Muscle balance - quads and hams

cutback

In general, do people think that when using cable/pulley machines, should the weight you lift on a quads machine equal the weight you lift on the hamstring machine?

Also, what about chest press and row, should you have balance in the weight you can push and pull.

Any thoughts?

Reyman

I came across this table of desirable strength ratios a while back. It concentrates on shoulders and thighs because this is where imbalances are most common:


Quad : Hamstring 3 :2
In. Shoulder rotators:External Shoulder Rotators 3 : 2
Back Shoulder.: Front Shoulder 3 : 2
Biceps :Triceps 1 : 1

The Shane

I think it's largely irrelevant.

In a decent strength and conditioning program this should really take care of itself. A decent program should contain Squatting, Deadlifting, shoulder pressing and chin/pull ups. People will add the bench press in their as well but I'm not overly pushed (no pun intended) about that.

A squat performed well, will elicit the help of the hamstrings and a deadlift most certainly will. These exercises respond to much the same programming (the deadlift is a greater stressor in novices so may get greater rest periods). So assuming that your intention is to lift as much weight as possible, these things balance out. As for the upper body, the imbalances in the shoulders in my experience is down to people who concentrate on the bench press to the exclusion of all other exercises, the shoulder press apart from it's other benefits stresses the shoulder more evenly. Combine this with chins or pull ups which get weighted to keep them to the same rep scheme and there should be no imbalance.

If the question is posed by an injured person or someone who cannot squat/deadlift due to some other condition, then I suppose you need to worry about these things. If not an injured person - I can't help but feel your workout is less than optimal - in the realm of strength building anyway. Since this question asked about strength ratios I assume that is the realm in question.

Shane, The

johnathan woss

Just out of interest how does the shoulder press work the shoulder more evenly than the bench press ?

Alot of people have bad technique on the bench press but if you activate the muscles around your scapulae correctly it's good for your whole shoulder I would have thought ?

Reyman

Squatting or deadlifting together with presses of various sorts are usually very good for limiting the effect of muscle imbalances. But they are not going to sort our shoulder problems such as impingement caused by shoulder rotator imbalances. You often need to do specific exercises to keep everything shipshape.

Running Bing

Reyman wrote: »

Squatting or deadlifting together with presses of various sorts are usually very good for limiting the effect of muscle imbalances. But they are not going to sort our shoulder problems such as impingement caused by shoulder rotator imbalances. You often need to do specific exercises to keep everything shipshape.

This has me a bit worried.


For the past three months I have been doing just Bench press, shoulder press and Deadlift.

Could I be doing myself harm?

Hanley

Babybing wrote: »

This has me a bit worried.


For the past three months I have been doing just Bench press, shoulder press and Deadlift.

Could I be doing myself harm?

If you're not doing any lat, upper back or rear delt work then yes. Sooner or later you'll end up injured.

As an aside... if you're exclusively using machines then you've far bigger problems than worrying aobut muscle imbalances.

Running Bing

Hanley wrote: »

If you're not doing any lat, upper back or rear delt work then yes. Sooner or later you'll end up injured.

As an aside... if you're exclusively using machines then you've far bigger problems than worrying aobut muscle imbalances.

If I added bent over rows and Chin ups to my workout would that help matters or would you advise even more diversity?

Hanley

Face Pulls, Chins, Pulldowns, Chest Supported Rows, Bent Over Rows, Dumbbell Rows, Bent Over Lateral Raises....

There's a few for you to have a go at. Personally I do at least 1 per training session, and 2 on one of my training days.

3-5x8-12 for sets and reps. The "bigger" movements like the rows and chins should probably be closer to the 8 rep range, and the face pulls, bent over raises etc closer to 12-15 reps.

cutback

"As an aside... if you're exclusively using machines then you've far bigger problems than worrying aobut muscle imbalances."


I'd genuinely rather be doing squats and deadlifts but fear of bad techique scares me off and I end up doing the machines because I know I have much less chance of going wrong.

Where should I start re. heavy squats and deadlifts? Smith machine? Dumbells?

Thanks to everyone who gave info.

BossArky

cutback wrote: »

Where should I start re. heavy squats and deadlifts? Smith machine? Dumbells?

Stay away from the smith machine for squatting as it will lead you in an irregular path and possibly hurt your back.

Get a trainer, or someone who knows what they are doing to show you proper squat and deadlift form. Start with just the bar (i.e. 20kg for an olympic bar).

Colm_OReilly

Machines force you to move along a set path, a path which is not dictated by gravity, biomechanics, or your antropometry.

To start squatting, start air squatting. Get the technique down, add a broomstick on your back. Start squatting. Video tape yourself and make adjustments accordingly. When you've technique down, add weight.

Just using machines will lead to imbalanced muscles, which is more likely going to lead to injury when you're outside the gym. "Say No to Smith Machines" is on one of our t-shirts. Come out to us and learn properly, or arrange to meet with one of the competitive power lifters here and see if they'll help you. Power lifters will have a slightly different squat technique then people interested in strenght/conditioning but they'll be leagues ahead of any fitness instructor I've seen.

Go to www.startingstrength.com and buy the book. It's well worth it.

Go to http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html#Power and view the videos on alignment and positioning.

Remember, squatting and deadlifting are not creations by power lifters, they are natural movements, and prehistoric. You get into bad habits over time through social learning and this weird environment humans did not biologically adapt to.

Please, stop using machines,
Colm

The Shane

johnathan woss wrote: »

Just out of interest how does the shoulder press work the shoulder more evenly than the bench press?

The shoulder press (and I'm talking about standing shoulder press here) involves taking the bar from the shoulders to full lockout overhead. With a heavy weight this involves a certain lean back. You get quite a lot of anterior stresss but there is also greater stress placed on the posterior and mid deltoids to stabilise the bar overhead as you move back in under the bar after the leanback. Some of this will be isometric but it does place a greater workload on the shoulder and give a more balanced exercise - that said you should be mixing in some pull ups.

As regards the bench - the more muscles you bring into play the better, if you have your feet on the ground and are getting that push along with using as much back as you can then that's as good as it gets. However when compared to the shoulder press it does not give as well rounded a workout to the shoulder. The bench is a much stronger lift and is probably the preferred measure of brute upper body strength.

Shane, The


Say no to Smith Machines

Reyman

Babybing wrote: »

This has me a bit worried.


For the past three months I have been doing just Bench press, shoulder press and Deadlift.

Could I be doing myself harm?

As Hanley says if you are doing a lot of 'press' movements you need to balance them with 'pull' or rowing type movements.

You ignore this at your peril!

mushykeogh

If an athlete can bench press > 5% more than their chin up(supinated grip) strength for the same amount of reps they are prone to injury.

Hanley

mushykeogh wrote: »

If an athlete can bench press > 5% more than their chin up(supinated grip) strength for the same amount of reps they are prone to injury.

Reference or source for this?

What athlete ISN'T prone to injury tho anyway...

mushykeogh

Hanley wrote: »

Reference or source for this?

What athlete ISN'T prone to injury tho anyway...

Very true but it makes sense to try and minimise the potential by reducing imbalances!."they may have shoulder strength imbalances that predispose them to injury".
Its from 'strength and conditioning coach' the australian strength and conditioning association magazine, volume 15 issue 2 2007. An article by Dr. Daniel baker phD on the differences between chin ups and lat pull downs.

Hanley

mushykeogh wrote: »

Very true but it makes sense to try and minimise the potential by reducing imbalances!."they may have shoulder strength imbalances that predispose them to injury".
Its from 'strength and conditioning coach' the australian strength and conditioning association magazine, volume 15 issue 2 2007. An article by Dr. Daniel baker phD on the differences between chin ups and lat pull downs.

I assume that article said something like how X on a pulldown doesn't equal X on a chin?

As for benching 5% more than you chin, I don't know if it's a very accurate measure tbh since they're different planes of movement. Surely row -vs- bench would be a better indicator? Of course that gives you problems because you need to decide what sort of row, and depending on the type of row OTHER weaknesses may limit your ability.

I guess they could be saying that chinning has a direct correlation to rowing strength and as a result THAT'S why it's a good indicator, but I doubt very much that's the case.

And why is it 5%...?

To be honest, it just seems to me that saying that benching anything over 5% of your best chin up for the same amount of reps if an overly simplified way of coming to the conclusion that you need strong lats to not only maintain shoulder health, but also to have a big bench.

But then again I haven't actually seen that article so all I have is assumptions.... And we all know your can't spell assumptions with a$$.

mushykeogh

Hanley wrote: »

I assume that article said something like how X on a pulldown doesn't equal X on a chin?

It dealt with grip variations and its effect on muscle recruitment patterns, different planes of motion, torso work and instability and how the resistance can be modied between the the two. Why 5%? no idea, didnt write the article! just thought it might have some relevance to some of the posts above.

Hanley

mushykeogh wrote: »

It dealt with grip variations and its effect on muscle recruitment patterns, different planes of motion, torso work and instability and how the resistance can be modied between the the two. Why 5%? no idea, didnt write the article! just thought it might have some relevance to some of the posts above.

In so far as having a big strong back will make shoulders healthier and you'll bench more, it definately does!!

5%, for a heavy weight lifter is certainly too low, even for a strong middleweight it is.... Like take a 100kg guy benching 210kg for a single, he'd need to be able to do a pull up with like 100kg hanging off a belt for him not to be prone to injury. Madness I tells ya....

Anyways, big strong back = less chance of a shoulder injury and a bigger bench. Not debating that at all!

mushykeogh

Hanley wrote: »

Anyways, big strong back = less chance of a shoulder injury and a bigger bench. Not debating that at all!

Absoloutely.