House extension - The right process?

armstrbr

Hello all, just about to embark on the whole process of having an extension done on my house (approx 600ft2) and would appreciate if I could get some details on the correct and safest way to go about the whole process.

I'm not looking to self build or purchase the materials myself as I just wouldn't have the time.

My rough idea of the process is as follows, I'd appreciate any advise on the areas identified and help filling in the gaps. I've been through allot of the other posts but still find myself unsure. Well here goes...........

1. Get an architect - sketches, pick design, planning drawings and apply for
planning. Can this be done for a fixed fee? am I better of using a architect
technician or draughtsman?
2. What level of drawings are required to go out for quote?
3. Construction drawings? Who does these - the architect? an engineer.
4. Select the builder, on cost?, schedule? how about recommendations do
builders provide if asked?
5. Contract with builder? is there a standard format laying out conditions, fee
structure etc..
6. Should I get a separate engineer to oversee the builder?

This is only a start, I'd like to build up a complete picture if I can and hopefully put it together for future use on this forum.

Here's hoping I get some info

Regards

Mellor

armstrbr wrote: »

1. Get an architect - sketches, pick design, planning drawings and apply for
planning. Can this be done for a fixed fee? am I better of using a architect
technician or draughtsman?

It could be done for either a fixed fee or a % percentage of build cost, or an hourly rate. This would be discussed before hand with architect or technician etc.
For planning stage, you can use anyone to prepare the plans. This post, and the whole thread, has some info on it. It also highlights the different levels of design in an extension. Modern (some shown in that thread), or traditional (blend seamless with existing.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54575661&postcount=5

As for better with an architect or a technician. It depends, if you want a modern complicated designed extension, an architect may be beter. If you know what you want now, or are looking for an extension to match existing then a technician will provide trhe same service (imo they would also be more effcient in this area, and so cost less)

2. What level of drawings are required to go out for quote?
3. Construction drawings? Who does these - the architect? an engineer.

An extension is very standard so a builder will give a quote based on very little detail in the drawings, the planning drawings will more than cover.
As for construction drawings, a technician normally produces construction drawings, architect or engineer might depending on situation. But as I said, an extension is standard, any builder that requires construction drawings for an extension isn't worth hiring.

I suppose an exception to this might be a none standard extension, like something you might see on grand designs with a complicated structural layout

4. Select the builder, on cost?, schedule? how about recommendations do
builders provide if asked?

Well, normally select on cost. But depending on your situation time might be a greater asset and might become the main concern.
As for references, you have every right to ask to see some work before hiring. He doesn't "have" to provide it, but you don't have to employ him. So its in his best interest to.

5. Contract with builder? is there a standard format laying out conditions, fee
structure etc..

There are standard contracts, these may or may not be used for small works.

6. Should I get a separate engineer to oversee the builder?

You may wish to keep the architect on board for the whole project. This will obviously cost more. For extensions alot of people take it to planning stage with architect or technician, then involve an engineer to sign off on the work. This reduces cost as you are employing people for less time. BUT this should be arranged before building starts. As you don't want to be in a situation where you are half built and can get someone to certify/sign off.
Its worth mentioning I suppose that signing off isn't always required and people often don't look for that service. Say where the bank isn't involved or not looking for certs, or you aren't selling soon. But that is approaching legal advice and nobody here should tell you what to do, only what the options are.

smashey

What Mellor said.

armstrbr

Thanks Mellor,

The extension I'm planning is nothing out of the ordinary so I'm guessing that a technician is the best option in terms of cost plus the fact that a technician could then turn around and produce construction drawings if necessary.

Architects seem to be pretty easy to locate . locals papers, yellow pages etc, I'm new to the area I'm living in so recommendations are thin on the ground, where or what is the best source of info for getting hold of a technician?

I'll definitely be looking for references

I would like the comfort of a contract, can someone provide a link where I may get a hold of a standard

Reading prosperous dave's malicious builder thread I'll be definitely getting an engineer on board.

Again thanks for the reply

sinnerboy

Employ an architect ( or technician ) from start to finish . Get the works "signed off " (Ask your solicitor how a future sale ( or future application to re mortgage ) will be affected

1. with or
2. without this.

Go to the on line planning search of your local authority and look at extension designs . you are only going to build this once - are you sure you don't want something special . You may see something in drawings lodged on line to change your mind about that . you may find your architect this way too .

Get the blue form of contract from the RIAI (number is in the book ) . Use no other

Get the architect ( or technician ) to produce the most detailed possible drawings and spec possible even for the most simple works . DO NOT build off planning drawings - this is not appropriate . They are too open to interpretation for construction purposes.

Get the architect ( or technician ) to draft an invitation to tender letter to look for insurances, works programme , specify payment terms , l+a damages , defects liability period , specify PC allowances (including builders discount ) . If you don't understand all this - go back to line 1 of this post and take that advice.

Get him/her to assemble a panel of tendering contractors and to assess the tenders returned and prepare a tender report recommending the contractor to select and reasons why .

Spend all the time you have now to look at finishes , lighting , fittings etc and firm up your ideas before the works start . Don't under estimate how time consuming this process is . Don't f*** about with this during the works you WILL delay them if you do and generate additional costs. Avoid changing your mind during the works but if you feel you must , be clear in your instructions via the architect , not direct to builder , and ask architect to manage the cost implications arising .

One area it is difficult to firm up before works start is electrics . Ask the architect to get the builder to identity when first fix is completed and plastering is not started . Ask for power points , light switches , thermostats , tv points , radiators etc to be chalkmarked . You can readily add subtract and relocate with (relative ) ease at this stage without too much grief for anyone Don't wait for decoration to start .........

Don't look to "save" on decoration , because you won't - leave that to the contractor . Get your own decorator in and if the end result is poor , he will point to the plasterer who will point to the electrician who will point back to the decorator ....... . Much easier to say to the contractor - "fix that" - and he has to listen to all that crap not you .

Mellor

armstrbr wrote: »

Architects seem to be pretty easy to locate . locals papers, yellow pages etc, I'm new to the area I'm living in so recommendations are thin on the ground, where or what is the best source of info for getting hold of a technician?

As sinnerboy said the planning website is a good place to start, because you have access to who prepared plans etc.
Spend a bit of time there and you should find out a few names of people working in the area. Watch out for things like applications invalidated, and the reasons why. But bare in mind that this happens to everyone from time to time, so as long as it wasn't happening every application its not an issue

sinnerboy wrote: »

Get the architect ( or technician ) to produce the most detailed possible drawings and spec possible even for the most simple works . DO NOT build off planning drawings - this is not appropriate . They are too open to interpretation for construction purposes.

An architect or technician worth his salt should be doing this anyway. Any application i'vethe done I've always drawn to a standard level of detail for the scale to be used. It makes the job easier for everyone, and it actually takes little extra effort or time.
But that said I was asked to look over a application prepared for a family member, and the standard was shocking. I've nothing against hand drawn plans, but because of the extra work involved they tend to be minimum detail.

sinnerboy

Mellor wrote: »

An architect or technician worth his salt should be doing this anyway. Any application i'vethe done I've always drawn to a standard level of detail for the scale to be used. It makes the job easier for everyone, and it actually takes little extra effort or time.

Salt - ready salted or add your own

Extent of internal strip out ( wall / ceiling plaster , floor finishes , existing fittings ( storage and sanitary ) , existing m+e services wouldn't and shouldn't be the the subject of a PP , but would affect works price .

Premature spec , or overly specific specification at PP can give rise to certification dificulties ( other threads refer i.e. "do I have to use brick / real stone / natural slate / timber windows etc ..... if my PP drawings say so ) .
Better to leave spec as vague as possible so that price / quality / aestetic considerations are not tied down later

PP is no place to lay down PC sums for fit out - major € implications during build

But where I differ most from you on this one Mellor is that the OP should not be advised to get planning and then off he goes without professional help .

Fine if he is an experienced builder or ( as he says he has not ) lots of time to invlove himself in the works .

My over arching point is - get good professional help from start to finish , preferably with same guy/girl

Mellor

Regarding written spec, I agree. I only the minimun should be written on drawings for PP. No point putting additional info for the reasons you highlighted.
My comment about detail was refering to drawings only. There is a max amount of info that should be shown on a 1:50 or 1:100 drawing. Some plans go into the council with the minimum, and then these are used for building, there is huge margin for error here. The difference proper full dimensioning makes is huge. But I wasn't suggesting everything to be drawn, it has to be relevent.

But where I differ most from you on this one Mellor is that the OP should not be advised to get planning and then off he goes without professional help .

Fine if he is an experienced builder or ( as he says he has not ) lots of time to invlove himself in the works .

My over arching point is - get good professional help from start to finish , preferably with same guy/girl

You've taken me up a bit wrong, I wasn't advising the OP what to do, only what his options are. I tried to include all or at least most routes.
Having professional help from start to finish is the best option in terms of peace of mind and quailty of work, but it is also the most expensive. For different people the best option may be another route. I don't know what situation the OP is in, I tried to keep it open for him to choose.

From his reply regarding a contract and signing off, I would hazard a guess that having professional help from start to finish is best in his case.

sydthebeat

Mellor wrote: »

Regarding written spec, I agree. I only the minimun should be written on drawings for PP. No point putting additional info for the reasons you highlighted.
My comment about detail was refering to drawings only. There is a max amount of info that should be shown on a 1:50 or 1:100 drawing. Some plans go into the council with the minimum, and then these are used for building, there is huge margin for error here. The difference proper full dimensioning makes is huge. But I wasn't suggesting everything to be drawn, it has to be relevent.


You've taken me up a bit wrong, I wasn't advising the OP what to do, only what his options are. I tried to include all or at least most routes.
Having professional help from start to finish is the best option in terms of peace of mind and quailty of work, but it is also the most expensive. For different people the best option may be another route. I don't know what situation the OP is in, I tried to keep it open for him to choose.

From his reply regarding a contract and signing off, I would hazard a guess that having professional help from start to finish is best in his case.

we have, only this year, changed our office policy from giving detailed planning drawings to clients at planning stage (included wall construction, trussed roof etc) to just giving them bare outline drawings at planning stage. This was decided mainly because clients were using these plans and building by 'direct labour' without any fore thought into the build. This was leading to myriad of problems, clients not understanding that the drawing they had was a 'planning' drawing and not a 'construction' drawing... and not understanding that, as the build was 'direct labour', they were responsible for the project management and thus any resolution of problems was coming from their own pockets. So we took the decision not to give them any construction information at all at planning stage... that these drawings are clearly 'design' drawings and not construction drawings. Best thing we've ever done. Clients now are fully aware that if they want to build they need to get 'construction' drawings generated.... the whole process is a lot more unambiguous.

I think the problem arose from the emergence of 'direct labour' as a contract choice. Initially most of our designs were constructed by registered contractors, who had no problem reading drawings and knowing where amendments needed to be made. Now 'direct labour' seems to be the method of choice, and clients with no clue of construction think they can project manage a build..... stupidity...

Mellor

I'd agree there direct labour can cause alot of problems, esp when it comes to setting out etc. These problems often don't get noticed until its too late.
I can see the advantages you list for using the minimum and having a separate planning and construction issue. For something like a new dwelling this would be fine.

But for an extension, it would be my preference to work out everything prior to planning. Extensions are often in done as small jobs, where the client, a friend or a family member are building. So they look for planning only from someone. If a planning package was drawn to bare outline, the builder often attempts to build off this.
Even where you intend to issue a construction issue to follow up, i've seen lads rush ahead of the drawings and getting stuck.
Of course the above only applies to small works.

Charlie-Bravo

armstrbr wrote: »

Hello all, just about to embark on the whole process of having an extension done on my house (approx 600ft2)

All I say is be prepared to spend between €75k and 150k (depending on spec!)

hardworker

The cost of your building, can vary greatly depending on many factors,

(1) Location (in a city, labour and materials more expensive)
(2) Site acessability (does everything have to be wheel barrowed down a 1m wide lane or footpath etc)
(3) Building design and spec. (Dont let your architect or designer talk you into a design you dont properly understand) Small "features" can cost thousands. Some high spec buildings can be unquanifable with regards to cost and can lead to huge cost over-runs.

A Client, with a clear goal in mind, which can be clearly explained to the contractors and is not making last minute changes during the construction stage, will stick to his/her budget.

A guide line per/SQft is from E130 to E155. This should well cover minor works to the existing structure, such as new opes, repaired reveals etc. These are rough guide lines for extensions and will seem very high in comparision to a new build project.

I hope this has been of some help.

Kashkai

All excellent advice above but if I had the nerve (which I don't) to go through the building process again, I'd stick with an engineer from start to finish. The architects I spoke to (7 of them) and the one I eventually picked sounded great in theory but they ignored our wishes and produced unworkable plans that might have looked great on paper (to them) but wouldn't have suited our growing family, e.g

one massive open plan living area circa 600 sq feet incorporating kitchen, dining and living area. All well and good except what happens when you want to watch a movie in peace and the kids bring their 20 friends over and they're all running around the one and only living space screaming their adorable heads off.

How the hell do you keep such a large open space heated?

When I ask for 5 bedrooms, why consistenly give me 3/4 (I've 4 kids so a room each isn't too much to ask when I'm going through the hassle of building)

Dictating that 12ft x 12ft was big enough for a master bedroom and that was to include wardrobes and no ensuite.

After 6 months of to-ing and fro-ing with his rubbish plans, I told him to take a hike but he wouldn't go away. In the end (and as we badly needed the extra living space with twins on the way), I sat down and using my leaving cert technical drawing skills, drafted a plan of what we wanted. The plank, sorry architect, then copied my drawing verbatim and submitted it for planning. He got half his fee at this stage and then buggered off, despite us having a signed contract for him to over see the build to the end.

We then engaged a builder who had been recommended by 2 locals. Perhaps it was the absence of qualified supervision for a number of months but he messed us around mercilessly, did shoddy work, disappeared for weeks on end etc, until I found an engineer who kicked his arse and saved ours into the bargain.

So my advice if you want it, is forget engaging an architect as they are airy fairy designers who will try to impose their ideas on you and who are usually deaf to your wishes (I'm basing this on the 7 architects I spoke to and not just on the plank we engaged). The engineer will also have the know how as to what will work in the real world as opposed to what looks good on paper. In fact a lot of architects will probably engage the services of an engineer to check certain aspects of the build so you'll end up paying 2 sets of fees.

Best of luck with the build and don't get too pally with the builder as they see this as a sign of weakness (the number of times my pregnant wife made those sw!ne dinner and cups of tea while they were doing shoddy work still p!sses me off). Do crack the whip to remind them who's paying the bills. And in the current climate, they might not be so choosey as to what jobs they take on and they'll want people like you to recommend them for further work.

janmc

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

forget engaging an architect as they are airy fairy designers who will try to impose their ideas on you and who are usually deaf to your wishes (I'm basing this on the 7 architects I spoke to and not just on the plank we engaged).

I know you had a bad experience with your architect, but you can't tar all architects with the same brush.

janmc

armstrbr, I'd add a step to the start of your process.

1. Write out a list of what you want.

It might sound stupid, but most people who want an extension aren't quite sure what they want. They have a vague idea about needing more room, but they haven't thought it through. If you're living with a partner, get them to write a list separately, and then compare it.

This list can include the smallest, strangest things like that you want somewhere to store your ironing board in the kitchen, or that you want a kitchen table that can seat 8 people, or you want somewhere to hide a clothesline or whatever! Don't worry about how disjointed it might seem - by making the list, the architect/technician/draughtsman has some requirements that will suggest how they should layout the space.

Builderfromhell

I have worked with many Architects who are determined to make a design statement with their client's project and feel somewhat superior to their clients. I have also worked with excellent Architects (usually older) who are very practical and listen intensely to their clients and consult with me (builder) so as to find solutions to problems that arise. I have also worked with Engineer's who insist I do things which are totally unneccessary and costly for client. Also, Engineer's who ask me to do things which are totally impractical or impossible.
Point is there are good and bad in all professions.
Getting back to original poster, I would employ an architect or experienced Architectural Technician to design and oversee work. Check out there recent work and call most recent clients.
As a builder, I can assure you it is very easy to cut corners and/or do sub standard work without anyone knowing. You need a professional to keep things in check. Many 'Builders' do not themselves know how to build properly.

Kashkai

Keeping an open mind, yes I'd agree that there are good and bad in all professions and that we just got very, very unlucky with the architect and builder we took on. However, I did talk to 7 different architects who all supplied "design statements" that would have (A) been costly/impossible to build and (B) was not what we wanted nor would have suited our family circumstances (and this was despite me telling them exactly what we wanted, i.e. 5 bedrooms, large kitchen etc etc). They were all extremely arrogant and just wouldn't listen to what WE wanted.

Another poster has suggested drawing up a list of what you want from the extension. This is an excellent piece of advice because when you are about to embark on a very great deal of disruption to your home and which will cost you a small fortune to boot, you'll want to get it right first time. Even if you think you know what you want from the layout and fittings, step back and talk to family, friends etc who will give you an independent 3rd party opinion and you might find that they have worthwhile suggestions that never occured to you. For example, we switched the planned kitchen and playroom around as we wanted the kitchen overlooking the back garden (1/2 acre) so we could see what the kids were doing. The architect had originally positioned the kitchen so it was at the side of the house looking at a hedge. With the kitchen re-positioned at the back of the house, we then added on a sunroom off the kitchen that led into the garden. This was an afterthought suggested by my brother as he did something similar. It has turned out that this afterthought is the room we now mostly use as its just off the kitchen and it has a great view of our back garden so we can see what the kids are up to. Its also important to get the small things like the position of plugs, lights and light switches correct as its costly to move them later.


Don't rush into the project. Take time to think it through, get an engineer on board and then thoroughly check out the credentials of the proposed builder. They're not all bad. We have since come across builders who do great work (one guy who says he never turns down work no matter how small the job, levelled our garden, topsoiled and seeded it (1 acre in total), put in new driveway (about 150ft in length) and kerbs and did a path around the house (again over 200ft) for 7,000 all in just a week) and don't charge the earth.

chochoss

Hi
We have a very old house (100) yrs old in Co. Kilkenny, walls are about a foot thick pure concrete and house is extremely cold in winter when no heating on. A small extension was added in 2007 before we purchased. Now I want to extend kitchen out from back door and around side to have square room - need to knock part of 2 walls down, area prob under 40sq which includes previous extn. I have my mood board done, I know exactly what way I want the area to look like, but would like help from either architect or SE to see options as they are the professionals. Just questioning the need for which one? Have 3 builders to tender too having seen previous jobs & recommendations from other clients.

Would like to start process soon, I am working locally so will always be checking progress myself, can get some material at cost price through work place also. I feel I am in a good position to start but I just do not know the first thing that I should do? Do I need to have 2k to pay architect immediately ? I have loan organised but not drawn down yet - 22k cover it hopefully with3k cont.

Any help / ideas / suggestions would be most helpful & very much appreciated.
I don't want to go to Tradesman on line.

Mellor

The above thread is 5 years old, might be worth starting a new one for your issues.
A few thoughts...

chochoss wrote: »

Hi
We have a very old house (100) yrs old in Co. Kilkenny, walls are about a foot thick pure concrete and house is extremely cold in winter when no heating on.

Are you sure it’s concrete?
I was in used 100 years ago, but it wasn’t exactly common on a domestic level. That’s not to say it’s impossible.
Uninsulated walls, even 1 foot think, are always going to be cold in winter.

A small extension was added in 2007 before we purchased. Now I want to extend kitchen out from back door and around side to have square room - need to knock part of 2 walls down, area prob under 40sq which includes previous extn.

"Prob under" is a bit vague. You should really confirm for certain at this stage. No point wasting energy going down the wrong path.

I have my mood board done, I know exactly what way I want the area to look like, but would like help from either architect or SE to see options as they are the professionals. Just questioning the need for which one? Have 3 builders to tender too having seen previous jobs & recommendations from other clients.

To realized your design, you need an architect or an architectural technologist.

If their are majopr structural elements required, then you need a SE. But that doesn't sound like its the case.

Would like to start process soon, I am working locally so will always be checking progress myself, can get some material at cost price through work place also. I feel I am in a good position to start but I just do not know the first thing that I should do? Do I need to have 2k to pay architect immediately ? I have loan organised but not drawn down yet - 22k cover it hopefully with3k cont.

Depending on the level of service you are after. 2k might not cover the professional fees. But if you just want guidence it will.
Request a fee and service breakdown along with an initial quote.
Regardless, you won't have to pay the money up front.

I'm a little bit removed from current irish construction costs. $22k sounds to be like you are dreaming, I could be way off.