Overtraining discussion

Hanley

barclay2 wrote: »

I cant really offer you any specific type of weights regime, but if you've been goin to the gym religiously and seen no results there could be a few common mistakes you're making.

Firstly, you may be overtraining. If you work the same muscles on consecutive days, you're overtraining. Muscles grow in between workouts, not during them - the weights session "damages" your muscles and once you're finished they go into recovery and start to make themselves stronger. This recovery period takes 48 hours, so if you work them again before the 48 hours is up, you're not actually giving your muscles the time to grow.

Overtraining... there's that word again.

Overtraining isn't something that'll just happen to a normal gym goer. Training on consecutive days isn't over training. Your muscles don't need 48 hours to recover. Some of the biggest and strongest people in the world train the same muscle group 4 and 5x per week.

To the OP. There's no miracle potions. Your body doesn't like being pushed out of it's natural equilibrium and will do anything it can to avoid it.

barclay2

Hanley wrote: »

Overtraining... there's that word again.

Overtraining isn't something that'll just happen to a normal gym goer. Training on consecutive days isn't over training. Your muscles don't need 48 hours to recover. Some of the biggest and strongest people in the world train the same muscle group 4 and 5x per week.

To the OP. There's no miracle potions. Your body doesn't like being pushed out of it's natural equilibrium and will do anything it can to avoid it.

Can you cite something in support of that? Like a reliable website or anything? Cos all the reading ive done on the issue, and i mean all, (im not an expert by any means, but i read about it often enough online when im bored in work) has said that you shouldnt work the same muscle on consecutive days

Hanley

barclay2 wrote: »

Can you cite something in support of that? Like a reliable website or anything? Cos all the reading ive done on the issue, and i mean all, (im not an expert by any means, but i read about it often enough online when im bored in work) has said that you shouldnt work the same muscle on consecutive days

18 pages of under the bar experience: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055097149

2 of the greatest powerlifting trainers in the world http://www.elitefts.com/sheiko/Sheiko_book.htm and http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles.htm

I'm not sure if there are "reliable" enough, but they work in the real world. Theory, logic and assumptions are all well and good. But if they don't work in the real world then they mean jack sh!t.

g'em

Would it be fair to say though that for a beginner, training on consecutive days would leave them fairly DOM ridden and feeling a bit rough and therefore less likely to train efficiently or effectively? When you're getting going training every other day lets you rest and recuperate enough to go to the gym with plenty of energy.

For the advanced lifter though, there's no harm at all in back-to-back training days, as long as you don't push yourself beyond reasonable limits. Even the hardcore have limits

pa daly

Hanley wrote: »

Overtraining... there's that word again.

.

Is it true that muscles do not grow in the gym but through rest and eating???

Therefore what is considered enough rest to maximise muscle growth.

Or as gem pointed out is it different strokes for different folks? Depending how long you have been lifting..

davyjose

barclay2 wrote: »

Can you cite something in support of that? Like a reliable website or anything? Cos all the reading ive done on the issue, and i mean all, (im not an expert by any means, but i read about it often enough online when im bored in work) has said that you shouldnt work the same muscle on consecutive days

Well that's just it - the man does it himself and knows through experience that it works for him, not through reading books. The point is, everyone is different, but it's better to find out that you're overtraining and make adjustments, than to undertrain, and see no results!

Hanley

g'em wrote: »

Would it be fair to say though that for a beginner, training on consecutive days would leave them fairly DOM ridden and feeling a bit rough and therefore less likely to train efficiently or effectively? When you're getting going training every other day lets you rest and recuperate enough to go to the gym with plenty of energy.

Depending on the volume and intensity, possibly. BUT beginners are less prone to CNS fatigue which is probably the main reason why overtraining is so bad.

Also, the blanket statement "If you work the same muscles on consecutive days, you're overtraining" was made. There was nothing about "beginners working the same muscle..." or "inexperienced people shouldn't...", it was just stated like it was fact, which it obviously is not!

Same for... "recovery period takes 48 hours, so if you work them again before the 48 hours is up, you're not actually giving your muscles the time to grow". Well intentioned, but again misleading. Some of the best beginner programs out there have you training the same muscles 3 and 4x a week with 24 hour breaks (think Starting Strength and Bill Starr's 5x5). So again, saying the above could easily lead an inexperienced person to believe that those programs don't work, when in fact they're probably amongst the best things a beginning lifter could do.

The biggest difference that I see between experienced (and I'm talking about people who've dedicated time to learning proper form and try to do it on every set and every rep) and inexperienced gym goers is that the newbs are all over the place during their sets. The movement patterns haven't been hardwired so some reps look nothing like others. I've seen people touch in 8 different places on a 10 rep set of bench presses, curls where the arms are all over the place, not thru a specific weakness, but bad co-ordination.

The faster the movement patterns can be learned and the more consistency that can be achieved during different lifts, the faster that progress can be made. It's for that reason that I think multiple training sessions per week focusing on the same movement patterns and muscle groups is neccessary.

g'em

^^ good points.

Hanley wrote: »

The faster the movement patterns can be learned and the more consistency that can be achieved during different lifts, the faster that progress can be made. It's for that reason that I think multiple training sessions per week focusing on the same movement patterns and muscle groups is neccessary.

Nicely said. So do we assume that everyone is learning those movement patterns correctly? And if not, how does that get corrected? Again, how do we get around making blanket statements? Or do we??

What assumptions is it reasonable for us to make?

I think I'm going to split this from the thread, there's some important points here that need to be hammered out given the number of new posters who'll be around the forum in the coming weeks...

Colm_OReilly

I might as well throw this out as general advice

1. Technique
2. Consistency
3. Intensity

This is how beginners should train. Invest the time getting the balance, coordination, accuracy parts down of the movement at "light" weights. Then make sure you're getting the technique down each and every time. Then, start ramping the intensity up until the point at which technique is beginning to break down. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Unfortunately, people want to lift heavy, or run far/fast. So they amp up the weight, do it wrong, and get injured. If you're lacking depth in your squat, keep squatting with a manageable weight until you start breaking parallel. Don't up the weight and do quarter squats.

As far as Hanley's recommendation for repeating exercises, I would be for it if it's technique work. You can practice the Oly lifts with a pvc pipe everyday without any detrimental effects. We've been doing the Burgener Warm Up out at CF because our athletes were having trouble with the lifts. Even just with the pvc pipe we've noticed a great improvement in their kinesthic awareness and technique, which has transfered over to the WoDs.

Hanley

Some more good points there by Colm. Very Rippetoe-esque!!

I'm reading a translated version of Boris Sheiko's book at the moment and he discusses all of this in quite a bit of detail.

Here's a passage that I think has some very good points...

Boris Sheiko wrote:

Very often the youth overestimate their capabilities, they have very high sense of rivalry, on every workout they try to lift the maximum weight, which can cause trauma. One more important aspect, it is better to have the youth in a group of the same age or with a difference of one year (13-14 years or 14-15 years). The trainer should always remember that during the time that the execution technique of the classical exercises is learned, the important thing is not the weight of the bar, but the number of the repetitions in an approach.

It is known fact that learning the technique is useful with an apparatus of a medium weight. As the sportsman masters the exercise and improves his whole physical condition. The weight of the bar gradually increases. Either strong or weak irritants are not optimal and the most favorable in forming relative reflexes. Only medium load can successfully strengthen the effective forming of movement in exercise structure and favor better development of special physical class, which are essential for lifting the bar with the maximum weight.

When training beginners/novices, the workouts are measured in NBL's (number of barbell lifts), not the intensity of the weight lifted. Primarily for the reasons stated above.

The medium weights that he refers to are ones in the 70-80% range. The reason for this is that with the powerlifitng movements you need a certain degree of weight to actually e able to get a "feel" for it. Personally I've always founded just plain bar work for powerlifting form junk because it's nothing like what you'll experience when you start t move up in weight.

For the olympic movments empty bar/PVC pipe work is ultra important. The learning porcess is so much more complicated and there's certain little nuances that you just won't pick up if you have to give ANY thought to the weight you're using.

rubadub

I was thinking of putting some PVC pipe on my chinning bar for pullups, I can put 2x6" bits on so it can be put aside. Do you think this would benefit grip strength/forearms.

What do you guys think of "greasing the groove" as per pavel tsatsouline, i.e. submaximal workouts. I am more interested in hypertrophy and wonder if it really just adds strength, or would the resultant strength enable more hypertrophy in the long run.

If I was to switch to greasing the groove methods for a month or so I might give my body a bit of a shock, and would be lifting heavier afterwards which would result in more muscle growth. e.g. if I did 2month GTG, 4months 8-12reps, instead of 6months 8-12reps I might be bigger & stronger after the 2/4month routine.

Pherekydes

What's good for experienced weight-training athletes and powerlifters will not apply to beginners. You only make gains during the recovery period. The recovery period will vary from person to person, obviously. An experienced trainer will recover in a much shorter period than a beginner. I think that was the original point made on the other thread.

AARRRGH

I find that overtraining does effect me. I get tired and can't train as effectively as usual. If I take an extra day or two off, eat and sleep well, I'm back to normal.

Note during my training I'd always be eating and sleeping well, so it's not other factors influencing how I feel.

I reckon everyone is different.

Roper

I think people should draw a very distinct line between the ACTUAL condition of over-training as found in athletes and high-intensity trainers and "tiredness" which affects the average gym-goer.

Much like some of the common injury terms, (a guy who uses the threadmill maybe twice a year told me a few weeks ago that he had "shin splints"! ie., he had sore legs) over-training has become an easy figure of speech to use when talking about average post-workout fatigue experienced by all. Over training is mostly experienced in the central nervous and immune systems. Not through muscle soreness. I've lost count of the amount of times people who train with me twice a week come to me and say "sorry I missed training last week, I think I over trained..." They only ever say that once...

If you are training 3 times a week and on two of those days you do squats and find on the second day you're legs are tired, thats not over-training, that's just bad scheduling.

There's over-training and there's tiredness. It is very hard to over train, but very easy to train, get tired and then fail to eat enough and not get enough sleep. That leads to tiredness. Professional terms get bandied around gyms and just add to the excuse list. A few real life ones, with my interpretations beside them:

"Might give it a miss tonight, I feel a tightness in my hamstring" (My leg is a bit sore, could probably warm up and be okay)
"Took last week off cos I think I overtrained" (I worked hard, I felt tired the next day.)
"I can't run, I have shin splints" (I ran on the concrete in my new Nike Shox, my legs were sore afterwards. Who would have thunk? Well, I won't be making that mistake again!)
"My knee is sore, I think it's my ACL" (Watching Sky Sports has given me the expertise of a knee surgeon, so I'm not training tonight)

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

I think people should draw a very distinct line between the ACTUAL condition of over-training as found in athletes and high-intensity trainers and "tiredness" which affects the average gym-goer.

Much like some of the common injury terms, (a guy who uses the threadmill maybe twice a year told me a few weeks ago that he had "shin splints"! ie., he had sore legs) over-training has become an easy figure of speech to use when talking about average post-workout fatigue experienced by all. Over training is mostly experienced in the central nervous and immune systems. Not through muscle soreness. I've lost count of the amount of times people who train with me twice a week come to me and say "sorry I missed training last week, I think I over trained..." They only ever say that once...

If you are training 3 times a week and on two of those days you do squats and find on the second day you're legs are tired, thats not over-training, that's just bad scheduling.

There's over-training and there's tiredness. It is very hard to over train, but very easy to train, get tired and then fail to eat enough and not get enough sleep. That leads to tiredness. Professional terms get bandied around gyms and just add to the excuse list. A few real life ones, with my interpretations beside them:

"Might give it a miss tonight, I feel a tightness in my hamstring" (My leg is a bit sore, could probably warm up and be okay)
"Took last week off cos I think I overtrained" (I worked hard, I felt tired the next day.)
"I can't run, I have shin splints" (I ran on the concrete in my new Nike Shox, my legs were sore afterwards. Who would have thunk? Well, I won't be making that mistake again!)
"My knee is sore, I think it's my ACL" (Watching Sky Sports has given me the expertise of a knee surgeon, so I'm not training tonight)

What a f*cking post. Good sir, I do salute you!!

Leon11

Roper, spot on. Tiredness is not over training. Over training is a condition usually found in top athletes whose ability to recover from training decreases thus affecting their performance.

Doing 7 days a week in the gym ain't gonna kill you provided your eating well. I'm pretty sure there's body-builders and power lifters who lift more than once a day 5-6 days a week.

Racing Flat

Overtraining certainly exists and not only in elite athletes - can happen to anyone who runs energy supplies down too low by training too much in relation to the amount of recovery/calories they get in. The last bit is the important bit - plenty people train twice a day and don't get 'overtrained' but this is probably because they replenish energy stores sufficiently and get sufficient rest. I'm familiar with this in relation to running, but I imagine it applies to all training. Symptoms are reduced sleep, going to bed later and later every night (ever notice that, how when you're training very hard, you seem to stay up later and later every night flicking the TV - you have been warned;)!), change in appetite, reduced libido, fatigue, irritability among others (Ref Lore of Running, Tim Noakes). All elite long distance runners (and by that I mean the top 5 or 6 runners in every athletics club in the country, not just the 5 or 6 who run for Ireland) run twice a day, but hopefully most of them don't suffer from overtraining regularly. It's important to know your body and recognise the signs. It is advised to get into the habit of checking your resting pulse first thing every morning before you get up. It should be much the same every morning if you are fit. If it is 5 beats more than average one morning, then it is a sign that you are getting run down, so you should rest from training or at least go a bit easier. With this you'll usually be back to normal within a day or two but if you train through it you may well get further run down, so you will be susceptible to infection and so may get a cold and miss more training, so better listen to the body. It's training too hard at these times that is particularly likely to end in overtraining. I read somewher once that when amateur athletes were asked why they would like to be professional they answered - to have more time to train, but what the professionals say is that being professional means they have more time to rest - you can only train so much. So by all means train hard, but make sure you replensih the body and listen to it.
But I also completely agree that most people who think they are overtraining are probably just training incorrectly, or not getting appropriate recovery, just tired, have post training soreness/fatigue/doms or are looking for an excuse not to train.

entropi

pa daly wrote: »

Is it true that muscles do not grow in the gym but through rest and eating???

Therefore what is considered enough rest to maximise muscle growth.

Or as gem pointed out is it different strokes for different folks? Depending how long you have been lifting..

Yes it's true, your muscles will increase in size after an appropriate workout AFTER you leave the gym. Thats when they have microtears and have the capacity to grow. Eating soon after your session is over, with appropriate foods will replenish the glycogen stores in your muscles and liver, helping them increase. Preferably, as what i've been taught, is that you should eat within 2hours to maximise the process, and recovery for around 12-24 hrs is enough for the regular gym goer. Eat Right, Drink enough fluids, replenish electrolytes if needed and getting a good nights sleep should be enough.

As said before on this board, working different areas would be a good idea for example: chest+traps, deltoids+lats and arms 1 session, recover for a day, then back, abs+core and legs next session, recover for a day and an all over session on the 3rd day, that's if you plan on 3 days a week working out.

Of course G'em would be right also, she is far more experienced than me at this, different people could have different recovery times, and could have schedules that allow them appropriate rest periods also.

dessie21

I have been competing in various sports over the years, at a high level in some and this is what my experience of 'overtraining' is.

It is very difficult for the average gym-goer to achieve a state of overtraining most people simply get a minor injury that puts them out of action for a short i.e. their body makes them take a forced break or become psychologically 'overtrained' i.e. because they are not working towards say a competitive event the motivation or intensity is just not going to be there to push your body to the very edge. Also the time required to overtrain is more than most people even have to dedicate to going to the gym. Your not going to overtrain in a week.

Conversely advanced powerlifter's seem to have a more sytematic approach to their training in relation to intensity with 1rm's in the same exercise done maybe every few weeks. Which aids recovery. I have seen many top powerlifter's comment how as the get closer to their maximum absolute strength it takes them much longer to recover from a max effort in a squat or deadlift than when their numbers where lower.

In relation to Hanley's comment on Westside Barbell. From what I know of their methods it involves only two basically ME days with a DE and RE day. With the ME exercises rotated every 2 weeks for advanced lifters to prevent stagnation and overtraining? (correcct me if I'm wrong) they also seem to sub a lot of competition lifts for assistance type lifts e.g. gm's and box squats for squats only competition squatting actually in comps and deadlifting maybe once a month to prevent cns fatigue and overtraining the lower back. I believe Andy Bolton only trains 3 days a week whereas Bulgarian Oly lifters train I think three times a day so I suppose it down to a number of factors such as conditioning, genetics (I hate to mention it) etc.

It seems to me that under conditions where its possible i.e. enough time and motivation beginners seem to ovetrain on volume whereas advanced trainees on lifting too heavy too often. Oh yeah and it seems also dependent and drug-free vs. drug using athletes and steroids effect on recovery.

Does Sheiko not approach this with different programmes depending on the level the trainee is at?

Just my 2 cents

Hanley

dessie21 wrote: »

In relation to Hanley's comment on Westside Barbell. From what I know of their methods it involves only two basically ME days with a DE and RE day. With the ME exercises rotated every 2 weeks for advanced lifters to prevent stagnation and overtraining? (correcct me if I'm wrong) they also seem to sub a lot of competition lifts for assistance type lifts e.g. gm's and box squats for squats only competition squatting actually in comps and deadlifting maybe once a month to prevent cns fatigue and overtraining the lower back. I believe Andy Bolton only trains 3 days a week whereas Bulgarian Oly lifters train I think three times a day so I suppose it down to a number of factors such as conditioning, genetics (I hate to mention it) etc.

WSBB train with 4 core session as week, plus recovery and extra workouts from time to time. 2 max effort days, one upper and one lower, 2 dynamic method days, again 1 upper and 1 lower. Each day the main lift is followed up by supplementary (to drive the core lift up) and assitance work (for hypertrophy and strength gains).

ME movements are ones which train the muscles and CNS in a similar way to how the comp lifts are preformed, but different enough so that they can be training intensely each week while not over training and still setting PRs. For the advanced guys ME exercises are rotated weekly.

That's the basics of the system and tbh I have no idea what they actually do in the Westside gym itself. We only know the basics and what's been done in the past, it's a constantly evolving system and one which is added to and taken away from all the time. As Louie says, if you're not training with them in Columbus Ohio then you're not doing Westside.

As for Andy Bolton, he trains 3x a week. But with massively high volume. He squats and deadlifts on one day, and follows it up with leg and bench assistance (leg curls, presses, extenstions etc) the next day. I believe he only does one bench day.

As for the Bulgarians, they've been known to train 5-6x a day 4-6x a week. The sessions might only last 30-60 mins at at time tho.

It seems to me that under conditions where its possible i.e. enough time and motivation beginners seem to ovetrain on volume whereas advanced trainees on lifting too heavy too often. Oh yeah and it seems also dependent and drug-free vs. drug using athletes and steroids effect on recovery.

Does Sheiko not approach this with different programmes depending on the level the trainee is at?

Just my 2 cents

It's funny, if you listen to the guys over at Elite, the most often observed thing by them is that the natural guys train with MORE volume than the juicers. Counter-intuitive, but that seems to be what they're all saying.

Sheiko uses different general outlines for the different classes of lifters (novice, rated sports men, master/candidates for master of sports, sports mastery and international sportsmen.)

Generally the more inexperienced train with 3x a week cycles, while the MS/CMS's are on a 4 day rotation sometimes training 2x a day, and the sports masters train 4-5x a week with 2 sessions per day most of the time.

dessie21

Hanley wrote: »

It's funny, if you listen to the guys over at Elite, the most often observed thing by them is that the natural guys train with MORE volume than the juicers. Counter-intuitive, but that seems to be what they're all saying.

Thats seems to be the story with WS alright can't be sure ATM though! but I'd hazard that they are simply modifying their existing methods as the template they base it on Russian guy begins with a V can't think of his name it seems fairly strict but Louie does like breaking the mould.

In relation to the point above that does seem the general consensus on elitefts alright but I still think it is still possible to train with more volume when 'on' due to the improved recovery but I think their point is to increase intensity and decrease volume to facilitate the increased muscle growth.

The Bulgarians are just born to lift like that freaks of nature!

Hanley

dessie21 wrote: »

Thats seems to be the story with WS alright can't be sure ATM though! but I'd hazard that they are simply modifying their existing methods as the template they base it on Russian guy begins with a V can't think of his name it seems fairly strict but Louie does like breaking the mould.

In relation to the point above that does seem the general consensus on elitefts alright but I still think it is still possible to train with more volume when 'on' due to the improved recovery but I think their point is to increase intensity and decrease volume to facilitate the increased muscle growth.

The Bulgarians are just born to lift like that freaks of nature!

Zatsiorsky (Vladimir) is the guy I beleive. They also base alot their work off Mel Stiff's Supertraining, and the number of lifts above 90% is calculated using Prilepin's chart.

Hanley

I literally just read this post. It made me lol cos it fits in so nicely here

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=64384&tid=3

Racing Flat

Hanley,
Can't remember if it was on this thread or another, but you mentioned somewhere that you dread running but need to do this sometime soon? I'm not surprised you hate running if you are going for Irish/European lifting records. You must be full of hypertrophied Type 2B muscle fibres as opposed to skinny Type 1s. So as you know you're not designed/suited to it. But maybe it's the type of running you are doing? Maybe rather than just jogging you should join a sprinters group and do the running training with them - that type of power running should be more up your street and may also meet your goals, ie the reason you want to run in first place?

dessie21

If your interested in doing some sprint work Hanley I used to sprint at a reasonably high level and I'm also in the same boat as you looking to break some powerlifting records and win some comps. If you want to meet up for a session sometime just PM me. You train in Herc's so Irishtown would probably be the closest track to you.

Hanley

Racing Flat wrote: »

Hanley,
Can't remember if it was on this thread or another, but you mentioned somewhere that you dread running but need to do this sometime soon? I'm not surprised you hate running if you are going for Irish/European lifting records. You must be full of hypertrophied Type 2B muscle fibres as opposed to skinny Type 1s. So as you know you're not designed/suited to it. But maybe it's the type of running you are doing? Maybe rather than just jogging you should join a sprinters group and do the running training with them - that type of power running should be more up your street and may also meet your goals, ie the reason you want to run in first place?

The main reason I wanted to run was for the cardio and weightloss aspect of it. I was always quite quick over 60ish meters. I played alot of soccer and GAA at a relatively high level when I was younger and I was always as fast if not faster than the other guys on the team, even tho I was 1-2 stone heavier (I was quite a blocky kid!!)

Doing HIIT and sprint work while trying to squat, deadlift and do all the various assitance work that goes with it is especially hard. Also the fact that I'm 16 stone at this stage and not that light on my feet leaves my legs and in particular my IT bands really beat up after running ya know...?

Sprint training is actually something I consdiered but tbh i think I might almost be too old for it (I'm 21) and I wouldn't start training seriously for a sport that I know I couldn't do well in...

Racing Flat

Alright, when you said you hated running I assumed you meant jogging. 21 is not too old!!!! And I think you could go along to the sprint training, purley as a means of a cardio workout/weight loss, do the bits that suit you, - ie don't go with the intention of competing at that sport but if the training goes well, maybe you could start competing (ie I hear what you're saying about not wanting to train seriously at a sport that you may not do well at). But 21 is certainly not too old to give the training a go. you could probably teach the sprinters a thing or two about what weights they should be doing to improve their power and sprinting...

dessie21

You may also be interested to know Hanley that I hit a 200kg squat to parallel at 70kg when I was at my height of sprinting. If you do a DE day it is useful to throw in a session of maybe 60m for improving explosiveness and fat burning. Andy Bolton was a junior sprinter at one stage before he became 160kg