Jesus Camp

Overheal · 31-12-2007 7:58pm #1

Ok I doubt many if any Irish people have caught wind of this documentary made in america called Jesus Camp? Basically, its about evangelical Christians: about actively trying to attempt similarly what Islamics do - by training children from a very young age to be fanatics, willing to die for the cross.

Now, before I continue, I am an atheist, so I am trying to look at this objectively. I remember when i was about 12 and still living in the states I was invited to a halloween party by a friend at his church, and - pretty much yea, the main focus of the party was about signing non-believers up to the church. Reluctant to fill out one of their pledge cards, they pressured me into it and I left discretely

According to Jesus Camp (documentary) - 75% of school children in the USA are evangelists.

"Let me say something about Harry Potter - Warlocks are enemies of god. If it had been in the old testament, Harry would have been put to death!"

Now - theres perhaps just one thing wrong with this statement which I want to challenge Christianity on today:

does God really want [us] to start killing and wage war?
Since when? Because, I got the memo that Christianity was about peace-keeping.

So at this camp, alongside teaching these kids not to turn to sin, and how it can take over their life if they turn to sin they are teaching them its ok to kill people that oppose their belief... particularly Islamics (as most of the children in camp have parents serving in Iraq) ... I find something wrong with that. Teaching a child its ok to let killing Islamics take over their lives?

So I guess the question is: do you believe that we have to turn to killing at all, in order to make 'peace' with Islamics, or any other radical factions that would turn to violence in order to further their faith?

When did God/Jesus ever condone man killing man?

EDIT: cant creationism and evolution just get along!?

BrianCalgary · 31-12-2007 8:59pm

Overheal wrote: »

does God really want [us] to start killing and wage war? !?

No to killing.

We are involved in a spirirual war.

Overheal wrote: »

Since when? Because, I got the memo that Christianity was about peace-keeping.!?

'tis about peacemaking not peace keeping.

Overheal wrote: »

So I guess the question is: do you believe that we have to turn to killing at all, in order to make 'peace' with Islamics, or any other radical factions that would turn to violence in order to further their faith?!?

No we don't. However if a groups or groups is violent then sometimes the only way tpo stop it is through violence.

Was there any other way to stop the holocaust of Germany in the 30's and 40's beyond out and out war?

Overheal wrote: »

When did God/Jesus ever condone man killing man?!?

Only Himself.

Overheal wrote: »

EDIT: cant creationism and evolution just get along!?

Yes they can. I have some Christian friends who will claim that evolution is how God created.

philologos · 31-12-2007 9:06pm

Yes, I've seen it. It's a good insight into some churches in America.

For your second paragraph. I disagree with forcing people or pressuring them into following Christ. However I do support evangelism and for people to get out on the streets and tell people about the Gospel of Christ. That is what Christianity is all about.

God does not want us to wage war. However this is not what was promoted in the documentary either. "Soldiers of God" is used very much in a symbolic manner, it does not mean you pick up a rifle and run into an secular / Jewish / Islamic whatever school or place of worship to murder anybody, or even sign up to war because of that term. If that is the case (not likely, but I'll allow for the possibility), it is a perversion of the Gospel.

Overheal wrote:

So at this camp, alongside teaching these kids not to turn to sin, and how it can take over their life if they turn to sin they are teaching them its ok to kill people that oppose their belief... particularly Islamics (as most of the children in camp have parents serving in Iraq) ... I find something wrong with that. Teaching a child its ok to let killing Islamics take over their lives?

Hang on. When did it mention that all the kids had parents who served in Iraq? This is what I don't understand. As far as I can remember (it was a while ago) this was not mentioned.

Overheal wrote:

So I guess the question is: do you believe that we have to turn to killing at all, in order to make 'peace' with Islamics, or any other radical factions that would turn to violence in order to further their faith?

"Have a turn at killing", that's interesting. But having a turn at killing never ends up in peace. Faith in Christ is not furthered by violating the rules of the Law by which Christ gave us.

If you have seen all of it:

I agree with the guy who runs the radio show, towards the end of it.

It isn't much of a spoiler but I decided to use it anyway ^

Overheal · 01-01-2008 1:57am

it didnt mention it but the ballerina girl near the start of the film is wearing a shirt "My daddy is in the army" and i dont know an serviceman who has not been shipped to Iraq. also, the use of camoflauge at the start of the film at least suggests advocation/support of war by the church group in the film.

PDN · 01-01-2008 10:31am

Overheal wrote: »

it didnt mention it but the ballerina girl near the start of the film is wearing a shirt "My daddy is in the army" and i dont know an serviceman who has not been shipped to Iraq. also, the use of camoflauge at the start of the film at least suggests advocation/support of war by the church group in the film.

What nonsense is this?

One ballerina girl wears a shirt saying "My daddy is in the army" and you use that as a basis for saying, "most of the children in camp have parents serving in Iraq"

Also, the US has about 1.5 million servicemen in total - of which 150,000 are in Iraq. So, instead of saying "most of the children in camp have parents serving in Iraq" - it would have been more accurate to say, "one girl in camp wore a t-shirt that, if correct, indicated that there was a 10% chance that one of her parents might be serving in Iraq).

As for the camouflage - I saw a bunch of teenagers in O'Connell Street yesterday wearing camouflage trousers. Does this mean they were advocating support for a war somewhere?

SubjectSean · 01-01-2008 12:11pm

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the Earth; I have not come to bring peace, but an M4."

Asiaprod · 04-01-2008 1:12pm

SubjectSean wrote: »

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the Earth; I have not come to bring peace, but an M4."

Sorry, the smiley does not cut it. Please do not post such rubbish again, it is against the Charter and will only lead to you getting a one week vacation

Asiaprod · 04-01-2008 1:22pm

Overheal wrote: »

Ok I doubt many if any Irish people have caught wind of this documentary made in america called Jesus Camp? Basically, its about evangelical Christians: about actively trying to attempt similarly what Islamics do - by training children from a very young age to be fanatics, willing to die for the cross.

Those are very strong words. Can you support this fact? Nowhere in any of my study of Islam have I seen any reference to training children in this way. I agree that there are always exceptions to the rule as in the case of fundamentalist groups who are really IMO only out to serve themselves, but blanket statements like this only serve to further mislead what Islam is about. If you cannot support your statement, I would politely suggest you reword your original post.
Thanks.
Asia

SubjectSean · 04-01-2008 3:35pm

Asiaprod wrote: »

Sorry, the smiley does not cut it. Please do not post such rubbish again, it is against the Charter and will only lead to you getting a one week vacation

Smiley does not cut what? Your misunderstanding? My point was that this quote from Jesus may encourage violence in the simple minded. I really don't see how that's against the charter.

Static M.e. · 04-01-2008 3:44pm

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the Earth; I have not come to bring peace, but an M4."

this quote from Jesus

Are you saying "Jesus" said the above?! (M4)

Also an ashiest btw

Sorry just jumped in from the home page, bored at work

SubjectSean · 04-01-2008 3:52pm

Static M.e. wrote: »

Are you saying "Jesus" said the above?!

It's in Matthew 10 and was doubtless put there by a holy warmonger. I updated 'sword' with 'M4'.

Static M.e. · 04-01-2008 3:57pm

Really? Wow.. thats kinda interesting.

Fallen Seraph · 04-01-2008 8:35pm

SubjectSean wrote: »

It's in Matthew 10 and was doubtless put there by a holy warmonger. I updated 'sword' with 'M4'.

In full:

Matthew 10 wrote:

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

It might, however, seem a little less extreme in the context of the next verses:

Matthew 10 wrote:

37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

That said, I still don't *really* get it.

Overheal · 04-01-2008 9:48pm

Asiaprod wrote: »

Those are very strong words. Can you support this fact? Nowhere in any of my study of Islam have I seen any reference to training children in this way. I agree that there are always exceptions to the rule as in the case of fundamentalist groups who are really IMO only out to serve themselves, but blanket statements like this only serve to further mislead what Islam is about. If you cannot support your statement, I would politely suggest you reword your original post.
Thanks.
Asia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

Asiaprod · 05-01-2008 10:11am

Overheal wrote:

youtube]gi-c6lbFGC4

Overheal wrote:

Youtube Video

Thanks, I did indeed watch the video, and watching it a second time makes it no clearer. With the exception of the last song, which noticeably was sung by a "Boy," whom I would expect to see emulating his peers, or maybe, heros even, the rest is nothing extraordinary.

Its been seen in Ireland, and throughout most of the world, with the catholic influence, and in other countries with majority religious bodies' influences, at play in local children's programs, though I will admit, not with quite so much, what would you like to call it, Zeal? Actually, I forgot one, he is also directly related to the video, which primarily deals with the Palestine/Jewish issue, an issue that is not endemic of Islam, but is endemic of that region and its history. His name begins with an H, and he did not like the Jewish race at all. He did similar with the children and he was not Islamic. He used a common tactic to further his cause and reassure, through a brain washed younger generation, that if he should win, no matter the cost, he would have a solid support base. Apply the same tactics to the fundamentalists and you will see where I am coming from.
There was a single reference to Iraq and Bush. So what, I would lay odds that it was required by the financial backers for the video.

Really, thanks for an interesting reply. I am sure you could get a far better answer to this video than mine in another forum I am part of.

Asia

SubjectSean · 05-01-2008 12:13pm

Fallen Seraph wrote: »

That said, I still don't *really* get it.

Me neither, it really makes no sense at all for somebody who clearly turned the other cheek to be saying this. The very early church was totally pacifist. I have this and the carry a sword quote as redactions because of this.

neuro-praxis · 09-01-2008 11:19am

SubjectSean wrote: »

Me neither, it really makes no sense at all for somebody who clearly turned the other cheek to be saying this. The very early church was totally pacifist. I have this and the carry a sword quote as redactions because of this.

Fantastic! In a thread about a documentary, you get to spout this kind of nonsense? What evidence of the early church have you stumbled upon that shows them to be "totally pacifist". You should really share that with the churches.

Totally pacifist is an anachronism in that context. Stating redactionism without evidence is ironically, nothing more than redactionism. If you don't understand something Jesus said that doesn't mean that he couldn't have said it!

Back on topic.
I do think that the movie is deeply troubling. The leaders involved are I think, comparable in some careful way to Islamofascists. But to the OP, it is important to remember that these people are extraordinarily in the minority. This is not brought out in the documentary that glosses from the fact that the subjects are Pentecostal Christians out to "therefore Penetecostal Christianity as a whole" and then out to "so evangelical Christianity..."

Akrasia · 09-01-2008 2:07pm

I noticed that very few of the evangalists on this thread said that they were opposed to this very disturbing evidence of childhood indoctrination. I consider this kind of activity to be child abuse. The children look highly traumatised

PDN · 09-01-2008 6:03pm

Akrasia wrote: »

I noticed that very few of the evangalists on this thread said that they were opposed to this very disturbing evidence of childhood indoctrination. I consider this kind of activity to be child abuse. The children look highly traumatised

I suppose by 'evangalists' you mean evangelicals? Maybe some of us have not said we are opposed to it because we haven't seen the film in question.

Overheal · 10-01-2008 9:25pm

PDN wrote: »

Maybe some of us have not said we are opposed to it because we haven't seen the film in question.

Trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE

I'll let it speak for itself.

more information available at http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

robindch · 10-01-2008 10:10pm

Some DCMA-busting criminal has kindly uploaded what looks like most of Jesus Camp to YouTube in nine parts. Don't know if all the clips link together.

There's plenty of psychological abuse on show in this film, and the carry-on at the start of part six is as gross as anything else.

The Adoration of the Blessed Bush happens from 3:30 onwards in the same clip.

Akrasia · 11-01-2008 1:01pm

robindch wrote: »

Some DCMA-busting criminal has kindly uploaded what looks like most of Jesus Camp to YouTube in nine parts. Don't know if all the clips link together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c94b1_dx9Q8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS6LwHJz1jk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwPfsE9qcGQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wl_SmHKcPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayO96E4A_fU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgEFSQ4j3ts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZJerZM5ROY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWjUBetFZl0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw16gs9rNmw

There's plenty of psychological abuse on show in this film, and the carry-on at the start of part six is as gross as anything else.

The Adoration of the Blessed Bush happens from 3:30 onwards in the same clip.

There's a more convenient source for the same film on google video. the whole film uninterrupted http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5249911130864255023&hl=en-CA

Akrasia · 11-01-2008 3:01pm

There is one bit on the 36th minute of that video that sums up the damage that this indoctrination does to the children perfectly. A young boy talks about how hard it is to believe in god sometimes, that he doesn't really know him, and sometimes he doesn't believe everything in the bible, and that makes him feel like a faker and guilty and ashamed.

That is coming from a young child. These are children who are pressured and shamed into believing in something, they believe out of fear. They are told that they have to believe or else they'll be taken by satan, it is very very real for these children, the children are terrified of what might happen if they don't do and think exactly as their told.

robindch · 11-01-2008 3:32pm

I watched this with a Russian friend who became quite upset quite a few times during it, saying it was a more severe form of the guilt-tripping, idealogical indoctrination, nationalistic military crapology and blatant psychological abuse that happened to kids from time to time under communism.

That's the power of the meme!

kitt13 · 13-01-2008 4:43pm

Jesus Camp was filmed in Devils Lake (I know, funny, right?), North Dakota. North Dakota is a very rural state with apparently one of the highest number of churches per capita in the States. I have also read it has the highest number of people identifying as Christian. It is in many ways, or was when I was living there which would have been pre-internet, very insular.

Religion was a huge part of our lives. (By "our" I mean those around me in North Dakota.) Even though I grew up in a neighborhood with very educated people as neighbors (doctors, scientists, accounts, etc.) almost everyone went to church. There were lots of Lutherans (keeping in the Scandinavian and German vein) and other smaller less known Protestant denominations. The Catholics tended to go to private schools that taught in the Catholic ethos. Most of the kids in the neighborhood would have gone to bible school in the summer and some even held it at their house. What a way to spend your summer break from school, huh? I recently had to return for my father's funeral and was reminded of how religious everyone was. It was rather jarring but having said that people are really, really nice and helpful.

I just wanted to add the above because I wanted to help put that documentary in some context.

Overheal · 16-01-2008 9:55pm

Akrasia wrote: »

There is one bit on the 36th minute of that video that sums up the damage that this indoctrination does to the children perfectly. A young boy talks about how hard it is to believe in god sometimes, that he doesn't really know him, and sometimes he doesn't believe everything in the bible, and that makes him feel like a faker and guilty and ashamed.

That is coming from a young child. These are children who are pressured and shamed into believing in something, they believe out of fear. They are told that they have to believe or else they'll be taken by satan, it is very very real for these children, the children are terrified of what might happen if they don't do and think exactly as their told.

This was the kind of analysis I was hoping to find by posting this here. I was just curious if, as Christians, you condoned any of the indoctrination shown in the film? Do you feel the camp or the parish in question was doing anything good and correct? Or do you think like me and that its criminal to subject these kids to this kind of material.

And these people are still in operation... http://www.kidsinministry.org

B00MSTICK · 21-01-2008 4:07am

I'm a christian but not a catholic or any other denomination. Id read from the bible and make my own interpretation of it. No need to go to church and hear other peoples interpretations if you want to talk to him, he's all around us right? Preaching to people especially kids like this is mad IMO. Brainwashing to the extreme.

Take a older woman I know, she is completey opposed to sex before marriage and other catholic notions. Fear of hell/satan. Didnt jc die on the cross so all our sins would be forgiven? Hence no sins? Im sure they were thought this as kids, just like kids in islamic countries have other ideals pressed on them, belief from fear again.

Sorry for my ignorance, just stumbled on the thread and posted my view!

PDN · 21-01-2008 2:20pm

B00MSTICK wrote: »

Didnt jc die on the cross so all our sins would be forgiven? Hence no sins?

Yes, Jesus died on the cross so all our sins would be forgiven. No, it does not follow that because forgiveness is available then somehow sins don't exist any more.

The teaching of Jesus, and of the rest of the New Testament, is that forgiveness is obtained through repentance (turning your life around so as not to repeat the sins).

Akrasia · 21-01-2008 3:27pm

PDN wrote: »

Yes, Jesus died on the cross so all our sins would be forgiven. No, it does not follow that because forgiveness is available then somehow sins don't exist any more.

The teaching of Jesus, and of the rest of the New Testament, is that forgiveness is obtained through repentance (turning your life around so as not to repeat the sins).

I don't get why forgiveness wasn't available before Jesus died on the cross. Why was his death necessary.

PDN · 21-01-2008 3:48pm

Akrasia wrote: »

I don't get why forgiveness wasn't available before Jesus died on the cross. Why was his death necessary.

Forgiveness was available before Jesus died on the Cross - otherwise nobody would have been forgiven prior to the first Century AD. However, Christians believe that all forgiveness for sin is based on the Cross (either looking forward to it by faith through the Old Testament sacrifices, or looking back to the Cross as a historical event).

Why was His death necessary? Because sin is far more offensive than any of us really grasp. God's justice requires that sin incurs a punishment, and that punishment is death. God, by paying the punishment for us on the Cross in the Person of Jesus Christ, made forgiveness and salvation possible without making a mockery of the concept of justice.

stevejazzx · 22-01-2008 12:54am

I watched it!:eek:

Absolutely terrifying stuff..the cheap psychology used by the adults to brain wash those poor poor children...it was incredibly sad..
They focused on the worse kind of scare mongering, fear, death and hell. The children are so bombarded with these constant threats of punishment that just don't know what to do, usually the result is some kind of mass hysteria with them all babbling away in tongues or crying aimlessly in the hope of that there will be some kind of comfort. The adults all twisted bigots decreeing sicence as a guess, an estimation and even a lie - while decreeing God, a litrealist biblical God as 'the only possible answer'. Global warming doesn't exist of course with these people and children as young as 6 and 7 years old are made to promise 'to never abort'
'don't be a promise-breaker' the main protaganist insits as part of her repertoire of endless dogmatic mantra..
it is a disgusting movie which depicts child abuse from begining to end in an open unapologetic nature as if they had some kind of immunity from reality. Indeed that is the thing with these people, they are totally removed from relaity, busy inventing enemies in thier heads
'kids in Palestine have hand grenades' 'we must be ready to fight them'!!
busy claiming to know things that they cannot possibly know.
I know they don't represent moderates but come on people surely it is plain to see from something like this that religon texts only feed this kind of fundamentlaism, for if you were to question them - they could rightfully claim that thier mandate lies in the bible, no? Muslims seem sure theirs is firmly contained within the pages of the Quran so what's the difference? For me their is very little differnece... it seems that all all people need to start a holy war is a holy book claiming a true faith...biggest probelm facing mankind in my opinion.

Steve

CommandoJack · 25-01-2008 4:04pm

Overheal wrote: »

So at this camp, alongside teaching these kids not to turn to sin, and how it can take over their life if they turn to sin they are teaching them its ok to kill people that oppose their belief... particularly Islamics (as most of the children in camp have parents serving in Iraq) ... I find something wrong with that. Teaching a child its ok to let killing Islamics take over their lives?

So I guess the question is: do you believe that we have to turn to killing at all, in order to make 'peace' with Islamics, or any other radical factions that would turn to violence in order to further their faith?

When did God/Jesus ever condone man killing man?

EDIT: cant creationism and evolution just get along!?

"Let me say something about Harry Potter - Warlocks are enemies of god. If it had been in the old testament, Harry would have been put to death!"

as we're aware, this ISN'T the Old Testament.

it hurts me to see this coming from people who claim the label "Christian". something that's stopped me from calling myself Christian when someone asks, and more explaining my viewpoint in a couple of sentences. They're seemingly forgetting the New Testament, and Jesus' "new covenant", etc.

other than that, all I can say is i can guarantee that if Harry had been put to death, it wouldn't have been by the state.

does God really want [us] to start killing and wage war?

The whole war thing stopped after the exile (at Jehoiachim). After that point, Judah(/Israel), God's nation, "lost God's favour", dissolved as a country per se, thus had no need for war, conquest or anything of that ilk. Since then, "God's nation" has never really been restored, so that war thing stopped. I wasn't aware that all of God's people were in the same geographic locale, so conquest or even defence at war shouldn't be starting, nor have I heard God calling me to war, in the physical plane. Spiritual warfare is, for Christians, an ongoing thing, which is why prayer (in the unsullied form) is necessary.

I'll continue this when I get home if it's helpful, it's 4:10 and i need to leave work.

Weidii · 29-01-2008 4:09pm

The people in the movie really scare me. Imagine what the world would be like if they had everything they wanted.

Overheal · 01-02-2008 10:51am

Weidii wrote: »

The people in the movie really scare me. Imagine what the world would be like if they had everything they wanted.

Which reminds me - keep an eye out for Scientologists. Dodgey megalomaniacs, them.

The whole war thing stopped after the exile (at Jehoiachim). After that point, Judah(/Israel), God's nation, "lost God's favour", dissolved as a country per se, thus had no need for war, conquest or anything of that ilk. Since then, "God's nation" has never really been restored, so that war thing stopped. I wasn't aware that all of God's people were in the same geographic locale, so conquest or even defence at war shouldn't be starting, nor have I heard God calling me to war, in the physical plane. Spiritual warfare is, for Christians, an ongoing thing, which is why prayer (in the unsullied form) is necessary.

Yea..I dont nearly enough about anything surround Israel or the holy wars

Ima have to wiki it

thanks for the data

and thanks all for clearing up that this doesnt appear to be some agenda that is laid out in the old testament - which would have otherwise disturbed me a bit.

Akrasia · 01-02-2008 1:11pm

CommandoJack wrote: »

The whole war thing stopped after the exile (at Jehoiachim). After that point, Judah(/Israel), God's nation, "lost God's favour", dissolved as a country per se, thus had no need for war, conquest or anything of that ilk. Since then, "God's nation" has never really been restored, so that war thing stopped. I wasn't aware that all of God's people were in the same geographic locale, so conquest or even defence at war shouldn't be starting, nor have I heard God calling me to war, in the physical plane. Spiritual warfare is, for Christians, an ongoing thing, which is why prayer (in the unsullied form) is necessary.

What about the crusades? (and there were loads of them)

The RC church clearly justified them with reference to the bible

PDN · 01-02-2008 1:38pm

Akrasia wrote: »

What about the crusades? (and there were loads of them)

The RC church clearly justified them with reference to the bible

If you read other threads in this forum you will see Roman Catholics arguing firmly that the Bible alone should not be taken as authority, but that church tradition and dogma is an alternative form of revelation. The Crusades were advanced by the Catholic Church through a series of arguments that, while certainly quoting some Scripture (usually out of context), depended much more on politics and human reasoning.

Since Christians are scattered all over the world it would be absolute folly to equate any geographical location or political nation as being a Christian nation comprising the people of God.

Christians use military terminology to refer to the spiritual battle between good and evil which is conducted by nonviolent means. This used to be fairly clear to everybody, for example most pacifists had no problem singing a song such as "Onward Christian Soldiers". However, today we have people apparently getting spooked by Christian youths wearing camouflage and the Moscow government trying to ban The Salvation Army as a paramilitary organisation. I put it down to poor education.

Zombrex · 01-02-2008 1:59pm

PDN wrote: »

Why was His death necessary? Because sin is far more offensive than any of us really grasp. God's justice requires that sin incurs a punishment, and that punishment is death.

Who was punished by Jesus' death?

PDN · 01-02-2008 2:05pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Who was punished by Jesus' death?

Jesus, AKA 'God the Son'.

JimiTime · 07-05-2008 12:38am

I don't know if anyone caught the programme. It was on C4 tonight. i don't even know what I want to say tbh. It was quite possibly the most disturbing thing I've seen! I'm sad, angry, confused. Man, i was in tears! Who are these people? In all honesty, its moments like this that I'm convinced that The Holy Spirit is not ambiguous, and that his presence is very much obvious, not a feeling etc, but an unmistakeable experience. Anyone else catch it? Does anyone know if these evil people are still an 'expanding group'? Seriously, I'm just so angry yet sad:mad::( They are 'no different' to suicide bombers IMO! in fact, if the situation arose, I think they'd have no bother blowing a few 'infidels' up.

I know this is a rant of sorts, I just need it off my chest. No wonder there are so many people who think Christians are barmy. Between the institutional abuse in the RCC and folk like these wicked folk, I'm sure there are many who've been stumbled away from Christ. I just want to scream ahhhhhhhhh!!!

Overheal · 07-05-2008 1:09am

Bumped in response to JimiTime's thread and a dupe thread opened up in A & A. Please merge.

Tim Robbins · 07-05-2008 8:55am

Overheal wrote: »

Bumped in response to JimiTime's thread and a dupe thread opened up in A & A. Please merge.

Well I try to be liberal and accepting of Christians. However, after seeing that documentary it really makes me question this stance I take.

In that documentary they whooped up positive emotion by singing songs, clapping and dancing. This created a sense of security, trust and good will. They then scared the cr*p out of them by all the hell talk. It's a very sophisticated brain washing approach.

However, I asked myself what is the difference between them and other Christians. Well there just doesn't seem much. Most of our friends in the Christianaity forum believe in hell, a literal interpretation of the bible, and salvation only in Jesus Christ. Most of them know christianity very well but very little about any other religion, faith or Science. Most christian churches usually tell the kids all the nice stuff first and then give them the bad news about hell. The folks in Jesus camp are just more explicit and dramatic. But it is essentially the same message, with some good "Jesus loves you" news first, followed by some scare tactics techniques.

JimiTime · 07-05-2008 9:28am

Tim Robbins wrote: »

In that documentary they whooped up positive emotion by singing songs, clapping and dancing. This created a sense of security, trust and good will. They then scared the cr*p out of them by all the hell talk. It's a very sophisticated brain washing approach.

In fairness, i don't think its very sophisticated. It doesn't need to be when your audience is a bunch of very young children. Its just all the kids know. They're obviously getting it at home, and then at this place. All the adults in their lives are feeding this to them, so its all they know.

However, I asked myself what is the difference between them and other Christians. Well there just doesn't seem much. Most of our friends in the Christianaity forum believe in hell, a literal interpretation of the bible, and salvation only in Jesus Christ. Most of them know christianity very well but very little about any other religion, faith or Science. Most christian churches usually tell the kids all the nice stuff first and then give them the bad news about hell. The folks in Jesus camp are just more explicit and dramatic. But it is essentially the same message, with some good "Jesus loves you" news first, followed by some scare tactics techniques.

I think this is an example of the damage these freaks do! People who don't care much for God anyway, have an excuse to bunch them together. Have to say, I wouldn't have expected it to be you Tim, I'd have given you a bit more credit. Again though, its testimony to the harm these people do outside of their freakish environment. I'd say what they are doing is child abuse of the highest order! Disgusting! The thoughts of someone like you saying that I'm not much different is quite honestly...worrying.

Well I try to be liberal and accepting of Christians.

I think the above line was probably the the worst of your post! Try to be 'Accepting of Christians'? I feel honoured! I think this line says that you feel the opposite tbh. You have to 'try' to 'accept' them? What, into your home? On the streets? in conversation? whats the consequence of not accepting them? Locking them away? evangelising against them? blowing them up? stopping them practising and meeting?

Tim Robbins · 07-05-2008 10:11am

JimiTime wrote: »

I think this is an example of the damage these freaks do! People who don't care much for God anyway, have an excuse to bunch them together. Have to say, I wouldn't have expected it to be you Tim, I'd have given you a bit more credit. Again though, its testimony to the harm these people do outside of their freakish environment. I'd say what they are doing is child abuse of the highest order! Disgusting! The thoughts of someone like you saying that I'm not much different is quite honestly...worrying.

I take it they are more dramatic, but leave the dramatics aside what's the difference between your theological believe and theirs'?

Try to be 'Accepting of Christians'? I feel honoured! I think this line says that you feel the opposite tbh. You have to 'try' to 'accept' them? What, into your home? On the streets? in conversation? whats the consequence of not accepting them? Locking them away? evangelising against them? blowing them up? stopping them practising and meeting?

Of course let them onto the streets, houses etc. What I meant is that a lot of atheists are categorically dismissive of people with theological beliefs. They put them in the stupid box and just laugh at them.

I try to go beyond that and try to look at it a bit deeper. I admit I don't always achieve that and can get the occasional touch of the Hiveminds. I find it hard sometimes. Especially after seeing such programs.

Apologies.

JimiTime · 07-05-2008 11:54am

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I take it they are more dramatic, but leave the dramatics aside what's the difference between your theological believe and theirs'?

Seriously Tim. Its not about what one 'says' it believes, but their actions that show their Faith. As Christ said, 'A tree will be known by its fruits'. These people may also believe, like you do, that the earth goes round the Sun. Does that make them the same as you? No. There are many who say they believe in the same God as I, but their actions show them to be very different. We may share some beliefs, but we are 'wholly' different!

Of course let them onto the streets, houses etc. What I meant is that a lot of atheists are categorically dismissive of people with theological beliefs. They put them in the stupid box and just laugh at them.
I try to go beyond that and try to look at it a bit deeper. I admit I don't always achieve that and can get the occasional touch of the Hiveminds. I find it hard sometimes. Especially after seeing such programs.

So you struggle between thinking I am stupid and what? Thinking I'm an intelligent idiot? Misguided? What is looking deeper? Looking for traces of mental illness maybe:) I'm not stupid just unwell?

Apologies.

For what? Saying how you feel? I appreciate you saying how you honestly view things, I'm just taken aback at how it is you feel, and wish you didn't feel that way.

Tim Robbins · 07-05-2008 12:20pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Seriously Tim. Its not about what one 'says' it believes, but their actions that show their Faith. As Christ said, 'A tree will be known by its fruits'. These people may also believe, like you do, that the earth goes round the Sun. Does that make them the same as you? No.

They could quote the same line and say it is you not bearing the fruits.

As for me, my core beliefs clash with theirs:

These people believe in:
1. Biblical literacy
2. Salvation only through Jesus Christ
3. Heaven and Hell.
They base their life around it, like most Christians.

I believe:
1. The Bible is a book of poetry, romantic notions and spiritual aspirations.
2. There is no such thing as salvation.
3. There is no heaven and hell.

So my core beliefs are quite different from their's. Are your's?

The only difference I see between the regular Christian posters here and them is that I doubt you would bring a child to tears to impart your beliefs, but are the believes the same? It appears so.

For what? Saying how you feel? I appreciate you saying how you honestly view things, I'm just taken aback at how it is you feel, and wish you didn't feel that way.

I am sorry, I don't agree with the concept of telling kids about Hell when there is absolutely zero evidence for it. Most Christian Churches do this, sooner or later and it is something I am not comfortable with.

PDN · 07-05-2008 12:37pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I take it they are more dramatic, but leave the dramatics aside what's the difference between your theological believe and theirs'?

And what is the difference between your theological beliefs and those of Pol Pot?

My point in asking such a question is that the theological beliefs of the individuals involved with the Children's Camp are not the issue. What appears to be the issue (I would point out that I have not personally seen the film) is that they use manipulation, fear, exploitation etc in a way that is apparently coercive and akin to brainwashing.

Such tactics have been used in the past for nationalistic purposes, to support political standpoints, and to propagate religious views. Such methods are wrong irrespective of whether we are talking about the Hitler Youth Movement, Mao's little Red Devils, Children's Camp or ecoterrorists.

To use Children's Camp to attack those who hold similar theological beliefs is akin to those who use the Crusades as an excuse to attack all Catholics, or Stalin as an excuse to attack all atheists.

Doctor DooM · 07-05-2008 1:06pm

PDN wrote: »

And what is the difference between your theological beliefs and those of Pol Pot?

My point in asking such a question is that the theological beliefs of the individuals involved with the Children's Camp are not the issue. What appears to be the issue (I would point out that I have not personally seen the film) is that they use manipulation, fear, exploitation etc in a way that is apparently coercive and akin to brainwashing.

Such tactics have been used in the past for nationalistic purposes, to support political standpoints, and to propagate religious views. Such methods are wrong irrespective of whether we are talking about the Hitler Youth Movement, Mao's little Red Devils, Children's Camp or ecoterrorists.

To use Children's Camp to attack those who hold similar theological beliefs is akin to those who use the Crusades as an excuse to attack all Catholics, or Stalin as an excuse to attack all atheists.

There's a question so- in modern Christian churches, when is the idea of hell introduced to children? Are they still effectively taught "if you don't do what I say, you are going to hell?" Because that's not something you can say in your comparision to Stalin etc. above. Moderate left wingers do not throw you in gulags if you do not agree with them, nor do they threaten to do so.

JimiTime · 07-05-2008 1:24pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

They could quote the same line and say it is you not bearing the fruits.

Tim, you're better than this, come on.

As for me, my core beliefs clash with theirs:

These people believe in:
1. Biblical literacy
2. Salvation only through Jesus Christ
3. Heaven and Hell.
They base their life around it, like most Christians.

I believe:
1. The Bible is a book of poetry, romantic notions and spiritual aspirations.
2. There is no such thing as salvation.
3. There is no heaven and hell.

So my core beliefs are quite different from their's. Are your's?

Again Tim, you're better than this.

The only difference I see between the regular Christian posters here and them is that I doubt you would bring a child to tears to impart your beliefs, but are the believes the same? It appears so.

I seriously hope you'll reconsider your reasoning.

I am sorry, I don't agree with the concept of telling kids about Hell when there is absolutely zero evidence for it. Most Christian Churches do this, sooner or later and it is something I am not comfortable with.

Well as someone who doesn't believe in fiery hell, that has nothing to do with me.

Tim Robbins · 07-05-2008 1:31pm

PDN wrote: »

And what is the difference between your theological beliefs and those of Pol Pot?

1. I believe that people should learn about religions, faiths etc.
2. I believe people have a right to adopt a theological faith.
3. I believe that some people can benefit from prayer in the same way some people can benefit from mediatation.
4. I believe some people can benefit from prayer in the same way some people can benefit from placebo.
5. I believe some theological establishments have built nice buildings and have nice songs.
6. I believe truth is best found in science and logic even though it's not always fool proof and reliable.
7. I would be an humanist, Pol Pot would be a sociopath.
Should I continue?

Such tactics have been used in the past for nationalistic purposes, to support political standpoints, and to propagate religious views. Such methods are wrong irrespective of whether we are talking about the Hitler Youth Movement, Mao's little Red Devils, Children's Camp or ecoterrorists.

To use Children's Camp to attack those who hold similar theological beliefs is akin to those who use the Crusades as an excuse to attack all Catholics, or Stalin as an excuse to attack all atheists.

I don't agree with that. They use the similar tactics, communicate the same message as most christian Churches.
1. Indoctrination.
2. Excuse themselves from rational criticism, debate, science etc.
3. Scare kids about hell.

Religion thrives on getting people when they are young. Children will believe anything and their subconcious becomes almost hard wired such that they can't think about it objectively. This is why statistically, atleast 95% of religious people have their same view as their parents even when all things being equal this is a highly improbable co-incidence.

As the Jesuits says: "give me the child until he is seven, and I'll give you the man".

BrianCalgary · 07-05-2008 1:57pm

SDooM wrote: »

There's a question so- in modern Christian churches, when is the idea of hell introduced to children? Are they still effectively taught "if you don't do what I say, you are going to hell?" Because that's not something you can say in your comparision to Stalin etc. above. Moderate left wingers do not throw you in gulags if you do not agree with them, nor do they threaten to do so.

You have the whole message wrong. I have never heard any Christian say:
"if you don't do what I say, you are going to hell?"

I do hear Christians say: Eternal life is gained through a personal relationship with Jesus. Without that then you suffer a second death which is Hell. And this is what both look like.

Moderate left wingers just fine you with a threat of jail time if you do not accept their idealogies.

BrianCalgary · 07-05-2008 2:02pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't agree with that. They use the similar tactics, communicate the same message as most christian Churches.
1. Indoctrination.
2. Excuse themselves from rational criticism, debate, science etc.
3. Scare kids about hell.

Religion thrives on getting people when they are young. Children will believe anything and their subconcious becomes almost hard wired such that they can't think about it objectively. This is why statistically, atleast 95% of religious people have their same view as their parents even when all things being equal this is a highly improbable co-incidence.

As the Jesuits says: "give me the child until he is seven, and I'll give you the man".

1. Define indoctrination? I see churches teaching truths as contained in teh Bible.

2. This certainly does not happen. Jesus encouraged debate and search for truth.

3. I have never seen this happen.

All faiths and philosophies do the same. Where do you get that stat?

Jesus Camp

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