is this legal ??

hel_hev

bloke i know in work , wanted some week for a holiday .. i think he couldnt afford the flights at any other week apart from one particular week ... in work , they said he couldnt have it ... but i think at this stage he had already booked his flights ....
so he went anyway and rang in sick for the whole week.
he then came back to work with a doctors note ....
they have gave out to him because basically they know he is lying about being sick ... as far as telling him they wanted to sack him but legally cant because of the doctors note ...
they did however give him a warning .. that he is on probation even though hes working there like 5 years ...
they said if he makes even little mistakes he will get sacked ..
is that legal ???
i know the guy is lying & they can see that , but imagine if it was say some mad unfortunate concidence and he was telling the truth (which i doubt)
but can they put him on probation ... my brother is a manager where he works and has some hr experence ... hes pretty sure this is not legal
also the guy who was warned was told not to tell other people in work about that he was on this probation ? why would that be ? so that maybe other will not tell him its not legal ?
what does every one think ?

AckwelFoley

If they cannot prove that he was not ill and infact on holidays, and he has a doctors cert then no they cannot warn him for this.

jhegarty

Can't see any legal problem with it.... they know what he did , and called him on it....

As for not telling other people about the warning , I don't know of any reason why it helps him or them to spread it round....

Jackus

OK, imagine that You ask about holiday and Your manager refuse it. Then ater work you had accident (let's say broken nose) You went to the hospital, and after recovery (2 weeks) come to work with doctor's note...
and because You are liar (in manager's opinion) You are fired....
No, that unacceptable.

AckwelFoley

jhegarty wrote: »

Can't see any legal problem with it.... they know what he did , and called him on it....

As for not telling other people about the warning , I don't know of any reason why it helps him or them to spread it round....

You cannot fire or warn without PROOF!

Jackus

snyper wrote: »

You cannot fire or warn without PROOF!

Yeah, but after this incident, If they want, they will find any other reason to kick you out.

jhegarty

snyper wrote: »

You cannot fire or warn without PROOF!

You many not know it , but you can be fired for been out sick too often , even really sick....

leeroybrown

They can't legally consider him to be on probation after five years. A probation period must be one year or less at the start of a contract and must be specified in writing in the contract. After twelve months the unfair dismissals act applies fully so they'll have issues if they try to move him on too easily.

EDIT - Removed comment relating to company doctor as I think they would need to have it in the T&C's.

AckwelFoley

jhegarty wrote: »

You many not know it , but you can be fired for been out sick too often , even really sick....

LOL. No you cant.

Not with Medical Certs.

jhegarty

snyper wrote: »

LOL. No you cant.

Not with Medical Certs.

Have a good read :
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/unemployment-and-redundancy/dismissal/fair-grounds-for-dismissal

leeroybrown

snyper wrote: »

LOL. No you cant.

Not with Medical Certs.

In a lot of cases they can as long as they don't breach the unfair dismissals act. It's not something an employer should consider lightly though as it does need to be proved on it's own merits.

AckwelFoley

better get my sick ass back to work on Monday....

hel_hev

jhegarty wrote: »

Have a good read :
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/unemployment-and-redundancy/dismissal/fair-grounds-for-dismissal

im too lazy to read all that lol, which section should i read ?

AckwelFoley

It was posted for my benefit not yours.

Basically getting fored for being sick, they need to show clearly a general pattern of absenteeism ad that it affects the business.

A once off like your mate, doesnt fall under this.
#
They still need proof he lied.

hel_hev

snyper wrote: »

It was posted for my benefit not yours.

Basically getting fored for being sick, they need to show clearly a general pattern of absenteeism ad that it affects the business.

A once off like your mate, doesnt fall under this.
#
They still need proof he lied.

yeah, thats what i thought .. apart from that the guy isnt out that much ,,
i seen the managers talking about something amongst themselves , i was walking past & the least "bullying" one was saying to the top boss
"is this legal" looking worried (he was given the job of giving the warning) i swear ...
they must of being talking about that coz a while after they called the guy in for the warning
there is one boss who is a bully , that rang the "sick" guy and told him to come in or esle etc when he was out .. the guy kept saying he was sick .. and still didnt come in till the following week
this boss is now trying to make a rule that people have to ask to go to the toilet ... its mad .. i was reading a internet forum about liverpool for some reason had storys about factory worker in unions years ago in liverpool striking over less then things employers are getting away with now ....

kleefarr

See the doctor.

AckwelFoley

hel lev, you must work in retail

hel_hev

i dont work in retail , i work in a office :eek:

leeroybrown

Unfortunately, while they'll probably find it awkward to sack your co-worker for this they may well take it out on the rest of you too. I can certainly imagine them becoming far less accommodating in the case of sick employees from now on.

hel_hev

leeroybrown wrote: »

Unfortunately, while they'll probably find it awkward to sack your co-worker for this they may well take it out on the rest of you indirectly. I can certainly imagine them becoming far less accommodating in the case of sick employees from now on.

its a large multinational , they couldnt really change the gereral rules , over the actions of one guy , i very much doubt ...

damnyanks

It would be pretty simple to prove that he took the holiday if it went to court. They do track you when / if you leave the country. Simple call to the airlines, hotel or travel agent will show he left the country and had no return ticket for the same day.

Fella sounds like an idiot to book something before it's been given off.

padser

snyper wrote: »

You cannot fire or warn without PROOF![/B]

Putting your only sentence in a post into bold is really annoying for other posters. It's almost as bad as doing it all in capitals.


I don't see any reason legally why you would be prevented from giving a employee a warning without proof. The warning only becomes an issue - legally - when the company attempts to dismiss the employee.

At that point if the employee were to challenge the dismissal under the unfair dismissals act the multinational (considering they probably have a team of solicitors) could opt to have the matter heard by the circuit court. While there they would allege that you had gone on holidays and called in sick for the week. The employee would deny it and wave a doctors cert around.

Now I am not certain if the circuit court can order the disclosure of things such as bank statements in unfair dismissal's case - but assuming they can a simple look at the statement for the month in question probably shows the employee withdrawing money abroad. Airline records would also show him leaving the country.


Of course would a multinational go to this trouble to avoid paying some compensation to an employee they dismissed? Probably not. On the other hand if they have 1000,s of other employees, and they would like to stop the rest of them thinking they can get away with the same trick - they just might.

Hagar

hel_hev wrote: »

what does every one think ?

I think it's situations like this that totally undermine the trust relationship between employees and employers.

Tell bare faced lies to your employer and then hide behind a bogus sick cert, no employer should have to put up with that.

No doctor should issue bogus certs either. If they stopped issuing certs to people who weren't sick then people would not be able to abuse the system.

nesf

Jackus wrote: »

Yeah, but after this incident, If they want, they will find any other reason to kick you out.

Pretty much nail on head there. The biggest issue for the guy is going to be the thin ice he'll be on until management get over it/forget about it.

nesf

snyper wrote: »

LOL. No you cant.

Not with Medical Certs.

The workforce isn't like secondary school where med certs got you off of everything.

Agent Smith

Hagar wrote: »

I think it's situations like this that totally undermine the trust relationship between employees and employers.

Tell bare faced lies to your employer and then hide behind a bogus sick cert, no employer should have to put up with that.

No doctor should issue bogus certs either. If they stopped issuing certs to people who weren't sick then people would not be able to abuse the system.

tbh its Very easy to get a sick cert


me: doc, my back's killing me, i think i hurt it playing football last week"
Doc: rest it for a few days
me: ah ok, can i get a cert, just to show work?
doc: no problem

smemon

yeah arranging holidays before getting approval from work is pretty stupid...

ok, maybe it was a great deal, but at least have the balls to talk to managers etc... explain the situation, promise to make it up to them...

that's honest and although they mightn't like to hear it, it's MUCH better than being sly about it and deliberately lying.

shows a lack of communication and respect between management staff and this sort of stuff can only make things worse.

Armin_Tamzarian

I suppose another way of looking at this is that just because someone is too ill to work doesn't mean that they are too ill to go on a holiday.

Let's say this guy has sustained a broken bone or muscle damage then
it's quite feasible that he could go off abroad for a week and take it easy there for a while.
Even if he's dosed with the flu or some virus or other, he could still go on holidays.
May as well lie around feeling sick in the sunshine as opposed to making yourself feel even more miserable by staying in Ireland with the horrible weather.

I'm not aware of any rule that states that if you're on sick leave from work, that you must stay at home while you're off sick.

Nody

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

I suppose another way of looking at this is that just because someone is too ill to work doesn't mean that they are too ill to go on a holiday.

Let's say this guy has sustained a broken bone or muscle damage then
it's quite feasible that he could go off abroad for a week and take it easy there for a while.
Even if he's dosed with the flu or some virus or other, he could still go on holidays.
May as well lie around feeling sick in the sunshine as opposed to making yourself feel even more miserable by staying in Ireland with the horrible weather.

I'm not aware of any rule that states that if you're on sick leave from work, that you must stay at home while you're off sick.

Only got two words for you, Company Doctor.

SarahMc

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

I suppose another way of looking at this is that just because someone is too ill to work doesn't mean that they are too ill to go on a holiday.

Let's say this guy has sustained a broken bone or muscle damage then
it's quite feasible that he could go off abroad for a week and take it easy there for a while.

But this guy had already asked for this time off (presumingly there is a paper trail for this request), he was told no (deadline looming, other staff off that week, whatever), happens to get sick that week, and happens to go on holiday that week to recuperate.

All his manager needs to prove is that the warning was warranted.

TBH your friend hasn't a hope of an unfair dismissal case.

Armin_Tamzarian

But coincidence isn't fact.
We can all be 99% sure that the guy pulled a fast one but we can't prove it.
Even if it could be proved that he went off on holidays he could turn around and say that he was sick but he went on holidays regardless.
I don't see how any official discipline could be applied here but
obviously you'd expect management to get at the guy in other ways.

I recently came across a guy who asked for a day off and was refused.
The day before the day of his refused holiday the guy went up to his boss with a bottle of water he'd been drinking.
He showed his boss that there was what looked like rat poison lying at the bottom of the bottle (rat poison had been layed that day).
He then claimed he had drank some of the water before noticing and was feeling ill.

The whole thing was ridiculous, it was bad enough that he tried to convince everyone that someone had put rat poison in his water as a prank.
Then he moped about for the rest of the day claiming he felt ill instead of going to a hospital, I know I would have been straight into A&E.

Anyhow, needless to say he didn't turn up for work the next day.
His boss wasn't very happy and made all sorts of threats to sack him, etc.
Yer man turned up to work on Monday and nothing was said to him, because even though it was blatantly obvious to everyone what had happened, there was no proof.

Newaglish

I'm fairly sure that if they wanted to follow it up they could probably prove that he was on a flight or whatnot for that week.

I personally have no sympathy for this person. He asked for time off, didn't get it and then produced a false sick cert to get his own way. It's so incredibly obvious to everyone he works with that he's lying.

If he could only afford that holiday on that specific week, and he couldn't get the week off, it's tough luck. If he hasn't enough money for an expensive holiday, he just has to go on a cheaper one. That's life unfortunately.

hel_hev

theres a bit more to this storey ... he is from abroad , went home to see family ... he wanted 2 weeks , they only could give him one at that time ...
also he didnt actully have enough holidays as far as im aware... i think he asked for the time unpaid ...
so they knew he was going on holidays ... he just came back a week later ... the stupid thing he did was he rang in sick on a thursday .. he was due in on the monday .. and said he would be sick for the whole of the next week ...
he should have waited till monday morning and rang in a hour before his shift started ,, as u would normally ... by ringing in on the thursday , i think he gave it away that he would nt be flying home ...
if he 'd been clever , he should of called from a withheld or irish mobile into work , and said he was back in ireland but sick ....

Nody

hel_hev wrote: »

if he 'd been clever , he should of called from a withheld or irish mobile into work , and said he was back in ireland but sick ....

Which I would promptly have followed up with: Can you please give me a number I can reach you on.

If asked why see my previous post.

hel_hev

Nody wrote: »

Which I would promptly have followed up with: Can you please give me a number I can reach you on.

If asked why see my previous post.

he could of given irish mobile number back ...
as for company doctor .. never heard of any1 where i work being checked out by company doctor ..
years ago i worked pt in Debenhams ,, it was in the contract, that if they requested they can have u checked out by company doctor, but where i work now, there was nothing like that in the contract ....

hel_hev

hey new goins on in this story ...

the guy that is still being threatened ... (but still hasnt been sacked :rolleyes:)

is now being offered a promotion ?

scaryer .... i think the crazy boss may think i myself am siding with this guy (by siding i mean , ive been seen talking to him on my coffee break)

and tryed to get me to sign a thing , that was falsely accusing me of doing something i didnt do myself ... (wont go into but VERY petty reason)

i refused to sign aswell , they offered me a promotion the next day ..

only me and this guy was offered promotions ???

i said no straight away , smile politely and said thanks for considering me , but i am really happy where i am ... (its a promotion , but not much of one, very boring job, alot more work , a very small salery increase)


the alarms bells start going off in my head when i seen these bullying managers whispering amongst themselves .. and then asking that guy on a plate a promotion ?

Doesnt make sense , threating to as far as i have research illegally sack someone , but then offering them a promotion ...

the website www.bullyonline.org seems to be down , when i most need it !

has anyone heard / seen a situation like this before ...

basically someone in sh*t in work , then being offered a promotion ?
only reason i can think is if he makes a mistake ( as people can in a new job ) no matter how small ( they are really petty)
it could be used as a reason to sack him ..
as for me , i dont know if its just coindence (because at least the job i was offered was real , ie seen a vacancie ad for it)
the one the made for him seems totally made up .. or if they hate me just for still TALKING to the guy now !! :eek:

anyone in a normal workplace with sensible people prob think my post is mad ,,

after reading my post , what does every one think ? are my bosses up to something ? or do i have a suspicious mind ?

Armin_Tamzarian

Who's your boss, C. Montgomery Burns?
Or David Brent perhaps...

hel_hev

where i work likes to promote the big happy family image :rolleyes:
i am nearly thinking now , because i told my workmate ,when he asked,that i thought what they were doing was illegal (hopefully,for some reason, he didnt tell them it was me lol ) and they see me chatting to him ..

i seen him try to ask a supervisor a question today , the supervisor looked at him in disgust and barely answered him , this is a supervisor of another team :eek:

this is also a person that was very over friendly and "team spirit" before ...
they also gave me a dirty look ... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME! :eek:

i dont know if im getting paranoid , but the place can be a bit cult-ish , because 1 manager hates a guy that p*ssed them off and his friend ( that has nothing to do with it) is that a reason for all managers to go on like that ...

again i dont know if i m being paranoid , the guy isnt irish .. i am ...
the most bullying boss is the only irish one ..
i am starting to wonder ... do they think i advised this guy on "the law"
but they know the law in his country would be pretty much like here . also he lives here like 10 years or something ....

anyway the most strange thing is the sudden offers of promotion ..
wtf is that about ?

dresden8

Maybe they're creating a post that will miraculously disappear next month and they can make him redundant.

If they make him redundant in his current post and then fill it with someone else he has them by the knackers.

But then again I'm just an old time conspiracy theorist.

tricky D

damnyanks wrote: »

It would be pretty simple to prove that he took the holiday if it went to court....
Fella sounds like an idiot to book something before it's been given off.

Yep, I would have thought this is pretty simple too. If I was the boss, I'd go ahead and give a written warning. If there's any hassle back, just invite him to go take a case with the Employment Appeals Tribunal, reminding him that they have the power to order discovery of documents like your bank account and phone records which along with the timeline would prove his dishonesty. Remind him also of the costs of losing such a case and, as a finishing touch, tell him that this is his Final Warning.