pilotsfor911truth.org

oscarBravo

There was some discussion (understandably) removed from the links thread, so I'd like to pose a question here.

In the deleted discussion it was put forward as undisputable fact that flight 77 was too high to have hit the light poles. The obvious conclusion to draw from this is that the plane didn't hit the Pentagon.

Leaving aside (but only for the moment) the obvious question of where it went, it begs the question: where did NTSB get the FDR from which the above conclusion was drawn?

Nick_oliveri

Well, i dont understand much of it, but i hope this will help you come to your conclusions. Threads from both sides.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread284390/pg1
(also search for member Craig ranke CIT re the pentagon theories)

and
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66047

oscarBravo

Cheers for the links Nick, ploughing through those now. I actually do understand most (if not all) of it.

meglome

I've tried, I've really tried. But my brain is broken

I was pretty convinced a plane hit the pentagon anyway, seeing as hundreds of people saw it and I saw footage of the plane wreckage myself. But the guy over on randi.org has clarified it even more. I just don't see how anyone can still argue an American Airlines Boeing didn't hit that building.

oscarBravo

Still working my way through those links, and I think I have a fair picture of what's going on. I'll post my conclusions when I'm finished.

One quote jumped out at me, and I had to post it here:

johnlear wrote:

You don't need all of that scrapple. [scrapple is another poster on the forum - oB] All you need to do is listen to me. There was no Boeing 757. It was a holograph. The holograph was projected at the same time a Predator or other missile carrier hit the Pentagon. The Flight Data Recorder tabular data was from a Boeing 757 that flew the faked profile some other place and at some other time. The pilots that flew the faked profile were professionals and current on the Boeing 757. It was a holograph. That is why there were no Boeing 757 parts inside or outside the Pentagon. No Boeing 757 overflew the Pentagon. There simply was no Boeing 757. And there were no bodies inside the Pentagon because there was no Boeing 757.

Where did Flight #77 go? Where did the passengers go? Sorry, I don't know. I wasn't the magician. All I can tell you is that there was no Boeing 757 in, around, through, on top of, into or out of, over, between, behind or near the Pentagon except in holograph form. It is a total impossibility that a Boeing 757 flew into the face of the Pentagon and caused so little damage. It is also a total impossibility that a Boeing 757 overflew the Pentagon after faking a crash and landed nearby or elsewhere without being seen by somebody.

If you aren't ready to accept the above scenario then you aren't ready for the truth.

Yes, it's that John Lear. Leaving aside the fact that a holograph is actually a handwritten document (I assume he's talking about a hologram), this illustrates the level of downright nuttiness that's being proposed.

On the whole hologram idea - I have a decent working knowledge of holography, and I'm unaware of any technology that can create the illusion of a full-scale, 3-dimensional solid object in broad daylight, visually correct from multiple angles, and moving at several hundred miles per hour. Can someone who believes this is what happened point me at an example of such technology?

Nick_oliveri

Basically it wouldn't be wise to even read his posts. I dont mind the lad (teh lols) but he seems to like hiijacking the 9/11 threads with the hologram bullsh/t, then disregard any post with any evidence against his theory.

meglome

I love a good story, I'm always reading but its hard not to just laugh at some of these hologram claims. The unfortunate thing is some of these guys are serious but I keep hoping they aren't.

humanji

oscarBravo wrote: »

Leaving aside the fact that a holograph is actually a handwritten document (I assume he's talking about a hologram)

Actually, what he was saying makes more sense when it's a handwritten document being projected

lezizi

You should download the Power of Nightmares, I think there are 4 parts, one is about 9/11 it goes into detail about the penetgon and that a plane couldn;t have hit it, they have pretty good footage. Its really good documentary

oscarBravo

I really couldn't be bothered. I've read a lot of arguments about the data that leads people to conclude a plane didn't hit the Pentagon, and it's all - without exception - either bad data, or being misinterpreted. I simply don't have time at the moment to watch videos that draw dubious conclusions from bad data.

What I do (sort of) have time to do is read well-presented, well-thought-out, properly sourced arguments. One of the best examples of this I've seen recently was the paper linked by Diogenes, Ryan Mackey's On Debunking 9/11 Debunking. It took a couple of days, but it was an extremely informative and worthwhile read.

I strongly urge those who feel they can learn all they need to know from YouTube videos to read the linked paper, and understand what's actually involved in putting together a credible argument in favour of your chosen position.

As to the assertion that a plane couldn't have hit the Pentagon: a plane did hit the Pentagon, as witnessed by dozens (hundreds?) of people. Flight 77 took off, and didn't land. An American Airlines Boeing 757 was seen flying low and fast towards the Pentagon. There was an explosive impact. Several pieces of a Boeing 757 were subsequently found in and around the site of the crash. The "black boxes" were recovered from the scene.

There's a straightforward explanation for all of the above: Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. If there is information that runs contrary to the above, there's almost certainly a simple (or possibly a complex) explanation for it.

oscarBravo

On the original topic: it has been asserted that Flight 77 couldn't have hit the Pentagon, because the FDR (flight data recorder) data shows the plane was too high just before impact. My reading of the situation:

• The whole debate is based on data allegedly released by the NTSB in response to a FOIA request, to just one person, in the UK. Apparently nobody else who has asked for the same information has received it.
• The person who allegedly received it claims to have a raw binary dump of the complete DFDR data for the entire flight.
• The raw data can't be decoded without knowing the precise frame layout of the binary data.
• The person who has the alleged FDR data claims to have received the necessary information from an anonymous source, who will remain anonymous because to be known to have released this information would cost them their job.

That's background. So far, I'm firmly in the "reasonable doubt" camp - I'm not saying the above didn't happen, but I wouldn't be shocked to find it's a crock.

The conclusions from the secretly decoded data are:

• At the last recorded sample, the plane was about 400' above the Pentagon, according to the pressure altimeter (the plane's primary altitude-measuring instrument.
• The radar altimeter shows a different reading - I can't remember what it was, but it was somewhat higher.

This is the basis, as far as I can tell, for the assertion that NTSB data proves Flight 77 never hit the Pentagon. Leaving aside the dubiousness of the data's provenance, there are some problems with the assertion: first, the pressure altimeter isn't calibrated for speeds of over 580mph at sea level. It's quite simply outside the instrument's envelope for normal operations, so it can't be taken as a reliable indication of anything. Second, the plane had been descending very steeply at that point, and it's a well-known fact that a pressure altimeter lags under those conditions; in other words, it reads higher than is actually the case.

The radar altimeter is a different issue. First, in the initially-published data, the radar altimeter data was listed as non-operational. Then someone appears to have discovered radar altimeter data after all. Assuming the data is valid, there is a wide-open question over the timing of the data. Exactly when was the radar altimeter data recorded? If it was several seconds before impact, then it's perfectly feasible.

There has been a suggestion that the data published by NTSB has been doctored to try to fit the "official story". I'm skeptical, but if it's the case, then the data quite simply doesn't prove anything at all. Either it's vanilla data from the FDR of Flight 77, in which case any apparent discrepancy has a technical explanation, or it's not, in which case it has to be discarded in its entirety.

As is often the case with conspiracy theories, what's missing is a single coherent hypothesis. Different people ask different questions (and, as a rule, not particularly good questions), but nobody puts together a hypothesis that says "here's an explanation that fits all the observable facts". The closest thing to that is the bizarre ravings of John Lear, and even he can't explain what happened to the 757 that took off from Dulles that morning.

Nick_oliveri

lezizi wrote: »

You should download the Power of Nightmares, I think there are 4 parts, one is about 9/11 it goes into detail about the penetgon and that a plane couldn;t have hit it, they have pretty good footage. Its really good documentary

I think you are getting your names mixed up. The power of Nightmares is about the rise of the Neo-Con's and "Al-Queda" and how America have overstated the threat from them. There is three parts. Only some of it deals with 9/11, and it doesnt delve into conspiracy theories.

Mahatma coat

OK so there were 'hundreds' of witnesses who saw a plane, how come they cant release any of the footage of a plane impacting the building, thats all I want, show me one of the many videotapes they confiscated from around the place that recorded what actualy hapened that day.

I remember seeing one video a few years ago from the servo across the road from the Pentagon and that definitley did not look like a boeing 757, it looked like a misile.

unfortunatley I'm back in Ireland now so I'm on dinosaurdialup and just dont have the patience to search youtube for the footage.

alls I want to see is some of the footage of an actual plane hitting the building, if a plane hit the building then the videos they confiscated will show this, otherwise I will remain skeptical.