Ratings question.

meriwether

I was looking at the weights for the Pierse Hurdle.
Its a 0-145 race.
Now, I assume that the rating of 145 corrosponds to 145 pounds, yes/no?

So then, why is top weight 11-10 lb, hide the evidence, when this is a rating of 164 lb, by my reckoning? i.e. 11stone * 14 lb = 154lb, + 10lb?

If the rating only allows up to 145, shouldn't top weight have to carry 145lb?

Robin1982

A common misunderstanding.

145 refers to the Official Handicap rating assigned by the official handicapper, based upon a horse's previous performances. These ratings are used as a scale. A horse rated 140 is deemed 5lbs inferior to one weighted 145.

Race weights are determined by the conditions of the race. In this race, the top weight (highest official weighted entrant) carries 164lbs. The weights of the rest of the competitor are determined by their official ratings relative to the top weight i.e. horse rated 140 with top weight rated 145 will carry 159lbs.

meriwether

Gotcha.


This could potentially lead to horses, who are rated higher than 164lb (i.e. top weight) being actually underweighted for top races?

I.e. Kauto is rated 177 (ish), but he'l be carrying 11-10 in the Gold cup.

So, in theory, he's underweighted?

masterK

First of all weights based on ratings only apply to handicaps, so there'll be no chance of Kauto running in a handicap.

All handicaps will have a band on the what rated horses can enter. For instance the 3:20 at Lingfield today is a 0-95 race meaning no horse rated over 95 can enter. The highest rated horse in the race is Heavy Weather who is rated 91. Therefore he must carry the top weight of 11-12 (Top rated horse will almost always carry 11-12 or 11-10 in NH races). Venice road is rated one lower at 90, therefore he must carry 1lb less.

So it is not possible for a horse to be underweighted, the opposite can happen though. Races also have a minimum weight, usually 10 stone. Going back to the above example Heathache is rated 64 meaning he should be carrying 27lb (91-64) less than the top weight at 9-13, however since the minimum weight is 10 stone he has to carry an extra pound, therefore he is overweighted or as it is more commonly referred to "out of the handicap".

cson

In my own experience, you can find value on horses that step up in class but appear to be ~20lbs out of the handicap. NintyTwoTeam in Galway would be the one that springs to mind for me.

meriwether

masterK wrote: »

First of all weights based on ratings only apply to handicaps, so there'll be no chance of Kauto running in a handicap.

All handicaps will have a band on the what rated horses can enter. For instance the 3:20 at Lingfield today is a 0-95 race meaning no horse rated over 95 can enter. The highest rated horse in the race is Heavy Weather who is rated 91. Therefore he must carry the top weight of 11-12 (Top rated horse will almost always carry 11-12 or 11-10 in NH races). Venice road is rated one lower at 90, therefore he must carry 1lb less.

So it is not possible for a horse to be underweighted, the opposite can happen though. Races also have a minimum weight, usually 10 stone. Going back to the above example Heathache is rated 64 meaning he should be carrying 27lb (91-64) less than the top weight at 9-13, however since the minimum weight is 10 stone he has to carry an extra pound, therefore he is overweighted or as it is more commonly referred to "out of the handicap".

Wasn't the Old Roan, where he was second to Monets Garden a handicap?

EDIT: It says 'limited Handicap' on the racing post. What does that mean?

As for horses being out of the handicap - they obviously hugely disadvantaged by this, unless they escape the handicapper by getting in before a hike in weights comes into play?

meriwether

cson wrote: »

In my own experience, you can find value on horses that step up in class but appear to be ~20lbs out of the handicap. NintyTwoTeam in Galway would be the one that springs to mind for me.

What do you mean?
Im sorry, but rating is my blind spot.
Are you saying he's actually ahead of the handicapper, or something?

masterK

meriwether wrote: »

EDIT: It says 'limited Handicap' on the racing post. What does that mean?

A limited handicap is the same as a handicap just with a smaller gap between top and bottom weight, the band would be ratings of 70-90 rather than 0-90

meriwether

masterK wrote: »

A limited handicap is the same as a handicap just with a smaller gap between top and bottom weight, the band would be ratings of 70-90 rather than 0-90

Cheers!

purple'n'gold

I understand that a horse rated at 9stone 10 lbs would be 4 lbs out of the handicap. I.e. all national hunt races minimum wt 10 stone. But what does being out of the handicap proper mean?

Colonel Sanders

example explains that best P&G

Lets look at a hupothetical 0-140 handicap with the top rated horse rated 140 and carrying 11st 10. If another horse is rated 135 they will carry 5lbs less, a 130 rated horse will carry 10lbs less etc.

Assume that the minimum weight is 10st (24lbs less than top weight). Then any horse who is rated less than 116 will be 'out of the handicap' as they will be forced to carry more weight than the official ratings imply they should carry. a horse rated 110 should be recieving 30lbs from the top weight but will still have to carry 10st (6lbs more than he should). He is set to race from 6lbs out of the handicap or 6lbs 'wrong'.

purple'n'gold

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

example explains that best P&G

Lets look at a hupothetical 0-140 handicap with the top rated horse rated 140 and carrying 11st 10. If another horse is rated 135 they will carry 5lbs less, a 130 rated horse will carry 10lbs less etc.

Assume that the minimum weight is 10st (24lbs less than top weight). Then any horse who is rated less than 116 will be 'out of the handicap' as they will be forced to carry more weight than the official ratings imply they should carry. a horse rated 110 should be recieving 30lbs from the top weight but will still have to carry 10st (6lbs more than he should). He is set to race from 6lbs out of the handicap or 6lbs 'wrong'.

so any horse rated below 10st and having to carry 10st is out of the handicap, I understand that, but I often hear pundits saying a horse is out of the handicap "proper" what does that mean? It's often mentioned in relation to the Grand National, which is a big handicap, minium wt 10st.

Colonel Sanders

out of the handicap and out of the handicap 'proper' are exactly the same thing! Depends on which pundit you listen to as to which phrase is used!

purple'n'gold

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

out of the handicap and out of the handicap 'proper' are exactly the same thing! Depends on which pundit you listen to as to which phrase is used!

Thank you, that explains it!

Baggio

sorry for sticking my nose in folks...cant resist being a racing fan myself...

just wondering there....doesnt it say something abour Arkle and Flyingbolt,,that they were rated 220 and 218 (im almost certain of those figures...correct me if not!) and Kauto Star good tho he is is "only" 177!!!...its an awsome and sobering thought at just how good those 2 giants of racing actually were! considering all the hype around best mate and now kauto and denman ........sobering is the word!

happy galloping amigos...Baggio.....

Baggio

apologies folks seems Arkles figure was actually 212, flyingbolt 210,,,mill house 191.......still ya gotta admit they werre some 3some!!!

ciao'...Baggio...

mchurl

Baggio wrote: »

sorry for sticking my nose in folks...cant resist being a racing fan myself...

just wondering there....doesnt it say something abour Arkle and Flyingbolt,,that they were rated 220 and 218 (im almost certain of those figures...correct me if not!) and Kauto Star good tho he is is "only" 177!!!...its an awsome and sobering thought at just how good those 2 giants of racing actually were! considering all the hype around best mate and now kauto and denman ........sobering is the word!

happy galloping amigos...Baggio.....

Those ratings came at a very different time to todays ratings and i really dont think that Arkle or Flyingbolt were that far ahead of Kauto. Actually had this discussion with a friend of mine and we both came to the conclusion that it had to be because they were at such a different time.

Baggio

I disagree sir......have heard that excuse/argument many times...it doesnt stand up...coz Arkles speed record around sandown has never been broken...after 40+ years he's still the fastest over 3 miles around there...and that was carrying 12/7 his first run of the 65 season in the gallagher gold cup....yup its official his amazing performance that day stamped him as the greatest,,and its never been broken even by 10 stoners!

i think that says it all really.......he'd give a stone and more to Dessie who was a terrific horse himself...i really dont think kaoto would be any match for dessie never mind "himself"

ciao' amigos...Baggio.....