbbell rows would be similar to dumbbell bench, volume might be less, especially as I would do them after benching.

Hell there's your problem!! You weight 82.5kg I think you said?

Lat Pulldowns are generally much easier than pull ups/chins, so you're only using half your bodyweight on a movement that's easier than the one you're trying to perform!

I don't think pulldowns have any real correlation to pullup strength other than the fact they get your back strong (to an extent). It's probably worth pushing your pulldowns and row work to get your general back strength up. At least to the point you can do a few chins, and just start trainnig them from there.

That'd be my suggestion, Colm might have something different.

Colm_OReilly

Surely a better indication of balance between antagonistic actions would be handstand push ups to pull ups? Going purely on the action involved?

I find a comparison of benching to pull ups hard to make, and difficult to draw conclusions from. There is a CF workout called Lynne that uses BW benching and pull ups, and a cursory look here suggests that CFers have good pull up ability in comparison to their benching ability.

However, the pull ups are done after max rep bench press, so fatigue plays a part. CF places a strong emphasis on the pull up and relatively little on the bench, favouring the shoulder press instead.

Now, as far as imbalances goes, here's another few things to consider. What's your squat/deadlift/press/bench/power clean ratio? According to this chart I'm an intermediate in most things.

Weight: 165lbs (74Kg)
Press: 148lbs (67.5Kg)
Squat: 292lbs (132.5Kg)
Bench: no idea, I don't bench
Dead: 319lbs (145kg)
Power Clean: 154lbs (70Kg) - approx, I've done 65kg for 2, failed on the third.

So I'm a novice with the power clean, so it would make sense for me to work on this (without neglecting the other areas of course)

Another test of imbalance is to see what your back squat/front squat/overhead squats are. If your OHS is lagging behind and not gaining on the FS/BS, then you're ability to transfer power from your core to extremity is limited.

Colm

rubadub

celestial wrote: »

However I can't even do one pull-up!

I think the real problem with pullups is that there is no starting point, i.e. no lighter weight to start with.

e.g. (all numbers are just random) if you are doing say military press, you start at say 15kg, and build up slowly and say after a few months you can do a single press of 30kg, or 8 reps of 25kg. At a similar strength level you might be able to do say 1 pullup. Problem is you have never been able to do one so have not involved all the muscles required to do them. It would be like starting out trying to do the single rep military press of 30kg, and getting nowhere. You have to build up to them, and negatives are great for that, my reps shot up after doing them. I much prefer bodyweight exercises and find they need lots of practice & training as they seem to incorporate a lot of different muscles.

I was able to do 8-10 normal static dips, then got gymnastics rings and could only do 1 dip, whole different set of muscles in play. Now a few months on I can do 13dips, did 12 this morning straight out of bed with no food in me. Would have thought that impossible after the first day I tried them.

spiral

its not that hard do negatives or get a giant rubber band or both

celestial

rubadub wrote: »

I think the real problem with pullups is that there is no starting point, i.e. no lighter weight to start with.

e.g. (all numbers are just random) if you are doing say military press, you start at say 15kg, and build up slowly and say after a few months you can do a single press of 30kg, or 8 reps of 25kg. At a similar strength level you might be able to do say 1 pullup. Problem is you have never been able to do one so have not involved all the muscles required to do them. It would be like starting out trying to do the single rep military press of 30kg, and getting nowhere. You have to build up to them, and negatives are great for that, my reps shot up after doing them. I much prefer bodyweight exercises and find they need lots of practice & training as they seem to incorporate a lot of different muscles.

I was able to do 8-10 normal static dips, then got gymnastics rings and could only do 1 dip, whole different set of muscles in play. Now a few months on I can do 13dips, did 12 this morning straight out of bed with no food in me. Would have thought that impossible after the first day I tried them.

Aha...think you've hit the nail on the head there rubadub. Given that my bodyweight is the first and only 'weight' I can use, I am effectively trying to pull-up approx 85kg on my first attempt. So am starting at a much higher level to begin with on this exercise. Makes sense! Gonna work on negatives to build up.

Also, I want to make sure I'm hitting my upper, middle, and lower back - plan on doing lat pull downs, dbell rows and supermans to cover this - sound good? I know that some of those will hit more than one area of the back but would like each exercise to hit one major area of the back.

Patto

celestial wrote: »

What are your comments on my two points above? Hanley, Colm?

Celestial, how much can you shoulder press and how much can you one arm bent over row?

celestial

Patto wrote: »

Celestial, how much can you shoulder press and how much can you one arm bent over row?

Hey Patto, right now my shoulder press and bent over row are pretty much consistent with my bench and even my squat. I can shoulder press say 40kg (20kg x 2 dumbbells) for around 2-3 sets x 8 reps. Dumbbell row would be the same. I would start getting tired after the 2nd set with 20kg dumbbells though and would do drop sets with 16 or 18kg dumbbells.

Patto

Nothing wrong with your shoulders then. That's about the same as I can shoulder press. I can one arm bent over row 40Kg though.

My weakness in my bench press and any overhead stuff is my rotor cuff (shoulders). Looks like yours is your lats.

Keep working on the rows (bent over, seated etc), the chin negs, pull ups negs and the lat pull downs. The lats are large muscles, they generally respond quite quickly to training.

Hanley

Patto wrote: »

Nothing wrong with your shoulders then. That's about the same as I can shoulder press. I can one arm bent over row 40Kg though.

My weakness in my bench press and any overhead stuff is my rotor cuff (shoulders). Looks like yours is your lats.

Keep working on the rows (bent over, seated etc), the chin negs, pull ups negs and the lat pull downs. The lats are large muscles, they generally respond quite quickly to training.

Just curious as to how you came to that conclusion?

rubadub

celestial wrote: »

I can shoulder press say 40kg (20kg x 2 dumbbells) for around 2-3 sets x 8

I am doing about 10/9/8 reps 3 sets, standing military press at 47kg, and can do around 13 pullups on a good day. Back when I was pressing ~40kg for 2-3sets I reckon I was doing 8 pullups. Does sound like practice will have you up in no time.

its not that hard do negatives or get a giant rubber band or both

I have used a chair. A mountain bike inner tube can act as the big rubber band.

Patto

Hanley wrote: »

Just curious as to how you came to that conclusion?

My shoulders:
I injured my left rotor cuff about three or four years ago. At the time my physio said it was weak and that I would need to build up the strength in my shoulders to prevent the same injury happening again.

Your rotor cuff and a few other small muscles are used to support your shoulders when your arms are over your head. For this reason your shoulder is quite weak in an overhead position. This is also why your shoulders tire so quickly as these small supporting muscles fail quite quickly. This can also be a weak point in your bench press. For me it certainly is.

I have also found recently that my shoulder press gains are very closely match by my bench press gains.

celestial's Lats:
Well celestial can shoulder press pretty much the same as I can and he is lighter and 7 inches smaller than I am, so I would say his shoulders are pretty good. However my rows are a lot stronger. The lats are the primary muscle involved in rows, I wouldn't have thought any of the smaller muscles could account for such a difference.

Racing Flat

My weakness in my bench press and any overhead stuff is my rotor cuff (shoulders). Looks like yours is your lats


This is too simplistic an assumption.
Rotator cuff consists of 4 muscles involved in movements of the shoulder but also providing stability around the shoulder joint, ie hodling the ball centrally within the socket so that it doesn't translate/sublux/dislocate. These muscles can be active in performing this function throughout the range and not just overhead. Your arms may feel weak overhead simply because the muscles are in their outer range in this position - muscles tend to be stronger in their mid-inner range.

Becaue we use movements when we exercise we use muscle groups as opposed to individual muscles - if someone is doing 'biceps curls' they are doing elbow flexion so they are using their elbow flexor muscles - there are at least 5 of these - so if someone was weak at 'biceps curls' you couldn't assume it was because of weak biceps, rather it's a weak elbow flexor/flexors but you couldn't say which one/ones without doing EMG or other analysis.

Also, if someone is good or poor at doing an exercise you can't say it's because 'they've weak lats and I've weak rotator cuff', because they could be substituting - using other muscles, hence form is so important.

celestial

In my case I don't think it is poor lat strength to be honest - more just that I haven't given pull-ups the same attention as say benching, and my first ever 'rep' is gonna be 85kg (my own bodyweight). BIt like push-ups - when I started I could barely do 10 but now I can knock out 30+ cold no probs.