Making it as a Pro

Oriel

From reading another thread:

Borderfox wrote: »

I dont think people giving it away for free ruins it for pros

I recently shot Bruce Springsteen. I know a guy who's the founder and managing director of a photographic company here up north. He said that my work was better/as good as anything his guy produced, and I had a £500 lens, the other guy had a £5000+ 400mm lens. (Both Nikon )
I told him my problem was getting a photo pass to gigs, because I'm not a professional.
He said that I he'd be able to get me the passes for gigs that I wanted. Great.

He gets the shots, I get the experience. Do I get paid? I dunno. I'm just grateful to get the pass to be honest.

What pisses me off is that the Pros go to a gig with their 200mm/300mm/400mm lenses, take the "money shot" usually a head shot of the act, then piss off, send to the paper, and go to bed. I try to get as many shots as I can which try to capture the action and get nothing for it.

I'm fairly confident that I could make it as a pro. (Disagree? Please say why.)
I'm currently in the fortunate position to have the money available to me to buy a top-range full body and lens, do am I going to? No. Because I can't justify the expendature, because I don't see where the revenue is going to come from.

Wedding photography doesn't interest me. It's too posed and artificial. Yes, you have the candid shots, but they don't hang on walls.
I want to capture the moment. Which is what photography is all about.

How do you win?

/edit - God I sound like Elven... sorry about that

challengemaster

Oriel wrote: »

/edit - God I sound like Elven...

Lol, she wont like that one!

Fair play to you on your work being recognised as better than hired people. But regards your question, sometimes you just have to do it and hope for the best Still want to ask yourself 'what if' 20/30 years on?

RoryW

Oriel wrote: »

From reading another thread:



....I know a guy who's the founder and managing director of a photographic company here up north. ..... the other guy had a £5000+ 400mm lens. (Both Nikon )

see if he can lend you the lens (the least he can do if he isnt paying your for shots or maybe you get it in return for so many photos)

then lens lust will kick in:D

Oriel

challengemaster wrote: »

Still want to ask yourself 'what if' 20/30 years on?

Thing is, I have a decent full-time job - I need a reason to leave it. A "what if?" isn't just enough for me at the moment...
It could end up being a "What if I had kept on in software...".

RoryW wrote: »

see if he can lend you the lens

The guy using the 400mm was a guy employed by the photographic company, not the director himself. The other photographer is another guy working to feed his kids.

Oriel

challengemaster wrote: »

Lol, she wont like that one!

Then I hope she can get a sense of humour like Rymus!
He took me calling him a bollocks as a friendly punch on the shoulder. Rightly so.
We'll all cool really...

challengemaster

Well if you're looking for a reason to quit your job, then it sounds like you want to already... no?

Fajitas!

Oriel is also a bollocks, albeit a sound one.

Disclaimer: I'm drunk.

Steve, it's not about the cost of your lens, it's about your shot. You can be paid whatever amount, but if you get the right shot, that's what counts. Especially if you have the agreement that you can use it in your portfolio... Then make your few bob*.
The 'old' or 'experienced' pro's do it because they can. They're in the business. They have the name. They have the papers/print. They don't care because it's money in the bank.



*plenty of bob

Anyways, I reserve this space to post in the morning.

PeakOutput

im a little bit intoxicated but im going to try and vocalise(textualise) what i feel on the subject anyway and it can be applied to any profession that can also be a hobby.

when it comes to being a proffesional it takes a very exceptional person to stop it becoming all about the money.

its a job to those people. they might love their job but at the same time there is no greater chance(imo) that the average profesional photographer loves there job more than the average office worker it just happens to be what they are/were good at. even if you dont agree with that articular statement which i know alot wont. professional photographers are no less prone to just wanting to get something done than anyone else is.

i had another 2 paragraphs explaining my reasoning but i just deleted them coz they were long

bottom line is the only reward for a hobby is personal satisfaction turning it into a profession brings money into it and if the world has taught anyone anything its that money is almost never a catalyst for positive change.

(imo)

TelePaul

Hey Oriel. I'm just gonna wax lyrical here, hopefully some of it will be relevant to you. I'm quite young so this mightn't be too relevant, but I've had a few hobbies. Obviously, some amateur photography, which is what brings me here, and also the various facets of music - playing, mixing whatever.

Alot of the time I find myself listening to a band or listening to someone's demo and I end up thinking - "Hey, I could do that", or "Hey, i'm better than that" or "That could be me if I wanted it". But now I'm wondering if any of that is true, and whether my restraint is based around my inability to take risks or whether I'm just not good enough. Either way, I'm getting a bit tired of it all, and I'm quietly yearning for some time to shine.

It's a bitch of a situation. Do you choose stability and (financial) security over excitement and happiness? There's also the fact that you might find yourself turning into one of those press photographers who turns up, takes his one shot and goes home, I guess your art might be compromised in a sense. I have a friend who's doing photography in college, and he's really good. moreover, he likes it. I'm 6 months shy of a degree in Business and I'm thinking about calling it a day because I can't stand it.

You didn't really say whether you have responsibilities or not, obviously that's a concern. Also, how easy would it be for you to go back to your old lifestyle if the pipe dream doesn't work out? It seems like the kind of thing you should be doing before or after you commit to a career. What about pursuing this on a part-time basis.

bradnailer

What I do for a living funds my hobby, taking photo's gives me a break from my daily routine and who thinks about work when they're behind the lens.
On the other hand if being behind the lens is work where do you go from there.
I lived in Canada for a few years,people always ask me why I came back (as I was crazy) well when your working your ass off Canada is as much of a pain in the ass as anywhere else.
Basically I think it's a grass is greener thing, stick to the software and excel at amateur photography:)

thebaz

from what i can see the only way to make a reasonable honest living out of photography is weddings ....

i'd love to be a photo journalist , but its closed off by Unions .... i'd go to a war zone and shoot ... if i got the risk money i'd do it

ps i work in software , and hate it , the money is good , but i'd definitly move to something more exciting ... war zones

Calina

Steve,

this is something which exercises my mind quite a lot too.

first up, if you haven't read this, it's worth a look. Obviously it's not quite analogous to your situation but I found it quite reassuring.

A lot depends on how you would want to work it if you went pro. Me personally, I don't want to do the weddings - I've known enough brides and while they are all good friends, it is fair to say that getting married occasionally brings out some stress. I couldn't be having with that on a regular basis.

So I have some empathy with you not wanting to get involved in that.

However, you do seem to specialise in gig photography so the next question is can you make a living from it locally? One photograph is never going to be enough realistically so you have to look at a steady stream of photographs - can you get that? In some respects as far as gig photography is concerned, you have a slightly better time of it than I do as the internationally recognised stars do come here and those are the pictures you are most likely to sell.

My main target for 2007 was not to sell or publish a load of photographs, but to up the contents of my portfolio to include some of the high profile kitesurfers. I did actually manage this but they don't, as a general rule, come here...I have to go to them. So the question I guess I'm hinting at is "how local do you want to stay"? The more local you stay, however, the less likely you are to make it as a pro. Other options include finding some local band and latching on to them as their photographer much like the Manic Street Preachers' guy did (can't remember his name, was it Mitch something or other?" and hoping they hit the big time.

We all - to a great extent - take good pictures. I was at a couple of major kite events during the year and in the two hours that I got to take pictures at one of them (due to a severe lack of wind) I took pictures that people have since told me were....better than the official photog's pictures. Fine. But he's getting paid for it, and I'm not.

If I were you, I'd grab the pass. Most stock agencies don't necessarily pay you to take the photograph, but they take a cut when they manage to sell it. Just because the guy is going to arrange a pass for you to events doesn't mean that that's the sole benefit you can get out of it. I know that I am one of the worst in the world for this but when you do this, you can ask, look, what are you going to do with the photographs? and if he says sell them, then ask him how he normally does the split. I know that for some it's 60:40 to the photographer, some it's 50:50 and some it's 40:60 with the 60 going to the agency.

The one thing I would say is that with a little imagination it is possible - particularly in the area of gig photography - to do the full time job for a while simultaneously. I know what I would like to be able to do and I know that it would be possible if I get to a certain level to continue living in Dublin and doing it, the key part is getting to that level and that's the part that's hard.

Life is a series of what ifs, both professionally and personally. Ultimately, whatever decision you ever make it's always the right one at the time because you'll never know that the alternative would not have been worse regardless.

the other thing I would say is based on other things you have said, why don't you try to bend the world to suit you? I'm a sports photographer but have you seen what I do to some of those photographs?

elven

Ah don't worry I'm gearing up for a lovely long winded over analytical thread soon, just for you...

It's all been said above. the catalyst for me, is that when you're relying on the photography to pay the bills you don't get to choose the assignments, you have to come up with the same results regardless of whether it's pink floyd or dolly parton. Would you still want to put up with all the crap and poor pay to take pictures of people you're not interested in?

sheesh

sounds to me like you could be on to something great here you have a contact that will take your photos and use them commercially why not do it as a part time thing get paid (of course) but only do the gigs you are interested in you can tell your man that 'look I cannot guarantee I can go to all gigs because I have permanent job'.

you could also just use it as an excuse to get into gigs free and that could be your payment but I think that if you are producing stuff to a commercial standard maybe you should be getting paid as well that is not about greed it is about respect. Unless the guy himself is paying for your ticket into the gig he is getting your stuff for free.

that said in the short term it sounds cool.

shepthedog

I dont see why you cant give it a go for a while and see how it goes..
It doesnt have to be an all or nothing situation does it or maybe he is demanding you do it full time?
Why not try it out for couple of months with the security of your full time job.. It will eat up all your time but you will get the best of both worlds..
You will soon see if you can imagine yourself doing it full time.. Either way best of luck and you obviously have the skill to succeed so congrats..

Paulw

A very good article worth reading.

Borderfox

I have to say I in working terms I put the same amount of effort into taking pictures at a wedding/horse show/kids portrait/hobby shots and cant say that I would be blase about any subject I covered.

Get the pass Oriel and if you can get me one too

Borderfox

Just one small thing about going pro, I think you need good strength in depth to make it very successfull. If you concentrate on one thing you better be light years ahead of everybody doing it too. I enjoy every aspect of this job and love marketing myself, it suits me so much better than my last job. My last job closed down last September and I was made redundant so had a large sum of money to shove into gear.

soccerc

Oriel wrote: »

He said that my work was better/as good as anything his guy produced, and I had a £500 lens, the other guy had a £5000+ 400mm lens. (Both Nikon )

What pisses me off is that the Pros go to a gig with their 200mm/300mm/400mm lenses, take the "money shot" usually a head shot of the act, then piss off, send to the paper, and go to bed.
How do you win?

I can understand where you are coming from and I think it has been answered elsewhere.

From my viewpoint, for someone working for an agency/newspaper, it's their job.

Consider the gig you were at for a moment.

The pro/agency/media snapper was sent along to get the 'money shot' that's all.

It was perhaps the last marking at the end of his shift or indeed the first at the beginning or maybe marking four in the middle of his work day.

As one who has done the shifts, it's your job to get in, get the shot and move on to the next assignment. You could be traveling long distances between markings or if in Dublin caught up in city traffic.

You honestly don't have time to flute about seeking the best shot from a 2 hour gig at 9pm when you know you've to be mile away later to get shots of some social function.

At max the gig shot would need to be captured within five mins of the show starting so you can post process, add the event details before transmitting to base.

Try getting to three "soccer" games on a Sunday morning, all of them kicking off at 11am and try and get the best shot, along with team sheets, team pics at start, half tome or full time and the stress that causes, for the latter the losing team rarely co-operate - sorry, but it's not practical.

Get in, get the shot, get out and move to next marking ASAP


Rant over:eek:

Borderfox

I know what you mean Thimblefull, I was covering a dinner dance and just after it started a guy from a local paper came in took a few shots and ran out up to cover another gig, tough job being a staff photog and not one I would like to do.

thebaz

Borderfox wrote: »

tough job being a staff photog and not one I would like to do.

my dream job would be a staff photographer for the irish Times --would take a serious drop in cash , just to get in -- as i plod along in the other IT

RCNPhotos

Just found this thread. The thing you have to think about also with music photography, there is zero money to be made in it in Ireland. Certainly not a living anyway. The only real mag here who would buy shots would be Hotpress (who paid someone I know, sound guy, 45 quid for shooting Kasabian for them, very low money). i recently met a photographer, through my mum as she used to be a journalist. He was the main music guy years ago, doing stuff for all the record companies etc etc. But that's all gone now, you need to be able to do a bit of everything to make a living. There is no money in music photography in ireland.

thebaz

i know one of the photographers for hot press , and to put it mildly he struggles to make a living -- so to make a crust you must diversify , so agree fully with RCN

RCNPhotos

Indeed. If you want to make money in music, head to the states, or even the UK perhaps. But really, the states is where you need to go. Or maybe Japan or somewhere, somewhere massive, with a huge music scene.

DotOrg

Oriel wrote: »

I'm just grateful to get the pass to be honest.

I'm fairly confident that I could make it as a pro. (Disagree? Please say why.)

two big reasons, at the moment it's more about getting access for you. as a pro, the access is reasonably easy, all you have to do is turn up and get a couple of sharp well exposed shots

but the main problem as everyone else has said is money. In Ireland music makes so little. I've been at it for at least 5 years on a serious basis and still make very little money out of it and that includes having stuff published, working for the likes of major bands, major labels, big mags and papers. There simply isn't enough work

There would be in the UK or the USA but you'd also find a lot more competition and a lot more people who work for free just to get the free pass

And even though you may take better pics that those of the pros you see, it's not the pros who pick which shots get published, that's the editor and they virtually ever pick the shots that us as photographers know are the best shots

mervifwdc

As answered, there is a difference between doing it commercilly, and doing it for a hobby. The commercial guy (or gal) mayhave 8 or 9 things to shoot per day, so has to be in and out as fast as possible. The sad thing is that if your shooting for a paper, they do not pay any more for the absolutely best shot ever of a given event, and a "standard" one. That's why you see sports photog's arriving at a match, shooting for 10 minutes per end and heading off. It's not that they are not interested, it's just that there are more events to be covered in the same time window.

Software is the same - a hobbyist can write just as good code, sometimes better, but commercial organisations have to operate with deadlines and budgets. Some of the open source stuff is a bit like that, it does one thing brilliantly, but if the developer is not interested in writing manuals (the yucky bit of the job) then it may not have a manual.

Just be aware that if you go pro, you may have to compromise on getting the perfect shot when you are asked to cover 4 gigs per night.

Merv.

magicbastarder

i've mentioned it here before, but a mate of mine who's a pro photographer (primarily travel/calendar stuff) told me that if i ever wanted to consider photography as a career, to go out every evening, regardless of weather or the mood i'm in, and expose just one roll of film. and to continue doing this for three months, and then make the decision about going pro then.

Rojo

With music photography I think it's near on impossible to make a living out of it, here in Ireland anyway. As it has been said already, there's loads of people who are willing to things for free..

magicbastarder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsz6ZgcDxME&feature=related

Paulw

Classic !!!!!

I can see it happening too.