Cornered by a theist.

blah

This thread might come up twice a day for all I know, but anyway,

It annoys me that any theist can say to me "How can you not believe in God? You don't believe in an afterlife? You really don't believe in God?", like I'm some kind of freak/lunatic, but if I was to walk up to a theist and say "You really believe in God? You actually believe in an afterlife?", that would be deemed extremely offensive. How do I respond to this?

MagicMarker

It's ''atheist''. Not 'a theist'.

Plus, i have no clue what you're talking about. Your post is extremely confusing.

monkey tennis

Ask them if they believe in magic or fairies.

Andy-Pandy

Tell them you just believe in science and that you in fact just think you are a different form of ape. Thats what i say and believe.

Andy-Pandy

MagicMarker wrote: »

It's ''atheist''. Not 'a theist'.

Plus, i have no clue what you're talking about. Your post is extremely confusing.

Nope, it makes perfect sence. As you have said you have no clue what hes talking about.

monkey tennis

MagicMarker wrote: »

It's ''atheist''. Not 'a theist'.

A theist is someone who believes in god(s). The opposite of an atheist.

If you don't understand words, of course you're going to be confused.

www.dictionary.com

redfacedbear

If the person is being irritating or insulting I usually respond with 'No, I don't need the false comfort of a fictitious being or place to get me through life, thank you very much'

pclancy

I had a Jehovah's witness call to my house a few weeks back when i was home morning. His attitude became allmost offensive when I told him my views that I didnt think there was any divine or supreme being whatsoever and felt comfortable with scientific explanations for life and the universe or that I would take ancient celtic explanations over his. This drove him mad and his attitude was the same, making me feel like I was the lunatic!

He came back a few days later with a book about "is there a creator" which i must read to see his point of view. I will speak to him again if I meet him for debate's sake but i didnt like his attitude at all.

pclancy

monkey tennis wrote: »

A theist is someone who believes in god(s). The opposite of an atheist.

If you don't understand words, of course you're going to be confused.

www.dictionary.com

:D:D

Crucifix

Reply in a hushed tone "No, I'm going undercover to infiltrate the atheists", wink at them, and then say "YEP, THERE'S NO GOD" in a loud voice.

5uspect

"How can you not believe in God?"

I have no beliefs regarding the existence of any god. Just like the Pope has no beliefs regarding the resurrection(s) of Dr Who or the fate of the Battlestar Galactica. I don't believe your God doesn't exist, he may, however so might Thor, Orbital Teapots, the Pink Unicorn, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and a Scofflawcentric Universe exist.

...
Would that do?

blah

I guess my whole problem is that I don't even want to challenge them back. I never invited a debate with this person in the first place. But if I was a Muslim and a Christian strode up to me and said "Why do you believe in Allah?" "Why do you think women should wear headscarves?", etc, that would be considered very offensive by most.

cavedave

I usually act ignorant to a ridiculous degree

T:"How can you not believe in God?"
Me: Who is this God?
T: The guy who made us all
Me: I would like to meet this guy where does he live?
T: No hes the supreme being he is not a person
Me:So you have not met him? Have you seen him on TV then?
T: No hes god he lives in heaven he's not been on TV.
Me:So how do you know about him?


I have a competition with myself how many questions I can ask people before they give out to me for taking the piss

aidan24326

blah wrote: »

This thread might come up twice a day for all I know, but anyway,

It annoys me that any theist can say to me "How can you not believe in God? You don't believe in an afterlife? You really don't believe in God?", like I'm some kind of freak/lunatic, but if I was to walk up to a theist and say "You really believe in God? You actually believe in an afterlife?", that would be deemed extremely offensive. How do I respond to this?

Just calmly answer that you have no need to believe in such delusions. Say it with a really smug self-satisfied look, that drives them mad!

But seriously, remind the theist that as it is he/she who is making the assertion i.e that god exists and that their religion is the 'true' religion, that the burden of proof is on them, not you. And by the way, don't ever be too concerned about offending someone's religious persuasions, because they'd have no trouble in offending yours (or lack of in this case). If someone takes offence that you don't believe in their favourite fairytale than that's their problem, not yours.

Dades

Nobody in real life ever asks me why I don't believe in God.

Possibly because I'd only ever bring it up if it was relevant, and frankly, it usually isn't.

pH

If you find it happens often, and those who do it are mostly Christians then I suggest getting the following laminated onto a handy credit-card size handout.



Simply hand it to them and ask for any comments, you could also enquire if they found it offensive.

Scofflaw

blah wrote: »

I guess my whole problem is that I don't even want to challenge them back. I never invited a debate with this person in the first place. But if I was a Muslim and a Christian strode up to me and said "Why do you believe in Allah?" "Why do you think women should wear headscarves?", etc, that would be considered very offensive by most.

Ah - in that case tell them that you don't think about "stuff like that", thanks, and that you find the whole subject really boring - and yes, you've heard all the stuff before, thanks. If they persist, keep telling them "look sorry but this is really boring me". Even dedicated evangelicals find it hard to keep going in the face of it - partly out of politeness, partly out of self-esteem.

cordially,
Scofflaw

eoin5

It comes up every so often for me but people are generally more surprised than insulted that I dont believe in God. The questions they ask me are pretty genuine as opposed to trying to catch me out. I think if youre not out to have a battle then its very rare that youll end up cornered by a rabid theist.

estebancambias

cavedave wrote: »

I usually act ignorant to a ridiculous degree

T:"How can you not believe in God?"
Me: Who is this God?
T: The guy who made us all
Me: I would like to meet this guy where does he live?
T: No hes the supreme being he is not a person
Me:So you have not met him? Have you seen him on TV then?
T: No hes god he lives in heaven he's not been on TV.
Me:So how do you know about him?


I have a competition with myself how many questions I can ask people before they give out to me for taking the piss

That never happened, did it Dave?

BrianCalgary

blah wrote: »

I guess my whole problem is that I don't even want to challenge them back. I never invited a debate with this person in the first place. But if I was a Muslim and a Christian strode up to me and said "Why do you believe in Allah?" "Why do you think women should wear headscarves?", etc, that would be considered very offensive by most.

Why would that be considered offensive?

It would depend on teh approach, granted, but why be offended if someone genuinely wanted to know?

cavedave

estebancambias
That never happened, did it Dave?

Not those exact words no, but I do pretend not to understand the concept of God and religion to watch people try to explain them. The trick is not to go for the simple "why?" but to ask absurdly literalist queries.

JCB

blah wrote: »

How do I respond to this?

By explaining it to them as it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyav3nSN-H4

Please don't ban me!

Zillah

I have never once had someone try to convince me of their position outside of internet forums. No atheists tried to convince me in my younger years, no religious people try to save me these days. I'm as...uncompromising...in person as I am here, so most people have learned not to get into an argument unless they really want an argument. Most people seem to be simpering cowards when it comes to their beliefs.

That said, I've convinced loads of people that they aren't actually Catholics/Christians. Most people start off the conversation going "I'm a Catholic" and by the end they understand they are in fact a marginal deist. Its so easy to do really. As the poster above shows, it truly is a ludicrous proposition.

- Do you believe that Jesus was the literal son of/incarnation of God, the supreme ruler of the universe and the entity featured in the Bible?
- Do you believe that the Virgin Mary literally flew into the sky and went to heaven rather than dying like a normal person?
- Do you understand and agree with the notion of the Trinity?
- Do you understand and agree with the notion of Papal infallibility?
- Do you understand and agree with the notion of transubstantiation?

etc etc

Once people, especially those in my age group, are confronted with what Catholicsm really is about they feel a bit embarrassed.

Tim Robbins

pclancy wrote: »

I had a Jehovah's witness call to my house a few weeks back when i was home morning. His attitude became allmost offensive when I told him my views that I didnt think there was any divine or supreme being whatsoever and felt comfortable with scientific explanations for life and the universe or that I would take ancient celtic explanations over his. This drove him mad and his attitude was the same, making me feel like I was the lunatic!

He came back a few days later with a book about "is there a creator" which i must read to see his point of view. I will speak to him again if I meet him for debate's sake but i didnt like his attitude at all.

That sounds head recking.
Ask him who he thinks created God? Or if he wonders if God has faith in someone created him.

Dades

Lazarus! Back from the dead...

I'd say it's been quiet around here without you, Tim, but save for the week-long feast of Saint Turkey it hasn't!

estebancambias

Zillah wrote: »

I have never once had someone try to convince me of their position outside of internet forums. No atheists tried to convince me in my younger years, no religious people try to save me these days. I'm as...uncompromising...in person as I am here, so most people have learned not to get into an argument unless they really want an argument. Most people seem to be simpering cowards when it comes to their beliefs.

That said, I've convinced loads of people that they aren't actually Catholics/Christians. Most people start off the conversation going "I'm a Catholic" and by the end they understand they are in fact a marginal deist. Its so easy to do really. As the poster above shows, it truly is a ludicrous proposition.


- Do you believe that Jesus was the literal son of/incarnation of God, the supreme ruler of the universe and the entity featured in the Bible?
- Do you believe that the Virgin Mary literally flew into the sky and went to heaven rather than dying like a normal person?
- Do you understand and agree with the notion of the Trinity?
- Do you understand and agree with the notion of Papal infallibility?
- Do you understand and agree with the notion of transubstantiation?

etc etc

Once people, especially those in my age group, are confronted with what Catholicsm really is about they feel a bit embarrassed.

There is only one religion, but thousands with different beliefs.

God is the most important aspect of faith. This is why I love Religion, not Catholicism. That is why I don't buy the argument, if you were born in Tripoli would you be Christian....no I would not but I would believe in God.

Dave!

estebancambias wrote: »

There is only one religion, but thousands with different beliefs.

God is the most important aspect of faith. This is why I love Religion, not Catholicism. That is why I don't buy the argument, if you were born in Tripoli would you be Christian....no I would not but I would believe in God.

And if you were born around 500BC you'd also believe in god. In fact you'd believe in MANY gods -- eg. Zeus, Apollo, Athena, Aphrodite. You certainly wouldn't be a Christian, nor would you believe in the Abrahamic god that you apparantly believe is a hybrid of every god in the world.

Zillah

estebancambias wrote: »

There is only one religion, but thousands with different beliefs.

God is the most important aspect of faith. This is why I love Religion, not Catholicism. That is why I don't buy the argument, if you were born in Tripoli would you be Christian....no I would not but I would believe in God.

So ultimately you're just a wishy washy theist with nothing to say beyond your subjective notion of God, which while technically impossible to disprove, is about as useful as a cigarette with no lighter.

Sangre

If a theist actually did confront me with such a question I'd tell them that I couldn't believe in a god that would give my 8 year old brother cancer and allow him to die a slow, painful death.

That would probably make him think twice about approaching someone else.

estebancambias

DaveMcG wrote: »

And if you were born around 500BC you'd also believe in god. In fact you'd believe in MANY gods -- eg. Zeus, Apollo, Athena, Aphrodite. You certainly wouldn't be a Christian, nor would you believe in the Abrahamic god that you apparantly believe is a hybrid of every god in the world.

Check and mate.

Zombrex

You would also have ended up in hell ...

Sam Vimes

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Why would that be considered offensive?

It would depend on teh approach, granted, but why be offended if someone genuinely wanted to know?

generally people get offended because they can't answer the question beyond "that's what my parents told me"

Sam Vimes

estebancambias wrote: »

There is only one religion, but thousands with different beliefs.

i don't understand.....

estebancambias wrote: »

God is the most important aspect of faith. This is why I love Religion, not Catholicism. That is why I don't buy the argument, if you were born in Tripoli would you be Christian....no I would not but I would believe in God.

which god? they're not all the same. and doesn't that say more about your mindset than the chances of there being a god

Cactus Col

Where does all this approaching people and finding about their religious beliefs happen?!?!

I've never been approached by anybody demanding why I do or don't believe in God!!!!!

Should I wear any special type of clothes? A cross? A spaghetti monster tshirt? I used to own an Axl Rose style Kill Your Idols tshirt...

I just don't talk about this stuff in public, it's nobody else's business, so noone ever corners me about it
and that's just fine

Dave!

Think I've only ever talked about it 'IRL' twice... Even with atheist friends, I find it's a taboo subject and it's a bit awkward to talk about Maybe it's just me though

Nightwish

I've had many a street evangelist shout at me, but that was probably due to the long black clothes and the plethora of pentagrams I was wearing. I must admit I was rude and stuck my finger up at them.

I've had plenty of experience with evangelical christians, as my dad is presbyterian and his church has a very strong proselytizing ethos. My dads side of the family are primarily like this, so I've had lots of arguments throughout my teenage years regarding their beliefs versus my lack of. The usual debate concerning believing and worshipping mythical beings was thrown at them so much they just stopped.

Zillah

Cactus Col wrote: »

A cross?

That might do it. I've started such discussions when I've seen people wearing a cross before. Obviously not strangers on the street mind you...

bogwalrus

the only conversations i ever get to have about beliefs is with the odd Jahovas that come to the door ( i dont meen odd as in weird looking though one of them did look a bit quasi). Funnily enough the ones in my area always agree with what you are saying about life and existence and say that it is what they believe as jahovas until you open the pamphlet they hand you and its the exact opposite preachings as what they were previously agreeing with you on. Stuff about magical fairies and all this mess of stuff. Now that i think of it one of them was preaching some buddist beliefs. A buddhist infiltrating the jahovas maybe??

Scofflaw

bogwalrus wrote: »

the only conversations i ever get to have about beliefs is with the odd Jahovas that come to the door ( i dont meen odd as in weird looking though one of them did look a bit quasi). Funnily enough the ones in my area always agree with what you are saying about life and existence and say that it is what they believe as jahovas until you open the pamphlet they hand you and its the exact opposite preachings as what they were previously agreeing with you on. Stuff about magical fairies and all this mess of stuff. Now that i think of it one of them was preaching some buddist beliefs. A buddhist infiltrating the jahovas maybe??

Jahovas? Some kind of Rastafarian?

cordially,
Scofflaw

5uspect

Scofflaw wrote: »

Jahovas? Some kind of Rastafarian?

cordially,
Scofflaw

They're like Pastafarians only they worship a Flying Jaffa Cake Monster.

Zamboni

I was standing waiting on Grafton St waiting for the missus around xmas and happened to stand near some guys with a crib.
One of them made the mistake of offering me a prayer card. It all went downhill from there.
It was the first time I was 'cornered' by a theist in public and I really enjoyed the argument until his muppet sidekick came over and started quoting scripture from the old testament rather than engaging in a mature discussion.
The sad thing is if I stood on Grafton Street taking about atheists to random member of the public, people would think you're a nutjob.
Whereas these clowns get away with their silly cribs.:rolleyes:

Whispered

Nightwish wrote: »

due to the long black clothes and the plethora of pentagrams I was wearing. .

Are you an athiest? If so, just wondering, why the pentagrams?

Sangre wrote: »

If a theist actually did confront me with such a question I'd tell them that I couldn't believe in a god that would give my 8 year old brother cancer and allow him to die a slow, painful death.

That would probably make him think twice about approaching someone else.

When we are talking about "confront" do we mean in an agressive way or just asking questions? I'm a very nosey person and tend to ask questions a lot! But it is genuinely to find out, not to be confrontational. I think there is a big difference between the two. If someone was asking you about your (lack of) faith and was genuinely interested, would you reply like that?? I would be mortified if you did and to be honnest, pretty upset that you would use something like that to avoid answering a question.

Also, an athiest is someone who does not believe in God due to lack of sceintific proof? An athiest is not someone who doesn't believe in God because something truly awful happened to them and they're mad at "God". Obviously I'm not an athiest but from the questions I've asked here before (which were patiently answered TVM) thats my understanding of it. So apologies if I'm wrong.

Dades

helena.ryan wrote: »

Also, an athiest is someone who does not believe in God due to lack of sceintific proof? An athiest is not someone who doesn't believe in God because something truly awful happened to them and they're mad at "God". Obviously I'm not an athiest but from the questions I've asked here before (which were patiently answered TVM) thats my understanding of it. So apologies if I'm wrong.

Since you can't scientifically disprove something as intangible as an invisible "god", evidence of non-existence takes on other forms.

Frankly, for me, Sangre's reference to his brother's death seems like reasonable evidence that a benevolent god isn't in fact watching our backs, and that life and death are inevitable and occasionally cruel events over which we, or anyone else have no control.

My 2 cents anyways.

Whispered

I see what you mean, my understanding of athiesm is not the best anyway. Up until recently I thought it was just a non-belief in everything. I'm still only learning.

I just thought the post about his brother reads a bit like. "something bad happened to me, so i wont believe in god because i'm mad at life" not an actual decision based on rational thought which i thought was the basis of athiesm? Obviously I cant read tone of voice so it may not have been the sweeping emotional statement it seemed to be.

Zillah

helena.ryan wrote: »

I just thought the post about his brother reads a bit like. "something bad happened to me, so i wont believe in god because i'm mad at life" not an actual decision based on rational thought which i thought was the basis of athiesm?

It is a very rationale argument against an all loving God. Either God doesn't exist or if he does he's not very nice/doesn't really care about us.

Also, an athiest is someone who does not believe in God due to lack of sceintific proof?

An atheist is someone who does not believe in God.


The reasons for them not believing don't matter, they're still an atheist.

Whispered

Zillah wrote: »

It is a very rationale argument against an all loving God. Either God doesn't exist or if he does he's not very nice/doesn't really care about us.



An atheist is someone who does not believe in God.


The reasons for them not believing don't matter, they're still an atheist.

Ok I see what you are saying but an athiest does not believe in God, be it an all loving God or otherwise so I still think that the comment is more of an emotional reaction then a thought out decision to not believe.

Technically an athiest is anybody who does not believe in God, no matter their reason, fair enough. But most athiests reasons for not believing are extremley well thought out and rational (yes thats a compliment). An emotional reaction is never well thought out and seems to me to be as bad as someone saying "I believe in God because............." because its not thought out, it's a sweeping statement made without any thought, and is like acccepting a (non)belief without rationalising it. You know what I mean?

By the way I just want to mention that I am not attacking beliefs or lack of, I just find it interesting, so please dont take insult with anything I'm saying. It's all genuinely interesting me and I'm not here to try "convert the heathens"

Dades

helena.ryan wrote: »

Ok I see what you are saying but an athiest does not believe in God, be it an all loving God or otherwise so I still think that the comment is more of an emotional reaction then a thought out decision to not believe.

I think in the context Sangre's remarks are relevant. The type of god promoted when "cornered by a theist" (!), is almost always the benevolent God that loves us all. We should not turn our backs to God as he would never do that to us... etc. etc. It's that 'type' of God that appears inconsistent with that particular experience.

I doubt the tragedy would be brought up in a discussion with, say a self-professed pantheist or a deist for example.

helena.ryan wrote: »

By the way I just want to mention that I am not attacking beliefs or lack of, I just find it interesting, so please dont take insult with anything I'm saying. It's all genuinely interesting me and I'm not here to try "convert the heathens"

I think that's recognised.

Whispered

So is someone who disbelieves in God, and does so for a non-rational (by rational I mean thought out) reason does that make him or her any less of an athiest? I dont think I'm explaining myself properly, religion is believed through emotions mainly because you just can rationalise it! So belief in God is, (besides learned) an emotional response. So if a person has an emotional dis-blelief in God, is he still an athiest? Do you know what I mean?

Dave!

But in the case of Sangre, it would not merely be an emotional response -- it would be a rational one. A god who is all good and philanthropic, and wants only the best for everyone would not give a child cancer, so therefore cannot exist.

I don't think that that's actually Sangre's reasoning for not believing though... I took from his post that that's just what he'd say because it would put a theist in their place!

There is no "more" or "less" of an atheist BTW. You either believe in a deity/creator or you don't -- your reasoning for that are irrelevent really. If you do not believe out of spite for the Catholic Church for example, then you're still an atheist... you just probably won't get much respect from your fellow atheist for it! lol

Dades

helena.ryan wrote: »

So if a person has an emotional dis-blelief in God, is he still an athiest? Do you know what I mean?

I don't really understand what an "emotional disbelief" is. What that sounds like your getting at is the situation where someone believes they have been 'forsaken' for want of a better word. I don't believe you can become an atheist through anger of disillusionment with God. With the CHURCH, maybe, but not God as this would require belief in something to be angry with to begin!

An atheist can't be angry with, or hate the god of a religion any more than you can with Hans Gruber in Die Hard! In essence there's no personal or emotional connection as the other party is considered fictional.

That said, I don't presume to speak for the atheists here, as I don't think there's a criteria for being one - other than disbelief.