Is Toyota quality slipping?

pburns

This is based on personal anecdotal evidence and some posts I've read on this board recently. My interest was also piqued by an article I noticed lately about Katsuaki Watanabe, Toyota CEO, who seems to be a nut for cost-cutting (can't find it now but the article below gives a flavour).

They couldn't repeat the mistakes of late '90s/early '00s Daimler-Benz? Could they?

http://www.automotiveworld.com/wvma/content.asp?contentid=65295

Their car satisfaction and reliability rates have them off the top spot for a few years now..

Spit62500

I remember reading that they are aware of slipping quality and are making efforts to improve it before their reputation is dented. The Corolla launch in the US was held back so that quality could be improved before launch...

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/10/toyota_corolla_delay.html

The US has far more stringent warranty obligations for manufacturers so its expensive for them if a car has to be recalled. Maybe the European launch wasn't held back in a similar way so that they could iron out faults in production? I've read many complaints about dashboard creaks and squeaks in the Auris on the UK Toyota Owners club forum.

E92

Spit62500 wrote: »

Maybe the European launch wasn't held back in a similar way so that they could iron out faults in production? I've read many complaints about dashboard creaks and squeaks in the Auris on the UK Toyota Owners club forum.

When the Auris was launched, the motoring press were heavily critical of the quality of the Auris's interior. Toyota said in their defence that their market research showed that interior quality wasn't very high on the European buyers' wish-list. Clearly that was rubbish. Europeans love high quality interiors(well at least interiors that feel as is they are high quality, US buyers couldn't give a toss about the quality of fixtures and fittings).

And there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that Toyota standards are slipping. They are still a lot more reliable than many other cars, and thus far are not taking the huge downturn Merc did, but they don't make 'em like they used to, that there is no doubt about, and with this massive cost cutting plan(not as though Toyota needed it since they are already the world's most profitable car manufacturer) it doesn't bode well for the quality and reliability of future models. Remember Merc, the cost cutting was to make Merc more profitable, the days of over engineering cars was at an end so they told us, instead it sent reliability down the tubes and if you look at the inside of a new Merc it is no better than a value brand like a Skoda.

Now Toyota are saying that their future models won't be over engineered(I think the CEO of Toyota actually said this) like present models are, well all I can say is I hope they keep at it and it goes spectacularly wrong for them and they will see the error of their ways just like Merc have started to.

ninty9er

E92 wrote: »

and with this massive cost cutting plan(not as though Toyota needed it since they are already the world's most profitable car manufacturer)

Kluivert may or may not agree...I've my accounting head on now...

you don't become the world's most profitable car manufacturer without minding the costs:cool:

Masada

toyota's standards have deffinately dropped in recent years., ive worked on 2 corolla's that were suffering from gearbox trouble, they were around 03ish, on one of them the coil pack went on it aswell and in the end it had a terminal problem with the bottom end,. the car belonged to a friend of mine and it was never abused but from day one it was plagued with problems, particularly ECU stuff,.
Now when im working on stuff like the carina for instance i think its funny how they hardly ever have trouble and are ancient in comparason., another thing i noticed was that in the 04-06ish RAV4s they have silver paint on interior trims, gear know etc and within about 3 months it had started to wear off of a brand new car, and the centre console buttons are exactly the same ones they used in pre 95 corollas. the electric window button looks like it was an after thought and you have to lean over to reach it comfortably.,
then theres the 07 corolla, it uses digital instruments on the dash, and the petrol gauge is completely usless, it is constantly changing and you can never feel confident in what the level really is., it all looks nice but feels really cheap and plasticy inside., I also dont like the way you have to press the clutch every time you try to start it, i know that isnt a quality issue but i spend a lot of time under the hoods of cars and its handy when you can walk around and start the car without having to keep getting into the thing.,
the old toyota's were bulletproof compared to a lot of the stuff they have today.,

colm_mcm

vtec wrote: »

toyota's standards have deffinately dropped in recent years., ive worked on 2 corolla's that were suffering from gearbox trouble, they were around 03ish, on one of them the coil pack went on it aswell and in the end it had a terminal problem with the bottom end,. the car belonged to a friend of mine and it was never abused but from day one it was plagued with problems, particularly ECU stuff,.
Now when im working on stuff like the carina for instance i think its funny how they hardly ever have trouble and are ancient in comparason., another thing i noticed was that in the 04-06ish RAV4s they have silver paint on interior trims, gear know etc and within about 3 months it had started to wear off of a brand new car, and the centre console buttons are exactly the same ones they used in pre 95 corollas. the electric window button looks like it was an after thought and you have to lean over to reach it comfortably.,
then theres the 07 corolla, it uses digital instruments on the dash, and the petrol gauge is completely usless, it is constantly changing and you can never feel confident in what the level really is., it all looks nice but feels really cheap and plasticy inside., I also dont like the way you have to press the clutch every time you try to start it, i know that isnt a quality issue but i spend a lot of time under the hoods of cars and its handy when you can walk around and start the car without having to keep getting into the thing.,
the old toyota's were bulletproof compared to a lot of the stuff they have today.,

As cars need more technology, and people expect more features, simple cars like the Carina E won't happen again. Strange that people forget the niggly problems the Carina E gave when it was on sale! people used to say "it'll never be as good as the Carina II"


On a couple of specific points:
I have a 6 year old Rav4 here with interior paint still intact....

The clutch switch on the Auris/Corolla/Yaris is a safety feature, not a problem once you work on a few of them. no harm to press the clutch when starting.
Re:the fuel gauge, it also has a range meter, which takes the guesswork out of it. a lot of cars petrol lights go on and off, but it's more pronounced on the digital meter.

S.I.R

toyota died in 1987 imo , changing the corolla to fwd , not making the supra's dezign any lighter , under-powering the mkI mr2 also the fact that there cars seemed to be made on a budget of 5 quid didnt help.

ofcourse some of there cars are great but others are just a pile of rubbish. just like every car producer.

Masada

colm_mcm wrote: »

As cars need more technology, and people expect more features, simple cars like the Carina E won't happen again. Strange that people forget the niggly problems the Carina E gave when it was on sale! people used to say "it'll never be as good as the Carina II"


On a couple of specific points:
I have a 6 year old Rav4 here with interior paint still intact....

The clutch switch on the Auris/Corolla/Yaris is a safety feature, not a problem once you work on a few of them. no harm to press the clutch when starting.
Re:the fuel gauge, it also has a range meter, which takes the guesswork out of it. a lot of cars petrol lights go on and off, but it's more pronounced on the digital meter.

i have no idea about your rav4 but ive seen it in every one of them ive worked on and theres a 2004 one in my family with the same thing, its the paint on the plastic on the interior door handles, gear knob, the parts on either side of the stereo etc.,
what do ya think of the window switches? i hate the things and can never find them in the dark, almost all cars have them in an easy to reach place except the rav4.
as i said about the clutch switch, its not a problem but i find it an inconvienience, theres lots of other cars that have it too,.

as for the petrol light, at least with other cars when the light comes on and off you know its just at that level where it warns you and that you have plenty of time to make it to a garage, with the new corolla it can go from 2 bars to 1 and then it flashes in just a few mins and then go back to non flashing and sometimes 2 bars again., this car is also in the family a few months now, I like the styling of them but they feel really cheap inside.,

E92

vtec wrote: »

I like the styling of them but they feel really cheap inside.,

see post #4 by me for the reason why the Auris feels cheap n' nasty inside(having sat in one I can confirm this to be true)

cantdecide

Mum had a courtesy '07 Avensis for a week or more over the summer.

It cannot be understated- interiors are very disapointing. Dash rattles and squeaks, general feeling of made-of-tin and an intermittant pulsing sound from the back left.

I know the older GS300s are plagued by front brake, steering and suspension problems, coil packs and other things.

I know a girl who got an '02 corolla new (or close to it) who was plagued with problems. Ultimatums given and threats to give car back etc.

No car is 100% reliable but those arrogant Toyota owners think they're the smartest people in the world. I've always thought you had to sell your soul to get a dull avensis but it looks like those Toyotas are about to get interesting.

(ps, I noticed if you look at UK autotrader, there's 24000 bmws for sale and only 14000 Toyotas- draw your own conclusions)

maidhc

I have often commented on our Avensis.

Rotten thing.

It will soon be getting its 4th clutch (110k miles). You could blame the drivers except it is my parents car, and they have never fitted a replacment clutch to any other car: including a 200k miler mondeo we still run.

It has given lots of other niggly problems and vibrates horribly at 60+mph. I wish a truck would crash into it someday when it is parked up at the side of the road.

An unreliable Toyota is perhaps the most pointless vehicle in existance. You can forgive some cars, like Alfas, but never, ever, a bread and butter toyota.

cantdecide

maidhc wrote: »

An unreliable Toyota is perhaps the most pointless vehicle in existance

Wow, Maidhc- I couldn't have said it better:p

jayok

maidhc wrote: »

...An unreliable Toyota is perhaps the most pointless vehicle in existence...

Love that line - I will use again

Masada

lol., i like that one,
i think toyota have become all sony-ish actually, they've become too proud of their own reputation and think that they can throw anything out there and it be accepted.,

cantdecide

vtec wrote: »

lol., i like that one,
i think toyota have become all sony-ish actually, they've become too proud of their own reputation and think that they can throw anything out there and it be accepted.,

Definitely in Ireland- a Totota stronghold.

colm_mcm

vtec wrote: »

i
what do ya think of the window switches? i hate the things and can never find them in the dark, almost all cars have them in an easy to reach place except the rav4.

The window switches are generic Toyota parts, no great effort put into them. Drivers one is lit IIRC, but the rest arent.
Actually, what annoys me is that no Toyotas that I can remember have illuminated mirror switches. no idea why not!

Take your point on the Auris. Way off the mark. Corolla is much better though.

Masada

the one im talking about is the corolla, 2007 4dr saloon., isnt the auris mostly the same anyway?

colm_mcm

The Auris interior is like the Corolla, only with harder plastics! switches are the same.

what_car

pburns wrote: »

This is based on personal anecdotal evidence and some posts I've read on this board recently. My interest was also piqued by an article I noticed lately about Katsuaki Watanabe, Toyota CEO, who seems to be a nut for cost-cutting (can't find it now but the article below gives a flavour).

They couldn't repeat the mistakes of late '90s/early '00s Daimler-Benz? Could they?

http://www.automotiveworld.com/wvma/content.asp?contentid=65295

yes definately. back in 95 i had a corolla, buit rock solid very strongly put together. have had many toyota since then, and the build quality was never as good, ( they were built much better when built in japan). i had one of the first 1.4d4d saloons when they were released and it was the old shape, and much better car to drive than the new one...

i drove a new corolla 1.4 petrol. and its worse to drive than the previous model. cluch feels crap. and that digital fuel guage is so ****e. the new 1.4 petrol gives roughly the same fuel economy as my 2.0 auto accord!

E92

what_car wrote: »

i drove a new corolla 1.4 petrol. and its worse to drive than the previous model. cluch feels crap. and that digital fuel guage is so ****e. the new 1.4 petrol gives roughly the same fuel economy as my 2.0 auto accord!

Well it weighs more than an Avensis, what were you expecting:D?
(my dads Avensis gives no more than 41 mpg even on Motorway driving)

I was in the diesel one recently because I was getting a taxi somewhere, and even in town it was slow enough, so the 1.4 petrol must be very slow indeed.(the kerb weight for the 1.4 Corolla is 1270 kg, an Avensis 1.6 or 1.8 weighs 1245 kg)

what_car

E92 wrote: »

Well it weighs more than an Avensis, what were you expecting:D?
(my dads Avensis gives no more than 41 mpg even on Motorway driving)

I was in the diesel one recently because I was getting a taxi somewhere, and even in town it was slow enough, so the 1.4 petrol must be very slow indeed.(the kerb weight for the 1.4 Corolla is 1270 kg, an Avensis 1.6 or 1.8 weighs 1245 kg)

i wasnt expecting much really just had one in the yard idle, so took it for a spin.. just reporting back my findings

had the choice of a 07 316 or the corolla, as both were idle, so took the corolla , ..

im driving a vx 4.2 landcruiser for the next while nice and comfy , plenty of poke and thirsty as hell. its very very well put together, and great off road

JHMEG

Interior squeaks and rattles, while annoying, are no indication of the overall quality of a car (ask any Honda or Opel owner).

Masada

what_car wrote: »

i drove a new corolla 1.4 petrol. and its worse to drive than the previous model. cluch feels crap. and that digital fuel guage is so ****e. the new 1.4 petrol gives roughly the same fuel economy as my 2.0 auto accord!

I agree, theres no power at all in the 1.4, i have a 1.4 civic from 2004 and its a hundred times quicker than the new corolla., the clutch is too light aswell and after using the corolla today for a few hours i can say for absolute sure, that petrol gauge is complete sh*te., it was all over the place and even after putting 20quid in it, it took a while before the car copped on and stopped saying "low fuel".,

finbarrk

If they were as bad as most of ye are saying there wouldn't be as many of them on our roads.
They definatley don't give as many niggley problems as most other makes.
Maybe the interior design isn't the best but they are no. 1 for relibality.

cantdecide

If they were as bad as most of ye are saying there wouldn't be as many of them on our roads.

As I've previously posted, right now if you look on Autotrader UK, there's almost twice as many BMWs for sale as Toyotas. Ireland are Toyota fetishists without good reason- they're not as good as Irish people allow themselves to be brainwashed to believe. Out in the real world people who couldn't care less about cars buy them because they heard someone tell them Toyotas are the best built cars in the world:D
All brands must have someone to buy them afterall but I'll have an unreliable Alfa over a 'relibale toyota' any day of the week.

....they are no. 1 for relibality....

No car is totally reliable, not least Toyota. I think it's usually Mazda that have that accolade but I'm open to correction.

bushy...

finbarrk wrote: »

If they were as bad as most of ye are saying there wouldn't be as many of them on our roads.

Even if they turned into total crap , it would take a good bit of time for the "always had a toyota " people to stop buying them, since they were good for so long. Vaguely like I said that " Lucas , Prince of darkness " thing one day in a motorfactors n one lad got well offended, just because he hadn't ever problems from their key switches etc etc.

Masada

finbarrk wrote: »

If they were as bad as most of ye are saying there wouldn't be as many of them on our roads.
They definatley don't give as many niggley problems as most other makes.
Maybe the interior design isn't the best but they are no. 1 for relibality.

nobodys making them out to be bad, just not nearly as imortal as some people seem to think., every car will have some sort of fault at some time but it has to be said that toyota used to be better than they are today.,

another thing i remembered i dont like on a lot of the new toyota's, those seatbelt chimes that kep beeping if you dont put it on., i understand the need for that on the drivers seat as there is always gonna be someone in that seat, but if your carrying anything in the front seat the belt chime keeps sounding., i know its not a big deal but i was being pickey.,lol.,:D

kluivert

I actually perfer the interior of my Mk4 Astra over the Mk5 Astra.

I think because materials in production like construction have got expensive due to the increase in oil which is required for the manufacturer of the materials.

The new Auris is fat like most modern cars now a days. Too heavy and no updates to the engine. Plus any increase in power would lead to lower mileage. So all in all, we get slower cars.

Toyota always made a lighter car than than Opel or Volkwagen. If its quality you want its a Skoda you need. Never thought I would say that.

bazz26

I've had two Avensis, a MkI and up to recently a MkII. The MkII is far superior in everyway possible to the MkI. It was more solidly built, heavier, the fit & finish of the panels were excellent and it had (even after 167k miles) that clunk when you closed the door previously only reserved for certain German cars.

The one downside which all Toyotas seem to suffer from in my experience are rattles from around the dashboard fittings. I reckoned it was a standard feature but easily remedied by turning up the volume of the stereo. Both were light years ahead of the pile of junk Vectra I had before then.

ShakeAndBake

finbarrk wrote: »

If they were as bad as most of ye are saying there wouldn't be as many of them on our roads.
They definatley don't give as many niggley problems as most other makes.
Maybe the interior design isn't the best but they are no. 1 for relibality.

Not quite true. The president of Toyota made a speech last year were he apologised for the build quality. There is a very simple reason behind it. popularity.

When you build a factory that has a maximum production out put of say 200,000 vehicles a year... what you gonna do when you can easily supply 350,000? Most of Toyota productions lines are on over capicity. The only way to do it is remove certain things along the line, say the bloke who was checking for rattles in door panels. The cost of building a new factory or production line is way too expensive compared to over maximising a currrent line.

The thing that saves Toyota is their second to none (industry wise) After sales. There was one model a while back that had serious engine issues. Toyota ensured that every garage had the compnoents (expensive) in stock to do a rebuild or cylinder head swap (i can't recall the exact details) if required. So you could drop your car off in the morning for a service and collect it in the evening and the work was done without you even having to know. Its fairly common for a lot of the manufactures to do that rather than have to do a recall, if the can persuade the transport dept, but very few would go to the extent Toyota do. As such they can still push forward with the reliability thing but their quality has declined in recent years from what it was.

I can't find a link to the presidents speech but I think the link below was related to it at the time. It's kinda late to be super googling

http://www.autospies.com/news/Does-The-Press-Have-Favorites-Toyota-s-Defects-Irk-U-S-Automakers-Not-Buyers-7088/

E92

What ShakeAndBake seems to be implying is that Toyota have decided to do a Merc on it. So future Toyotas certainly won't be built as well as they used to be.

And as for customer care, it is very easy to be all nice and friendly to the customers because the cars are or should that be were so well made they never went wrong, and people turned up to get the car serviced and that was it. The reliable makes always seem to have excellent customer care, the unreliable makes don't.

I wonder what will happen with sister company Lexus? The Americans will desert Toyota if the standards from Toyota drop, one of the reasons Yanks love Japanese cars is because of their reliability after all, and the Irish will stop buying them too, one of the reasons why they are so popular here is because of the r-word.

I know people still buy Mercs but at the market Toyota is competing in, reliability certainly is very important factor in peoples' buying decisions.

Maybe Honda and Mazda will be big beneficiaries in this fall in Toyota quality and reliability?

Masada

honda have already stated they are aiming to be the biggest manufacturer in the world., In the last 2-3 years Toyota had spend hundreds of millions on the F1 team as part of their drive to be the best selling and so far they havent reaped the benefits of it at all., they are selling the most cars for now but thats more to do with the problems GM are having rather than toyota doing any better., Maybe there stuk in the old "quality over quantity" trap.,

Darwin

Toyota quality slipping? I certainly think so if the quality of paintwork on my wife's new Yaris is any way representative of that model. I brought the car back to the dealer as the lacquer was lifting in several places after three months of ownership. An 'expert' from Toyota claimed it was caked on bird**** that caused the damage. It may be possible that it was - but good God they must be using watered down nail varnish or something for the finish. Never again.

E92

The real reason why Toyota can sell more for less is because unlike the big three in the US they don't have the enormous costs of the pensions and healthcare etc that those makes have. That is a big reason why they so much more profitable. Another reason why is because GM have more brands than they know what to do with them, and Ford sell 2 completely different Focuses, they sell a Fusion in the US which is based on the old Mazda 6 and then a completely unrelated car, the Mondeo elsewhere, they don't even have standardised engines(Mazda engines are only found in Mazdas with the exception of the diesels in the 2&3).

Toyota only have themselves, Daihatsu, Scion and Lexus and that's it.

Daihatsu is a value brand, Toyota is the standard bearer, Scion is the youth/sporty brand for the US and Lexus is the premium brand. When you have too many brands, the economies of scale actually disappear, so oddly enough the best thing Ford and GM could do(Ford are doing it) is to downsize and thereby become more efficient.

bazz26

E92 wrote: »

When you have too many brands, the economies of scale actually disappear, so oddly enough the best thing Ford and GM could do(Ford are doing it) is to downsize and thereby become more efficient.

Indeed, Ford recently flogged Jaguar & Aston Martin to my knowledge. Also afaik Land Rover is "in the process" or "going to be" sold to that Indian crowd Tata.

But in the bigger scale of things alot of the reasons you gave above for Ford/GM doing so bad could be put down to bad management or poor business awareness over the years. Something which Toyota seemed to avoid.

But just to add wait to the argument that not everything Toyota does turn to gold. Their heavy investment in F1 has been generally a very expensive failure but two good things from it are that the new Lexus LF-A with a 552bhp 4.8 litre V10 test car has recently unoffically lapped the Nurburgring ring in 7 mins 24 secs and the forthcoming Supra successfor is promissing.

CyberGhost

Isn't Honda the numero uno on the reliablity scale now?


btw, if anyone has an experiece are the old Avensis models still reliable?

This ones

E92

bazz26 wrote: »

Indeed, Ford recently flogged Jaguar & Aston Martin to my knowledge. Also afaik Land Rover is "in the process" or "going to be" sold to that Indian crowd Tata.

They only flogged Aston. Jag and LR are going together. What you correctly said about LR applies to Jag too. The reason why they are both going together is because LR is very profitable and Jag ain't.

maidhc

CyberGhost wrote: »

btw, if anyone has an experiece are the old Avensis models still reliable?

Had two, hateful machines.

My opinion (for what it matters) is that modern fords are as good if not better than most.

E92

Isn't the first generation Avensis just a reskinned and rebadged Carina E?

maidhc

E92 wrote: »

Isn't the first generation Avensis just a reskinned and rebadged Carina E?

It most certainly is. There is a greater difference between the facelift mk2 focus and its immediate predecessor than there is between the Avensis and carina.

The design is crude, it is badly put together, horrendously unreliable in my case anyway, and very very thirsty.

unkel

bazz26 wrote: »

not everything Toyota does turn to gold. Their heavy investment in F1 has been generally a very expensive failure but two good things from it are that the new Lexus LF-A with a 552bhp 4.8 litre V10 test car has recently unoffically lapped the Nurburgring ring in 7 mins 24 secs

Very impressive! Anyone know if it will go into production?

bazz26

unkel wrote: »

Very impressive! Anyone know if it will go into production?

It was an unoffical lap time in a test mule but apparently it did it in 1 second faster than the new 911 GT2. :eek: It is expected to go on sale in 2010.

It is supposed to look like this:
[URL="javascript:self.close();"][/URL]

CyberGhost

maidhc wrote: »

Had two, hateful machines.

My opinion (for what it matters) is that modern fords are as good if not better than most.

Would you care to elaborate on what's exactly wrong with them please? cause I was seriously considering buying one.

ninty9er

CyberGhost wrote: »

Would you care to elaborate on what's exactly wrong with them please? cause I was seriously considering buying one.

It's already been stated on the thread that it's pretty much a Carina E, which would seem to suggest if people want to go down that route arguing against it, BUT it also means it's pretty much indestructible.

There was an issue with some of the early VVT-i engines on the facelift model and late pre-facelift. This was covered under warranty by Toyota though, so make sure there's paperwork to show this if buying a 00-02 VVT-i

bazz26

I would try and stretch to a 03 new model instead if you can. I've had both types and the new version is light years ahead of the old one.

E92

From the Hybrids - good idea or no thread, I posted this:

E92 wrote: »

Falling off bits of interior while not the end of the world don't give a very good impressions of a cars' quality.

And have a look at this
thread which is straight from the Toyota Owners' Club which points to a decline in build quality(not necessarily reliability yet though)

The International Hearld Tribune has a big article and there is no escaping the fact that standards with Toyota have indeed dropped.

Speaking from a "personal experience" which you place a huge value on, my old man's Avensis has 54,000 miles on the clock(presently) and is fast approaching 3 years old. Now he has had Corollas, Carina E and Avensis for over 20 years, and thus far the Avensis has had air conditioning problems(the air was cool instead of icy cold), Traction Control problems(the electronics don't seem to understand that spinning wheels are part of the game for traction control), it has pulled to the left, and on one occasion it wouldn't start(I actually detailed this on Motors the time it happened), then did and then wouldn't again. The previous Toyota, a Carina E managed 130,000 miles, had a rev counter problem(it was sticking), needed a new battery, new clutch, and 2 recalls about something I can't remember.

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

Very impressive! Anyone know if it will go into production?

Unkel, if you had been paying attention I had a bit about this car in my Rebirth of the Japanese Supercar thread. The LF-A is coming out in 2008.

CyberGhost

ninty9er wrote: »

It's already been stated on the thread that it's pretty much a Carina E, which would seem to suggest if people want to go down that route arguing against it, BUT it also means it's pretty much indestructible.

There was an issue with some of the early VVT-i engines on the facelift model and late pre-facelift. This was covered under warranty by Toyota though, so make sure there's paperwork to show this if buying a 00-02 VVT-i

Thanks ninty9er! I'm going for a 98-99 model, so I guess I'm covered.

bazz26 wrote: »

I would try and stretch to a 03 new model instead if you can. I've had both types and the new version is light years ahead of the old one.

Can't stretch to 03

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

Unkel, if you had been paying attention I had a bit about this car in my Rebirth of the Japanese Supercar

C'mon! There's a new Japanese concept car introduced every day of the year and all of them will sell 10,000,000 per year and will do >400km/h

It is extremely rare that an actual Japanese prototype can put down a great racing performance. Please don't mind me getting excited

JHMEG wrote: »

The LF-A is coming out in 2008.

Linky link? Same spec car as did the Ring?

unkel

CyberGhost wrote: »

I was seriously considering buying one.

Why? You want to bore yourself to death?