The Hajj

Hobart

Hi Folks,

is it possible for a non-Muslim to do the Hajj? Can a non-Muslim visit the Ka`bah? And finally what exactly is inside the black structure that Muslims walk around (7 times I think) ?

Thanks in advance.

Suff

Hobart wrote: »

is it possible for a non-Muslim to do the Hajj?

No, since its an islamic pilgrimage.

Can a non-Muslim visit the Ka`bah?

No. only Muslims are allowed to enter Mecca. its a religious city, not for tourism and sight seeing.

And finally what exactly is inside the black structure that Muslims walk around (7 times I think) ?

Nothing, its empty. the ka'bah was built by Abraham and his son ishmael (PBUT), the pagans who followed used it as a center for their idols. In Islam its used as a point for all Muslims all over the world to pray in its direction. like a meeting point for prayers.

merrionsq

Suff wrote: »

No, since its an islamic pilgrimage.

No. only Muslims are allowed to enter Mecca. its a religious city, not for tourism and sight seeing.

Nothing, its empty. the ka'bah was built by Abraham and his son ishmael (PBUT), the pagans who followed used it as a center for their idols. In Islam its used as a point for all Muslims all over the world to pray in its direction. like a meeting point for prayers.

Some points to make on this. Intersting that the fact that it is an Islamic pilgrimage would bar other people from having a look. Other similar events like Ashram or Santiago de Compostela don't seem to hung up on that sort of thing.

Interesting that only Muslims are allowed to enter Mecca. You don't see similar restrictions in the Vatican City and other places? Is it true that Pagans, Christians and Jews live in Mecca before the arrival of Islam, and in the early years of Islam.

Is there not a black stone in one of the corners of the ka'bah?

mmalaka

The inside of holy Kaaba is empty.The Kaaba was first built by Adam only a collected soil. with dates'leves and then rebuilt by Abraham and Ismael Abraham's son in the form of square building..Kaaba is the centre of this earth.It is a symbol of unity so all muslims around the world should lead their direction of praying to the Kaaba in Mecca Saudi Arabia..Muhammad pbuh renovated the Kaaba too.After that it was renovated again but the form is always the same. like now.Before the event of Israa and Mi'raj the direction of praying was to Mesjidil Aqsa in Yerrusalem,Palestine.God instructed Muhammad pbuh to pray to the direction of Kaaba after that event..In haj pilgrim muslims should pray around the Kaaba after surround it 7 times against the clock movement.
Near the Kaaba there is the Zam Zam mineral water spring which has been used by millions of haj pilgrims. for drinking and washing their part of the bodies before praying.Near the door of Kaaba there is a black stone from heaven. called hajar aswad


3D Kabah Fly Through

Kaba Infor

The Description of the Interior
of the Holy Ka'bah

merrionsq

Non-Muslim explorers like Sir Richard Francis Burton have sneaked into the Hajj to have a look in the past.

mmalaka

merrionsq wrote: »

Non-Muslim explorers like Sir Richard Francis Burton have sneaked into the Hajj to have a look in the past.

No need to do this now

u can see it live on TV

Hobart

What would be the result of a non-Muslim taking the Haj? Has this happened in the past? And what exactly is hajar aswad? Is it a meteorite?

mmalaka

Hobart wrote: »

What would be the result of a non-Muslim taking the Haj?

result from what point of view??!!!
He can not coz he is not Muslim. but if he did he will not have any result i think!!!

Hobart wrote: »

And what exactly is hajar aswad? Is it a meteorite?

it is a black stone from heaven. it was not black it was white but it become black coz of the sins of humans

Hobart

mmalaka wrote: »

result from what point of view??!!!
He can not coz he is not Muslim. but if he did he will not have any result i think!!!

Is it against the civil law? ( I understand that it is not permitted by Islam). Would a person be jailed? How does one identify another as a Muslim (in this situation)? If I was to dress in the manner of a Muslim and go along, how would I be "found out" so to speak?

it is a black stone from heaven. it was not black it was white but it become black coz of the sins of humans

I don't really understand this. Has the material been examined? Have the physical and chemical properties of this stone been examined? Could it be Iron, for example, which would appear white, and turn darker through time?

mmalaka

Hobart wrote: »

Is it against the civil law? ( I understand that it is not permitted by Islam). Would a person be jailed? How does one identify another as a Muslim (in this situation)? If I was to dress in the manner of a Muslim and go along, how would I be "found out" so to speak?

Only Muslims are allowed to Enter Makkah, u will find a check points in ur way to Makkah, Non Muslims will be directed to another road that will not go through makkah

If they find any non muslim inside Makkah they will simply send him outside Makkah thats it

Hobart wrote: »

I don't really understand this. Has the material been examined? Have the physical and chemical properties of this stone been examined? Could it be Iron, for example, which would appear white, and turn darker through time?

I am not sure if it had been examined but it is another Miracle like Zam Zam water

the_new_mr

Honestly, I don't think it would be too difficult for a non-Muslim to enter either Mecca or Medina. Having been there myself, I think it would be easy enough.

But why would a non-Muslim want to go if they knew it would be against the wishes of those there? I for one would not go to the holy place of, say, a Jew if I knew that I wasn't supposed to be there out of respect for their practices.

wes

I was always under the impression that prohibition was only only for the Grand Mosque and not allowing non-Muslims in the city was something that the Saudi government implemented.

As for the Haj, well Haj is a religious thing, if you don't believe you really aren't performing the Haj, your just going through the motions. Now I personally think if someone wished to observe they should be allowed.

Medina

Here's a picture of inside the Ka'aba
I found it on another forum

Bottle_of_Smoke

mmalaka wrote: »

Only Muslims are allowed to Enter Makkah, u will find a check points in ur way to Makkah, Non Muslims will be directed to another road that will not go through makkah

How do you prove you're a Muslim? I remember reading about Malcolm X getting questioned/delayed because he couldn't speak Arabic though he did eventually get through & then converted to Sunni Islam. I'd imagine most Muslims can't speak Arabic, outside Arab countries of course.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

But why would a non-Muslim want to go if they knew it would be against the wishes of those there? I for one would not go to the holy place of, say, a Jew if I knew that I wasn't supposed to be there out of respect for their practices.

I dont know of any other place in the world where you cannot go unless you are of a particular faith.
I always thought mecca was unique in that.

Hobbes

I think the main reason why non-muslims may be denied access is due to every muslim in the world tries to get there at least once. Two guys in my work had to book years in advance to get there.

I dont know of any other place in the world where you cannot go unless you are of a particular faith.

There are other places. One that springs to mind is a place in Greece in the mountains for Greek Orthodox. From a tourist standpoint it looks fantastic but your not allowed go there unless your Greek Orthodox and are on a retreat (I forget the name of the place).

Schuhart

wes wrote: »

I was always under the impression that prohibition was only only for the Grand Mosque and not allowing non-Muslims in the city was something that the Saudi government implemented.

You seem to be right. Relevant article here. It seems to boil down to how this verse from the Quran is interpreted

O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near Al-Masjid Al-Haram (at Makkah) after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.(At-Tawbah 9: 28)

The article lays out the usual kind of arguments that seem to surround interpretation of texts. According to the article, most scholars seem to say the prohibition doesn't exclude Christians and Jews from the Grand Mosque. At the other extreme, a few say the verse means only Muslims should be permitted in any mosque.

But the middle ground seems to be that only Muslims should enter or 'come near' the Grand Mosque in Mecca. Saudi law, in applying this prohibition, seems to take an extreme interpretation of ‘come near’.

At the end of the day, it’s their holy city. I suppose they can decide to let in who they like.

DinoBot

Schuhart wrote: »

At the other extreme, a few say the verse means only Muslims should be permitted in any mosque.

I recall a conversation I had with one of the staff at the mosque in clonskeagh. He said that in his option all non-muslims should be told to have a shower before coming to the mosque.

To me it showed how much the impression of non Muslims being "unclean" is in the minds of Muslims. I wish that was the only example of this I came across.

Hobart

the_new_mr wrote: »

But why would a non-Muslim want to go if they knew it would be against the wishes of those there? I for one would not go to the holy place of, say, a Jew if I knew that I wasn't supposed to be there out of respect for their practices.

I'm not a muslim. I'm not really aligned to any particular faith. I would like to "experience" the Hajj because I have a tremendous respect for the people that do it. I also think the emotion and devotion shown by Muslims on this journey is inspirational. The last thing I would like to do is insult another persons beliefs or cause affront to them.

I'm just curious as to why a non-muslim experiencing this holy and moving ritual would cause such offence?

wes

Hobart wrote: »

I'm not a muslim. I'm not really aligned to any particular faith. I would like to "experience" the Hajj because I have a tremendous respect for the people that do it. I also think the emotion and devotion shown by Muslims on this journey is inspirational. The last thing I would like to do is insult another persons beliefs or cause affront to them.

I'm just curious as to why a non-muslim experiencing this holy and moving ritual would cause such offence?

Well, I see nothing offensive personally. From my POV, the issue boils down to the Haj being a religious obligation on Muslims. Only so many people can go each year to perform it, and a lot of Muslims wait there whole lives to do the Haj. Basically, there is barely enough room for the Muslims who wish to perform Haj, now if there was room, I suppose allowing a Non-Muslims to join in, wouldn't be a bad idea.

wes

DinoBot wrote: »

I recall a conversation I had with one of the staff at the mosque in clonskeagh. He said that in his option all non-muslims should be told to have a shower before coming to the mosque.

To me it showed how much the impression of non Muslims being "unclean" is in the minds of Muslims. I wish that was the only example of this I came across.

Well, what the person said was clearly very bigoted and a horrible thing to say.

Also, just to point out. When Muslim go to the Mosque, many engage in a ritual cleaning, either before or when we arrive.

**EDIT**

We do this before prayers at home as well as before prayers when we go to the Mosque.

Schuhart

Hobart wrote: »

I'm just curious as to why a non-muslim experiencing this holy and moving ritual would cause such offence?

In fairness, the pilgrimage to Mecca is one of the core pillars of Islam so I suppose its not surprising to find some taboos around it. For the sake of argument, the Roman Catholic Church would say that non-Catholics cannot take Communion. Hence, if a Muslim was to wonder what one of those little consecrated wafers tastes like, he’d just be told he couldn’t have one.

If you feel a need to be surrounded by people doing something religious, there are other options. For the sake of argument, I know of agnostics doing the pilgrimage to Lough Derg just as a spiritual exercise. Lough Derg states itself to welcome people of all faiths and none, so you wouldn't have to worry about either someone feeling your presence was an affront or even just that you were taking up space needed by a devout believer.

Of course, the sunshine might not be guaranteed in Donegal.

the_new_mr

DinoBot wrote:

I recall a conversation I had with one of the staff at the mosque in clonskeagh. He said that in his option all non-muslims should be told to have a shower before coming to the mosque.

What a load of rubbish!! Whoever said that is in pure ignorance! Very upsetting.

Hobart wrote:

I'm just curious as to why a non-muslim experiencing this holy and moving ritual would cause such offence?

Well, it's not that I would be offended or anything. Reversing the situation, it would just be a feeling that I shouldn't be there as it's almost making light of the actions of others in a way. Anyway, I guess the point that it's crowded enough these days is one to consider too. I suppose if someone was to put their mind to it, nothing would stop them.

Schuhart wrote:

If you feel a need to be surrounded by people doing something religious, there are other options. For the sake of argument, I know of agnostics doing the pilgrimage to Lough Derg just as a spiritual exercise. Lough Derg states itself to welcome people of all faiths and none, so you wouldn't have to worry about either someone feeling your presence was an affront or even just that you were taking up space needed by a devout believer.

I'd say that would be interesting enough. I remember a few years ago that a Catholic friend of mine once joked that he'd pay for the thing if I'd go and I was worried that they would think that I was taking the mickey. Now that I see that it's open to all in that way, I might take him up on it

Hobart

Schuhart wrote: »

In fairness, the pilgrimage to Mecca is one of the core pillars of Islam so I suppose its not surprising to find some taboos around it.

Pillars of Islam or not, I think it's right that participation, and the reasons for same, are questioned.

For the sake of argument, the Roman Catholic Church would say that non-Catholics cannot take Communion. Hence, if a Muslim was to wonder what one of those little consecrated wafers tastes like, he’d just be told he couldn’t have one.

I don't really see the comparrison here tbh. For the sake of arguments a certain satanic cult would say that one cannot take part in the killing of a goat without first promising one's soul (if you believe that you have a soul) to sam himself. There are a billion of "for the sake of argument" type comparissons. It's not my intention to compare, and it was not my intention when I initially asked the question. Comparison is moot and silly tbh.

If you feel a need to be surrounded by people doing something religious,

I don't

there are other options.

I know

For the sake of argument,

Here we go with "for the sake of argument" again

I know of agnostics doing the pilgrimage to Lough Derg just as a spiritual exercise. Lough Derg states itself to welcome people of all faiths and none, so you wouldn't have to worry about either someone feeling your presence was an affront or even just that you were taking up space needed by a devout believer.

I not "worried" as such, more curious. I'm asking because of that curiosity. To be honest if I was interested in a pilgrimage (denominational or not) I would probably have asked a different question in a different forum. I'm not interested in pilgrimage in a general sense, just the Hajj, and hence my question here in this forum.

Schuhart

Hobart wrote: »

Pillars of Islam or not, I think it's right that participation, and the reasons for same, are questioned.

But I rather think its position as a pillar of the faith is what makes it significant. I'm not convinced that you've thought that out.

Hobart wrote: »

If you feel a need to be surrounded by people doing something religious,

I don't

While I'm not suggesting for a minute that you have any obligation to seem coherent to anyone else, your post leaves me puzzled and this exchange illustrates why. What you've expressed is a desire to 'experience' the Hajj. That simply is a desire to be surrounded by people doing something religious.

I'd stress - whatever is going through your mind is entirely your affair. In your own mind there may be no conflict between some kind of religious voyeurism and respect. But, FWIW, I'm left with a feeling that you're chasing some kind of an illusion.

Hobart

Schuhart wrote: »

But I rather think its position as a pillar of the faith is what makes it significant. I'm not convinced that you've thought that out.

Really? Is that really what you think? I'm surprised at that thought of yours. It's not some hippie fest around some lake, singing "come by ahhh..." that I'm talking about. It's exactly because of it's size/draw/significance that I actually enquire about it.

While I'm not suggesting for a minute that you have any obligation to seem coherent to anyone else, your post leaves me puzzled and this exchange illustrates why.

I'd like to take this point that you attempt to make in isolation. You previously suggested to me that a need of mine might be "a need to be surrounded by people doing something religious". I responded that "I don't" feel that need.

I honestly think that I could not have expressed my answer more forthrightly or honestly. Let me re-iterate, just in case you think that there is some ambiguity in my explanation. My need is not one to be surrounded by people doing something religious. Ok? I honestly do not think that I have any "need" that would require any religious intervention.

In fact, I don't think I expressed any "need" at all in relation to this. Please don't make it something that it obviously is not.

Remember one's religion is simply that. One's own religion.

What you've expressed is a desire to 'experience' the Hajj. That simply is a desire to be surrounded by people doing something religious.

That simply is rubbish, when you can no more feel what I feel than you can think what I think. Don't be so arrogant as to try to profess to me what a Hajj experience would be to me. You simply have no idea.

I'd stress - whatever is going through your mind is entirely your affair. In your own mind there may be no conflict between some kind of religious voyeurism and respect. But, FWIW, I'm left with a feeling that you're chasing some kind of an illusion.

And you are entirely entitled to stress whatever you find needs stress. I suggest that you lay off the bar room psychoanalytics and stop your fingers writing cheques, that your mind cannot cash.

Schuhart

Hobart wrote: »

It's exactly because of it's size/draw/significance that I actually enquire about it.

I’ve a feeling that mixing size with significance means you’re missing the point.

Hobart wrote: »

Don't be so arrogant as to try to profess to me what a Hajj experience would be to me. You simply have no idea.

But I don’t have to presume – you seem to have forgotten that you told us why you wanted to do it

Hobart wrote: »

I would like to "experience" the Hajj because I have a tremendous respect for the people that do it. I also think the emotion and devotion shown by Muslims on this journey is inspirational.

Are you suggesting the emotion and devotion that you say you want to feed off is unrelated to religion?

You’re just confused, lad. And rapidly ceasing to make sense. Which, again, is not to say that I see any obligation on you to make sense.

Hobart wrote: »

I suggest that you lay off the bar room psychoanalytics and stop your fingers writing cheques, that your mind cannot cash.

I’m sure there’s a thread somewhere where this sentence makes sense.

Unfortunately, this is not that thread.

Hobart

Schuhart wrote: »

I’ve a feeling that mixing size with significance means you’re missing the point.

I don't really understand the significance of your statement above. It has no real bearing of what a pilgrimage would mean to me as an individual.

But I don’t have to presume – you seem to have forgotten that you told us why you wanted to do it. Are you suggesting the emotion and devotion that you say you want to feed off is unrelated to religion?

...again you fall into a trap where you mix the religious up with the spiritual. Don't be so arrogant to presume my reasons. Taken in it's basic form religion, by definition, would require some form of piety. If you knew me, which you do not, this would be probably the furthest thoughts from my mind in any spiritual experience. I would consider myself first and foremost spiritual. Being religious is probably somewhere on that spiritual road, but it's far from what I am. I hope you can comprehend that premise, I really have no intention of explaning my reasons or myself again to you. It's not what I actually started this thread for.

You’re just confused, lad. And rapidly ceasing to make sense.[sic] to me

I fixed that quotation for you.

Which, again, is not to say that I see any obligation on you to make sense.I’m sure there’s a thread somewhere where this sentence makes sense.

I'll temper my final comment to you in the knowledge that you have already been twice infracted in recent times for being a tad idiotic. My intention is not to educate you as to my motives, reasons or agenda's behind my beliefs. My intention is not to get into a religious versus spiritual debate with you, or to have you psychoanalise my personality or beliefs.

The statement you quoted from me, while obtuse, simply means that I believe one should think about what one says before one allows ones mouth and hands to do the typing for them. You obviously have no idea as to my motives, and if I was you lad, I would stop trying to get into an argument with somebody about a subject that you obvioulsy know nothing about, i.e. "my motives".

I hope that makes a bit more sense to you.

If you would like a debate on my motives, or even to discusss the spiritual versus the religious, I'm more than willing to entertain you. This is not the place, nor the thread for it.

the_new_mr

Well, I'm a little curious to know your motives. Would you mind giving us a brief overview?

Also, although I do acknowledge the difference between religion and spirituality, I don't think the two should be separated. You can be spiritual without being religious but I don't think you should be religious without being spiritual.

Hobart

the_new_mr wrote: »

Well, I'm a little curious to know your motives. Would you mind giving us a brief overview?

Not at all. As I have previously stated I am not aligned to any particular faith. In recent times I have found myself questioning a lot of things from both a personal and global perspective. I have also begun to question the way some people live their lives and the fallout that various choices we make have.

I have done quite a lot of reading on different aspects of religions, beliefs and faiths, and one area of faith I find myself drawn to is that of Islam.

Now the point of this thread is not for me to try and get on a plane, arrive in Mecca on a Tuesday and come back a convert on Friday, I'm not that naive to be honest.

The thread was born out of two different things I recently experienced. One was an old documentary which followed a number of believers through the pilgrimage and I also read a book called "Getting the Best out of HAJJ" which I found a fascinating read.

That, coupled with my reflections, have made me curious.

Also, although I do acknowledge the difference between religion and spirituality, I don't think the two should be separated. You can be spiritual without being religious but I don't think you should be religious without being spiritual.

That is exactly my point. The poster I was responding to seemed intent on putting some religious lean on my motives, when nothing could be further from the truth, I would consider myself spiritual, without considering myself religious, there is a difference.

Also this whole idea that I have some "need to be surrounded by people doing something religious" is ignorance...but understandable.

Schuhart

Hobart wrote: »

Don't be so arrogant to presume my reasons.

This is Alice in Wonderland stuff. I’ve already pointed out that I’m not presuming, as you’ve stated your reasons.

Hobart wrote: »

I'll temper my final comment to you in the knowledge that you have already been twice infracted in recent times for being a tad idiotic.

I take it this is your hamfisted attempt to shoot the messenger.

Hobart wrote: »

The poster I was responding to seemed intent on putting some religious lean on my motives, when nothing could be further from the truth, I would consider myself spiritual, without considering myself religious, there is a difference.

An attempt to answer what you wish I had said, rather than what I actually said. Can I point out that you have stated you wish to 'experience' the Hajj. The Hajj is, using your language, an expression of religious piety. Hence, you are saying you wish to experience ceremonies that express someone else's piety. This is not what I'm presuming - this follows directly from what you have said.

You prefer the religious piety on display at the Hajj to that on display at Lough Derg - which is clearly your preference. You will notice that I mentioned Lough Derg as, unlike the Hajj, it involves a display of religious piety where non-believers are invited. Hence, you will notice, I am totally aware that you are expressing an interest in 'experiencing' someone else's religious ceremony, but do not regard yourself as a believer. Hence, you will appreciate, there is no confusion about what you have stated to be the source of your interest.

Incidently, does your defensiveness over your motives being scrutinised give you any feeling for why some (but by no means all) people who regard the Hajj as a solemn religious duty might have a problem you gawping at them while they perform it? Would that make you feel that you should drop any intention, however vague, of travelling to Mecca? (As always, I’m not suggesting you’ve any reason to feel a need to tell us).

the_new_mr

Hobart wrote:

I have done quite a lot of reading on different aspects of religions, beliefs and faiths, and one area of faith I find myself drawn to is that of Islam.
...
That, coupled with my reflections, have made me curious.

I'd be interested in hearing more about your reflections and what it is in Islam that you find yourself drawn to. Care to divulge a little?