Irish Outhalves

Benny Cake

Following Ulsters decision to drop Paddy Wallace last night AND eddie o'sullivans obivous (and probably well founded) lack of faith in the ulsterman i would be interested to see who folks reckon our top 3 outhalves are, to get the ball rolling my 3 are:

1. O'Gara
2. Ian Humphries
3. Sexton/Paul Warwick


Just wanted to throw this out there and see what people reckon.....

Stev_o

D_Red_Army wrote: »

Following Ulsters decision to drop Paddy Wallace last night AND eddie o'sullivans obivous (and probably well founded) lack of faith in the ulsterman i would be interested to see who folks reckon our top 3 outhalves are, to get the ball rolling my 3 are:

1. O'Gara
2. Ian Humphries
3. Sexton/Paul Warwick


Just wanted to throw this out there and see what people reckon.....

Ian Humphries has been played with injuries hasnt played for Leicester for a good 3 months now though from what they say he is a decent player.

Im not a huge fan of Warwick id be more in favour of Sexton he had a very good Churchill cup and he is a solid kicker he just needs to be eased more into Leinster and then eventually Ireland but that wont be happening until Ireland go touring and thats a fact

randomer

The one you are forgetting about is Andy Dunne. He has always had huge potential, but has suffered with some bad injuries.

In the past three games for Connacht he has been outstanding.

Funkstard

randomer wrote: »

The one you are forgetting about is Andy Dunne. He has always had huge potential, but has suffered with some bad injuries.

In the past three games for Connacht he has been outstanding.

He had his chance last year with Leinster...I forget who against but he started and the conditions were absolutely terrible; no outhalf could have done well. Didn't start after that if I remember? Good to see he's doing well with Connacht.

dc69

sexton is looking a quality out half,mine would be

O'gara-1
Sexton-2
Humphries jr-3
Wallace-4

randomer

dc69 wrote: »

sexton is looking a quality out half,mine would be

O'gara-1
Sexton-2
Humphries jr-3
Wallace-4

I am a big fan of Sexton, but he won't get enough game time playing for Leinster.

Santa Claus

randomer wrote: »

The one you are forgetting about is Andy Dunne. He has always had huge potential, but has suffered with some bad injuries.

In the past three games for Connacht he has been outstanding.

I'd definitely rate Dunne. He was never going to get much game time with Felipe holding the number 10 spot at Leinster but he played some terrific games for Old Bevedere in the AIL.
From some of the running he has done in Connacht you can see that he learnt a lot from Felipe in his time understudying him in Donnybrook.

He won the Parker Challenge cup with Quins before heading to bath when Quins got relegated and he was challenging Olly barkley for his place there.

I'd like to see him brought into the squad for 6 nations if his connacht form continues to be as good as it has been so far but given Eddie's habit of ignoring Connacht players he's more likely to be included in a summer tour or Churchill cup team

EdgarAllenPoo

Does this not sort of tie in with the problem of having foreign players in key positions in the provinces? If Dr. Phil wasn't at Leinster Sexton would get more of a shot and the Irish team would be better for it.

With Leinster pretty much done in european cup rugby this year I'd like to see them split the Magners duties between Sexton and Dr. Phil a bit more evenly (form willing of course).

Seeing as Ireland missed out on Shane Geraghty are there any other Irish qualified players (not necessarily 10) that Ireland should look at?

Paul Warwick isn't qualified for Ireland is he?

Podge_irl

GDM wrote: »

Paul Warwick isn't qualified for Ireland is he?

No, he played for either Australia A or 7s (can't remember which).

kermitdfrog

Warwick is not Irish qualified, and never will be, played for Aus A.

Sexton has gotten a fair bit of time at Leinster this season, and will continue to do so in all likelihood. Certainly looks the most likely successor to O'Gara.

Does this not sort of tie in with the problem of having foreign players in key positions in the provinces? If Dr. Phil wasn't at Leinster Sexton would get more of a shot and the Irish team would be better for it.

It's a question of balance. If Contepomi wasn't at Leinster the last few years, the side would have suffered, and the backs wouldn't have been playing as well as they were, which benefited Ireland. If Williams hadn't gone to Munster, who knows how the likes of Leamy would have done? Or if Le Roux and Wright weren't doing so well for Leinster now, would Cullen, Jackman, MOK, Heaslip, Jennings, or Gleesonbe playing as well, or would Healy have anyone to learn from?

Nothingcompares

Where/how does jeremy staunton fit into the equation?

Stev_o

Nothingcompares wrote: »

Where/how does jeremy staunton fit into the equation?

Hasnt been playing much with Irish [only 2 games ] and really he wont be as Catt and Geraghty will always get the nod ahead of him. He's a goner and wont get another cap.

toomevara

Niall O'Connor of Ulster had a reasonable enough game for 60 against the Ospreys in Ravenhill on Friday night. His field and place kicking is good although his decision making was at times poor and more than a little naive. Might be one to watch in the future. Apparently Humphries has taken him under his wing.

Stev_o

toomevara wrote: »

Niall O'Connor of Ulster had a reasonable enough game for 60 against the Ospreys in Ravenhill on Friday night. His field and place kicking is good although his decision making was at times poor and more than a little naive. Might be one to watch in the future. Apparently Humphries has taken him under his wing.

Stands about 15 meters deep and no no for all outhalves if he sorts that out then maybe.

John_C

On a point of informaton;

GDM wrote: »

With Leinster pretty much done in european cup rugby this year I'd like to see them split the Magners duties between Sexton and Dr. Phil a bit more evenly (form willing of course).

Sexton has played all ML games except one.

EdgarAllenPoo

Was that not because Dr. Phil was either playing in the RWC, sick or back in Argentina? I know of one match were Sexton played 10 and Contepomi played 12 but that's it so far.

randomer

GDM wrote: »

Was that not because Dr. Phil was either playing in the RWC, sick or back in Argentina? I know of one match were Sexton played 10 and Contepomi played 12 but that's it so far.

Was that the game against Munster? When O'Driscoll went off, Sexton came on and slotted in at outhalf. Contepomi moved to centre.

Timothy Bryce

randomer wrote: »

Was that the game against Munster? When O'Driscoll went off, Sexton came on and slotted in at outhalf. Contepomi moved to centre.

I think this is the best solution for Leinster - Contepomi played great in the centre during the RWC but there's a big difference between having Hernandez and Sexton playing inside!

Podge_irl

The only problem with playing 10.Sexton and 12.Contempomi would be that there would be no Irish inside centres playing regularly in that position.

MikeHoncho

Podge_irl wrote: »

The only problem with playing 10.Sexton and 12.Contempomi would be that there would be no Irish inside centres playing regularly in that position.

I think with 10 being the much more pivotal position it is more important that we get Sexton playing regularly. There are still plenty of Irish players who have expereince playing 12 at the highest level (Darcy, Horgan, Trimble etc)

Timothy Bryce

MikeHoncho wrote: »

I think with 10 being the much more pivotal position it is more important that we get Sexton playing regularly. There are still plenty of Irish players who have expereince playing 12 at the highest level (Darcy, Horgan, Trimble etc)

Anytime Horgan has played at centre he's had an absolute mare! ....and don't get me started on Trimble!

Podge_irl

MikeHoncho wrote: »

There are still plenty of Irish players who have expereince playing 12 at the highest level (Darcy, Horgan, Trimble etc)

Horgan has been terrible the last few times he has played 12 for Leinster and Ireland. I don't think Trimble has ever played 12 has he? His passing would certainly leave a lot to be desired in that position. Which leaves D'Arcy, who's already out of form at 12, moving him to wing will hardly help that. I think it would be the better option for Leinster mind you, just not so much for Ireland.

dc69

horgan has been **** imo for ages,rob kearney is looking good and when fitzgerald is in the centre of the pitch he looks promising.for the six nations we should start developing a youth squad,we arent gona win it anyway so why not

heres my back line for 08 6 nations

15-Murphy
14-kearney
13-Bod
12-Fitzgerald
11-Darcy
10-Ogara
9-Redden

subs Horgan,Dempsey,Trimble

murphys for me is plain better than dempsey in every aspect except catching the ball,and he is very good at that anyway!

LeeroyJones

I think Sexton should be ROG's understudy with the aim of having him experienced enough to start 10 for 2011 and ideally before, leaving ROG to play 2nd string 10. At 34(ROG at WC2011) his legs wont take him through 80mins week after week but could play a hugely important role in perhaps coming on with 20 or so mins left to ping the ball in the corners and frustrate an opposition. Not that Sexton wont be able to see out 80mins(he's looking quality), just nice to have a quality/experienced replacement if needed!

With regards 12's, Johne Murphy at Leicester is looking great-must not be ignored like many Irish who ply their trade outside the provinces. Mainly a full-back but i think he has come on for Hipkiss in the past.

bleg

in fairness, dowling is the best playing wing in the country at the moment, going on form he'd be in the back line.

kermitdfrog

bleg wrote: »

in fairness, dowling is the best playing wing in the country at the moment, going on form he'd be in the back line.

If you're judging purely on effort and application, absolutely, but that's about the only way. I fear the day we see Dowling in an Irish jersey. Can't fault the guyswillingness and hunger this season (last year was another story), but he hasn't the class or ability to make it at international level, and wouldn't play in most HEC teams backine. Kearney, couple of brainfarts aside, is the form back three player without doubt.

15-Murphy
14-kearney
13-Bod
12-Fitzgerald
11-Darcy
10-Ogara
9-Redden

Murphy over Dempsey? Or even Kearney? No way, Dempsey was in great form before his injury, Kearney's done very well there, and Murphy's confidence is shot (see him being pegged back by Horgan), plus he's a better winger anyway - international fullback he ain't. Fitzgerald at 12? He'd be destroyed. Whatever about him eventually being a 13, he's not got the experience nor the physical strength to play 12 in the 6N. I'd like to see D'arcy on the wing, but for Leinster, because they have Contepomi. There's no 12 good enough to take D'Arcy's place for Ireland. If you have to mess around the centre's (and with D'Arcy's form we may have to), I'd maybe see 12 BOD, 13 Trimble, but then again Trimble's hardly setting the word alight at the minute (hampered by those around him in fairness). I could see a Dempsey/Carney/Kearney back three, though I doubt it'll happen. Have to hope two of Carney, Fitzgerald, Murphy and Kearney are in great form come the 6N, because there's no way Horgan should be playing.

I think Reddan/ROG is a given, but I'd like to see Sexton on the bench, and Stringer over Boss as the backup scrummie(not a fan, but he's back to his form of 3/4 season ago, rather than his arm waving nonsense of the last 2 years).

Sangre

Man, I'd love if Cipriani had an Irish granny. The guy is the definition of raw talent.

kermitdfrog

Cipriani, Lamb, Geraghty, Flood, all with huge potential, on top of the likes of Wilkinson and the current crop. While we get, eh, Paddy Wallace, maybe Sexton or O'Connor in time, Staunton, Jeremy Manning, the younger Humphreys.... no competition. Greedy basterds!

dc69

kermitdfrog wrote: »

Cipriani, Lamb, Geraghty, Flood, all with huge potential, on top of the likes of Wilkinson and the current crop. While we get, eh, Paddy Wallace, maybe Sexton or O'Connor in time, Staunton, Jeremy Manning, the younger Humphreys.... no competition. Greedy basterds!

i bet it was that bloody conor oshea that stole geraghty from us,he played for ireland up to under 18's i think

GreenHell

Geraghty was let slip, fault lies with EOS.

Sexton would seem to have a good future, if he can get regular game time with Leinster, but that game time would be at the expense of Conteponi, are Leinster ready for that?

Manning is Irish qualified this year, I think if he could apply himself we'd see him for the talent he is.

Ian Humphries will hopefull start to shine soon as well. Is he two years in english premiership now?

Amazotheamazing

Manning is Irish qualified now, but seems to have upset Kidney. Despite playing well for Munster and Cork Con this season he doesn't seem to be in the immediate plans. A season of AIL will do him good, but he should still get a few ML games just to see how he's progressing.

I think it's time to stop looking for Staunton and Paddy Wallace, neither will ever be the players we hoped they would be, though hopefully both have great club careers ahead of them. We should be focussing on Manning, Keatley, Durcan, O'Connor and especially Sexton.

Amazotheamazing

GreenHell wrote: »

Geraghty was let slip, fault lies with EOS.

EOS tried to get Geraghty, he turned down A caps for Ireland. I'm not a fan of EOS but this one isn't EOS' fault.

GreenHell

If you were playing premiership rugby week in week out an A cap for ireland is a bit of cop out, players like him should have blooded in tours to Argentina and Japan. Geraghty could have been our backup out half for the world cup.

I do think that A caps are important but when better oppertunities were available to bring him into the Irish setup, they should have been used. With A caps for Humphries, Sexton, Manning etc

Complete agreement on your Staunton and Wallace point..

Luckycharm

Manning is dreadful, he is too small, his kicking is dire and he cannot run a backline- how many tries has munster scored with him at 10?

Sexton has improved but his place kicking is not good enough yet for the highest level he needs a Dr phil outside him to take the pressure off him would like to see a leinster backline of sexton, dr phil, bod, d'arcy on the wing, kearney other wing and dempsey fullback until fitz matures.
I would like to see Keatley given a go somewhere as he looked talented when I saw him play for the under 20s.

Dunne is average he was dreadful for leinster when he played for them and is a bit of journeyman.

Warwick played 7's for oz and is not elgible.

Not seen O'connor play.

Humphries og - his defence is as bad as his brothers and his place kicking is poor.

Wallace like the rest of ulster team lacking confidence and defence is dire.

Hmm looks like ROG is incumbent due to lack of competition :eek:

GreenHell

D'Arcy on the wing! Such a sensible suggestion could only lead to disaster..

Sexton needs game time.

I've a feeling Manning has blown his chance with Munster, hopefully he'll get a run against Connacht.

Amazotheamazing

Luckycharm wrote: »

Manning is dreadful, he is too small, his kicking is dire and he cannot run a backline- how many tries has munster scored with him at 10?

Sexton has improved but his place kicking is not good enough yet for the highest level he needs a Dr phil outside him to take the pressure off him would like to see a leinster backline of sexton, dr phil, bod, d'arcy on the wing, kearney other wing and dempsey fullback until fitz matures.
I would like to see Keatley given a go somewhere as he looked talented when I saw him play for the under 20s.

Dunne is average he was dreadful for leinster when he played for them and is a bit of journeyman.

Warwick played 7's for oz and is not elgible.

Not seen O'connor play.

Humphries og - his defence is as bad as his brothers and his place kicking is poor.

Wallace like the rest of ulster team lacking confidence and defence is dire.

Hmm looks like ROG is incumbent due to lack of competition :eek:

Agree with most of that, except the bit about Manning. Most his games for Munster have been beside O'Leary, the worst scrumhalf in the Magners League (go on, try and think of a worse one). O'Leary made everyone, Halstead, Murphy, Payne etc look poor. Manning has had a few MOTM already, against Ospreys last year, Viadana this year and was MOTM for Con at the weekend. He is small, which is the only real worry I have about him.

Santa Claus

Luckycharm wrote: »

Dunne is average he was dreadful for leinster when he played for them and is a bit of journeyman.

In Dunnes defence he was plauged with injury during his first stint at leinster. He then went to Harlequins were he held number 10 spot and they won the Parker Pen that season (largely thanks to his boot).
Following season they were relegated and he went to Bath but was battling with Olly Barkley for the number 10 spot and then when he returned to leinster Dr Phil was securely in the 10 spot and he was given a few crumbs in ML games etc, so the journeyman tag is a bit unfair seeing as they're all top teams he has signed for.

Getting proper game time at Connacht will show what this guy is capable of (or not as the case may be but he looks very impressive so far).

kermitdfrog

If you were playing premiership rugby week in week out an A cap for ireland is a bit of cop out, players like him should have blooded in tours to Argentina and Japan. Geraghty could have been our backup out half for the world cup.

I do think that A caps are important but when better oppertunities were available to bring him into the Irish setup, they should have been used. With A caps for Humphries, Sexton, Manning etc

As much as EOS has made mistakes, Geraghty wasn't one of them. It's not like he'd been playing GP for years and we've ignored him. Was good in the middle and second half of the 06/07 season, but the Nov int's would have been too soon and he hadn't been that impressive. Did well up to the 6N, and was picked by England, and has said all along he wanted to play for England. When exactly was the opportunity for Ireland to pick him? Any earlier than that 6N, it would have an A cap AT MOST, he hadn't been any more impressive than Manning etc at that stage, and Wallace had played well for Ireland and Ulster. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but don't let recent events and Geraghty's form THIS season colour your viewpoint. EOS is many, many things, and has made many,many mistakes, but that doesn't mean EVERY lost opportunity was/is his fault.


Also, "If you were playing premiership rugby week in week out an A cap for ireland is a bit of cop out" makes no sense - because yo are playing GP you must be good? Don't let the Sky Sports hype fool you, or underestimate the players playing for the provinces.

il gatto

Dunne is on a loser while he's at Connacht I fear. I'm suprised Duffy got a ticket to France really. It's a pity that good players are being ignored because they're playing at the underfunded province. With ROG at Munster and Comptepomi at Leinster, Dunne will have to sit tight here in the west.
I think Paddy Wallace is a very good player. His kicking game isn't up to ROG's standard, but he's creative playing with the ball in hand. His defence could be worked on. He's got enough years left to prove himself. Obviously his confidence is in the sh1tter at the moment. Who'd blame him? As it stands, he's our best No.10 after ROG.

zAbbo

kermitdfrog wrote: »

As much as EOS has made mistakes, Geraghty wasn't one of them.

Maybe I have this wrong, but was Geraghty put off Ireland and EOS due to the treatment of other Irish GP players like Bob Casey?

LeeroyJones

Geraghty was born, reared and educated in England. His parents are Irish.
Not getting him wasn't a failure on our part, if he had played for Ireland it would have been a failure on the RFU's part however IMO.

as for the likes of Bob Casey, He was born, reared and educated In Ireland, he just moved over to England to further his rugby career-no reason why he shouldn't be in the Ireland squad!

Timothy Bryce

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Geraghty was born, reared and educated in England. His parents are Irish.
Not getting him wasn't a failure on our part, if he had played for Ireland it would have been a failure on the RFU's part however IMO.

as for the likes of Bob Casey, He was born, reared and educated In Ireland, he just moved over to England to further his rugby career-no reason why he shouldn't be in the Ireland squad!

Bob Casey - by far the best lock in the GP....much more quality a player than O'Kelly and the way O'Callaghan is playing I don't see why he shouldn't get a look in

dc69

il gatto wrote: »

I think Paddy Wallace is a very good player. His kicking game isn't up to ROG's standard, but he's creative playing with the ball in hand. His defence could be worked on. He's got enough years left to prove himself. Obviously his confidence is in the sh1tter at the moment. Who'd blame him? As it stands, he's our best No.10 after ROG.

i beg to differ,i rate sexton as a 10 much more than wallace,wallace is a centre anyway,he shouldnt even be playing 10

Amazotheamazing

dc69 wrote: »

i beg to differ,i rate sexton as a 10 much more than wallace,wallace is a centre anyway,he shouldnt even be playing 10

Tbh, guys like Wallace and Dunne are guys who got screwed over by the professional game. Wallace is too light to a centre, though that's he's best position and Dunne is too small to be an outhalf, though he is very talented. Before professionalism, they would have been ok becuase they would have had the skill levels needed to compensate for their small stature, but the pro game is making impossible for small skillful guys to play in the backs, with the obvious exception of scrumhalf.

Snickers Man

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

there's a big difference between having Hernandez and Sexton playing inside!

Well that's true. Sexton occasionally passes the ball.

Luckycharm

To come back to few points

Dunne - went to quins was generally a bench player behind Merthens and then Jarvis I think is his name. Went to bath was behind Barkely. Was poor when he played for Leinster, once even played against him (me very brief cameo at higher level) he was playing for belvo and was average that day too.

Wallace what age is he now 28? Has never secured a place for ulster was a dreadful fullback, not bad 12 and has only started to play at 10 where he has been playing for an out of form team but did get dropped last week, HIs defence is very suspect. Saw him play against for Ireland A against NZ a few years ago and he was brillant unfortunatley he never held down a position after then I think a move out of Humphries shadow would have helped him.

Manning true was playing outside TOL - how he got an extended contract I will never know. As I said before mom against Viadanna (come on!!) he doesn't threaten ball in hand, defence is average, his kicking from hand very poor if to play at top level - does he even bench for munster these days?

Sexton have seen him since his school boy days he does have alot of potential - more gametime and he will improve and suprisingly for an Irish 10 he can tackle.

Geraghty - don't rate him as a 10 his kicking is poor from hand and ground. As someone else said he played all the grades for England so not surprised at choice. He played against Ireland A last year behind an english pack that murdered the irish one and he was dreadful. I think he would make a good 12 though - good defence, good runner.

Bob casey - maybe none of you remember his last game for Ireland it was the one where we got Hosed in Twickers game was over in 25mins. He is OK hits every 3rd ruck but not the most mobile of 2nd rows.
If anyone wants examples of players in GP getting over rated just think of Conor O Shea the most overrated fullback ever to play for Ireland - consistently was voted best 15 in GP or turnstyles murphy as well.

Amazotheamazing

Luckycharm wrote: »

Manning true was playing outside TOL - how he got an extended contract I will never know. As I said before mom against Viadanna (come on!!) he doesn't threaten ball in hand, defence is average, his kicking from hand very poor if to play at top level - does he even bench for munster these days?

No, he's playing for Cork Con, and imo, he's better off getting games in the AIL than benching in ML. The Viadana thing was tongue in cheek, but he was also MOTM against the Ospreys last year in Thomond. He certainly has ability, it's consistency he lacks. I'm not touting him for Ireland mind you, but I'd like to see play behind a good pack and a competent scrumhalf before writing him off.

I disagree in your assessment of his abilities, think he has the skill set to play HEC level rugby.

Stev_o

Luckycharm wrote: »

Bob casey - maybe none of you remember his last game for Ireland it was the one where we got Hosed in Twickers game was over in 25mins. He is OK hits every 3rd ruck but not the most mobile of 2nd rows.
If anyone wants examples of players in GP getting over rated just think of Conor O Shea the most overrated fullback ever to play for Ireland - consistently was voted best 15 in GP or turnstyles murphy as well.

Yeah but that was a long time ago and in the context of Ireland looking for leaders and very good line out man this your man just look at the London Irish stats to see 98% won from their own lineouts. Better then most of the 2nd rows we have at the moment.


Anyone think POC might not play in 6N? Back injury is pretty serious and for a second row its the worse you can get and even if he does get back chances is he wont be in form and all that

dc69

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Tbh, guys like Wallace and Dunne are guys who got screwed over by the professional game. Wallace is too light to a centre, though that's he's best position and Dunne is too small to be an outhalf

I dont buy that for a second,paddy wallace has nothing to do all day expecpt train and lift weights,their is no reason that by next year he is over a stone heavier in muscle,he is also very young,if anything the profesional status the game now has would make it easier for wallace to develop his skills and gain alot of muscle.about dunne,i dont know how small he is,if he is too small he is too small.

Amazotheamazing

dc69 wrote: »

I dont buy that for a second,paddy wallace has nothing to do all day expecpt train and lift weights,their is no reason that by next year he is over a stone heavier in muscle,he is also very young,if anything the profesional status the game now has would make it easier for wallace to develop his skills and gain alot of muscle.about dunne,i dont know how small he is,if he is too small he is too small.

I'm not an expert in this area, but afaik, the main strength gains by rugby players happen in the preseason, the regular season training is to recovery and to keep at a certain level. Therefore, it's only a small window of time where a player can bulk up. Also, certain players simply lack the frame to bulk up, Wallace would have to sacrifice mobility and speed if he wanted to get much bigger, again, only afaik.

kermitdfrog

Bob Casey - by far the best lock in the GP....much more quality a player than O'Kelly and the way O'Callaghan is playing I don't see why he shouldn't get a look in

He's not even the best lock at his club. Another case of a player being made out to be more than he is because he isn't picked.

Stev_o wrote: »

Yeah but that was a long time ago and in the context of Ireland looking for leaders and very good line out man this your man just look at the London Irish stats to see 98% won from their own lineouts. Better then most of the 2nd rows we have at the moment.

Check the stats again, and see which player has been winning the vast majority of those lineouts. It's not Casey, it's Kennedy.

And better than most? He's not better than MOK on current forn, DOC and POC at their best are better, Cullen was better than him when both played GP, even MOD has played better at HEC level.