Where are the .NET developers???

mick.fr

There is a huge huge demand for .NET developers with ASP and SQL skills.
So huge that I have decided to hire one.

So I am looking for one lol and no luck so far, I have noticed everybody was looking for one as well, not even in Ireland, but also in UK, France etc.

And companies are paying BIG bucks. In UK, I have seen an offer for 500 pounds a day, and the guy just need to have a couple of years experience on .NET and SQL.

.NET is very popular though, it is not like an unknown language, it is very powerful etc.
So I am a bit surprised by the lack of developers in this area.

Any thoughts on this?

Where should I look for one in your opinion, US, Poland, Russia?

BostonB

Exactly how are working out theres this huge demand? That said everyone I know works in this area (myself included) and developers do seem to be picky about the roles they take. I've not heard of people offering amazing conditions or crazy salaries yet. Then I've not been keeping an eye on things lately, as I'm happy where I am. We've found it hard to get people, we've a few Polish and Indian guys working with us.

monosharp

OP it depends what you mean by .NET ?

.NET is a framework. C#, VB.NET,ASP.NET etc

I for example wouldn't have much of a clue of ASP.NET but I'd be more then capable of C# development and as a matter of fact, any Java programmer would be capable of C# development with the most minimal of learning curves.

VB.NET is the half-borted son of VB and should die ASAP.

.NET is very popular though, it is not like an unknown language, it is very powerful etc.
So I am a bit surprised by the lack of developers in this area.

OP even though I've used it and I will admit there are many good things about it, i really don't think its as good as you or the hype has being stating. The .NET framework for example is the dictionary definition of bloatware. I mean its huge and do the benefits really outweigh the disadvantages ? Not in my opinion they don't.

Can I ask why you think its such a good idea for your company/job ?

Is it for website design ? IMO go with PHP and/or Java.

Actually I have another point/question but I'll leave it open for others to answer because I don't know the answer.

With different versions of .NET doesn't it change to the point where Code written for the 1.x framework needs to be rewritten/edited to be compiled on the 2.x framework ?

I know myself that I did a lot of C# development on 1.x of the framework and I did the same amount on the Open source implementation of .NET (mono) http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page

But I never had to change code because I was always using the same version while I was coding.

OP -> I know there's plenty of courses in the country that do .NET, especially Computer Science courses would do C# (which imo is a mistake if its at the expense of Java/C++) but I'm sure if you look for graduates you'll find someone. Maybe with f-all experience but still ...

BostonB

Most of our .Net Developers (we do a bit of everything VB.Net, C#, ASP.Net etc) came from mixed Java, VB, Cobol backgrounds. None had any .Net experience initially.

monosharp wrote: »

...
With different versions of .NET doesn't it change to the point where Code written for the 1.x framework needs to be rewritten/edited to be compiled on the 2.x framework ? ...

I'm still learning .Net myself, but for what its worth, ours needed a bit of tweaking, but nothing major in our projects. Probably depends on the project. Our stuff is quite simple tbh.

DublinWriter

mick.fr wrote: »

Where should I look for one in your opinion, US, Poland, Russia?

Have you tried contacting any of the umpteen agencies in Dublin?

What is it you're trying to develop and why does it have to use ASP & .Net?

mick.fr

I am not trying to develop anything myself, I want to hire one to place him/her on customer sites with .NET projects.
Mainly these ASPX applications would be in C# with Microsoft backoffice servers such as SQL with SharePoint frontend.
Regarding contacting the agencies, as I said I have seen a lot, and a lot are struggling to find .NET developers.
On UK job websites, you can actually see a lot of Irish job agencies advertising.

And regarding Monosharp comment, although C# code structure looks a lot like Java, I really don't think any Java developer would be able to write C# coe right away. His/Her background would help for sure, but still.

monosharp

mick.fr wrote: »

And regarding Monosharp comment, although C# code structure looks a lot like Java, I really don't think any Java developer would be able to write C# coe right away. His/Her background would help for sure, but still.

I'm not saying there wouldn't be a learning curve but regardless of what a Programmer knows or doesn't know, going to a new job will nearly always involve a learning curve.

Take my last job, R&D, doing new stuff all the time and 3/4 of my time was actually spent learning about the stuff before developing and that included new programming languages.

My basic point is simple, Java and C# are so close that the differences from a programmers point of view are minuscule. i.e > If i'm doing something with x (e.g Strings) I'll nearly always going to google/open a book on a relevant page etc on x (Strings) anyways so I'm going to do it with C# as well.

If a programmer knows Java he knows C#, if he knows C++ he knows Java and C#, if he knows C he knows All

Mick the learning curve should be absolutely minimal is my point.

BostonB

If your not prepared to let someone come up to speed, then just hire a contractor. Thats get around that. Of course if no one will hire junior developers or train them up, or give them time to come up to speed, then eventually it will reduce the pool of skilled people. Leading to a skill shortage or just outsourcing the work elsewhere. Along with other factors, that could a why its getting hard to get people with the right skills.

dazberry

monosharp wrote: »

I'm not saying there wouldn't be a learning curve but regardless of what a Programmer knows or doesn't know, going to a new job will nearly always involve a learning curve.

Most companies accept a learning curve to say become familiar with a codebase, or with certain business practices, but the constant tends to be the development tools. Regardless of the transfer of skills, the market assesses skill by experience - if you don't have the right experience then it is perceived that you don't have the skill.

I know a few people who have done a fair bit of C#/dotNet training - but they don't work in C# jobs so agencies won't even talk to them - even thou' they have 10+ years experience - its in the wrong tools apparently.

D.

BostonB

I would say the constant isn't the development tools. MS keeps changing them anyway. However programming principles and practices are the same regardless. Agencies or HR haven't a clue what they are doing when it comes to development issues. As this stupid policy highlights.

dazberry

BostonB wrote: »

I would say the constant isn't the development tools.

Sorry, I meant in reference to a particular job requirements - for instance a requirement for C# is generally an absolute, you either have the C# experience or you don't, there's seldom any middle ground or partially exchangable skills.

Having said that I went to a C# interview last year because of my Delphi multi-threaded experience - but that's more the exception than the rule.

D.

AARRRGH

dazberry wrote: »

I know a few people who have done a fair bit of C#/dotNet training - but they don't work in C# jobs so agencies won't even talk to them - even thou' they have 10+ years experience - its in the wrong tools apparently.

That's because agencies are sales people with zero technical skills/understanding.

A guy I work with just ported something from Delphi to C#. It didn't take him long at all to do this, even though he has never worked in a C# environment before. I think a lot of people seriously overestimate how long it takes a developer to jump from one language to another...

In a previous job I had to take over a large suite of Perl scripts. I had never worked with Perl before, yet I was up and running within a week. There is no way an agency would have considered me for that role.

monosharp

dublindude wrote: »

That's because agencies are sales people with zero technical skills/understanding.

.....

Amen to that.

For example, my own degree course. It consisted of no C (biggest mistake ever) but for my work placement I was really thrown into the deep end with a company doing Java -> C Cryptographic calls through JNI.

Ok it was a stretch because going from Java to C is nowhere near as easy as going from C -> Java or C++ -> Java or etc etc.

And JNI ? What the hell was that ? linking libraries ? native code ? pointers ?My college course was f-all use to me specifically because they had jumped on the OOP bandwagon years before and didn't teach you f-all about how code actually works. (Huge huge mistake in most/all courses in this country ? )

But I soldiered on and the transition was not that bad at all once I got a little into C.

What recriters and HR and a lot of business end guys don't seem to understand is that at the end of the day code is code (for the most part). If you know C, going to just about anything else thats out there at the moment is a miniscule learning curve. (Obviously I don't mean something like COBOL etc, thats another story)

But recruiters etc seem to think that the difference between a programmer with C experience and a job requiring Java, C#, C++ etc etc is the same as the difference between lets say an aeronautical engineer and a car mechanic. It just isn't so.

And even taken to the extreme e.g a guy who knows his COBOL and has being doing it for x number of years. He's going to be able to slip into C etc without too much fuss.

This madness of "experience in x, y and z required" is simply ignorant most of the time.

btw anyone else ever see those job ads where experience on Visual Studio or some other IDE in language x is a requirement ? What a joke.

What are we know ? Visual Studio experts ? Oh we can't program C++ on that IDE because the compile button is in a slightly different place. ffs we're software engineers!

DublinWriter

monosharp wrote: »

dublindude wrote: »

This madness of "experience in x, y and z required" is simply ignorant most of the time.

btw anyone else ever see those job ads where experience on Visual Studio or some other IDE in language x is a requirement ? What a joke.

Don't blame the agencies for that. They just go out and look for what ever skills are requested of them.

Companies don't want to take a chance with a new recruit and will always want them to hit the ground running when they employ them.

In fairness though, I've seen a number of ads looking for VB6 people with cross training into VB.Net, but as the OP said, this might be down to desperation at the lack of .Net people out there.

Things will even up eventually thanks to the laws of supply and demand. I remember silly money being offered for Java programmers in the late 90's.

monosharp

DublinWriter wrote: »

monosharp wrote: »

Don't blame the agencies for that. They just go out and look for what ever skills are requested of them.

Companies don't want to take a chance with a new recruit and will always want them to hit the ground running when they employ them.

Yeah but surely to God stuff like the above is coming from a completely non-technical guy/girl in that company.

Its not the same as asking for a photoshop expert vs a image manipulation expert (trained on the gimp or something similiar).

A C++ programmer is a C++ programmer, the IDE is absolutely irrelevant. I mean in fairness, who would put "proficiency in Microsoft Visual Studio, Visual C++" on their CV instead of "proficiency in C++" ?

Honestly, a new IDE shouldn't even involve any kind of learning curve whatsoever to a decent programmer.

A text editor, a compiler and a debugger or a habit of throwing in printf's everywhere and away you go.

AARRRGH

It's hard to get tech people in general at the moment - from support to development.

For example, boards.ie have been trying to get someone for about two months now and seem to be getting nowhere, I was just speaking to an employer who can't get PHP developers, and the place I work is having an awful time getting anyone at all.

This might sound outrageous but... is it possible the IT industry has matured, resulting in people staying in their jobs longer than they used to?

theaviator

I am a VB .NET developer and do nixers. Is it one particular project that you want?

ntlbell

dublindude wrote: »

It's hard to get tech people in general at the moment - from support to development.

For example, boards.ie have been trying to get someone for about two months now and seem to be getting nowhere, I was just speaking to an employer who can't get PHP developers, and the place I work is having an awful time getting anyone at all.

This might sound outrageous but... is it possible the IT industry has matured, resulting in people staying in their jobs longer than they used to?

I was jumping all over the place because the money kept getting better, now everyone seems to be paying the same so i stay put.

dazberry

dublindude wrote: »

This might sound outrageous but... is it possible the IT industry has matured, resulting in people staying in their jobs longer than they used to?

I wonder (no stats on this) is the average age of development staff getting older - and if so then are other factors coming into play, especially if you factoring in mortgage and childcare etc., flexitime, 4 day weeks, home working and worklife balance issues...???

D.

AARRRGH

Yeah I think that could defo be a factor. Where I work, the average age is early to mid 30's. A good few of them have kids.

mick.fr

The lack of profiles available is a general issue in Europe.
I remember the Computer Scope special pages on training etc a couple of months ago. Anyway all EU countries are affected, this is the reason why it is still possible to get a working Visa to highly skilled people from the far east or west.

I know for instance an Irish company organized a recruitment day in Poland a little while ago and they brought 2 guys back from it. Good guys.
The main issues they had was not really about money, those guys are paid over 50k, this was about the lack of skills and profiles on this Irish market.

BostonB

For a while a few years back IT people where treated poorly in a lot of companies and a lot of junior people got out to do easier things that earned better money. (remember all those long hours and weekends?) Those that are left are more experienced, older and wiser. If they are in a good job, or have a line of contracts thats working well for them, its going to take a lot of incentive to prise them away from their comfort zone.

mick.fr

Just another example of daily rate published the last week. From Jobserve, Contract in London.

Senior C# Developer - Banking - C++, SQL Server, C#
London £650-£700/Day + Competitive (Yeah hell yeah it surely is lol)

Senior C# Developer - Banking - C++, SQL Server, C# - Currently seeking a talented Microsoft developer to work within equity derivatives business to develop and implement trading systems Senior C# Developer - Banking - C++, C# and SQL Server candidates will have: Significant software engineering experience preferably gained in a financial markets environment. The desire to work within a fast paced business creating unique IT solutions. The ability to manage conflicting deadlines and ensure work is successfully delivered. A firm understanding of RDBMS and specifically Microsoft SQL Server 2000 and above. Demonstrable experience VB.NET and/or C# and a solid understanding of .NET Framework 2.0 Significant C++ experience with demonstrated skills with Windows 2000/XP and Real Time systems

DublinWriter

mick.fr wrote: »

Just another example of daily rate published the last week. From Jobserve, Contract in London.

First of all that rate is not indicative of rates in Greater London/the Home Counties.

The contract you quoted at £700 stg per day is working for a bank in the City of London (i.e. the square mile).

Rates are high in that particular part of the world because it's a very expensive part of London to live in. If you can face the daily horror that is the Tube and can stomach working in such a high-pressure environment then go for it.

DublinWriter

dazberry wrote: »

I wonder (no stats on this) is the average age of development staff getting older

Very much so, and even moreso when I worked in London in 2001. A few of the PL/SQL programmers were in their early 50's.

Generally the older programmers stuck with what they knew and expanded in their particular area. Very few older programmers I know now are looking at .net and see themselves spending the remainder of their careers nursing legacy systems.

lynchie

DublinWriter wrote: »

First of all that rate is not indicative of rates in Greater London/the Home Counties.

The contract you quoted at £700 stg per day is working for a bank in the City of London (i.e. the square mile).

Rates are high in that particular part of the world because it's a very expensive part of London to live in. If you can face the daily horror that is the Tube and can stomach working in such a high-pressure environment then go for it.

Used to do that for a year... Flying to London on a Monday morning on the first flight.. back to Dublin on Friday afternoon.. Staying in a hotel all week... Even with the expenses of flights / accommodation / hotel.. there was still good money to be made in it. Granted it was all work / sleep but was good experience to do for a year. Wouldnt do it again though..

DublinWriter

lynchie wrote: »

Used to do that for a year... Flying to London on a Monday morning on the first flight.. back to Dublin on Friday afternoon.. Staying in a hotel all week... Even with the expenses of flights / accommodation / hotel.. there was still good money to be made in it. Granted it was all work / sleep but was good experience to do for a year. Wouldnt do it again though..

Me too, but I did it in two-week blocks.

There *was* good money to be made in it when you were being paid in Sterling and the Euro was on the floor coughing up blood.

I wouldn't do it again as I was on a rolling three-month contract and couldn't/wouldn't get rented accommodation as nearly all rentals in the UK are for a minimum of 12 months.

I ended up working a year and a half on that particular arrangement. For those of you who think that living out of a hotel is glamourous, just try living in a Travelodge for a year and a half!

When I worked in Brussels later it was a lot easier because as with most European cities you could rent 'business apartments' by the month.

the_syco

mick.fr wrote: »

£650-£700/Day

There is your reason why people aren't going for it. It's per day. Most work now is contract, and if you have a wife, kids & mortgage, you want something steady to pay the rent and bills. When you're young or single, you can do the nixers, but once you have responsibilities, you'll stick with what you have.

It may be more, but 3 months down the line, the less paying job will still be paying you.

DublinWriter

the_syco wrote: »

There is your reason why people aren't going for it. It's per day. Most work now is contract, and if you have a wife, kids & mortgage, you want something steady to pay the rent and bills.
...
It may be more, but 3 months down the line, the less paying job will still be paying you.

I know plenty of I.T. contractors with families.

Of course the rate quoted is per day, but a contract is negotiated for a fixed period, usually 3 months to a year and you'd be employed every working day of that contract.

No disrespect, but you really need your head examined if you are adopting the civil-service mentality that a permanent job is for life in this day and age.

Sure we have better employment law than the U.S. when it comes to the rights of workers, but no such law will protect you in the event of your company going bust or relocating to Poland.

mick.fr

the_syco wrote: »

There is your reason why people aren't going for it. It's per day. Most work now is contract, and if you have a wife, kids & mortgage, you want something steady to pay the rent and bills. When you're young or single, you can do the nixers, but once you have responsibilities, you'll stick with what you have.

It may be more, but 3 months down the line, the less paying job will still be paying you.

Well, yeah in life there are people getting a permanent position for 2-3k a month and they are happy because it pays the bills, the wife and kids needs, and there are people getting contracts all the year long and they make 5k+ a month.
This is the difference between having an entrepreneur's mind and not.
I have married, 2 kids, been doing this since 2001 and I am still alive.

mick.fr

DublinWriter wrote: »

I know plenty of I.T. contractors with families.

Of course the rate quoted is per day, but a contract is negotiated for a fixed period, usually 3 months to a year and you'd be employed every working day of that contract.

No disrespect, but you really need your head examined if you are adopting the civil-service mentality that a permanent job is for life in this day and age.

Sure we have better employment law than the U.S. when it comes to the rights of workers, but no such law will protect you in the event of your company going bust or relocating to Poland.

+1
A permanent position nowadays means absolutely nothing.

BostonB

mick.fr wrote: »

Well, yeah in life there are people getting a permanent position for 2-3k a month and they are happy because it pays the bills, the wife and kids needs, and there are people getting contracts all the year long and they make 5k+ a month.
This is the difference between having an entrepreneur's mind and not.
I have married, 2 kids, been doing this since 2001 and I am still alive.

Not everyone has the skills to get 5k in a contract. Contracting on a low salary is hard to juggle. Also theres people in permanent roles making 5k and more. So why would they contract? I enjoyed contracting but got out of it when I got a permanent role for more money than I was contracting on. The location suited me too. I'll probably go back contracting when I get bored or something better comes up.

ntlbell

DublinWriter wrote: »

I know plenty of I.T. contractors with families.

Of course the rate quoted is per day, but a contract is negotiated for a fixed period, usually 3 months to a year and you'd be employed every working day of that contract.

No disrespect, but you really need your head examined if you are adopting the civil-service mentality that a permanent job is for life in this day and age.

Sure we have better employment law than the U.S. when it comes to the rights of workers, but no such law will protect you in the event of your company going bust or relocating to Poland.

Maybe if you have very niche skills there is a lot of money to be made in contracting but for most for the "insecurity" the gain isn't all that great.

Take an example of a full time permanent employee in a company for 4-5 years.

He's built up 5 service days so he'll have anything from 25-30 _PAID_ holidays.

Sick pay. (for example my current company pay me in full for up to 6 months and 50% for up to a year of sickness)

Health insurance for himself and family.

Pension contributions (My current job pays 4-1)



No accountancy/Company management fee's

not out of work for any period of time.

not having to look for work every 3/6/12 months

When every thing's matched up the difference isn't that much financially and there's a lot less hassle.

If you have the right skills and the daily rate is right and you're maybe single or have no real responsibilities sure but it's not for everyone

mick.fr

That is the type of advantages that makes employees lazy and less productive.
Everybody should be on contract nowadays, too much morons working as civil servants and in private companies where they are hiding under their desk.

mick.fr

BostonB wrote: »

Also theres people in permanent roles making 5k and more.

Yes sure this is about a good 100.000 euro annually, there are plenty of people like that in Ireland :-)

Now yes sure I agree with you, but most of the time you can certainly make more money working as a contractor in IT, rather than as an employee.

ntlbell

mick.fr wrote: »

That is the type of advantages that makes employees lazy and less productive.
Everybody should be on contract nowadays, too much morons working as civil servants and in private companies where they are hiding under their desk.

It doesn't make me any less productive if anything as I'm treated well I go well above and beyond what I'm suppose to do and the vast majority of people who work here are very happy and work very hard.

There is as many morons out contracting,I've met plenty of them and I've met plenty of them in full time employment.

There's also a lot of gimp's with things like security+ and MCSA who think they're security guru's and talk nonsense on boards.

But we can't blame permanent/contract's on those!

that right mick

dazberry

mick.fr wrote: »

That is the type of advantages that makes employees lazy and less productive.
Everybody should be on contract nowadays, too much morons working as civil servants and in private companies where they are hiding under their desk.

The same could be said of contractors that constantly work short contracts - jump from job to job on foot of being a "contractor" - seldom if ever do repeat work and are really just covering up the fact that they're not really all that good. A large amount of work I have done - both as a contractor in the past and currently as fix-term salaried is picking up the mess left by bad contractors.

Some contractors use the flexibility of contracting for lifestyle choices and what shocked me when we were building our last dev team was the poor quality of people that tried to pass themselves off as contractors - given that there was a very specific reason we were building the team - the technical requirements weren't all that high and the wide range of experience we actually interviewed.

The most difficult problem I experienced was with contractors who consider themselves experts - but find themselves in a team with equal or better expertise - and subsequently refuse to form any sort of citizenship with the existing team and end up working against the team. Its really painful - there's often no talking to these people and the next stop from them is out the door.

In balance having been a contractor - I work with some great contractors now - well one now ex (offered and took perm) and two contractors - they're all great - no egos - no tantrums - and everyone is going in the same direction.

Good people are good people whether they are contractors or perm.

D.

ntlbell

dazberry wrote: »

Good people are good people whether they are contractors or perm.

D.

Amen brother berry.

mick.fr

ntlbell wrote: »

There's also a lot of gimp's with things like security+ and MCSA who think they're security guru's and talk nonsense on boards.

But we can't blame permanent/contract's on those!

that right mick

Rofl still with this old joke of yours.
lol man

mick.fr

Yeah yeah anyway we can't generalize and say employees are lazy bas*** and contractors super champions. This is not true and we know it.
This was not my intention to generalize.

DublinWriter

ntlbell wrote: »

Maybe if you have very niche skills there is a lot of money to be made in contracting but for most for the "insecurity" the gain isn't all that great.

Take an example of a full time permanent employee in a company for 4-5 years.

He's built up 5 service days so he'll have anything from 25-30 _PAID_ holidays.

Sick pay. (for example my current company pay me in full for up to 6 months and 50% for up to a year of sickness)

- Health insurance for himself and family.
- Pension contributions (My current job pays 4-1)
- No accountancy/Company management fee's
- not out of work for any period of time.
- not having to look for work every 3/6/12 months

When every thing's matched up the difference isn't that much financially and there's a lot less hassle.

I would have to totally disagree with you and I don't think that I'd be the only one.

You don't have to employ an accountant, even with a limited company. As a contractor you can submit your accounts yourself.

There's also the added benefit of getting VAT back on business related purchases, you pay less PRSI, you can manage your own pension (there's a LOT to be said for that!), plus you can pay yourself daily milage and subsistance at civil service rates.

Do the maths for yourself. Take the example of a VB .net contractor earning say €400 per day on a one year contract with 240 working days. That's a gross income of €96K. How many VB.net permanent jobs do you know that would pay that kind of salary?

Again, I'd stress the point that a 'permanent' job is permanent in name only. You are really codding yourself if you think being a permanent employee affords you some extra umbrella of security in this day and age in the private sector.

Yes, muppets abound in both the permanent and contractor workforce, but muppet-contractors tend to be shown the door a lot earlier.

The whole sick-pay thing is a bit of a false hope too. OP - you seem to be lucky with your particular arrangement but employers aren't obliged to pay you long term sick pay. You forgot to mention the terms of your sick pay after a year - what's the bets you get zip after that period?

My own private pension has provision for long-term illness and income insurance for the entire period of any long term illness and it's not that expensive. In fact, the company I use for this also markets the same product to permanent employees!

As for the insecurity, if you're good and keep your skills updated, you'll never be out of work. Most contractors will keep money back in case of a dry-spell.

pwd

It would be easy to go from java to c# and so on. However knowing the .net framework is different to knowing c# (or vb.net or whatever) and knowing the .net framework only going to come by using the .net framework.
I have a couple of years experience with it - mainly with asp.net. I remember being amazed at how quickly you could set up - for example - a secure website with user accounts and data access, when I started.
You can get impressive results very quickly with it. It's new enough that most Irish college courses don't teach it, and there is not a large number of people with experience with it (I got my experience by suggesting its use in the project I was working on). So it makes sense that it's a lucrative area.

BostonB

As a developer you don't really have too many expenses and regardless of getting the VAT back you still paying money out with expenses and training etc. Unless you are running a laptop and stationary business on the side.

What would people think you need to earn beyond a permanent salary to make contracting worthwhile. 10k more or in this case 46k more?

pwd

It depends on the individual. I prefer contracting in general to permanent jobs because you tend to be irrelevant to the company politics to a great extent and you are more likely to be able to get a variation in what you work at.

The criticism of vb.net was uninformed. Anything you can do with c# you can do with vb.net with soe very inor exceptions. The reason vb.net staff are generally paid less and less sought after than c# staff is not so much to do with the language as to do with the background of the typical worker. A c# developer is likely to have come from an object oriented background, because of the similarities of c# to oo langauges, especially java. A vb.net developer is more likely to have a functional programming background, with previous experience in a language such as vb6.

ntlbell

DublinWriter wrote: »

I would have to totally disagree with you and I don't think that I'd be the only one.

You don't have to employ an accountant, even with a limited company. As a contractor you can submit your accounts yourself.

There's also the added benefit of getting VAT back on business related purchases, you pay less PRSI, you can manage your own pension (there's a LOT to be said for that!), plus you can pay yourself daily milage and subsistance at civil service rates.

Do the maths for yourself. Take the example of a VB .net contractor earning say €400 per day on a one year contract with 240 working days. That's a gross income of €96K. How many VB.net permanent jobs do you know that would pay that kind of salary?

Again, I'd stress the point that a 'permanent' job is permanent in name only. You are really codding yourself if you think being a permanent employee affords you some extra umbrella of security in this day and age in the private sector.

Yes, muppets abound in both the permanent and contractor workforce, but muppet-contractors tend to be shown the door a lot earlier.

The whole sick-pay thing is a bit of a false hope too. OP - you seem to be lucky with your particular arrangement but employers aren't obliged to pay you long term sick pay. You forgot to mention the terms of your sick pay after a year - what's the bets you get zip after that period?

My own private pension has provision for long-term illness and income insurance for the entire period of any long term illness and it's not that expensive. In fact, the company I use for this also markets the same product to permanent employees!

As for the insecurity, if you're good and keep your skills updated, you'll never be out of work. Most contractors will keep money back in case of a dry-spell.

I wasn't really concentrating on coding as I'm not one, I was really discussing contracting in general.

Managing you're own pension is fine if your someone who capable of doing it but you'll always miss out on the companies contribution. this goes for your tax of course you can do it yourself but the majority of contractors don't and the reason is they don't know how so to be safe they pay these management companies.

It's a bit like saying you do your own DIY and you're thought yourself how to be a solicitor and all this saves you money, who cares, the majority of people still have to pay someone to paint the house.


for example if i put in 400 a month into my pension my job puts 1600 into it. what's that 20kish for doing SFA

I don't see how sick pay is false hope, Last year I missed a lot of work due to a problem I had and had the luxury of being able to take my time not rush back to work get well have my mortgage etc all paid no stress and didn't cost me anything (insurance)


Regardless how good you are what skills you have you can never be sure of work but this goes for all jobs and a bit of a mute point, but if your're going from 3 month to 6 month etc there is the risk that there can be no work during them periods and your holding money back when you shouldn't have to.

Look, I'm not saying contracting is bad, it's not I've done it, but it's not for everyone and it's not all it's cracked up to be as some people make out.

if you're making a good living contracting happy days.